Sorry was busy I’ll calculate the votes!yo ImperialGamer517 could you at the very least close voting and start the next slate?
You can't break a tie that you already voted in.
You can't break a tie that you already voted in.
Ok from now on, I’ll break ties by the following method: Who got the most first place votes. If this is further a tie, then how higher ranked one was over the other in a vote.You can't break a tie that you already voted in.
I think you should link his postHi there! It seems like a lot happened while I wasn't looking at the thread, haha.
A couple of things to say:
kakaks - I would definitely prefer if you didn't give Dragapult Nasty Plot, either! Remember that Dragapult is still an OU-level threat and a powerful special attacker as it is, and it seems like it was carefully balanced around the fact that it can't raise its own Special Attack. In fact, one of its most common sets relies on combining the moves Will-o-Wisp and Hex to boost the power of just one of its special moves, and it has to repeat that process against every opponent it fights. Nasty Plot is a major upgrade from that, boosting the power of all of its special moves by the same amount, but also letting it keep that boost as long as it stays in battle.
In general, I think that giving Dragapult a way to raise its Special Attack at all is a bad idea - it's already a very strong Pokémon that's very carefully balanced, and even if you're careful with the balance of your own Mega Dragapult, there's no guarantee that regular Dragapult won't be broken by the addition. I would be cautious about giving it access to such a powerful boosting move!
EDIT - hey, while you're looking at this... I'm not sure if this is just something I overlooked the first time I read your post or if you just added it in your latest edit, but I don't think I'm okay with giving Shift Gear to Kommo-o, either. Please remove that as well! It does already have Dragon Dance, which I'm sure is more than good enough for your purposes.
I talked to FireByTheReins on the Discord server to explain this already, and they're happy with where their submission ended up and decided not to make any changes, but I also wanted to address the confusion around that submission!
It looks like War Incarnate was confused at first because they only changed two of their Mega Goodra's stats (Defense and Special Attack), so he thought it wasn't complete. However, they actually had followed all of the stat rules and had given it a +100 like they were supposed to do!
But in turn, when War Incarnate asked FireByTheReins to add the other stats, I think thought FireByTheReins thought he meant to add more to all of them in addition to what you already had.
That's why they asked "wdym other stats? you want me to break its stats?" - they had meant to leave the other stats unchanged, but then they thought War Incarnate was telling them their additions so far weren't enough. (And that's why they ended up with a BST of 755 in their next edit, haha.)
But actually, just for the record, the submission where you only changed Defense and Special Attack was just fine! There's even an official Mega Evolution that does the same thing - Mega Slowbro spends all 100 of its points on Defense and Special Attack and doesn't change any other stats. The important thing is just that the additions are balanced, no matter how many or how few stats they affect.
War Incarnate, if someone doesn't make a note of every stat, I think it would be best to assume that they mean to leave them the same as the base form! That's probably where this confusion started - they left them blank instead of writing out that they were the same, and then they just misunderstood you when you tried to point that out.
That said, I also appreciate that War Incarnate pointed out the Ability restrictions! It's always a good idea to read the first post before you try to participate in a thread like this - you would know all about the rules for submissions if you did, and then people wouldn't spend a whole page correcting you, haha.
In any case!! I'm glad that this has all been sorted out and that they're happy with their submission so far. In its current state, this:
is a totally fine submission by my standards! (As mentioned, I talked to FireByTheReins on the server, and it seems like they want to keep it like this!)
But then it's still worth noting that the one quoted in this post...
is also a valid submission!
Last tiny note:
ImperialGamer517 - Mega Evolved Pokémon other than Rayquaza can't hold items because they have Mega Stones! That's why I asked "are you sure? XP" about yours - it sounded like you expected Mega Goodra to hold a Choice Band or Choice Specs while it was Mega Evolved, but it already has to have a different item!
The user who brought up Mega Rayquaza later wasn't actually asking why Rayquaza was broken - they were trying to say the same thing: that your Goodra wouldn't be holding a Choice Band or Choice Specs, because Rayquaza is an exception among Mega Evolutions, and being that kind of exception turned out to be problematic.
Hopefully that makes more sense now, haha.
Edit:
Thank you so much, DrPumpkinz!! : D
Everyone should go read his post - he explained all of the rules super clearly and effectively, and I think that's a fantastic resource for any new submitters!
Orbeetle - 2
Also thanks for following the formatView attachment 262710
Could you at the very least make the ability limit 3? Orbeetle's lack of good abilities also hurts it so there's that, on top of the other shit it has to deal with.
Mega Corviknight
New Ability: Pressure / Unnerve / Mirror Armor ----> Judgment's Protection (Intimidate clone that lowers the opponent's highest attacking stat by 1 stage.)
New Typing: Steel / Flying
New Stats:
HP: 98 ----> 98
Attack: 87 ----> 120 (+33)
Defense: 107 ----> 147 (+40)
Special Attack: 53 ----> 53
Special Defense: 85 ----> 102 (+27)
Speed: 67 ----> 67
Base Stat Total: 495 ----> 595
New Moves: Close Combat (likely not going to use this but who the fuck cares)
Description: Mega Evolution causes its armor to become harder, thus the increased defense stats. Judgment's Protection further augments this, as now the opponent has to attack under a weakened attack stats. This also fits flavor-wise considering that it scares off any and all challengers.
The energy from mega evolution not only increased the range of Orbeetle's psychic power (now effective over a 20 mile radius, large enough to cover most of New York City... from almost anywhere in New York City) but it also made it much more effective, granting it total omniscience of everything in its range.Pokemon Shield said:It emits psychic energy to observe and study what's around it—and what's around it can include things over six miles away.
Umm can you simplify this? Posts shouldn’t be too long. Get to the point... Hey, you might recall that I thought the Ability limit system needed to be revised, but I didn't think it was worth contesting at the time because the submission that violated it was on the broken side anyway.
Here is where I make my pitch:
- Don't have rigid numerical Ability limits.
- Let people use common sense.
I think it's important to realize that Abilities are where the majority of freedom comes in a mod like this.
You can't give new moves without also changing how the base form works - see the previous slate, where I had to veto Nasty Plot Dragapult and Shell Smash Kommo-o, not because the Mega Evolutions were (necessarily) broken but because the submitters didn't take into account how much better the regular forms would also get. Abilities solve this problem by offering utility or a relevant role that only the Mega Evolution can get - they don't change the base form at all - and that's a really, really important kind of freedom for them to have.
Meanwhile, stats... only go so far - Mega Evolutions actually start with an inherent disadvantage to their base forms because they lack held items - you spend a significant chunk of your stat boosts just trying not to be outclassed by your base form, let alone improving on it! Abilities also affect this - just look how many Mega Evolutions have damage-boosting Abilities (like Aerilate or Tough Claws) so that they don't have to waste valuable stat points trying to get the same effect.
Aside from that, no Ability is inherently broken on any Pokémon - and Pokémon can be balanced around an Ability in different ways.
Just remember the Hydreigon slate - Mega Launcher was legal, and we had two submissions with Mega Launcher, but only one of them was well balanced in my opinion. Balance or lack of balance is not innate to Mega Launcher or innate to Hydreigon - it's something that depends on how careful you are when balancing a Pokémon that has Mega Launcher.
In the same vein, I had to veto a Mega Launcher Dragapult submission this time around, but I absolutely would have considered it balanced it if it had different stats, tier 3.5 Ability or not - the problem was its specific Special Attack stat in conjunction with Mega Launcher, not being Dragapult in conjunction with Mega Launcher.
And on that note, I still think Mold Breaker is one of the least threatening Abilities for the Dragapult by kakaks and that that one should have been allowed in the first place, which I said here in the thread.
Also consider how many official Mega Evolutions wouldn't even be allowed by your standards.
It seems like you're just deciding on Ability limits by taking whatever Abilities the Pokémon already has and seeing which one has the highest rank. However, if Mega Ampharos didn't exist, what if we had a slate for Ampharos?
You would give it an Ability limit of 2 because its Abilities are Static (2) and Plus (0), so no one would even be allowed to give it Mold Breaker (3.5). Does Mold Breaker make Mega Ampharos too strong? Definitely not! If anything, Ampharos was probably carried further by its stats and type change than its Ability. Read its analysis and just look how often Mold Breaker is called "not particularly useful."
If you have to limit Abilities at all, you should do it based on how much help the Pokémon needs to be good - "Orbeetle needs more help than most Pokémon" vs "Corviknight already has good stats and a good type, so it probably doesn't need as much help," for example.
However, really, I wouldn't even support that - it's just taking a control away from submitters and limiting their options in a way that... really doesn't help to create "balanced" Mega Evolutions at all. Personally, I don't even agree with how most of the Abilities on that list are ranked in the first place, and that's because that list wasn't made as a power ranking for a neutral context.
That list is how the teambuilder in Showdown knows which Ability to put as the default option for each Pokémon - Abilities are ranked based on how worthwhile they are on the Pokémon that have them, not how good they would be if you gave them all to the same Pokémon!
That's why you have things like Motor Drive being lower than Sap Sipper - most of the Pokémon with Motor Drive are Electric-types that already resist Electric, while Emolga, which is neutral to Electric and might particularly appreciate the immunity, has only Static as its other option. Static is ranked lower than Motor Drive, so Motor Drive is "recommended" for Emolga anyway and doesn't need to be any higher.
Meanwhile, many more of the Pokémon with Sap Sipper benefit from the added immunity, and the ones that don't have an even-higher-ranked Ability or an almost-useless one. Sap Sipper isn't a better Ability than Motor Drive on everything - it just has a higher rank because that's how it compares to other Abilities on the Pokémon that currently have it. If you had a Ground-type that could choose between Sap Sipper and Motor Drive, sure, Sap Sipper is better - but what about a Flying-type? Wouldn't that rather run Motor Drive? And Motor Drive is certainly more powerful on a Flying-type than Levitate.
It gets even more misleading and ineffective as a system when you allow variations of Abilities. Part of why Levitate is so high-ranking is that Ground is such a valuable immunity to have - it's actually the only type-based immunity Ability that doesn't have an extra benefit, and it's still an incredible Ability. (On that note, only Bronzong and Weezing have to choose between Levitate and something else in the first place, and Levitate is pretty much always the right choice for those two. Honestly, I'm surprised it's not rank 4.5 just to get it above Neutralizing Gas and Misty Surge...) But what happens when people can make type-based variations of any Ability they want? Isn't "Motor Drive but for Ground immunity" strictly better than vanilla Levitate? Or what if someone wants to make a Levitate clone for some type other than Ground - why would a variation of Levitate be ranked higher than a variation of Motor Drive for the same type?
Conclusion: please let submitters choose any Ability and let them be balanced on a case-by-case basis, and just trust that it will be possible to weed out overpowered submissions. I do not think this is an effective rule or a necessary one to enforce. Other mods, like Megamax, have no system like this at all, and... you'd be surprised by how many of the submissions that made it through to that were considered underpowered and have since needed to be buffed. People don't try to make something broken every time you give them an inch - honestly, telling them exactly how far they're allowed to go is more likely to make them try push those limits than telling them to be creative.
He's saying it doesn't make sense to use the ability rankings for this because they're not ranked on their strength in a vacuum, and your system for choosing what a Pokemon's ability limit should be makes even less sense.Umm can you simplify this? Posts shouldn’t be too long. Get to the point
Well I’m basing the ability rankings based on the highest ranking of the Pokemon’s ability. For example, I put Corviknight ranked 3.5 because its highest ranked ability is Mirror Armor, which is ranked 3.5He's saying it doesn't make sense to use the ability rankings for this because they're not ranked on their strength in a vacuum, and your system for choosing what a Pokemon's ability limit should be makes even less sense.
...the fuckShould I change ability rankings to the lowest ranked ability of each Pokémon?
i kinda think it's your fault as well for not getting to the point of things. I appreciate the explanations and all, but sometimes i think explanations do more harm than good and this is one of those situations....
...
...... I'm just going to leave the council now.
So more OU viable Pokemon should have abilities ranked lower, while unviables should be ranked higher?...the fuck
NO, what he said was to base it off of what was needed to make that pokemon viable. Please get this in your head.
i kinda think it's your fault as well for not getting to the point of things. I appreciate the explanations and all, but sometimes i think explanations do more harm than good and this is one of those situations.