Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

[Helldoom]

open day for any steal is my answer

Aegi checks/counters a lot of mons but it doesn't match up that well against most steel types.

 

[13_luckynumber]

Toxapex is ridiculous. It checks/ counters so so many threats with ease: Pheromosa, Genesect, Aegislash, Greninja, Mega Mawile, Manaphy, Tornadus-T, Keldeo, Mega Scizor, Weavile, Clefable, Heatran, Mega Venusaur, Bisharp, Margearna, and some others i'm missing.

It pairs so well with Alolan Marowak to deal with Electric coverage/ STAB from Margearna, Xurkitree. They check plenty of the same stuff like Pheromosa, Genesect, Heatran, Clefable so overloading them is hard

Celesteela/ Mantine are nice options to take on Psychic/ Ground coverage for the duo above too.

 

[Kakimori]

I'm surprised at this, but the consensus of the ladder so far seems to be to forego Haze on Toxapex for Baneful Bunker. Toxic Spikes/Baneful Bunker/Scald/Recover is the most common set I'm seeing.

I have not yet been satisfied with the performance of any Golisopod I've seen. I don't think people are using it in a way that maximizes its potential. It may be that it's the sort of pokemon you need to actively build your team around, it may be that you need to make smart plays to get something done with it, or it may be that it's just not OU material. But the vast majority of Golisopods I've seen have done a fat lot of nothing. I'm convinced this is a good pokemon, so I'm hoping to see a consensus strong set for it in the near future.

 

[November Blue]

aegislash, however, is just a little TOO good. It checks FAR to many mons, and is only gotten around by a select few mons. And even then, you have to be extremely careful to play around King's shield. Don't have enough experience with Greninja or Pheromosa yet to make a call there.

I don't agree with this. Stop hyping Aegislash, it's really not that crazy in this meta.

There are lots of ways to deal with it, including:

Earthquake to avoid King's Shield
A special attacker
Dark-types
Foul Play
Mandibuzz
Alolan Persian (Fur Coat, Taunt, Foul Play, Parting Shot)
Bewear (Fluffy, Shadow Ball immunity, Earthquake)
Hoopa
Genesect
Tyranitar (depends on who does/has what - Sacred Sword, Pursuit, Fire Blast from either can win)
Specially defensive snek Zygarde can use it as setup bait, in some cases
That's just off the top of my head.

I really wish people would stop whining about Aegislash like it's some sort of stifling, oppressive force. My initial impression of it is that it fits into the tier quite well; this gen is better-equipped to handle it than the previous gen was.

Don't confuse effectiveness with brokenness.

As a player, I feel pressured to use Aegislash because of Pheromosa. Toxapex and Alolan Marowak work too, of course. The point is that, if you're seeing Aegislash everywhere, it's because it's such a good blanket check for so many dangerous mons, not because it's an OP sword that wins games.

This might just be me, but I love the mindgames that come with King's Shield. It really lets me get into my opponent's head; will they use King's Shield? Will they attack? Will they switch?

I'd be sad to see it get banned, honestly.

 

[Helldoom]

I don't agree with this. Stop hyping Aegislash, it's really not that crazy in this meta.

There are lots of ways to deal with it, including:

Earthquake to avoid King's Shield
A special attacker
Dark-types
Foul Play
Mandibuzz
Alolan Persian (Fur Coat, Taunt, Foul Play, Parting Shot)
Bewear (Fluffy, Shadow Ball immunity, Earthquake)
Hoopa
Genesect
Tyranitar (depends on who does/has what - Sacred Sword, Pursuit, Fire Blast from either can win)
Specially defensive snek Zygarde can use it as setup bait, in some cases
That's just off the top of my head.

I really wish people would stop whining about Aegislash like it's some sort of stifling, oppressive force. My initial impression of it is that it fits into the tier quite well; this gen is better-equipped to handle it than the previous gen was.

Don't confuse effectiveness with brokenness.

As a player, I feel pressured to use Aegislash because of Pheromosa. Toxapex and Alolan Marowak work too, of course. The point is that, if you're seeing Aegislash everywhere, it's because it's such a good blanket check for so many dangerous mons, not because it's an OP sword that wins games.

This might just be me, but I love the mindgames that come with King's Shield. It really lets me get into my opponent's head; will they use King's Shield? Will they attack? Will they switch?

I'd be sad to see it get banned, honestly.

Agreed, Aegi is stupidly good but that doesn't mean it's broken. It's not a mon that easily sweeps through teams or is extremely difficult to take out.

 

[Frozocrone]

I've been using this to pretty good effect:

Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Waterfall
- Substitute

Substitute MGyarados puts in a lot of work. Get's through Mimikyu's Disguise, Toxapex can't do anything aside poison when you're +6, Celesteel is set up fodder. The only real threat to stopping you is Tapu Fini/Azumarill, which is why you don't set up before they are there (also why I've partnered with a Band Bulu, but I might tweak the EV's to out run Azumarill since I was suspiciously outsped which cost me a game).

Scarf Mele and Magerna can be somewhat of an issue, but Aegislash is a blanket check to both and a whole lot more.

 

[X5Dragon]

Alolan Rain :)

team

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunder/thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Dazzling Gleam
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Raichu-Alola @ Aloraichium Z
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Ice]/volt switch
- Surf

Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Hurricane
- Scald
- U-turn
- Roost

Latios (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Draco Meteor
- Defog
- Surf

Kartana @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Smart Strike
- Sacred Sword
- Swords Dance

Pinsir-Mega @ Pinsirite
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Quick Attack
- Return

I'm sure this can be tweaked a bit but basically I'm having fun surfing the high seas, the overlapping of Electric Terrain and Rain is so wonderful, you got over powered water, flying and electric moves coming at you. It also makes nice use of volt switching to your relevant pokemon. Kartana comes and feeds off the weakned mons and just basically sweeps at the end.

Edit: You can feed off other rain teams it seems lel:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-479689259

 

[HailFall]

Im surprised but landorus actually seems pretty balanced. Might just be because the teams it preys on (balance) arent that common but at least for now its pretty much a non-issue.

Celesteela is literal flames oml. Ive been using this set infernal told me about and its literally the most obnoxious thing to deal with in the world. Checks tons of mons and has great self sustain. Bulkier than skarm specially and just a great all around mon.

Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Flamethrower
- Heavy Slam

checks landorus, diancie, latios, magearna, etc etc and has an above ferrothorn level of annoyingness. Great mon.

 

[PShine]

I take it the "Soul Dew doesn't exist yet" Song-and-Dance is happening again right? I think it could be useful on Lati@s Defog sets, since most of the time they only use their STABs. Especially with Latias, who gets to survive longer now that Life Orb isn't taking away her health.

 

[Subject 18]

Soul Dew does exist, it's just bad now which is why you don't see it used. I tested it on a few teams and it's really weak, Life Orb/Specs are do much better since you need the damage they provide.

 

[KaioNabuco]

I've been wondering if someone has tested Specs Swellow. I know it'll be great in lower tiers, but might be fun to use it right now. Boomburst really hurts, and Heat Wave can deal with Aegislash.

I take it the "Soul Dew doesn't exist yet" Song-and-Dance is happening again right? I think it could be useful on Lati@s Defog sets, since most of the time they only use their STABs. Especially with Latias, who gets to survive longer now that Life Orb isn't taking away her health.

The thing is: STAB-moves-only Lati@s are not that common anymore since they get outsped by Pheromosa and totally walled by Aegislash. I've seen some Latios running things like Shadow Ball now, and some don't even carry both STAB moves. I dunno if full support Latias would work, but in that case, it wouldn't need Soul Dew.

 

[Psychic Whip]

I honestly don't feel that genesect is very OP. There are quite a few mons that can sit on it, toxipex, mantine, defensive gyarados, etc. aegislash, however, is just a little TOO good. It checks FAR to many mons, and is only gotten around by a select few mons. And even then, you have to be extremely careful to play around King's shield. Don't have enough experience with Greninja or Pheromosa yet to make a call there.

Genesect has the option of running Thunderbolt to deal with Gyara and Mantine. When Pheromosa gets banned, which is probably the first ban we might see, Genesect's usage should increase and that might lead to it getting banned too.
Although, I agree that when in comparison to Aegislash and Pheromosa it is not as defining right now.

 

[UltiMario]

I'm going to ask a serious question here: Why is Shadow Tag still banned?

If somebody responds to this post with "it was uncompetitive" that's an actual joke, because Swagger came back.

Shadow Tag was probably one of the biggest stretches we've done for a ban in a while, mainly because we decided we needed to choose between banning it and Sab, and then in the long run we banned Sab in ORAS anyways. On top of that, Dugtrio is a significantly better trapper than Gothitelle at this point and it's not getting day 0 quickbanned. There's an extreme inconsistency in here somewhere, and Gothitelle is clearly not as strong as a lot of the other toys that were given a chance in the current OU meta (Gene, Aegis).

I really can only explain the Shadow Tag initial ban in Gen 7 with bias. It's less powerful than other tools that dropped and it's obviously less "uncompetitive" than Swagger. There is no reason, by any objective, unbiased point of view that Shadow Tag should not currently be allowed in the tier, but here we are.

 

[Funbot28]

.
What I like is that Clef is not that relevant anymore, M-Mawile is gold and I don't need water/dark resists, bisharp could be Nice actually

Just wanted to say say that Mega Mawile is not available to be used rn cause they can't find it's mega stone in game so rip

 

[M BLADE]

I don't know is this is a decent option or not, but Porygon-Z-Conversion (nice name btw) can turn Porygon into any a typing you want while giving +1 to ALL of it's stats.

Seems like a good trade. Adaptability Ice Beam/T-Bolt/Dark Pulse anyone?

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

While everyone crying to ban Aegi or Pheromosa, I'll now say that Zygarde-C IS the most broken mon currently and it should be the first one to go. It's like allowing a mon with above Giratina level of bulk, can set up AND sweep with a move that bypass immunities. It's just nearly unstoppable because it easily survive Ice Beams and not getting 2HKO'd by nearly anything. It easily fits the Uber Defensive criteria, "a pokemon is uber if, in common condition, able to wall significant portion of metagame." Seriously next to nothing breaks this even with Ice moves and it needs either a powerful Ice move (at least on level of Life Orb Pheromosa's Ice Beam to 2HKO) or a special method to actually break it (I used Trick Specs Hoopa-U).

I'll post calcs if needed for proof but I am kinda busy rn.

 

[Helldoom]

Thanks to the introduction of Z-moves Aegislash actually gets a super strong physical ghost move in Never-Ending-Nightmare (140 BP). This makes it much easier to break teams after a swords dance.

Aegislash @ Ghostium-Z
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Shadow Claw
- Sacred Sword

This set easily destroys a lot of mons that counter special sets (Toxapex, Hippowdon, Celesteela etc.). Some calcs against physical walls:
- +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Never-Ending Nightmare vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 297-351 (97.6 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
- +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Never-Ending Nightmare vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 357-421 (85 - 100.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Never-Ending Nightmare vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 316-373 (94.6 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Never-Ending Nightmare vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 343-405 (85.3 - 100.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Never-Ending Nightmare vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Scizor-Mega: 316-373 (92.1 - 108.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[PK Gaming]

If you want to see firsthand how Zygarde-C plays out, blunder and cbb run through the ladder with it

It's equal parts terrifying and equal parts hysterical

 

[Höhe]

Ugh, I just hope they won't blanket ban Zygarde as a whole. Power Construct is the thing that makes him broken, and I agree that it should be banned as soon as possible. But I think Zygarde (both 10 and 50%) could be very nice and fun to use mons in OU even without Power Construct now that they get Thousand Arrows.

 

[onlyheretocomplain]

Thanks to the introduction of Z-moves Aegislash actually gets a super strong physical ghost move in Never-Ending-Nightmare (140 BP). This makes it much easier to break teams after a swords dance.

View attachment 73911
Aegislash @ Ghostium-Z
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Shadow Claw
- Sacred Sword

This set easily destroys a lot of mons that counter special sets (Toxapex, Hippowdon, Celesteela etc.). Some calcs against physical walls:
- +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Never-Ending Nightmare vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 297-351 (97.6 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
- +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Never-Ending Nightmare vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 357-421 (85 - 100.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Never-Ending Nightmare vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 316-373 (94.6 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Never-Ending Nightmare vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 343-405 (85.3 - 100.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Never-Ending Nightmare vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Scizor-Mega: 316-373 (92.1 - 108.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Looks really easy to revenge kill without King's Shield.

 

[Helldoom]

Looks really easy to revenge kill without King's Shield.

Well the goal of this set is to break through slower defensive teams. You could use more speed to outspeed certain defensive mons or even go jolly. But even against offensive teams you almost always get a kill with Never-ending-Nightmare or possibly sweep with shadow sneak late game.

 

[New World Order]

Hoopa-U is such an underappreciated threat right now. So many slow passive teams out there are clean 2HKO'd by the combination of Hyperspace Fury+Zen Headbutt+Gunk Shot+Drain Punch and is one of the only wallbreakers that does not care about all the Protect-esque moves flying about out there. The only issue is that this thing has difficulty switching in, so it's a good idea to either pair it with some slow Volt-turners to bring him in safely or a bulky boosting sweeper to bait a Haze for a free switchin.

 

[Goodstyle]

Ok, Zygarde needs to go. Holy mother of God is it overpowered.

 

[OverlordDerp]

Ok, Zygarde needs to go. Holy mother of God is it overpowered.

To think, just two weeks ago, no sane person would have made this claim.

Pokemon is weird, man.

 

[Ajwf]

We knew about the form from trailers but no one thought he'd GAIN base stat HP. It seemed more likely he, like every other form in existence, would simply keep HP stats and gain elsewhere. The HP added was thought to be a heal.