Mega-Salamence: considering a quick ban (Don't ask for the thread to be closed!)

[JungleB]

So it's pretty obvious that this thing is broken, immense bulk and power, along with few reliable checks and counters. I don't really have too much to contribute, so I think I'll just post something that is not overly serious, but still expresses my opinions on this thing pretty well.

Parody incoming!

I don't want a lot to be banned
There is just one broken thing
I don't care about Greninga
Not as broken as this thing
I just want you out of OU
More broken then sturdy shed
Make this ban right now
All I want to be banned is...
You!

I don't want a lot to be banned
This just one broken thing
I don't care about Greninga
Not as broken as this thing
I don't even like to ban things
But this is the big exception
Kangaskan seems bad compared
To this bulky sweeping mega
I just want you out of OU
More broken then sturdy shed
Make this ban right now
All I want to be banned is you!

Oh I feel like a hypocrite
Wanting this gone, but this back now

Then I realize how borked it is
I don't wanna keep on waiting
For this thing to be quick-banned
I won't make a big hassle
We all know it will get banned soon
I won't even say it's counters
They exist but still can struggle
'Cause I just want you out of OU
Back to ubers like old times
What more can I say?
All I want to be banned is you!

All the players saying
Bulkier than Machamp's muscles
And the sound of "counters" fainting fills the air
And everyone is saying
I feel this ban is coming
Council won't you bring this thing back up to ubers
Won't you please ban this crazy mega
Oh, I don't want a lot to be banned
This is all I'm asking for
I just wanna see this thing in ubers
Outclassed by mega Rayquaza
Oh I just want you out of OU
More broken than sturdy shed
Make this ban right now
Baby, all I want to be banned is...
Yooouuuu!

All I want to be banned is yooouuu, baby!
All I want to be banned is yooouuu, baby!
All I want to be banned is yooouuu, baby...

Note: This wasn't meant to be super serious, and a lot of what I said was exaggerations. Please don't take this too seriously.

I think that Mega Salamance is unhealthy for the metagame, as it forces players to run pokemon simply to beat it. Even with those pokemon, it is still capable of having a different set you aren't prepared for, or just overpowering you. That in a nutshell, is why I want this thing to be banned.

 

[TaBuu]

quickban? lol sure it is.​

• mega mence's offensive variants (all out offense, sub+dd, special, bulky, etc) are extremely powerful thanks to mega mence's stat arrangements. 95/130/90 defense stats are capable of stomaching certain super-effective moves even with minimal investment which only serve as testament to mega mence's durability as an offensive pokemon. 145/120/120 offense stats in conjunction with mega mence's diverse enough movepool, make it a single pokemon nightmare.
  
  
• simply stated, mega mence's unpredictability and difficulty in checking/countering place immense strains on the oras ou metagame. what people don't seem to understand is that if mega mence were to stay in ou, there would be no growth in the metagame because the metagame is mega mence. whatever trend mega mence decides to take, that's the entire direction that the oras ou metagame will take as well. people claim that when obscure pokemon are used in ou to answer one pokemon, it can be seen as healthy because it promotes diversity. the logic's flaw stems from the reality, which is that obscure pokemon are obscure for a reason. their qualities do not make them ou worthy, rather they are just necessary niche pokemon.

 

[Punchshroom]

I can agree to your first point to an extent. I haven't played ORAS OU since the game was released so I'm not too sure of how mega mence has evolved since the pre-release ORAS OU tier and how often the sets are seen. Obviously mega mence leads to centralization, I'm not disputing that. My point is it causes no more centralization than other huge threats.

Mega Salamence is one of the bulkiest setup sweepers we have ever seen and has reliable recovery, its speed for a Dragon Dancer is absurdly high such that conventional Scarfers and even weather sweepers cannot revenge kill it, and it has one of the best offensive STABs in the game, meaning Mega Mence very easily attains powerful neutral coverage with just 2 moves, leaving it free to run other attacks which only make it even trickier to respond to. No other setup sweeper comes equipped with all of these advantages at once, and Mega Mence far exceeds the standards of pretty much any OU metagame we've seen thus far.

Like any threat, if your team doesn't have a counter for it you lose, that's reality. If you can't damage more than ferrothorn can heal with leech seed you lose, and it's not necessarily because you had no counter for it, but rather because you let your counter die. I am a firm believer that you can win matches based on skill and how you manage your pokemon during a battle. The reason I'm typically skeptical about bans like this is because i feel as though if you force your opponent to lose their, in this case mega mence counter, then you can steamroll them and they can just say it's OP and can't be beaten. Of course thats not everyone, and it may not be a majority, but that's my experience. Even if the pokemon has only 2 counters it wouldn't lead to any more centralization than I've seen before in the x and y meta. Almost every game i would see the same pokemon, and still do see those same pokemon almost every game.

One of the biggest problems with Mega Mence is that there are hardly any counters that can reliably respond to the various Mega Mence sets, in a rather similiar vein to Mega Lucario in that a single crucial slip up can spell massive trouble for virtually any kind of team, regardless of their structure. Even if you run multiple responses on your team in an effort to combat both MegaMence sets, guessing its set incorrectly can still very well put you on the backfoot. This makes the risk-reward factor greatly favor Mega Mence in terms of success, meaning that even a skilful player can find themselves losing to, if not getting heavily crippled by Mega Mence simply because they have made one uneducated guess; in most cases, even if the players do make the right play, Mega Mence would almost always contribute to the user's victory.

As for saying you guys are jumping the gun, i didn't mean that he isn't broken or that you guys are crying over it, it's just my opinion that there are more counters if you guys tailor pokemon to specific needs. Yes that's centralization and yes that will always happen no matter the number of bans.

If you've seen some of the 'counters' to Mega Mence posted above & in previous pages, you'd know that it's not that people aren't trying to find counters to Mega Mence; it's the cost of doing so. These Pokemon usually have very little purpose outside of walling Mega Salamence and take up valuable team space that can be used for responding to other threats, although it would most likely result in simply facing other teams that also have MegaMence + MegaMence partners + MegaMence counters since there is very little reason to deviate from this formula if it yields consistent success; MegaMence is just that good, and thus it becomes extremely centralizing and results in the whole metagame revolving around how to use it, how to support it, how to stop it, etc.... Several people have echoed their sentiments on comparing MegaMence to the likes of OU Rayquaza or Kyogre in terms of centralization which, to be frank, aren't exactly unfounded.

Also to this point, no pokemon can counter every set, you have to counter the most common set. To prove that, make a team now and use it in 2 months. That team will get, msot likely, crushed. It's because even with centralization there is a pendulum act where one set gets played the most and another will eventually be better because more people counter the more common set.

I don't know about you, but during the Mega Lucario era, I found myself getting cornered by Mega Luke numerous times despite having a Scarfed Chandelure, supposedly the best Mega Luke check, on my team. I couldn't wall it reliably because its most common sets have vastly different counters, meaning one wrong guess on its set and I can get my team blown apart; decisions like that can almost be summed up to luck, which as you've might've guessed isn't a word we take too kindly on the competitive scene. It's a very similiar deal in the case of MegaMence.

My noivern is run with slight bulk. The reason i don't tell people sets on here is because whenever i do people call them unviable even though they work near flawlessly for me. Also, i am a firm believer in if you want the best results, build your own sets. Using other peoples sets is another thing that leads to over centralization for instance rotom. For awhile the most common set was some random speed because a popular worlds player used that to outspeed threats. One he released the build that exact speed rotom was run and all it led to was less bulky rotoms that still speed tied. That is why i encourage making your own sets.

Also, Smogon spreads aren't necessarily meant to be followed to the tee, they merely provide guidelines as to why this move/item/EV spread is run over that (some helpful analyses even provide alternative spreads to the user's leisure). By all means make your own sets if they work out for you, though you'd need good reasons to deviate from the standard since there is the possibility that your custom set can be done better by something else. I also wouldn't call the use of a new EV spread on a Pokemon 'centralization' rather than 'meta development'.

 

[SpencyJ]

Mega Salamence is one of the bulkiest setup sweepers we have ever seen and has reliable recovery, its speed for a Dragon Dancer is absurdly high such that conventional Scarfers and even weather sweepers cannot revenge kill it, and it has one of the best offensive STABs in the game, meaning Mega Mence very easily attains powerful neutral coverage with just 2 moves, leaving it free to run other attacks which only make it even trickier to respond to. No other setup sweeper comes equipped with all of these advantages at once, and Mega Mence far exceeds the standards of pretty much any OU metagame we've seen thus far.


One of the biggest problems with Mega Mence is that there are hardly any counters that can reliably respond to the various Mega Mence sets, in a rather similiar vein to Mega Lucario in that a single crucial slip up can spell massive trouble for virtually any kind of team, regardless of their structure. Even if you run multiple responses on your team in an effort to combat both MegaMence sets, guessing its set incorrectly can still very well put you on the backfoot. This makes the risk-reward factor greatly favor Mega Mence in terms of success, meaning that even a skilful player can find themselves losing to, if not getting heavily crippled by Mega Mence simply because they have made one uneducated guess; in most cases, even if the players do make the right play, Mega Mence would almost always contribute to the user's victory.


If you've seen some of the 'counters' to Mega Mence posted above & in previous pages, you'd know that it's not that people aren't trying to find counters to Mega Mence; it's the cost of doing so. These Pokemon usually have very little purpose outside of walling Mega Salamence and take up valuable team space that can be used for responding to other threats, although it would most likely result in simply facing other teams that also have MegaMence + MegaMence partners + MegaMence counters since there is very little reason to deviate from this formula if it yields consistent success; MegaMence is just that good, and thus it becomes extremely centralizing and results in the whole metagame revolving around how to use it, how to support it, how to stop it, etc.... Several people have echoed their sentiments on comparing MegaMence to the likes of OU Rayquaza or Kyogre in terms of centralization which, to be frank, aren't exactly unfounded.


I don't know about you, but during the Mega Lucario era, I found myself getting cornered by Mega Luke numerous times despite having a Scarfed Chandelure, supposedly the best Mega Luke check, on my team. I couldn't wall it reliably because its most common sets have vastly different counters, meaning one wrong guess on its set and I can get my team blown apart; decisions like that can almost be summed up to luck, which as you've might've guessed isn't a word we take too kindly on the competitive scene. It's a very similiar deal in the case of MegaMence.


Also, Smogon spreads aren't necessarily meant to be followed to the tee, they merely provide guidelines as to why this move/item/EV spread is run over that (some helpful analyses even provide alternative spreads to the user's leisure). By all means make your own sets if they work out for you, though you'd need good reasons to deviate from the standard since there is the possibility that your custom set can be done better by something else. I also wouldn't call the use of a new EV spread on a Pokemon 'centralization' rather than 'meta development'.

First point i agree completely. mega mence is very powerful and very reliable.

I get your point here, but i also think there is always a way more popular set that people will tailor their teams to so risk-reward for guessing its set won't be as bad as i think you imagine, but of course that's opinion not fact.

I agree that we will see an influx of mega mence counters, a very massive influx at first. Eventually i think that the meta will reach an equilibrium. When the game floods with counters to a certain pokemon, that pokemon will die out and along with it, its counters. Why run a salamence if every team countered it? Why run a salamence counter if no one is running salamence?

I'm not familiar with the "mega lucario era." I switch between playing singles and doubles so i must have been playing doubles during that time for the most part so i can't really understand the comparison.

I agree that smogon builds are guidelines, but i also think that not too many people understand that totally. I see a lot of copy and paste sets, which is helpful to some people especially to get a better handle on the game, but at the same time i feel like it is very limiting in the sense that a lot of people look to others for help in building teams or single pokemon in this game and when a large portion considers a set the best, the meta game has to respond to that specific build which i see as centralization.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

First point i agree completely. mega mence is very powerful and very reliable.

I get your point here, but i also think there is always a way more popular set that people will tailor their teams to so risk-reward for guessing its set won't be as bad as i think you imagine, but of course that's opinion not fact.

I agree that we will see an influx of mega mence counters, a very massive influx at first. Eventually i think that the meta will reach an equilibrium. When the game floods with counters to a certain pokemon, that pokemon will die out and along with it, its counters. Why run a salamence if every team countered it? Why run a salamence counter if no one is running salamence?

I'm not familiar with the "mega lucario era." I switch between playing singles and doubles so i must have been playing doubles during that time for the most part so i can't really understand the comparison.

I agree that smogon builds are guidelines, but i also think that not too many people understand that totally. I see a lot of copy and paste sets, which is helpful to some people especially to get a better handle on the game, but at the same time i feel like it is very limiting in the sense that a lot of people look to others for help in building teams or single pokemon in this game and when a large portion considers a set the best, the meta game has to respond to that specific build which i see as centralization.

What evidence do you have that A) an equilibrium will ever be formed (most meta games rely on equilibrium never forming due to the evolving strategies), and B) that this equilibrium will be a healthy meta?

We've had over a month of evidence that salamence is one of the most unhealthy things OU has seen in a while. Of course people would eventually get used to it, but "getting used to it" requires decently limited team building options and a drastic reduction of viable strategies, which is why it needs to go, and go as soon as possible

Edit: god I hate auto correct at 1 in the morning

 

[Punchshroom]

I agree that we will see an influx of mega mence counters, a very massive influx at first. Eventually i think that the meta will reach an equilibrium. When the game floods with counters to a certain pokemon, that pokemon will die out and along with it, its counters. Why run a salamence if every team countered it? Why run a salamence counter if no one is running salamence?

Considering the relative obscurity of "MegaMence hard counters" (they probably don't exist) and how good MegaMence is means that MegaMence will pretty much never stop seeing usage. The reward of running MegaMence is great since it only needs a few obstacles out of the way to get to work; the benefit of running MegaMence counters is...not so great because they don't respond well to more or less everything else in the tier. This bolded statement above, as well the the quoted statement below alone makes me believe you never truly experienced a meta where truly dominant threats ruled the metagame, and many players ran otherwise obscure countermeasures.

I'm not familiar with the "mega lucario era." I switch between playing singles and doubles so i must have been playing doubles during that time for the most part so i can't really understand the comparison.

Even the rise of Rocky Helmet Pokemon (such as Ferrothorn, Skarmory and Garchomp) never managed to curb the relative dominance of Mega Kangaskhan; teams simply worked around to weaken / get rid of the threats to make Mega Kangaskhan succeed and continue plowing through the rest of the tier, and occupies team space that can be used for more valuable team members. That meta never managed to reach an equilbrium (outside of Mega Kangaskhan's favor, mind you) until Kangaskhannite was removed from the meta. Don't even get me started on the Mega Gengar + Shed Shell shenanigans.

I agree that smogon builds are guidelines, but i also think that not too many people understand that totally. I see a lot of copy and paste sets, which is helpful to some people especially to get a better handle on the game, but at the same time i feel like it is very limiting in the sense that a lot of people look to others for help in building teams or single pokemon in this game and when a large portion considers a set the best, the meta game has to respond to that specific build which i see as centralization.

The fact that people c/p the sets is just how the way it is; most players don't go too deep in fulfilling their team's needs, so they usually start off using sets created by experienced players to get more experience themselves. Good custom spreads do pop up from time to time, provided they fulfill a specific niche that aren't replicated by existing sets / Pokemon.

 

[KaiReptilon]

Ok. before i talk about why MegaMence should be quick banned i want to ask a quick question. WHAT THE FUCK! was gamefreak on when they designed this monstrosity?? MegaMence is probably the most broken thing i've seen in pokemon for a long time. Not only is the access to Intimidate before MegaEvolving very good, the fact Mence obtains Aerilate means that it doesn't lose a very good ability when mega evolving. Not to mention Flying STAB is amazing. My biggest gripe with Salamence though is just how controlling it is in this metagame, if anything does counter it, the mon used for countering would be extremely niche, base 130 defence is freaking insane along with intimidate, making it able to set up on pretty much anything without ice moves. However Intimidate allows it to come in on stuff like Mega-Gallade and Mega-Lopunny live the ice punch because of intimidate and proceed to face roll everything on your team. My vote is a quickban as this, quite frankly, amazing Mega-Evolution needs it.

 

[Random Passerby]

First point i agree completely. mega mence is very powerful and very reliable.

I get your point here, but i also think there is always a way more popular set that people will tailor their teams to so risk-reward for guessing its set won't be as bad as i think you imagine, but of course that's opinion not fact.

I agree that we will see an influx of mega mence counters, a very massive influx at first. Eventually i think that the meta will reach an equilibrium. When the game floods with counters to a certain pokemon, that pokemon will die out and along with it, its counters. Why run a salamence if every team countered it? Why run a salamence counter if no one is running salamence?

I'm not familiar with the "mega lucario era." I switch between playing singles and doubles so i must have been playing doubles during that time for the most part so i can't really understand the comparison.

I agree that smogon builds are guidelines, but i also think that not too many people understand that totally. I see a lot of copy and paste sets, which is helpful to some people especially to get a better handle on the game, but at the same time i feel like it is very limiting in the sense that a lot of people look to others for help in building teams or single pokemon in this game and when a large portion considers a set the best, the meta game has to respond to that specific build which i see as centralization.

Let me respond to some of the points here:
1) Well, when you tailor your team to counter (or better check) a popular set on the Pokemon, you become weaker to a different set of the same Pokemon. Since you don't understand the Mega Lucario comparison, let's use Gen 4 Garchomp as an example. If you think that it is a Swords Dance set and switch in your physically wall, you get destroyed by Chain Chomp. However, if you switch in a Special wall, you risk being set-up on or outright destroyed by the Swords Dance set. The penalty of guessing wrongly is way too high and makes the game a matter of luck, which is :" Are you carrying the correct check to this Pokemon's set or not.".

2) The metagame will simply revolve around Mega Salamence if it is not banned. If there is an equilibrium, then it will be because the team structure will be Mega Mence + 2 x Mega Mence check + 2 x Mega Mence check counter + Trapper / Cleaner. Remember the "fun" we have in Generation 4 with Garchomp? Mega Mence is much more powerful than it. Also, before Genesect got banned in Gen 5, people will need to run Shed Shell Heatran to avoid getting trapped by Dugtrio. For a more recent example, think of the Mega Gengar era where people were forced to run Shed Shell on their important Pokemon to avoid getting trapped and swept. The rise of Rocky Helmet on random mons due to Mega Kangaskhan was also a testament to how unhealthy the presence of overpowered pokemon in the tier are. Fun fact: Despite all these supposed countermeasures, these broken mons still prove too much for OU and were eventually banned.

 

[LightNinja]

Just bann it. Even if you would go for a suspect test, the end result will be the same thats almost certain therefor testing it is a waste of time. Salamence is easily on par with mons like Blaziken and Kangaskhan, he is even worse than Lucario imo because Lucario had a very hard time setting up due to its miserable bulk, Salamence however can set up on pretty much everything that doesnt have stab Ice Attacks. He is like Pinsir on steroids and Pinsir was already an A+/S rank threat before Oras. Salamence is so much better than Pinsir, its not even funny. The only thing its lacking compared to Pinsir is priority, but honestly who needs priority with 120 base speed + Dragon Dance? The speed, the power, the bulk (living LO Mamoswines Ice Shard despite 4x weakness i mean come on GF), the movepool, this mon is just over the top and needs to go.

 

[master_marshmallow]

If we are just talking stats, this thing is a monster and comparable to most juggernauts that start out in ubers.

Offensively, 120 is a terrifying speed tier, with I believe only a couple things out speeding it like Greninja. With DD, +1 120 base speed is Blaziken level nonsense.
As far as checks and counters go, this thing cannot be one shotted by anything in the current meta pool, even a Greninja Ice Beam iirc won't ohko it. I know I at least don't wanna start running Blizzard Greninja. If the meta pool changes solely to accommodate killing this thing, it's a problem. The bulk is too real, 130 base Def is insane.
If it couldn't boost its speed, that would change things, but this thing far out classes CharX and he was already S ranked for having great bulk coupled with offensive prowess.
Break out the banhammer.

 

[EmblemLord]

If we are just talking stats, this thing is a monster and comparable to most juggernauts that start out in ubers.

Offensively, 120 is a terrifying speed tier, with I believe only a couple things out speeding it like Greninja. With DD, +1 120 base speed is Blaziken level nonsense.
As far as checks and counters go, this thing cannot be one shotted by anything in the current meta pool, even a Greninja Ice Beam iirc won't ohko it. I know I at least don't wanna start running Blizzard Greninja.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega-Salamence: 707-842 (179.4 - 213.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mega-Mence is actually not that bulky on the special side. It's the insane physical bulk when combined with Intimidate that allows it to live even STAB Ice Shards.

 

[pokemonomekop]

*sigh*
I read through a lot of this thread, most arguments against banning mega-mence are more of arguments attacking bans as a whole
The question is whether salamence-mega is broken to the point of being worthy of a quick ban
So, without further ado, checklist of brokenness (has to do a lot of these things, but not necessarily all)

1. Can it beat a lot of the metagame?
Salamence destroys most of the metagame. What we have in terms of counters is essentially slowbro with ice beam and p2 (there are others but they tend to be obscure), and checks are basically ice users which are faster than salamence, which isn't a lot when salamence is 120 base speed. When it gets to +1 it's nearly impossible to defeat outside of mega slowbro or scarf greninja. Even a mamoswine can't OHKO with ice shard unless the mence is weakened, which is easier said than done given correct team support.

2. Is it versatile?
Salamence has a plethora of sets including offensive DD, sub DD, special sets, bulky sets, and can even run stuff like wish if desired. Its stats and movepool can simultaneously fit the definitions of sweeper, wall, and tank, and can hit on both sides of the offensive spectrum with good coverage. Versatility? A++ for megamence.

3. Does it need significant support to perform its job correctly?
Nope. DD Mega Salamence basically needs any ice shard or bulky ice beam users dead and a free turn in order to sweep, and a defog user to keep it somewhat healthy. These aren't difficult things to pack in a team, and tend to be standard for most offensive teams that aren't HO.

I say it fits broken pretty easily. It's really difficult to argue that M-Salamence is worth not banning without arguing against banning as a whole
I say quick-ban. I'm inclined to believe that a suspect test would lead to the same result in a month, and it doesn't seem worth it to keep it around for that time given the sheer difficulty of beating this monster.

 

[Cinna The Poet]

You get one of two things out of this-it's banned, or the majority of OU teams run him. Seriously, he's just too overpowered! I've used him a lot and he's really effective-too effective. How can you stop it? i mean, maybe you can kill it witha M Glalie Refrigiarate Explosion or something, but its still overpowered. I'm all for a suspect test, but the end result is pretty much certain.

 

[TheMohZone]

the fact of the matter is, unless your running Stall, which is probably a bad idea with this monster running around, The opportunity cost of using any other Mega is massive, your already at a disadvantage cause your not packing MegaNotaRayquaza. you also can't teambuild well around them because you need to back half your team with answers to Mence. Only stall can afford to run a mega other than Mence, with a decent choice of Slowbro, Altaria and Mainly Sableye being viable because your gonna run MMence checks anyway, but Mence is still gonna tear Stall apart regardless like 90% of the offensive megas viable in OU. only moreso.

People outside here claim we limit team building cause we ban shit, and separate them into tiers: well people, this and Ubers is what a game where we let everything loose looks like. you gotta run a pool of under 10 mons or lose hard. personally i wanna use things like Lop and Swamp, i want my Pinsir and CharX i loved in XY to work again, but i can't feasibly run them cause of Mence. it has to go, or teams become cookie cutter quick, and you can read the thread and find over 500 posts saying exactly the same thing.

 

[icutu482]

Amazing offensive and defensive base stats and typing. Phenominal ability both before and after mega evolving. Also, arguably most importantly, M-salamence has a ridiculous movepool that allows it to handle any of its potential "counters" (aqua tail, body slam, double edge, draco, dragon claw, dd, eq, fire blast, frustration/return, hydro pump, hyper voice, outrage, refresh, roost, substitute, tail wind). Depending on its set, salamence can 2HKO most of the meta game, and switching in the wrong counter to the wrong set. switching into scarm when you think your opponent is running a sub dd set just to get blown back by a fire blast from a special set, or a rhyperior to counter it with rock blast to get killed by a set with hydro pump. M-sala can also run a defensive set very effectively with roost, body slam, refresh, headbutt/dragon tail. Like previous arguments, it is very similar to mega lucario in that until you know its set, you have no 100% reliable counter, and often times you have to end up sacking something to figure out it's set. Not to mention th fact that m-sala has 5 other pokemon to handle its checks/counters. Its similar to mega kangaskhan in its ability to turn one set up and sweep your team. Finally, the argument that certain things check it is valid, and something to consider but just because something can check a pokemon doesn't mean that pokemon is balanced. For example, scarf terrakion checks arceus but does that mean we could unban arceus? M-blaziken has checks in azu and talonflame, but it was deemed too powerful and over-centralizing, so it was banned, So yeah, this thing really needs to go and imo there really isnt much of an argument to keep it in the tier, and because of such there inst much of a reason to suspect test this thing. I guess you could but the result would be the same.

 

[metmaver]

This thing’s destiny has probably already been decided. But I want to post my thoughts anyway.

A few months ago, when M-Salamence was revealed, a lot of players expected it to be really good. His ability, Aerilate, was well known due to M-Pinsir’s Return wrecking the OU meta. Knowing that something as powerful as Pinsir could have Dragon Dance was terrifying. Then M-Salamence stats came out, and we realized he had a “small boost” to his Atk, a very nice 120 base speed and a godly 130 base defense.

Let’s talk about this huge defensive boost-

With a base 130 defense, this stat is now 50% higher than normal Salamence’ defense (think about a physically AV that let Mence use status moves). Thanks to the incredible attacking power -base 200 power return- and fantastic speed, people are forgoing the possibility of running a full attack/speed set because the added bulk let him setup on the majority of the metagame. And this is not an exaggeration, because this dragon literally setup on everything. His ability before the mega evolution, Intimidate, only make this step easier. The most used moveset comprends mono attack Return and DD/Sub/Roost. The evs spread is probably 248hp, and a lot of special defense (usually more than 100evs). If you are running offense, you just can’t give this guy a free turn, which is almost impossible not to, since even locked Landorus-T Stone Edge can be stalled out and used as setup fodder. Thundurus-I and Klefki are not reliable answers, since you have to be sure Mence does not have a sub up before trying to paralyze it (and even then, the mence user might be running Healing Wish Latias, making the Thundurus sack completely useless - or a heal bell user on a more balanced team). When building balanced teams, people started using a lot of bulky rocks/electric/steel type to deal with Mence, and that’s fine I guess, this is what you call “adapting to a threat”. But here comes the fact that this monster can utilize multiple sets, from DD-Return-EQ to a full attacking mixed set, with Fire Blast/Draco Meteor/Hyper Voice/Hydro Pump/whatever. And every single one of this sets destroys this dragon’s usual answers, bar Porygon-2 (which usage is skyrocketing - from zero to a somewhat decent usage). I’ve seen different teams with a Skarmory slapped on just to be sure Mence doesn’t sweep the whole squad. And even then, you need a shed shell on the bird to make sure the Magnezone Mence is usually paired up with doesn’t trap you. Skarmory is not exactly good in an offensive team, since it kinda kills momentum, so offense came up with some laughable answers to deal with Salamence. Of those, Scarf Noivern is pure garbage and Scarf Greninja is a joke too (who wants to be choice locked when using a protean ability mon?). Sashes you say? Sash mons are not reliable due to hazards. What about Weavile or Mamoswine? They are good (especially Weavile), but they fail to score a OHKO with the priority Ice Shard:

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 265-312 (67.4 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 302-359 (76.8 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Life Orb Greninja is everywhere, and for good reasons. He is one of the few mons that outspeed 252+ speed M-Salamence (not common) and OHKO’s it, and can singlehandedly wrecks teams if running the right coverage. It is even a nice partner for Salamence too, seeing how it beats a lot of common answers to it (not P2, again). Talking about new megas with super effective moves, a lot of them still fail to KO’s this monster:

252 SpA Mega Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 160 SpD Mega Salamence: 278-330 (70.7 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (yes, this mence's spread is common)
252+ Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 296-352 (75.3 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (and that’s adamant, which is not common at all)
252 Atk Mega Gallade Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 316-372 (80.4 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Mence can set up even on M-Gallade, and sweep afterwards, hilarious)

Oras brought us a lot of new megas, with amazing speed tiers and new stuff. But why would you ever run one of those when Salamence is still legal in OU? He wrecks offense, beats balance and hurts stall, with the multitude of sets it can successfully use. You can run checks and counters, but remember that Mence is not the only mon the opponent is bringing to the match. It is incredibly centralizing and you still can easily lose to it. It can’t stay in OU anymore, it’s not even a funny meta to play in right now. In order to stabilize the metagame as soon as possible, we have to quick-ban M-Salamence and put it where it belongs, in the Uber tier.

 

[ShinyCharizard13]

Mega salamence is really op BUT mega latios is really fast it can take hits and can kill mega salamence so mega latios makes a butter mega salamence so mega salamence should stay in OU pls!!!

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Mega salamence is really op BUT mega latios is really fast it can take hits and can kill mega salamence so mega latios makes a butter mega salamence so mega salamence should stay in OU pls!!!

Mega Latios can't boost it's speed like Salamence can, hit with outlandishly powerful returns, hit both physically and specially without real consequence, or be base 120 speed without a boost

 

[Josh Morales]

Mega Latios can't boost it's speed like Salamence can, hit with outlandishly powerful returns, hit both physically and specially without real consequence, or be base 120 speed without a boost

Dragon Dance Mega Latios is a thing...

 

[Lord Wallace]

Alright most or all of this has probably already been said but I'm going to say it anyway.
I don't understand how a suspect test is even on the table here.
You all may say I'm exaggerating here but I honestly think Mega Mence is worse (or better, depending on your perspective) than Mega Kangaskhan was. Flying is a better offensive STAB than Normal and needs no additional coverage supporting it. Mega Mence can therefore afford to run Sub to avoid status and has frickin reliable recovery (this one is huge).
It's bulkier, has far more resistances to take advantage of, is far faster, and probably also just as strong as Kangaskhan, or at least strong enough to break most of the metagame all the same. Really the only thing Kangaskhan has over Mence is the ability to hit twice, pseudo-SD that's unTauntable, and access to priority, which hardly matters when Mence is so fast and tanks opposing priority like a boss. I guess it's also not weak to Rocks but again that hardly hinders a Pokemon with 95/130/90 defenses, 120 Speed, and Roost.
Let alone the fact Mega Mence can viably run mixed sets and has actual versatility on top of its one, particularly broken SubDD set.
We talk about Kangaskhan like it's the pinnacle of what makes an offensive Uber and nothing could possibly surpass it simply because our memories of it has been warped by time.
It's been too long since anyone has last played against one in OU to make an objective, unbiased judgement and so we put it on a pedestal as an unsurpassed beast.
Well here it is, Mega Mence is more broken than Mega Khan. Quick Banning should be the only option.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Dragon Dance Mega Latios is a thing...

sure, but without intimidate and a spammable STAB move like Return, it's not even in the same conversation.

Once Salamence is gone, Mega Lati@s is going to be a very viable option, but Salamence is so ridiculously overpowered that nothing besides it is worth using if you expect to win consistently

 

[Josh Morales]

sure, but without intimidate and a spammable STAB move like Return, it's not even in the same conversation.

Once Salamence is gone, Mega Lati@s is going to be a very viable option, but Salamence is so ridiculously overpowered that nothing besides it is worth using if you expect to win consistently

I never said it compared to Mega Salamence nor was I arguing for that, you said that Mega Latios can't boost its Speed when it obviously can.

 

[Kurona]

I never said it compared to Mega Salamence nor was I arguing for that, you said that Mega Latios can't boost its Speed when it obviously can.

"Can't be base 120 speed without a boost."

 

[Josh Morales]

"Can't be base 120 speed without a boost."

"Mega Latios can't boost it's speed like Salamence can"

Lol what the fuck is this argument

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I never said it compared to Mega Salamence nor was I arguing for that, you said that Mega Latios can't boost its Speed when it obviously can.

I said

Mega Latios can't boost it's speed like Salamence can

I'll give you that I wasn't specifying, but latios doesn't get opportunities to boost like intimidate gives you, not sites latios force switches ask easily. I was not referring to move set, I was referring to federal boosting opportunities