Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

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Is it just me or does it seem like if Aegislash were actually the best pokemon in the tier, the metagame would not be chock full of fairy and bug types?

"Man, Aegislash is just so overbearing, guys!"
"I know what to do. Let's fill our team with fairy and bug types to counter him!"

...said no one ever. What this actually signifies is that Aegislash, while good, is not at the moment having a particularly large influence on the metagame and especially not on teambuilding. Like November Blue said, Aegislash is superglue right now, not centralizing.

It's a strong anti-meta defensive check that will do some amount of damage to something on your team before it goes down. That's all.
Maybe we define "best pokemon in the tier" differently. For one, i doesn't mean "most used pokemon in the tier". The tier is chock full of fairy and bug types not because they are objectively better than aegislash, but because 7th gen introduced a lot of new fairy and bug types, and there's a tremendous amount of "shiny new toy syndrome" going on
 
Maybe we define "best pokemon in the tier" differently. For one, i doesn't mean "most used pokemon in the tier". The tier is chock full of fairy and bug types not because they are objectively better than aegislash, but because 7th gen introduced a lot of new fairy and bug types, and there's a tremendous amount of "shiny new toy syndrome" going on
I think Pheromosa, Buzzwole, Golisopod, Magearna, and the Tapus are more than just "shiny new toy syndrome". Besides, when it comes to OU, it makes no sense to even talk about what's "objectively better" than what, especially when the Pokemon are of different types. You might say that Kyogre is "objectively better" than Politoad, but it doesn't even make sense to say "Mega Diancie is objectively better than Mega Venusaur". 7th Gen introduced a lot of new fairy and bug types, which are being run to resounding success in spite of the presence of Aegislash.

What that tells me, at least, is that Aegislash is (a) not centralizing the metagame around itself and (b) not the biggest factor going into team creation at the moment.
 
What that tells me, at least, is that Aegislash is (a) not centralizing the metagame around itself and (b) not the biggest factor going into team creation at the moment.
It's only been about two days since SuMo's launch. In the same way it can be said it's too early to tell if Aegislash will be centralizing, it can be said that it's too early to tell that it won't be centralizing. Cool your jets a bit and wait for the meta to settle down.
 
Maybe we define "best pokemon in the tier" differently. For one, i doesn't mean "most used pokemon in the tier". The tier is chock full of fairy and bug types not because they are objectively better than aegislash, but because 7th gen introduced a lot of new fairy and bug types....
I think Pheromosa, Buzzwole, Golisopod, Magearna, and the Tapus are more than just "shiny new toy syndrome". Besides, when it comes to OU, it makes no sense to even talk about what's "objectively better" than what, especially when the Pokemon are of different types. You might say that Kyogre is "objectively better" than Politoad, but it doesn't even make sense to say "Mega Diancie is objectively better than Mega Venusaur". 7th Gen introduced a lot of new fairy and bug types, which are being run to resounding success in spite of the presence of Aegislash.

What that tells me, at least, is that Aegislash is (a) not centralizing the metagame around itself and (b) not the biggest factor going into team creation at the moment.
I'm not disagreeing with you about Aeglislash, but "shiny new toy syndrome" does not mean that people are only using x because it's new, it means that x has higher usage because it's new. I think that pretty clearly applies to a lot of 7th gen pokemon, and Aegislash is thriving as a result. But all in all, I think we agree with each other...


If I had to summarize, I'd say usage is only very weakly correlated with viability in such an immature metagame
 
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It's only been about two days since SuMo's launch. In the same way it can be said it's too early to tell if Aegislash will be centralizing, it can be said that it's too early to tell that it won't be centralizing. Cool your jets a bit and wait for the meta to settle down.
It isn't centralizing AT THE MOMENT, right now. Yes, it very well might be in 2 weeks or a month, particularly depending on what else gets banned. I agree 100% on the wait-and-see approach, but there are also a lottttttt of people in this thread who are trying to stigmatize it already without knowing the first thing about what the Sun/Moon meta will look like when the dust settles. Everyone is focusing on Pheromosa at the moment, but we could be in for the Zygarde show when all is said and done.

In general, I think the influx of slow/bulky Pokemon is the best anti-Aegislash thing that could have happened. I never had it on my team when it was at its height, and I never had a problem with it either. I just hit it whenever I could with bulky Pokemon that had recovery. Stuff like Buzzwole that can take a hit and Earthquake back is perfect. Alolan Marowak. Toxapex. Mimikyu can play some proper mind-games with it. Alolan Muk has Knock Off, Pain Split, and Shadow Sneak. Gliscor. Tapu Koko and Xurkitree will sweep it right through Shield Forme if it gets worn down enough. Mandibuzz. Etc. It's certainly good but it also has a lot of checks.
 
Comments from Playing Ladder so Far:

What do you guys think of Golisopod at the moment? I know at the moment he's below average because how polarized the metagame is at the moment, but once the metagame starts seeing more Balance teams come in, I think Golisopod could see some decent usage because STAB First Impression is really damn good against Offense, especially coming off of a Base 125 Attack.

100% Form Zygarde is a pretty busted Pokemon in my opinion. Basically, if you can't OHKO 50% Zygarde form right off the bat, you're pretty much done for, especially with the SubCoil sets that run Thousand Arrows and Dragon Tail. The only Pokemon that resists its STAB combination that's relevant to the current metagame is Tapu Bulu, and even then it struggles to find a way to break Zygarde's subs thanks to base 216 HP.

I don't know about you all, but I personally think that Alolan Marowak goes really nicely with Rain Teams. It's a good all-around tank that doesn't lose momentum because of its high damage output. Its typing also allows it to deal with a number of common problem Pokemon for Rain teams, namely the various relevant Grass types such as Kartana and, most importantly, Tapu Koko.

As for general metagame comments, Bug Pokemon are certainly dictating the entire flow of the metagame (mostly because Phero/Genesect). Assuming that the tier will eventually ban Aegislash, Pheromosa, and Genesect, Pokemon with strong initial hype, such as Alolan Marowak, will eventually drop to a lower tier. Greninja will definitely see a rise once these problematic Pokemon go away and Pokemon such as Tapu Fini and whatnot will see an increase in usage.

To the person who was concerned about the Parental Bond "Seismic Toss" argument, Although it automatically takes away 200 HP from a given target, it's not an optimal option to run on Kangaskhan in the first place (in fact, fixed damage moves have never been good on Offensive Pokemon ever). The only time I've ever seen Seismic Toss mentioned as an option for M-Kangaskhan was for a really bad Defensive Khan set (WishTect + Seismic Toss). Besides, Kangaskhan was almost certainly not banned because Seismic Toss chunked out 200 HP from its target. At an effective 1.25x power boost now, I think that Kangaskhan would be manageable in this metagame.
 
While it seems that nobody has managed to make Guzzlord work well so far, I might be on to something... I won tonight's Sun/Moon tournament using a Tapu Lele offense team, and the defensive core I used for glue was Aegislash and...

T H I C C (Guzzlord) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Shame this thing doesn't get Knock Off, would have made the set much better, but it's a very bulky attacker that sacrifices long-term longevity for immediate power and special walling, and can brute-force its way through quite a few attackers. Its fairly susceptible to burn, but Tapu Fini looks to be an incredible teammate (who I didn't use considering the goal of the primary team) as it covers Guzzlord's Ice, Dragon, Fighting, and Bug weaknesses, and while it may halve the damage of Dragon Tail against grounded opponents (whose main goal isn't damage anyway), doesn't affect the rest of its sizable damage, and can cover it from burns.

This set still has a few issues, most notably recovery, but for what it does do, it's worked out fairly well. Serene's Grace can attest to it, this thing ate up a max-investment Life Orb + Sheer Force Ice Beam from Nidoqueen and only took about 34%, retaliating with Earthquake.
 
Mystletainn Mind sharing the replay if you have it? Or other replays using the same set? I'd like to get a look at a good Guzzlord set in action.

Concentrating its defensive stats all into SpDef with use of an Assault Vest seems to make good sense.
 

wishes

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Toxapex is incredible. With such astonishing bulk, excellent typing, and Recover, alongside Regenerator, this thing is looking to be a top tier threat. Like, it lives the strongest Earthquake in the game [CB 252+ Landorus-T's] and it even has some wiggle room in there. Without a Tapu Koko, good luck breaking this monster. For example, Toxapex shrugs off Aegislash, Pheromosa, and Genesect all in just one little slot. Hell, Landorus doesn't have a secure OHKO with Earth Power. The metagame will revolve around this thing. Not to be /that/ girl who goes "ban it all!!!" but mark my words... Toxapex will be suspected.
 
Unfortunately I did not save many replays because I didn't expect to get that far in the tourney, much less win it. But, here is the aforementioned match with Serene's Grace. It straight-up comes in and KOs Nidoqueen, and tanks Serperior enough to severely dent it so that Scarf Xurkitree could later sweep.

Mystletaynn vs Serene's Grace
 
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I really like how you can just Choice Scarf physical giants like Kartana/Phero. and Beast Mode to sweep/clean-up with. Choice Specs Psyshock and M-Metagross under Psychic Terrain also deeply wound most teams, and Choice Band Hoop-U/Genesect really complement offensive teams. I am impressed with some of the new release and its great fun so far!

Also I think Tapu-Koko / Thundurus / M-Manetric, when it is released, will be a strong core in my opinion. But there's still lots new additions to play around and the flow of the game has picked up the pace deerly since XYZ.

Hopes forward lol...
Think Taunt+3 attacks Tapu / Agility Thund / M-Mane / Taunt or CM Tapu Lele /Scarf User (beast Mode UB/Lando whatever) / Offensive Rocker. Cool team idea. M-Zam can replace M-Mane if Aegi gets banned.
 


Toxapex is incredible. With such astonishing bulk, excellent typing, and Recover, alongside Regenerator, this thing is looking to be a top tier threat. Like, it lives the strongest Earthquake in the game [CB 252+ Landorus-T's] and it even has some wiggle room in there. Without a Tapu Koko, good luck breaking this monster. For example, Toxapex shrugs off Aegislash, Pheromosa, and Genesect all in just one little slot. Hell, Landorus doesn't have a secure OHKO with Earth Power. The metagame will revolve around this thing. Not to be /that/ girl who goes "ban it all!!!" but mark my words... Toxapex will be suspected.
So if I'm building a Stall team, would you say that Toxapex + Aegislash would be redundant?
 

Finchinator

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So if I'm building a Stall team, would you say that Toxapex + Aegislash would be redundant?
Not quite. I think it's fair to say that they do have some redundancies (i.e: both cover Pheromosa, both check Genesect, and both act as answers to the fighting type to varying extents). However, they also can function as compliments; for example, on the team I posted here the core of Toxic Spikes Toxapex and SubTox (Sub if TSpikes poisons everything, but Toxic on Aegi is a nice extra layer of poison protection for those who aren't grounded) Aegislash is incredibly effective. In addition, there is not a total overlap when it comes to their defensive capabilities. Toxapex can handle Fire types, but Aegislash cannot. Aegislash can handle Psychic types, but Toxapex cannot. Moreover, these two can very plausibly be paired on Stallish teams in the current metagame and seeing as both are very common Pokemon for Stall builds, I see them ending up on the same team sometimes fairly inevitable, which isn't a bad thing at all, simply the case given how things are working out currently.
 

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What I dislike is Lando-I, Ninja and Genesect. That stuff is broken. Aegi holds the whole "meta" together, but when that thing is gone, steels will be broken as well.

What I like is that Clef is not that relevant anymore, M-Mawile is gold and I don't need water/dark resists, bisharp could be Nice actually
 
Mew @ Normalium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 224 HP / 252 SpA / 32 Spe
Modest Nature
- Conversion
- Roost
- Thunder Bolt
- Ice Beam

We can entertain a few fringe sets, right? Basically this is a parasite Mew, he switches infront of Tapu Koko, uses Conversion, roosts and then begins to zap stuff. 32 outspeeds Admant Bisharp and Tyranitar, feel free to burrow from HP evs for more speed benchmarks.
Does Mew even get conversion?
 
Does Mew even get conversion?
Apparently not my bad, got confused with Transform, which apparently heals 25%.

Edit:

Chandelure @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Substitute
- Memento

Dugtrio @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic/Reversal
- Memento
 
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While it seems that nobody has managed to make Guzzlord work well so far, I might be on to something... I won tonight's Sun/Moon tournament using a Tapu Lele offense team, and the defensive core I used for glue was Aegislash and...

T H I C C (Guzzlord) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Shame this thing doesn't get Knock Off, would have made the set much better, but it's a very bulky attacker that sacrifices long-term longevity for immediate power and special walling, and can brute-force its way through quite a few attackers. Its fairly susceptible to burn, but Tapu Fini looks to be an incredible teammate (who I didn't use considering the goal of the primary team) as it covers Guzzlord's Ice, Dragon, Fighting, and Bug weaknesses, and while it may halve the damage of Dragon Tail against grounded opponents (whose main goal isn't damage anyway), doesn't affect the rest of its sizable damage, and can cover it from burns.

This set still has a few issues, most notably recovery, but for what it does do, it's worked out fairly well. Serene's Grace can attest to it, this thing ate up a max-investment Life Orb + Sheer Force Ice Beam from Nidoqueen and only took about 34%, retaliating with Earthquake.
I like this set on teams that rely on sr and spikes to rack up damage. The main reason to use this set is dragon tail imo so poison jab is probably better then stone edge so you can deal decent damage to fairy types that want to switch in. Fire blast over earthquake is also an option to hit scizor and ferrothorn.
 
Right, it gets Poison Jab, that'd probably be useful for Fairy and Grass. I'd still rather have Earthquake though, it has very good resists against Fire and Electric, and would love to hit them back, as well as the plethora of other targets it has. You probably shouldn't be fighting Scizor in the first place, as you lack physical bulk and speed.
 
What I dislike is Lando-I, Ninja and Genesect. That stuff is broken. Aegi holds the whole "meta" together, but when that thing is gone, steels will be broken as well.

What I like is that Clef is not that relevant anymore, M-Mawile is gold and I don't need water/dark resists, bisharp could be Nice actually
Why do you think Steels will be broken even if Aegi gets banned? If anything, Fairy is broken and Steel is one of a very small amount of checks to it. Fighting still exists. Fire still exists. Ground still exists. There are certainly ways to deal with Steel-type pokemon. If anything, Stealth Rock is what's holding back the meta by preventing more defensive Fire-types from existing as a double check to Fairies and Steels.
 
I think SR are holding BACK the meta, not holding it together. But what I'm asking is why you think Aegi going would mean Steels would get stronger?
 
I honestly don't feel that genesect is very OP. There are quite a few mons that can sit on it, toxipex, mantine, defensive gyarados, etc. aegislash, however, is just a little TOO good. It checks FAR to many mons, and is only gotten around by a select few mons. And even then, you have to be extremely careful to play around King's shield. Don't have enough experience with Greninja or Pheromosa yet to make a call there.
 

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I think in terms of teams being that are being used so early on in the metagame, you will be at an advantage if you follow the skeleton of popular teams that were being used in early XY:

Force of Nature:

Latios @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Recover
- Defog

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Dazzling Gleam

Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 2 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Scald
- Hidden Power [Flying]

Hippowdon (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 240 HP / 192 Def / 76 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Slack Off

Aegislash (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- King's Shield
- Flash Cannon
- Shadow Ball
- Iron Head

Charizard-Mega-Y (M) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Focus Blast
- Roost

I used this in a few games today, the defensive backbone of this team can still hold its own against the newly introduced SuMo mons, with Hippowdon and Aegislash taking on the Tapus quite well, and Zard capable of breaking the fat shit like Celesteelea, makes the team capable of performing well on ladder or in test games. I replaced Thundurus with Tapu Koko because I felt the team was much too slow, and Thundurus couldn't provide the immediate power that Koko can, so I tried that over Thundurus. Aegislash+Hippowdon's importance must be stressed when it comes to this team, Aegislash generally takes on the Tapus and stuff like Pheremosa pretty decently and overlapped with Hippowdon, there's not a lot the combo in tandem lose to. In regards to other options in terms of members, Greninja over Keldeo is probably a good idea because Keldeo in general isn't too hot right now, and Greninja offers some nice coverage and flexible options to the team. Running Pursuit Aegislash isn't a good idea atm as well.

Absolutely Haram:

Terrakion @ Focus Sash
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat

Landorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Knock Off
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
IVs: 29 HP / 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 30 SpA
- Hydro Pump
- Gunk Shot
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Dark Pulse

Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Flash Cannon
- Sacred Sword

Mawile-Mega @ Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Play Rough
- Fire Fang
- Sucker Punch

Haven't tried out this team in particular yet, but I feel it's definitely worth looking at. I'd say retention of Greninja, M-Mawile, Aegislash, and Landorus, is crucial because the offensive synergy they've got going on here is insane. Boudouche used LO Aegislash on this team, and I felt it was definitely worth trying out in the current meta. I, once again, replaced Thundurus with Tapu Koko because of reasons mentioned earlier, but have retained Terrakion as the lead. I don't really think it's the best thing as a lead rn and maybe Garchomp could do a better job, definitely worth experimenting imo.

Crystalized:

Genesect @ Choice Band
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Iron Head
- Extreme Speed
- Blaze Kick

Landorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast
- Stealth Rock

Heatran (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Toxic
- Earth Power
- Taunt

Keldeo-Resolute @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Icy Wind

Venusaur (F) @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 192 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Synthesis

Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Trick

I used this extensively on ladder today, with a couple of changes that I felt suited the team better. Firstly, I got rid of Mandibuzz because with the introduction of the Tapus, it was literally a sitting duck. After some consideration, I decided to replace it with Scarf Hoopa- it provided the team with speed control since it was rather slow, and I hated ScarfTran so I changed it to Magma Storm+Taunt. I read through the original rmt and saw that CB Genesect was in place of Azumarill, so I decided to give it whirl and it's not disappointed me so far. I think M-Venusaur in general is one of the better megas atm, and its defensive utility proves really vital to the team's performance and consistency. I'm 9-1 with this on the ladder so yeah, definitely worth trying out.

Top-Tiel Threats:


I think these pokemon are absolutely fantastic at the moment, you will definitely see one or more of them on each team so be sure to come prepared well for them and not hit X when you're up against them. You may even see a few of them suspected so stay in the loop.

PCE.
 
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