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A strawman tactic is when you argue a point that hasn't been made, an example of this: Arguing Ubers and Megamons hold a different ban philospophy so we shouldn't ban Mega mence, when we're arguing the restriction of Mega Mence, to better improve for a healthier metagame). I could go a plethora of different routes, but arguing back and forward in huge posts do nothing besides cluttering. Keep it short, keep it simple. Because a calc isn't going to prove much, I see that now. We've all played the metagame. We all know Mega Mence has zero counters between its main sets, Choice band, Defensive Dragon dance, Offensive dragon and Mixed wall-breaker. So I'm not going to bicker over that shit.
It's outstanding that you attempt to argue a point that is essentially mute, because Mega Salamence doesn't have any counters. None. Every set you throw out, we will throw another back at you, getting nowhere. Instead you could argue that Mega Salamence
that Mega salamence isn't centralising, or that it's healthy for the metagame. That's a route you could take, instead of trying to argue that Mega Salamence has counters. Because it doesn't. You want me to show you?
So I'm going of three main sets, and then those sets have variations in EVs and items. I will put the conditions in the conditions of which I put a counter in. Stealth rocks up. Wins regardless of the set, because you don't know which set it use. I'm not acknowledging roar, because yes, while you break it for now you're prolonging the problem.
List of "counters", sets they use and why they lose. From most important to least important.
Aggron-Mega @ Leftovers
Ability: Filter
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Heavy Slam
- Avalanche
- Stealth Rock
Defensive dragon dance and mixed offensive beats Mega Aggron, Offensive DD loses
Vs Mixed
4 SpA Life Orb Mega Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 216-255 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Vs DDD
0 Atk Mega Aggron Avalanche vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 164-194 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Mega Aggron can't 2hko when Avalanche is 60 Base power as seen above, this means that Mega Salamence can set up DDs in its face, when it gets to low you can roost and where Avalanche will do less than 25%. If you have Refresh then T-wave isn't to much of a problem, if its substitute it'll be trickier with predictions. But if you get a substitute up Mega aggron wont be able to break the sub. So your choice is between stalling out its Avalanches, and then setting up dragon dances until you wear it down. Heavy slam has the same BP as Avalanche
Arceus with a flying resistance (rock, steel or electric)
Judgement OHKOs and that's all that matters, if its Steel or electric it should be running ice beam.
So there's two spreads of Arceus-rock, either you're going to try to speed tie, 252/252 timid or 252/252 bold. The thing is, it's a 50/50.
You lose to offensive dragon dance, without it sacrificing really anything. If its timid then you get OHKOd after rocks
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Rock: 395-465 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
and if you're bold you get 2hkod on the switch!
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Rock: 195-231 (44 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Arceus with a super effective stab, but no flying resistance
bold
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Frustration vs. 248 HP / 204 Def Arceus-Fairy: 220-261 (49.6 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
timid
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Frustration vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Fairy: 391-461 (88.2 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Mega Tyranitar + Air balloon
You lose to wallbreaker if it clicks double edge on the switch
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 126-148 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 218-257 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Minimum rolls on both moves means you lose 96% health after rocks, but Mega Tyranitar is one of the better checks to Mega Salamence
Defensive Lugia
You lose to Offensive dragon dance after rocks 100% of the time. You also lose to Wallbreaker on the switch.
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Frustration vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Lugia: 203-239 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Lugia: 238-281 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(Double edge + Life orb is a bad idea for sweepers, for wallbreakers you get more leg room to recover along the way, and your purpose is essentially to break walls, not sweep)
Mega Slowbro
Wallbreaker
4 SpA Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Mega Slowbro: 224-265 (56.8 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Primal groudon
Wallbreaker
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 208-247 (51.4 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Literally can't touch Defensive DD, Stone edge does nothing, T-wave/Toxic is refreshed or subbed on. Already gone over roar.
Offensive DD 2hkos on the switch
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Frustration vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 177-211 (43.8 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
On the conversation of checks, I hear the argument "The metagame is made out of checks" a lot. Well, not really. There's a difference between a defensive checks and counters, i'd be more inclined to call the pokemon above soft counters, while they beat one-two sets, all of them lose to one or more sets as well.
But checks aren't reliable. That is what makes them checks. Shuca berry Dialga is a check, but it can't risk the Eq on the switch. Choice banded Glalie is a check, but loses to return on the switch. They are inherently unreliable.
Mega Salamence has a combination none of the other Megas have, its fast, it's powerful and its bulky with all the utility it wants to have, that's what sets it apart. It's hard to counter/check because not only is it powerful, but it's got the bulk that standard checks don't suffice.
that's nice, you're ignoring two its sets though, and that Mega Salamence chooses what it sets up on.
Defensive Dragon Dance, if they don't expect it and go for their priority move...
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 90-107 (22.9 - 27.2%) -- 46.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 110-133 (27.9 - 33.8%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 88-107 (22.3 - 27.2%) -- 39.6% chance to 4HKO
28 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 136-161 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 50/50
252 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Mega Medicham Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 68-81 (17.3 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mega Glalie Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 268-316 (68.1 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 90-106 (22.9 - 26.9%) -- 53.3% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 118-141 (30 - 35.8%) -- 30.5% chance to 3HKO 50/50
196+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 79-94 (20.1 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO Sub
196+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 192-227 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
168 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 286-337 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 114-136 (29 - 34.6%) -- 6% chance to 3HKO
(Arceus doesn't run Adamant, if you're going to critic me for using "biased sets" don't do it yourself)
This also nicely ignores the fact that Its wallbreaker sets all pokemon before they can attack. And that Defensive Dragon Dance can run leftovers.
And what if you're running Lum berry? That opens up plethora of various options for setting up, you can set up on Ho-oh, P-don, Klefki ect.
To argue that Mega Salamence doesn't get to set up is such a biased, piece of shit argument to make. Personally I set up once a game, 70% of the time. I've also lost multiple time. I EVEN FOUGHT AGAINST Zangooser 's MEGA SALAMENCE PROOF SET, AND NOT ONLY DID I BUT HE SET UP WITH HIS OWN MEGA SALAMENCE AND SWEPT ME! Hahahaha. Fucking hell, get the fuck out of here with that bullshit.
I assume you're clicking Quick attack with Mega lopunny because you Mega Salamence has already set up, you realise that Mega Salamence can just roost up again?
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 136-160 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So you're literally roosted up on until he wants to kill you, what a great check. Most of the supposed "priority" users can just be roosted on and set up further on, because priority moves might pick him of if he's weakened, but they sure as hell aren't putting up enough offensive presence to deter him from roosting up on you. Only priority move thats relevant ( I THINK ) is Mega Glalie in that sense.
Klefki is probably your best bet for Mega Salamence... if you're running like...
Which literally menas Pdon switches in you every single time you come in, you forget he existed, no? (Sorry didn't mean to be hostile chopin). But yeah, klefki can be annoying, but Dazzling gleam a) isn't standard, it wants Play rough to break xerneas's substitues, and b) doesn't 2hko
0 SpA Klefki Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 156-186 (39.6 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So yet again, if it wants to with its DD, roost, refresh, return set it can set up to +6 +6 in both stats before it attacks. Foul play might be your best bet here, but then you don't pressure special attackers... At all. Plus wall-breaker fire blasts/eqs and fries the keys of destiny.
T-wave and Will o Wisp = Refresh/Substitute/Lum berry
All your points have been addressed, if I skipped one please PM me because I have forgotten, but my counter argument is there.
I really didn't have to make this post Zangooser because we're friends, but if you're going to make such a biased post, with such nitpicky, strawman arguments... Well I don't know what to say, this was hurtful.
Read this part if you don't want to read the wall
The biggest problem I have with Mega Salamence is that Mega Salamence is already the third best pokemon in the game. If we're going by Official tiers and rankings, Its Mega Rayquaza, Primal groudon, Mega Salamence. And what we have here is lack of consistency. Mega MMY and MMX are in the B ranks. They're horrible in ubers, but yet here they aren't allowed to hold an item, but a Mega that's S rank is? And Primal groudon, is at S+ so we restricted it. What's the consistency here? If defensive items don't add much compared to offensive ones and MMY and MMX are offensive megas, why are they, sitting in B rank not allowed to carry an item when Mega Salamence is? Is this the pattern?
S+ = No item S = Item B = No item
What makes MMY and MMX so broken that they can't have an item, but Mega Salamence, which is already leagues better, is allowed to hold one? Is one item enough to break a pokemon? I don't think so. None of them should be allowed to hold one, or all of them should. Or Mega mence shouldn't, Don shouldn't and MMx/MMy should.
Please restrict Mega Salamence from holding an item
Okay about the second part of your post. Don't even try to pull the "I'm we're friends but you hurt me" pity card, and don't call Zangooser 's thoughts biased when all she's doing is trying to give her view on the suspect. If anything, you're being extremely biased with the stupid "my set works well so it makes it OP" argument. I might not be an avid meganons player but holy shit stop being such an asshole.
Firstly, we aren't going by official tiering lol. Zangooser has told you this twice now, yet you still chose to ignore her, and this is the third time now. This is not ubers. This is not even close to any official tier. Megamons is an entirely different metagame than Ubers or AG. Stop saying it isn't. Even if a Pokemon is horrible in Ubers, that doesn't make it terrible here. Take a look at MMX and Y in BH. Yes, this isn't BH, but my point is they're really good with access to items. They'd still be really good if they had items here, and would outclass almost every mega. Stop saying they're not going to be broken. They'd be broken if they could access an item AND use it in tandem with their godly attacking stats. Why can't you see that?
Salamence is allowed to hold an item currently because it hadn't been tested without one before. That's the whole point of this suspect lol.
Don't use the "restrict all or don't restrict any" argument either. The point of this metagame is to let people use unlimited Megas while they all have access to items. Why would we want to make the metagame stale?
Go ahead and block me from your profile like you did Zangooser just because I argued with you lol but still
I understand AllJokesAside logic here in which certain "Uber" megas are not allowed to hold items when others are not. If we can say that Megamons is not like Ubers in their banning philosophy (which I agree), then why is Mega Gengar and Mega Mewtwo Y and X not allowed to hold items even though we never properly tested them in such scenarios? If the logic behind it is "its cause they are too powerful", wouldn't that be theorymonning and not sufficient? Wasn't it agreed that we couldn't use Ubers viability when it comes to tiering in this meta? The lack of consitency is present in my eyes, and this should really be addressed.
In my personal opinions, Ubers megas should not be allowed to hold items, but since it is preferred to not consider things "Ubers" in this metagame, then why are certain megas restricted?
Sorry if I am not articulate in my wording, tired and stuff ;)
I understand AllJokesAside logic here in which certain "Uber" megas are not allowed to hold items when others are not. If we can say that Megamons is not like Ubers in their banning philosophy (which I agree), then why is Mega Gengar and Mega Mewtwo Y and X not allowed to hold items even though we never properly tested them in such scenarios? If the logic behind it is "its cause they are too powerful", wouldn't that be theorymonning and not sufficient? Wasn't it agreed that we couldn't use Ubers viability when it comes to tiering in this meta? The lack of consitency is present in my eyes, and this should really be addressed.
In my personal opinions, Ubers megas should not be allowed to hold items, but since it is preferred to not consider things "Ubers" in this metagame, then why are certain megas restricted?
Sorry if I am not articulate in my wording, tired and stuff ;)
A strawman tactic is when you argue a point that hasn't been made, an example of this: Arguing Ubers and Megamons hold a different ban philospophy so we shouldn't ban Mega mence, when we're arguing the restriction of Mega Mence, to better improve for a healthier metagame). I could go a plethora of different routes, but arguing back and forward in huge posts do nothing besides cluttering. Keep it short, keep it simple. Because a calc isn't going to prove much, I see that now. We've all played the metagame. We all know Mega Mence has zero counters between its main sets, Choice band, Defensive Dragon dance, Offensive dragon and Mixed wall-breaker. So I'm not going to bicker over that shit.
It's outstanding that you attempt to argue a point that is essentially mute, because Mega Salamence doesn't have any counters. None. Every set you throw out, we will throw another back at you, getting nowhere. Instead you could argue that Mega Salamence
that Mega salamence isn't centralising, or that it's healthy for the metagame. That's a route you could take, instead of trying to argue that Mega Salamence has counters. Because it doesn't. You want me to show you?
So I'm going of three main sets, and then those sets have variations in EVs and items. I will put the conditions in the conditions of which I put a counter in. Stealth rocks up. Wins regardless of the set, because you don't know which set it use. I'm not acknowledging roar, because yes, while you break it for now you're prolonging the problem.
List of "counters", sets they use and why they lose. From most important to least important.
Aggron-Mega @ Leftovers
Ability: Filter
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Heavy Slam
- Avalanche
- Stealth Rock
Defensive dragon dance and mixed offensive beats Mega Aggron, Offensive DD loses
Vs Mixed
4 SpA Life Orb Mega Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 216-255 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Vs DDD
0 Atk Mega Aggron Avalanche vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 164-194 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Mega Aggron can't 2hko when Avalanche is 60 Base power as seen above, this means that Mega Salamence can set up DDs in its face, when it gets to low you can roost and where Avalanche will do less than 25%. If you have Refresh then T-wave isn't to much of a problem, if its substitute it'll be trickier with predictions. But if you get a substitute up Mega aggron wont be able to break the sub. So your choice is between stalling out its Avalanches, and then setting up dragon dances until you wear it down. Heavy slam has the same BP as Avalanche
Arceus with a flying resistance (rock, steel or electric)
Judgement OHKOs and that's all that matters, if its Steel or electric it should be running ice beam.
So there's two spreads of Arceus-rock, either you're going to try to speed tie, 252/252 timid or 252/252 bold. The thing is, it's a 50/50.
You lose to offensive dragon dance, without it sacrificing really anything. If its timid then you get OHKOd after rocks
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Rock: 395-465 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
and if you're bold you get 2hkod on the switch!
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Rock: 195-231 (44 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Arceus with a super effective stab, but no flying resistance
bold
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Frustration vs. 248 HP / 204 Def Arceus-Fairy: 220-261 (49.6 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
timid
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Frustration vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Fairy: 391-461 (88.2 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Mega Tyranitar + Air balloon
You lose to wallbreaker if it clicks double edge on the switch
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 126-148 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 218-257 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Minimum rolls on both moves means you lose 96% health after rocks, but Mega Tyranitar is one of the better checks to Mega Salamence
Defensive Lugia
You lose to Offensive dragon dance after rocks 100% of the time. You also lose to Wallbreaker on the switch.
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Frustration vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Lugia: 203-239 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Lugia: 238-281 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(Double edge + Life orb is a bad idea for sweepers, for wallbreakers you get more leg room to recover along the way, and your purpose is essentially to break walls, not sweep)
Mega Slowbro
Wallbreaker
4 SpA Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Mega Slowbro: 224-265 (56.8 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Primal groudon
Wallbreaker
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 208-247 (51.4 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Literally can't touch Defensive DD, Stone edge does nothing, T-wave/Toxic is refreshed or subbed on. Already gone over roar.
Offensive DD 2hkos on the switch
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Frustration vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 177-211 (43.8 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
On the conversation of checks, I hear the argument "The metagame is made out of checks" a lot. Well, not really. There's a difference between a defensive checks and counters, i'd be more inclined to call the pokemon above soft counters, while they beat one-two sets, all of them lose to one or more sets as well.
But checks aren't reliable. That is what makes them checks. Shuca berry Dialga is a check, but it can't risk the Eq on the switch. Choice banded Glalie is a check, but loses to return on the switch. They are inherently unreliable.
Mega Salamence has a combination none of the other Megas have, its fast, it's powerful and its bulky with all the utility it wants to have, that's what sets it apart. It's hard to counter/check because not only is it powerful, but it's got the bulk that standard checks don't suffice.
that's nice, you're ignoring two its sets though, and that Mega Salamence chooses what it sets up on.
Defensive Dragon Dance, if they don't expect it and go for their priority move...
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 90-107 (22.9 - 27.2%) -- 46.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 110-133 (27.9 - 33.8%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 88-107 (22.3 - 27.2%) -- 39.6% chance to 4HKO
28 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 136-161 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 50/50
252 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Mega Medicham Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 68-81 (17.3 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mega Glalie Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 268-316 (68.1 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 90-106 (22.9 - 26.9%) -- 53.3% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 118-141 (30 - 35.8%) -- 30.5% chance to 3HKO 50/50
196+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 79-94 (20.1 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO Sub
196+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 192-227 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
168 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 286-337 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 114-136 (29 - 34.6%) -- 6% chance to 3HKO
(Arceus doesn't run Adamant, if you're going to critic me for using "biased sets" don't do it yourself)
This also nicely ignores the fact that Its wallbreaker sets all pokemon before they can attack. And that Defensive Dragon Dance can run leftovers.
And what if you're running Lum berry? That opens up plethora of various options for setting up, you can set up on Ho-oh, P-don, Klefki ect.
To argue that Mega Salamence doesn't get to set up is such a biased, piece of shit argument to make. Personally I set up once a game, 70% of the time. I've also lost multiple time. I EVEN FOUGHT AGAINST Zangooser 's MEGA SALAMENCE PROOF SET, AND NOT ONLY DID I BUT HE SET UP WITH HIS OWN MEGA SALAMENCE AND SWEPT ME! Hahahaha. Fucking hell, get the fuck out of here with that bullshit.
I assume you're clicking Quick attack with Mega lopunny because you Mega Salamence has already set up, you realise that Mega Salamence can just roost up again?
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 136-160 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So you're literally roosted up on until he wants to kill you, what a great check. Most of the supposed "priority" users can just be roosted on and set up further on, because priority moves might pick him of if he's weakened, but they sure as hell aren't putting up enough offensive presence to deter him from roosting up on you. Only priority move thats relevant ( I THINK ) is Mega Glalie in that sense.
Klefki is probably your best bet for Mega Salamence... if you're running like...
Which literally menas Pdon switches in you every single time you come in, you forget he existed, no? (Sorry didn't mean to be hostile chopin). But yeah, klefki can be annoying, but Dazzling gleam a) isn't standard, it wants Play rough to break xerneas's substitues, and b) doesn't 2hko
0 SpA Klefki Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 156-186 (39.6 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So yet again, if it wants to with its DD, roost, refresh, return set it can set up to +6 +6 in both stats before it attacks. Foul play might be your best bet here, but then you don't pressure special attackers... At all. Plus wall-breaker fire blasts/eqs and fries the keys of destiny.
T-wave and Will o Wisp = Refresh/Substitute/Lum berry
All your points have been addressed, if I skipped one please PM me because I have forgotten, but my counter argument is there.
I really didn't have to make this post Zangooser because we're friends, but if you're going to make such a biased post, with such nitpicky, strawman arguments... Well I don't know what to say, this was hurtful.
Read this part if you don't want to read the wall
The biggest problem I have with Mega Salamence is that Mega Salamence is already the third best pokemon in the game. If we're going by Official tiers and rankings, Its Mega Rayquaza, Primal groudon, Mega Salamence. And what we have here is lack of consistency. Mega MMY and MMX are in the B ranks. They're horrible in ubers, but yet here they aren't allowed to hold an item, but a Mega that's S rank is? And Primal groudon, is at S+ so we restricted it. What's the consistency here? If defensive items don't add much compared to offensive ones and MMY and MMX are offensive megas, why are they, sitting in B rank not allowed to carry an item when Mega Salamence is? Is this the pattern?
S+ = No item S = Item B = No item
What makes MMY and MMX so broken that they can't have an item, but Mega Salamence, which is already leagues better, is allowed to hold one? Is one item enough to break a pokemon? I don't think so. None of them should be allowed to hold one, or all of them should. Or Mega mence shouldn't, Don shouldn't and MMx/MMy should.
Please restrict Mega Salamence from holding an item
Ok. Let me tell a little history about megamons. Correct me if I'm wrong runbabyrun. TBK was the one who actually made the meta. He quickbanned Mega Mewtwos and Mega Gengar from the start without even being tested (which is a mistake I think, though mega Gengar is quickban worthy). Then, runbabyrun take over the meta and decided to ban the primals and Soul Dew, because the Primals are as limiting as Mega Ray. Then he unbanned Soul Dew because he tries to test it and it's proven to be bearable. What I'm trying to say is, the MMX and MMY ban inconsistency was never intended and I'm sure runbabyrun agrees with this (okay sorry if you don't ;-;).
Checks DO matter and having no counters is NOT a good argument in Ubers based metas because the meta is BASED around checks, which is why Primal Groudon is bearable, if not, they would've been banned Primal Groudon from long ago, I believe Articuno I already covers up this point. The same symptoms of Pdon occurs in Mega Mence that it can't cover everything in ONE SET. It's also not invalidating every playstyle like Mega Ray did. And also, the point of check is to cover the standard sets, no matter how unreliable they are. It doesn't matter if checks lose to different sets, as long as the checks can cover one of standard sets (like DD), it's regarded as counterplay in Ubers (no, not counter. it's different). Sure, you can ban Mega Mence if it can run 8 different moves, but it can't, and that's what keeps it from being broken.
runbabyrun crazy idea but what if you suspect Mega Mewtwo formes to hold item since on paper it actually has walls?
Okay about the second part of your post. Don't even try to pull the "I'm we're friends but you hurt me" pity card, and don't call Zangooser 's thoughts biased when all she's doing is trying to give her view on the suspect. If anything, you're being extremely biased with the stupid "my set works well so it makes it OP" argument. I might not be an avid meganons player but holy shit stop being such an asshole.
Firstly, we aren't going by official tiering lol. Zangooser has told you this twice now, yet you still chose to ignore her, and this is the third time now. This is not ubers. This is not even close to any official tier. Megamons is an entirely different metagame than Ubers or AG. Stop saying it isn't. Even if a Pokemon is horrible in Ubers, that doesn't make it terrible here. Take a look at MMX and Y in BH. Yes, this isn't BH, but my point is they're really good with access to items. They'd still be really good if they had items here, and would outclass almost every mega. Stop saying they're not going to be broken. They'd be broken if they could access an item AND use it in tandem with their godly attacking stats. Why can't you see that?
Salamence is allowed to hold an item currently because it hadn't been tested without one before. That's the whole point of this suspect lol.
Don't use the "restrict all or don't restrict any" argument either. The point of this metagame is to let people use unlimited Megas while they all have access to items. Why would we want to make the metagame stale?
Go ahead and block me from your profile like you did Zangooser just because I argued with you lol but still
Jolly Dragon dance Life orb is the most common set, not mine. Adamant LO was what I used in the start, I don't anymore. I don't know what you mean by my sets, I say mine because I use them, I certainly didn't invent them. Wallbreaker is a set Mega salamence run, It runs offensive and defensive dragon dance, although I tweaked it to fit the metagame better it's not my set.
The reason I wrote "I'm not going to make a nuke post, those do nothing ect. " Is because the first paragraph was written right after LaxLapras's post, but as it went on and on, with more calcs that aren't right I had to address it.
There are no official tiering in this metagame. There is no viability rankings so I go of ubers, and I don't know how that's dumb. All of these mons gain something from an item, so it's an equal boost. So lets say, for simplicity that:
Adding the ability to hold an item makes every pokemon 50% better, lets just say that, for simplicity. Now we give that ability to Mega Salamence, but not MMX, PDON, POGRE and MMY. That makes Mega Salamence significantly better than all of those, and though this is fine, I feel as if it elevates Mega Salamence to place of viability, power and centralisation that vastly outmatches that of the others who can't hold an item.
I don't understand your logic... you say I can't compare Megamons to Ubers, but you compare MMXY potential viability to that of their viability in BH?! Mega Mewtwo Y and X aren't shit because their stats, their stats are literally some of the only redeeming qualities of MMY/X. I posted a comment in the ubers thread, if either of the Mewtwo forms had the stats of Clefable, they would be NU lol, that's how bad they are. If you boost their power by 33%, with a life orb, then it wouldn't make them broken. It might bump them up to A, perhaps, but certainly wouldn't break them... Mewtwo forms get amazing when you can utilise their stats with an ability or movepool. The only thing that matters in BH is stats and typing, MMYX have some of the best stat spreads in the game.
And that's another thing, here you have a pokemon that literally only has their stats going for them, and the stats are truly amazing, so okay, lets not give them an item, but then you have Mega Salamence... Amazing ability, breathtaking bulk and decent typing with a resistance to fighting, fire and ground. And you want to give it the ability to hold an item? Why? What's the point?
Mega salamence was always allowed to hold an item, we're suspecting it so it doesn't.
If the point of the metagame is to allowed all pokemon to hold an item, especially Mega's, then stay consistent. Here's the deal, you can have an metagame which doesn't restrict items and follows the direction of the metagame or you can have a balanced one. You can't have your cake and eat it to.
My big problem is that banning philosophy is being brought up when it fits the narrative, when I bring up Mega Gengar, Primal groudon, Primal kyogre and MMX/Y it's "they're broken, we restricted them because they were broken".
But when I bring up that Mega Salamence should be restricted its "This is a different metagame, Mega Salamence shouldn't be BANNED (Ignoring that I'm saying restricted) megamons is different!"
That's my problem with this discussion. If you want to solve this nicely, make it so only OU ranked pokemon can use their items without the stone, doesn't that solve this nicely? Or we could unban everything and say that this is how the metagame is supposed to be, the ladder is already dead and the month is halfways over anyways. (This wasn't voted in, but vetoed)
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here.
By your logic, why does Gengar-Mega deserve a Mega Restriction?
The main reason why I say no ban. There ARE some nice checks for Mega Gengar. Shed Shell lets you switch with ease. Besides, plenty of viable mons outspeed it without boosts and can easily 2HKO or commonly run pivot moves. Aerodactyl-Mega, Alakazam-Mega, Beedrill-Mega, Deoxys, Lopunny-Mega, Manectric-Mega, Mewtwo-Mega-Y, and Sceptile-Mega are all good examples. Speed Boost Blaziken and ddance sets, namely Salamence, can outspeed and 2HKO it. Also note that the standard "Perish Trapper (Rick Gastly)" doesn't even run full speed ev's, so even more mons can possibly outspeed.
Here's the thing. Megamons has so many offensive mons that are so powerful. Mega Gengar is only one out of the many offensive threats that have been introduced, ex. Mega Latios, Mega Lucario, Mega Mawile, etc. In all honesty, the meta would balance itself out, and Mega Gengar would be part of that balance. The metagame will adapt to it. I think right now, the metagame is able to balance itself out and nothing is really able to become particularly broken because of all of the threats that exist already. That's how I see it, though.
Its natural bulk is easily surpassed by many threats in the Megamons metagame due to the evident power creep. It is the same level of a threat, I agree. The power creep of this meta combined with the complete absence of stall and abundance of priority means that Gengar will rarely if at all get off a Perish Song and use it to trap and kill. Only bulky variants can psong and the speed issues that crop up with investing in defense is considerable. Of course Gengar still hits hard without a boost but it can be revenge-killed or taken out by a bulkier mon. Therefore i don't think it needs to be restricted or any mon should be. The meta will be quite balanced actually.
There are actually switch-ins to Mence here though, and they come in variety. Steel Arceus is great for Kyogre, Lugia, Yveltal while obtaining Defog capabilities and walling Lati formes. I find that rather than the metagame adjusting to Gengar, Gengar will adjust to the metagame. The metagame will not be threatened to the point that this needs to be banned. Please just don't think Gengar is the only mon without a definite counter (Gengar actually has reasonable answers)
You want to speak about how much Gengar can revenge kill, well, revenge killing isn't a great argument because you're inherently giving yourself the matchup advantage. I could easily turn that argument around on you: Scarf Greninja.
I'm still stuck on how "this can run offensive or psong and beat its counters, let's ban it" has somehow become a legitimate banning argument in ANY tier, let alone a tier based on Ubers. How is this logical in any sense? You guys fail to understand the concept of opportunity cost. There is definitely an opportunity cost for running any move to beat some normal checks/counters. Unless the mon in question completely DESTROYS the competitive metagame as a whole, rendering it basically unplayable, we shouldn't be talking about banning anything.
In my opinion each poke you have needs to have something that can annoy gengar. That doesn't mean earthquake/shadowball on everything but status or heavy damage move is enough and those things are totally normal in megamons. This is not even something specific for gengar.
I don't think Mega Gengar needs a ban, nor do I think there's a huge difference in ability between it holding an item and it holding a mega stone.
I will continue with additional arguments in a separate post, as I doubt this will be enough to shake the bias from the Gengar haters.
How are you going to refute this post without refuting your mence arguements?
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here.
By your logic, why does Gengar-Mega deserve a Mega Restriction?
The main reason why I say no ban. There ARE some nice checks for Mega Gengar. Shed Shell lets you switch with ease. Besides, plenty of viable mons outspeed it without boosts and can easily 2HKO or commonly run pivot moves. Aerodactyl-Mega, Alakazam-Mega, Beedrill-Mega, Deoxys, Lopunny-Mega, Manectric-Mega, Mewtwo-Mega-Y, and Sceptile-Mega are all good examples. Speed Boost Blaziken and ddance sets, namely Salamence, can outspeed and 2HKO it. Also note that the standard "Perish Trapper (Rick Gastly)" doesn't even run full speed ev's, so even more mons can possibly outspeed.
Here's the thing. Megamons has so many offensive mons that are so powerful. Mega Gengar is only one out of the many offensive threats that have been introduced, ex. Mega Latios, Mega Lucario, Mega Mawile, etc. In all honesty, the meta would balance itself out, and Mega Gengar would be part of that balance. The metagame will adapt to it. I think right now, the metagame is able to balance itself out and nothing is really able to become particularly broken because of all of the threats that exist already. That's how I see it, though.
Its natural bulk is easily surpassed by many threats in the Megamons metagame due to the evident power creep. It is the same level of a threat, I agree. The power creep of this meta combined with the complete absence of stall and abundance of priority means that Gengar will rarely if at all get off a Perish Song and use it to trap and kill. Only bulky variants can psong and the speed issues that crop up with investing in defense is considerable. Of course Gengar still hits hard without a boost but it can be revenge-killed or taken out by a bulkier mon. Therefore i don't think it needs to be restricted or any mon should be. The meta will be quite balanced actually.
There are actually switch-ins to Mence here though, and they come in variety. Steel Arceus is great for Kyogre, Lugia, Yveltal while obtaining Defog capabilities and walling Lati formes. I find that rather than the metagame adjusting to Gengar, Gengar will adjust to the metagame. The metagame will not be threatened to the point that this needs to be banned. Please just don't think Gengar is the only mon without a definite counter (Gengar actually has reasonable answers)
You want to speak about how much Gengar can revenge kill, well, revenge killing isn't a great argument because you're inherently giving yourself the matchup advantage. I could easily turn that argument around on you: Scarf Greninja.
I'm still stuck on how "this can run offensive or psong and beat its counters, let's ban it" has somehow become a legitimate banning argument in ANY tier, let alone a tier based on Ubers. How is this logical in any sense? You guys fail to understand the concept of opportunity cost. There is definitely an opportunity cost for running any move to beat some normal checks/counters. Unless the mon in question completely DESTROYS the competitive metagame as a whole, rendering it basically unplayable, we shouldn't be talking about banning anything.
In my opinion each poke you have needs to have something that can annoy gengar. That doesn't mean earthquake/shadowball on everything but status or heavy damage move is enough and those things are totally normal in megamons. This is not even something specific for gengar.
I don't think Mega Gengar needs a ban, nor do I think there's a huge difference in ability between it holding an item and it holding a mega stone.
I will continue with additional arguments in a separate post, as I doubt this will be enough to shake the bias from the Gengar haters.
How are you going to refute this post without refuting your mence arguements?
This is a bit of a stretch to say the least... Gengar and Mence are nowhere near comparable. First of all, you speak of Gengar like its main niche is an offensive threat in the same role as Salamence. That is just wildly wrong. Gengar's stats and offensive prowess are not the problem for it being restricted. The problem comes with it being able to trap without mega-evoing, on its initial switchin. Even with that, choice trick also? Its possibilities are ridiculous, and it should NOT be compared to Mence. I'm not even going to bother going into why this is insane when combined with Gengar's stats and typing. Hell, even Gothitelle is banned in OU (Don't freak out with the "THIS ISN'T OU YOUR ARGUMENT IS ****," I'm just pointing out how obviously broken Shadow Tag is).
Ironically AJA just made a post about how we shouldn't use straw man arguments. This, is the strawest of men, cmon now. You're comparing apples and.... Elephants here. Let's not get carried away
I don't think he is LaxLapras , what he's saying is that
a) everything gets access to a 33% damage boost, Mega gengar shouldn't be an exception
b) there's no one item that would make Gengar broken, even if you gave it a scarf or a sash it'll help it do its job better, but isn't that exactly the point of an item? Is the ability to hold a focus sash for Mega Gengar better in terms of usage than Mega Salamence new found ability to beat all arceus forms? Something it previously couldn't do. I don't think trick scarf is that good for Gengar, you're essentially committing to taking out one pokemon, but that's what makes Mega Gengar good. It can still take out one mon without scarf, but it doesn't drastically change how its played. Specs / LO breaking it is weird. We all know that Mega Gengar can take out most bulky pokemon reliably without giving them a chance to escape, but that's what it does. It still does this if you give it and item or not, be fair about it.
c) The 20+ speed boost right of the bat doesn't make or break Mega Gengar in my opinion. Is it more valuable than Diancie's 60+ boost? Mega Lucarios 23+? Mega Beedril? Beedril and Diancie not having to pick protect is amazing for them, so we allow it for them, but we use the same argument against unrestriction Mega Gengar
If your argument is nothing but banning consistency, stop making the argument. This whole "let's ban this because it gets around its checks easily" is completely and utterly irrelevant and has been irrelevant for a long fucking time. I can get around all your Mega Kangaskhan checks. I can get around all of your Primal Groudon checks. Are we talking about banning them? Should we be talking about banning them?
I'm going to ignore the Mega Gengar issue since it's 1. irrelevant since Shadow Tag and a powerful sweeper are completely incomparable in every way and 2. was quickbanned without playtesting and 3. Shed Shell is about as good of an argument for Mega Gengar checks as Focus Sash is for Mega Mence. AJA's post also ignores the main point that being already mega evolved makes a HUGE difference in battle than having to mega evolve to gain shadow tag. I honestly can't be fucked to argue against this because any comparison is just straight up desperate.
Opportunity cost for running V-create on Mega Ray? Zero. Opportunity cost for running Specs on Mega Mence? You aren't DD anymore. Mega Mence doesn't get 8 moves, and it needs the first 4 moves to preform its normal role. Mega Ray needed basically two moves to destroy the metagame.
Arguing for the banning of Mega Mence is supposedly trying to create a healthier metagame, but all you're doing is opening a slippery slope with the consistency argument that basically creates an OU-based banning definition for an Ubers tier. Next we would be banning Primal Groudon, the Mega Latis, Xerneas (without primaldon geoxern becomes wayyyy too broken for OU definitions) and so many more. The slippery slope is a bad argument when the ban in question isn't literally the standard for which every other suspect for the rest of the metagame's history will be defined by.
Personally, I wouldn't be opposed to suspecting the Mega Mewtwos. Mega Gengar falls into the category of straight up uncompetitive and is in no regards anywhere near Mega Salamence (seriously please stop making that comparison, its fucking retarded), but the Mega Mewtwos don't fit that definition, and would probably be less broken than Primaldon and the many other mons in this metagame. I personally don't feel strongly on that either way, I'm fine with the meta as is.
This argument is literally the most grasping thing I have ever read and I can't come to fathom how we can make an accurate decision when we are comparing Mega Gengar and Mega Salamence. Please, stop. I see you guys pushing for an OU definition in an Ubers tier, and none of you realize the simple fact that there is a reason that Ubers has a certain tiering system in place now.
Mega Salamence has a combination none of the other Megas have, its fast, it's powerful and its bulky with all the utility it wants to have, that's what sets it apart. It's hard to counter/check because not only is it powerful, but it's got the bulk that standard checks don't suffice.
I like how the start of your post talks about attacking a straw man, yet you don't actually address my points.
I agree that Mega Salamence has a combination no other megas have. I think it's the utility we have to focus on here, as there are other megas with similar characteristics elsewhere - offensively, Mega Diancie shares similarities while in terms of bulk Mega Metagross and Mega Scizor have a lot of positives. But the problem is, you're comparing it to other megas, rather than comparing it to the metagame. Again, I'd like to put forward such huge threats as GeoXern, Rock Polish Pdon, Ekiller Arceus. I know you're not saying that we should ban Mence but you're saying we should actively restrict it, so why is it that we should actively restrict this one pokemon and not all the others that are equally big, or often bigger, threats?
I'd also, again, like to question, once again, just how much of a nerf it would be for mence. Life Orb is certainly a nice item, but putting the foe at -1 atk creates a whole load of setup opportunities that otherwise wouldn't be there - for example, a standard LO Mega Metagross goes from KOing most of the time with Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch to being unable to, and +1 eq has a plenty high enough chance to KO in return where a mere LO boosted eq can't. I'm unconvinced that any item is really any better than its megastone, which makes me even less convinced that restricting the pokemon in this way is a good idea.
Oh dear. I don't feel like becoming a Smogon history teacher...
There is a difference between being broken and being uncompetitive. Uncompetitive is defined as the things that "take away autonomy (control of game's events), take it out of hand player's decisions", quoted from XY Ubers when they're suspecting Shadow Tag. Most things defined as uncompetitive are usually involves luck, this is why Ubers banned Swagger and Moody. Shadow Tag doesn't involve luck, yet it removes the fundamental choice of player called Switching, which is why it's called as Uncompetitive.
Shadow Tag was almost banned in Ubers BECAUSE of Mega Gengar, but ORAS additions and the fact that Mega Gengar has nowhere to go (XY don't have anything goes yet) prevents them from banning Shadow tag (we all know that Ubers are very anti banning pokemon, because the philosophy of ubers is, it's a competitive metagame with least amount of bans). Problem occurs when Mega Rayquaza was introduced. Mega Rayquaza makes Ubers loses the competitive aspects because it makes Ubers loses all possible strategies and playstyles that are able to be played besides just... using Mega Ray. Pdon doesn't achieve up to this point even though it's incredibly centralizing (you know how every team has Pdon in their team), which is why Ubers didn't ban Pdon.
No, Shed Shell is NOT really a Choice because the very presence of Shadow Tag force you to basically make your pokemon weaker, which means Shadow Tag still does it's job (also quoted from XY Ubers Shadow Tag suspect). By this definition, Mega Gengar does NOT have a viable counter or checks (Mega Ray's problems), because you can't check Mega Gengar using the standard sets (certain items are required in standard set, and almost nothing in Ubers have Shed Shell as their standard).
So, why it isn't banned then? There were many factors that prevents Shadow Tag ban in XY Ubers (find and read the XY Ubers Shadow Tag suspect if you want to find out), but the point is, it almost got banned (it even got banned in one point, though it was unbanned again). What I'm trying to say is, if you argue that Mega Gengar is fine with an item, you are basically encouraging the uncompetitiveness aspect of Ubers. If that's fine with you, okay then but I don't think many people want that.
Tbh, by this definition, both Mega Mewtwo formes are suspect worthy because we don't know if they are like Mega Ray or not (I mean, doesn't have checks and invalidating playstyles), though I'm sure some people wouldn't agree for Mega Mewtwo suspect. The Megamons meta is already crazy and I don't think people wants it become crazier by having Mega Mewtwo formes hold items.
Mega Mence is stupidly strong, and its bulk basically allows it function almost like Vanilla Mence in UU. It can actually run craploads of sets, Ddance, DDD, offensive defogger, All choice items, even Fatmence could see use. The point is Mence is pretty hard to prepare for and I think this tier should be viewed like Mix n Mega - it still bans things like regular metas do even though it Ubers based. If it breaks the tier, ban it.
Also I would be open for a Mega M2 suspect, as I dont think they are nearly as bad as initially thought.
Okay so as the leader of this metagame I think I should address a few things.
I did not make the Mega Mewtwo X/Y bans, nor did I make the Mega Gengar ban. All of that was brought over from the original thread (which was made by TBK).
This is not Mix n Mega. Both of these metagames are completely different from each other. Just because Mix n Mega has a different ban policy but is Ubers based does not mean Megamons has to.
Why are some people in this thread comparing Mega Gengar and Mega Salamence? It's been mentioned before, and the Smogon community has deemed Shadow Tag to be uncompetitive, not broken. There is a major difference. Mega Salamence is not uncompetitive, and it is currently arguable as to whether or not it is broken.
Mega Gengar isn't going to get a suspect for an unban. I know some people want it, but points have already been made in this thread, and if you need to run Shed Shell on a Pokemon to avoid Mega Gengar's Shadow Tag (and lots of Pokemon rely on their items to be good here!), then there is a problem there.
Just asking. When will the suspect end? The Megamons Viability Rankings is now more or less finished and we're planning to post it once the suspect ends.
Taking a detour from the MegaMence debate (It should not be banned from holding items, btw), If anybody is having trouble with Mega Aggron, I have a super reliable Pokemon that can take it out
Landorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power Ice
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 283-335 (82.2 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Barely misses out on the OHKO with timid. The reason why I use this over Mega Camerupt is because of Camerupt's horrible speed. Landorus outspeeds even when Camerupt is running max speed EVs, A Beneficial Nature, and a Choice Scarf.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 328-387 (74.7 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is Sludge Wave on to the standard GeoXern set before Geomancy.
Taking a detour from the MegaMence debate (It should not be banned from holding items, btw), If anybody is having trouble with Mega Aggron, I have a super reliable Pokemon that can take it out
Landorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power Ice
Cool set though Lando's defenses and lack of priority are problems for it. Another thing is it is completely walled by the Lati twins -
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Latias: 73-88 (24.1 - 29.1%)
I think a mixed set would be pretty good.Knock Off is a brilliant move in this meta and it hits the lati's hard without any investment -
4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Latias: 190-224 (62.9 - 74.1%)
Wow a mon that can actually KO suppor pdon -
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Primal Groudon: 406-478 (100.4 - 118.3%)
But yeah just too many things outspeed this guy and ko him..
Okay so as the leader of this metagame I think I should address a few things.
I did not make the Mega Mewtwo X/Y bans, nor did I make the Mega Gengar ban. All of that was brought over from the original thread (which was made by TBK).
This is not Mix n Mega. Both of these metagames are completely different from each other. Just because Mix n Mega has a different ban policy but is Ubers based does not mean Megamons has to.
Why are some people in this thread comparing Mega Gengar and Mega Salamence? It's been mentioned before, and the Smogon community has deemed Shadow Tag to be uncompetitive, not broken. There is a major difference. Mega Salamence is not uncompetitive, and it is currently arguable as to whether or not it is broken.
Mega Gengar isn't going to get a suspect for an unban. I know some people want it, but points have already been made in this thread, and if you need to run Shed Shell on a Pokemon to avoid Mega Gengar's Shadow Tag (and lots of Pokemon rely on their items to be good here!), then there is a problem there.
This metagame is literally ubers + 33% damage boost to mega forms. Pdon is still dominant. You still need a Mega salamence check. You still need a Xerneas check, ho-oh ect. The difference is that you also need to prepare for mega luke, m-bro, m-kanga ect.
This metagame is not unique though to be viewed as so different than ubers.
I'm sick and tired of hearing that this is a different metagame. We have like seven pokemon that are now more viable. Mega Sceptile is still trash. mega pinsir is still outclassed by mega salamence. Ect.
What? If Mega Gengar was uncompetitive then it would be banned.
Show me an item that makes mega Gengar broken besides a 33% boost. Mega Salamence is better in general then Mega Gengar and yet we don't boost mega gengar.
Shadow tag isn't this instant breakage ability. It's one of the best abilities in the game, and makes mega gengar amazing.
You literally just lost this argument based on this statement alone. Go read this thread (<--clicky) if you don't believe that Mega Gengar is uncompetitive. It absolutely is uncompetitive, and wasn't banned from ubers because ubers was established to be a banlist that only bans things that literally invalidate the entire metagame (Mega Ray).
Honestly, Mega Gengar doesn't get an item that truly breaks it, but it already being mega evolved and having shadow tag on switching in takes it from banworthy and uncompetitive to an awful piece of shit that quite literally invalidates bulky mons. Having leftovers on a perishtrap set is big, and having a power boost from Life Orb, or hell, risk-free choice specs, is another huge boon. Before you argue against anything I just said, however, go read the thread from the suspect. Especially page 3.
You literally just lost this argument based on this statement alone. Go read this thread (<--clicky) if you don't believe that Mega Gengar is uncompetitive. It absolutely is uncompetitive, and wasn't banned from ubers because ubers was established to be a banlist that only bans things that literally invalidate the entire metagame (Mega Ray).
Honestly, Mega Gengar doesn't get an item that truly breaks it, but it already being mega evolved and having shadow tag on switching in takes it from banworthy and uncompetitive to an awful piece of shit that quite literally invalidates bulky mons. Having leftovers on a perishtrap set is big, and having a power boost from Life Orb, or hell, risk-free choice specs, is another huge boon. Before you argue against anything I just said, however, go read the thread from the suspect. Especially page 3.
After discussion in the om chat, i was convinced entirely that Mega Gengar was uncompetitive. On the other hand, people in the Ubers thread argued that it was not uncompetitive enough to warrant a ban. One of the main points was the turn of Mega-ing, and now I understand why it was quickbanned.
I'm convinced that actually unbanning and testing MMX/Y and the primals is might be better than restricting Salamence. I was led to believe that this metagame was going to be more balanced than ubers, due to 5 quickbans, but it appears that a big majority of the player-base does not want this. Yes, I still think that item mence is broken, but no one really cares, so I'm going to stop pushing for the restriction.
Then I'll do the same, I'd love to see a metagame with no unbans (Bar M-ray and M-gar. Primals were sort of tested when this wasnt Omotm, and yeah, scarf ogre will be annoying, but Lati@s are a thing, so is Primal Groudon
Gonna start the voting a day earlier, but basically, please vote Ban, No Ban, or Abstain in this thread. Please make sure that your reasoning is backed up with replays, calcs, tournaments, etc. If your vote lacks reasoning, it will not be counted.
I will end the voting voting tomorrow (April 17) at 12:00pm PST, so please vote by then.
1. Adamant is not a good set on Mega Salamence in Megamons. The standard Speed tier of Megamons is 110, and you obviously won't outspeed them if you run Adamant.
2. Unless you're the type to run Life Orb on Talonflame in OU, you DON'T want to carry Life Orb + Double Edge, as it will make you die so fast.
3. The main reason why I said no ban. There ARE some nice checks for Mega Salamence
Mega Aggron: The most obvious check for Mega Salamence. It can switch in to ANY of Mega Salamence's and retaliate with Avalance.
Mega Slowbro: This thing IS a check, idk why the hell you exclude this. The calc above already proves it. It LIVES a +1 Double-Edge and 1HKOs with Ice Beam. It's the most common switch ins to Mega Salamence because it CAN switch into almost all variants of Dragon Dance sets.
Mega Tyranitar: With 252 HP alone, no Defense investment, it LIVES a +1 Life Orb Earthquake and KO back with Stone Edge, Ice Beam or Ice Punch. it can switch to anything but Earthquake
Arceus-Steel: This thing ALSO lives a +1 Life Orb Earthquake, which means this is also a good check to Mega Salamence.
Skarmory: Pretty obvious for non Fire Blast variants. Don't say this thing is unviable, because this walls some nice things other than Mega Salamence.
Lugia: THIS is what I use to handle Mega Salamence. With max HP/Def and Multiscale, it can pretty much tank any hit and retaliate with Ice Beam.
Other ways to handle it?
Primal Groudon isn't a good switch in, but if it's healthy, it can Thunder Wave it. PRIORITIES revenges it if it's weakened, since it doesn't have any priority. Life Orb Mega Kangaskhan with Fake Out + Sucker Punch is a good one since it's enough to deal 75% damage, meaning it'll be killed after Stealth Rock.
These are just my arguments, but the one who decides is runbabyrun. Actually, runbabyrun, before banning things, you should decide your banning philosophy, whether it's OU or Ubers, because by Ubers banning philosophy (read in policy review), this thing is obviously not banworthy.
No Ban. Aggron-Mega
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 90-107 (26.1 - 31.1%) -- 7.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 133-158 (38.6 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Mega Aggron Avalanche vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 368-436 (110.8 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO Slowbro-Mega
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 253-298 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Mega Slowbro Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 356-420 (107.2 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I think that those are good enough reasons not to ban it. Just please end the argument.
