Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

[Martin]

Honestly I think Alola Persian has more potential as a (Z-)Parting Shot abuser than Pangoro does. 115 speed, Fur Coat, Taunt, STAB Foul Play are all awesome assets and make it a lot better than the shitmon I was expecting it to be after seeing its stats. I was messing around with it yesterday and managed to Z-Parting Shot my Mega Charizard X (RIP) back to full after it used a few Flare Blitzes to soften up the opponent's team and it was one of the most decisive Pokemon victories I've ever had.

Also, does Z-Parting Shot restore status? It did when I used it yesterday, but I feel like that might be a bug. I'm pretty sure I've only seen it described as healing HP.

Oh Alolan Persian gets it?

In that case then yeah it's probably directly outclasses Pangoro in the role.

 

[TheOthin]

The whole foundation of Smogon seems pretty arbitrary and open to discussion, doesn't make it a bad system.

And simple solutions aren't always the best ones. I'd have to read the threads leading to the BP ban again, but I can vaguely remember that BP chains seemed to be broken even if you were to ban Espeon, so that doesn't work. Which leaves a full BP ban, screwing over a dozen Pokemon that make good use of the move but aren't broken themselves. The current solution already avoids all the issues, it leaves maximal freedom and a healthy meta. If it ain't broken don't fix it.

You think it's hypocritical to complex ban BP and then oppose an Aegislash complex ban. That's reasonable. Honestly you're absolutely right, it is hypocritical, but it's also convenient. More complex bans lead to more work for the mods and polarise the community, so why not enjoy the status quo? Keep the BP ban as it is and reject weird complex bans in the future. Seems fine to me.

PS: Sorry for the late answer, was grocery shopping.

Even if the chains would still have been broken with banning Espeon, that still leaves the option of banning a couple of other Pokemon (ex. Mega Absol?) to keep them in check. If it would have required banning enough Pokemon that it would have been better to just ban Baton Pass entirely, that just means banning Baton Pass would have been the right call. Banning a move for its broken uses and thereby also taking it away from Pokemon that use it fairly isn't any worse than banning a Pokemon for its broken sets and thereby also taking away its non-broken sets. Being internally consistent is important, and a lack of internal consistency is certainly something worth fixing.

There's no sense in going back and fixing the complex ban that already exists in Gen 6, but there's no sense in it being brought over into Gen 7 when there are perfectly serviceable simple bans that can address the issue just fine. And as long as it stays in current use, it'll make it harder to shoot down future complex bans that are just as bad and arbitrary.

(No worries about the timing. Whether or not to respond and when to do so isn't anyone else's business, and that didn't even take that long.)

 

[Kejmur]

Oh Alolan Persian gets it?

In that case then yeah it's probably directly outclasses Pangoro in the role.

Silvally also gets it with whatever typing you may need. 95/95/95 bulk with good defensive type should let you do it safely, although I would still pick Persian in pretty much all cases anyway. But this option is up as well. I wish this Pokemon had better movepool though...

EDIT: Yeah, my bad. Still he can use it as an option, 95/95/95 is more then solid. My brain derped hard right there.

 

[Nighty]

Silvally also gets it with whatever typing you may need. 95/95/95 bulk with good defensive type (let's say Fairy) should let you do it safely, although I would still pick Persian in pretty much all cases anyway. But this option is up as well. I wish this Pokemon had better movepool though...

Silvally can't change it's type and hold the Darkinium-Z for Z-Parting Shot at the same time, though. You're stuck with Normal Silvally.

 

[Super Muchacho]

I just realized how balanced gen 6 ou was.
The whole Meta builds around Aegislash. And you are forced to do so. I feel like we need to ban a lot pokemon to balance the meta. But im afraid to play the balanced OU in a few weeks. What are your bann fovourites except from the obvious stuff and why? If you would have to make a ranking. Im curious if you made the same expierience like me.

Also what dou guys think about this pysuki set? In my opinion it can get very strong later. In stall teams with Heal Bell Support. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-479174299

 

[Taylor]

I really like how you can just Choice Scarf physical giants like Kartana/Phero. and Beast Mode to sweep/clean-up with. Choice Specs Psyshock and M-Metagross under Psychic Terrain also deeply wound most teams, and Choice Band Hoop-U/Genesect really complement offensive teams. I am impressed with some of the new release and its great fun so far!

Also I think Tapu-Koko / Thundurus / M-Manetric, when it is released, will be a strong core in my opinion. But there's still lots new additions to play around and the flow of the game has picked up the pace deerly since XYZ.

Hopes forward lol...

 

[cmurph]

Such a shame about the Gengar nerf. Seemed totally unnecessary. Gengar's been OU for 6 generations straight I believe and it sucks that that streak is probably going to come to an end. I have similar feelings about the Talonflame nerf. Such a cool, unique, fun to use pokemon and one of the few Gen VI pokemon that was both good and usable in OU. Shame to see it fall by the wayside. I'm sure both will be forces to be reckoned with in the lower tiers though, so not the end of the world I guess.

As for the metagame, I just started playing today and was able to get the hang of things pretty quick. I'm at 1400 or so right now after 30 games using what's basically just a repurposed XY team from the Aegislash era. Speaking of Aegislash, I'd definitely say it's the best pokemon in the tier right now. The metagame is currently chock full of fairy and bug types, and Aegislash has a field day with them. Steels and poisons in general are very good. I've also had a lot of success with Excadrill. Scarf Exca is a great check to a lot of the Tapus as well as an amazing late game cleaner.

 

[konstantellos]

Why is Zygarde so underrated? I think it is more broken tha Pheromosa and will be banned.

Specially Defensive Thousand Arrows, Coil, Substitute, Glare is very difficult to deal with and too easy to use.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-479285806

I also tried Electric Z-Conversion Porygon-Z with Tapu Koko (weakens Porygon's checks) and it was fun. I'd also try Z-Happy-Hour Jirachi to see how broken it is but I can't properly test it until Aegislash is banned.

 

[Callmeyeshua]

No pokebank stifles team building to a insane degree. this shit is almost unplayable atm with every team being a aegis/phero fest with a lot of good mons that could help the problem like the charizards, lopunny, m-swampert, m-venu being not allowed. It really is pretty bad to play right now.

 

[Siggu]

With those Mega Stones that are unavailable until PokeBank allows transfers to Sun and Moon, this means the fastest Dragon Dancer (not counting non-Mega Charizard because no one is ever going to use it) is... Flygon. Enjoy that niche while Mega Charizard-X is away, buddy!

On the topic of Z-Conversion... I think Electric is the best typing for Porygon-Z. Ghost is not exactly a good thing because it lacks any move to deal with Dark-types (other than HP Fighting, which only really harms Bisharp, but that means you have to carry it, instead of Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam coverage is too good to pass up, and you are spending the Adaptability boost on Hidden Power), whereas it has Ice Beam to take care of any Ground-type switch-in. Tapu Koko can give Thunderbolt a boost for Porygon-Z to clean up. Perhaps a Terrain Extender may be a fine choice in that case?

 

[Callmeyeshua]

With those Mega Stones that are unavailable until PokeBank allows transfers to Sun and Moon, this means the fastest Dragon Dancer (not counting non-Mega Charizard because no one is ever going to use it) is... Flygon. Enjoy that niche while Mega Charizard-X is away, buddy!

On the topic of Z-Conversion... I think Electric is the best typing for Porygon-Z. Ghost is not exactly a good thing because it lacks any move to deal with Dark-types, whereas it has Ice Beam to take care of any Ground-type switch-in. Tapu Koko can give Thunderbolt a boost for Porygon-Z to clean up. Perhaps a Terrain Extender may be a fine choice in that case?

terrain extendor isn't working properly atm. I've tried it with both koko and bulu and it still just lasts 5

 

[Höhe]

With those Mega Stones that are unavailable until PokeBank allows transfers to Sun and Moon, this means the fastest Dragon Dancer (not counting non-Mega Charizard because no one is ever going to use it) is... Flygon. Enjoy that niche while Mega Charizard-X is away, buddy!

...actually, Zygarde 10% with his 115 Base Speed is the fastest Dragon Dancer at the moment. Also gets those delicious 1000 Arrows.

 

[Callmeyeshua]

Honestly I would boot phero before aegis. Theres more than enough new toys that can take it on than phero. Like Aegislash is just immense glue but its not going to completely decide a game if you have a well built team. Phero can get one kill and run through a whole team. I kind of wiped my hands with it being OU worthy when it got a kill on one of my rain dance teams and preceeded to outspeed and kill every thing rofl. Just way too fast, way too strong and makes anything that isn't hyper offense or pure stall very very difficult to play with.

 

[Kakimori]

Speaking of Aegislash, I'd definitely say it's the best pokemon in the tier right now. The metagame is currently chock full of fairy and bug types, and Aegislash has a field day with them.

Is it just me or does it seem like if Aegislash were actually the best pokemon in the tier, the metagame would not be chock full of fairy and bug types?

"Man, Aegislash is just so overbearing, guys!"
"I know what to do. Let's fill our team with fairy and bug types to counter him!"

...said no one ever. What this actually signifies is that Aegislash, while good, is not at the moment having a particularly large influence on the metagame and especially not on teambuilding. Like November Blue said, Aegislash is superglue right now, not centralizing.

It's a strong anti-meta defensive check that will do some amount of damage to something on your team before it goes down. That's all.

 

[xJownage]

Honestly, Zygarde is the most broken thing in the meta. What feasibly stops this if it has any reasonably good support? Let alone what happens when it is paired with z-latios memento.

 

[Callmeyeshua]

Is it just me or does it seem like if Aegislash were actually the best pokemon in the tier, the metagame would not be chock full of fairy and bug types?

"Man, Aegislash is just so overbearing, guys!"
"I know what to do. Let's fill our team with fairy and bug types to counter him!"

...said no one ever. What this actually signifies is that Aegislash, while good, is not at the moment having a particularly large influence on the metagame and especially not on teambuilding. Like November Blue said, Aegislash is superglue right now, not centralizing.

It's a strong anti-meta defensive check that will do some amount of damage to something on your team before it goes down. That's all.

I agree. While hes been a lot of my teams, its mostly too form a strong core than as a wincon or even a huge proponent of me winning. He has quite a few things that can set up on him and instantly make him switch out now. You have a pokemon with 173 sp.atk now, aegislash isn't even walling everything like it used to. If phero leaves he'll still be played but I doubt hes on every other team. ATM his defensive utility is just too much to pass up with the myriad of fairy, and u turn spam going on.

 

[Callmeyeshua]

Honestly, Zygarde is the most broken thing in the meta. What feasibly stops this if it has any reasonably good support? Let alone what happens when it is paired with z-latios memento.

I've been thinking of a core for this and ph.def aegi/tapu bulu/sp.def zy seems utterly stupid.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Hi, since there is no good cores thread opened yet I'll just post this here

Zygarde + Fini

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Toxic
- Thousand Arrows

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Scald
- Moonblast
- Taunt

First of all, Zygarde is fucking amazing lol. Dragon Dance sets are so threatening especially when you only need to run 1 move for coverage in Thousand Arrows. Substitute gains free turns on Pokemon such as Toxapex. The one huge problem with is that it can struggle to find free switches as the Pokemon it wants to switch into all have ways of crippling it with status. So I've been using Tapu-Fini to let it get switchins versus Pokemon like the previously mentioned Toxapex and Rotom-W. Tapu-Fini also provides really nice defensive synergy with Zygarde covering with huge weakness to Ice (mostly to just check Weavile the most prominent Ice Shard user.) and checking Scarf Latios which is rising in some popularity. Although those perks are really nice I believe the main reason to use is because of Misty Terrain like I said, gives it free switches and makes it so it doesnt have to come aftef something does and or free switch. Meta is so fresh and even though I think phero and Aegi are pretty op everything including building feels new and enjoyable. Here are two recent replays of Fini supporting Zygarde in the sweep.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-479351751
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-479341430

 

[Shirayuki]

With those Mega Stones that are unavailable until PokeBank allows transfers to Sun and Moon, this means the fastest Dragon Dancer (not counting non-Mega Charizard because no one is ever going to use it) is... Flygon. Enjoy that niche while Mega Charizard-X is away, buddy!

On the topic of Z-Conversion... I think Electric is the best typing for Porygon-Z. Ghost is not exactly a good thing because it lacks any move to deal with Dark-types (other than HP Fighting, which only really harms Bisharp, but that means you have to carry it, instead of Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam coverage is too good to pass up, and you are spending the Adaptability boost on Hidden Power), whereas it has Ice Beam to take care of any Ground-type switch-in. Tapu Koko can give Thunderbolt a boost for Porygon-Z to clean up. Perhaps a Terrain Extender may be a fine choice in that case?

The current Pokemon Bank doesn't allow items to be uploaded so unless that changes we will be without those megas until either an event or the next gen 7 game. The Mega Charizards are two of the Mega Pokemon available in SM though so they should be allowed though.

 

[Callmeyeshua]

So I complimented the Zygarde/Aegi/Bulu with

M-Scizor/Rotom-Wash/nihelgo

and currently am 12-0 with it...truly a ridiculous core it seems like. I can see Zygarde becoming very very important in OU. I don't think its necessarily too broken right now just super strong. I could M-Gardevoir raising up if Aegi gets banned and this stays. It would have to watch out for thousand arrows but once it gets a sub up this would be one of the few things that outspeeds, has pixilate hyper voice, and could ohko it (I'm pretty sure it would kill after a sub regardless of sp.def investment but would have to do calcs.)

 

[Callmeyeshua]

These are the sets I'm using for the zy core

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 252 Hp/252 Sp.Def
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Coil
- Glare
- Thousand Arrows

Bulu @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Hp/ 184 Atk/ 72 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Wood Hammer
- Brick Break

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability:Stance Change
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Hp
Jolly Nature
- Kings Shield
- Shadow Ball
- Gyro Ball
- Shadow Sneak

I run bulk up on Bulu to beat opposing Zygardes and sub synergizes very well with his ability. sp.def Zy is a monster and with glare it pushes it over the top imo. Bring it in on something that it walls, sub, glare, and profit. Aegislash set is standard but its not like hes all that flexible.

 

[rau]

GRANTEED (Zygarde) @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Coil
- Thousand Arrows

This is the only Zygarde set you'll need. The best one there is. Honestly the fact that this thing gets so much HP and already has a tool as Thousand Arrows at its disposal, letting you pretty much hit everything is just mind boggling about how effective this is. Honestly with this mon alone I could just easily peak the ladder as is due to its nigh independent on just 6-0'ing some teams. You get to set up on so much its pretty fucking stupid in my opinion. While other sets like DD are cool, taking advantage of that THICC bulk you have will let you be much more efficient with your sweep. You can honestly just pair it with other bulky stuff like Toxapex and Steel-types and just have a field day with it all.

calcs

all these are zygarde-complete. these are mostly from experience too.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 196-232 (30.8 - 36.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 328-390 (51.5 - 61.3%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 151-182 (23.7 - 28.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 203-244 (31.9 - 38.3%) -- 1.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 367-432 (57.7 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery[=hide]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-479411598 Here's the only example I could remember to gather because I'm a huge idiot. Basically, me thinking that Specs Hoopa was gonna 6-0 me but then I remember I have a God, stop crying, and win.

edit: proof of peak with the God.

e3: Just to keep it clear, yes Substitute is good. The reason I like this set more than sub is its ability to sustain itself and doesn't get cripled by status (Toxic Spikes has been a pretty popular strategy in the current meta bc Toxapex). Besides, RestTalk Zygarde beats any Sub variant that lacks Dragon Tail (unless you get crit, then lol).

 

[Kakimori]

Yeah, you can't call getting a flinch after spamming Dark Pulse 5 times hax. More like "statistically probable". And if it wasn't a flinch it would have been a crit eventually.

Good demonstration of Zygarde's power :)

 

[GlassVeins]

Hey, just a thought: BD Azu will be great once the meta calms down a bit, because of the awesome utility of Z-belly drum. It's like the sitrus berry, but way better!

 

[DreamScream]

So before Pheromosa, Genesect and Aegi inevitably get banned, I wanted to talk about Alolan Marowak because it actually puts in a ton of work. It has a monstrous attack stat thanks to the thick club and great coverage, with dual stabs and eq. It also hard walls a lot of common mons like the ones that will likely be banned very soon minus Aegi (but it can't switch in at all and most run no speed anyways), Tapu Koko (best mon that won't get banned IMO), Mega Scizor, Mega Manectric, and Xurkitree. It also serves as a soft check to Celesteela, as most seem to run Heavy Slam + flamethrower as their attacking moves, and 2HKOs many common walls, such as Toxapex, Rotom-W, Clefable, and any other steel types. Really the only mons this beast fears are Lando-T, Garchomp, and Hippo. Shadow Bone also bypassed Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin. This thing is great against the hyper offense running around and serves as a decent wall breaker against balance. Anyways, here's the set I've been using and some fun calcs.

Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Bone
- Fire Punch/Flare Blitz
- Earthquake/Bonemerang
- Thunder Punch/Knock Off/Iron Head

Offensive Calcs

252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 151-178 (49.8 - 58.7%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 231-273 (58.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 184-218 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery (sets up into eq and has chance for defense drop)
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Fire Punch vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 258-304 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 166-196 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defensive Calcs

+1 8 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Marowak: 68-81 (23.3 - 27.8%) -- 82.1% chance to 4HKO
4 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Marowak: 66-78 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- 39.1% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 120 HP / 4 Def Marowak: 60-70 (20.6 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Marowak: 82-97 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
44 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 120 HP / 4 Def Marowak: 44-52 (15.1 - 17.8%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zapdos Energy Ball vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Marowak: 95-112 (32.6 - 38.4%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO (no one runs LO, just proving a point at how good Marowak is at walling electric types)

Replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-479326427

When the dust settles, this thing may very well go to a lower tier, but it is the best offensive electric check in the meta. As long as Tapu Koko is in OU, Alolan Marowak will be plenty viable.

Also as a side note, Alolan Muk is a surprisingly good tank. It has a fantastic defensive typing and access to priority, pursuit, and knock off. Great Lati counter and fares well against Tapu Lele and Mega Zam. It is definitely much more of a niche mon and will be in a lower tier, but it is definitely viable and can be very deadly if paired with a good core.