Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

[BeardyBennett]

Am I missing something here? Did the Electric Surge/Surge Surfer combo get banned? How is Alolan Raichu unviable in a meta where Tapu Koko is number 1 in usage? That'd be like Kingdra being unviable in a metagame where Politoed is everywhere (and the Swift Swim combo is legal). Tapu Koko is already stupidly good, and Alolan Raichu effectively forms a double type core to spam down their checks, and he has coverage that does pretty damn well against a lot of those options, with Grass Knot, Psychic for Poison types, Surf for Rain, and Focus Blast for Ttar and such. Alolan Raichu might be in a better place than Kingdra in that regard, since he's fast enough to function without the Terrain, he and Koko can both be Volt-Turners, and Rain's always an option to shit on Alolan Marowak. Is it because the Tapus are all fighting for Terrain or something?

I would like to point out in regards to Alolan-Raichu that it's actually a nice lure for a multitude of Ground type Pokemon due to it getting access to Surf (so many OHKOs on Lando-T's switching in, I don't even know where to begin). I think despite its underwhelming physical Defense and mediocre Special Attack, it has a solid place in OU due to its arguably better typing, nice STAB combination, great movepool (not just coverage wise, but also due to access to tools like Nasty Plot), and high speed with its niche ability Surge Surfer being very abusable due to the ridiculously high presence of Tapu Koko.

I absolutely agree with all of this. For some reason people seem to think that just because Tapu Koko is the most used Electric type, that it's automatically the best one. This is not true, and in fact I think A-Raichu wins a 1-v-1 between the two due to outspeeding in E-Terrain and Psychic/Psyshock hitting harder (to say nothing of pairing the two as pika pal mentioned). Tapu Koko doesn't invalidate A-Raichu, just like I don't think it'll invalidate M-Mane whenever it is made available. Mega-Venusaur didn't invalidate Amoonguss last gen either as both sat in OU. I don't see A-Raichu dropping.

 

[Siggu]

There's also the matter that Tapu Koko+Alolan Raichu is definetly not a Politoed (or Pelipper now)+Kingdra situation.

Alolan Raichu has much higher hopes of staying high because right now Tapu Koko is amazing on its own, whereas the Rain setters have always been kind of mediocre outside of Drizzle.

When you pick a Swift Swimmer, you end up thinking "now I have to use a whole slot just for Drizzle". For Alolan Raichu, it's "Tapu Koko? Sure, why not?"

 

[Kutscher]

actually i was really surprised that kingdra made his way to OU and A-raichu didn't, i've been using a rain team, and a-raichu is definetly the MVP in almost every match, kingdra is more of a "o I will use kingdra to kill this mon, so raichu won't loose life from LO", i risk to say that a-rachi is more viable than kingdra, not sure if a-raichu + tapu koko works outside of rain, but rain + eletric terrain is really viable right now.

 

[BeardyBennett]

actually i was really surprised that kingdra made his way to OU and A-raichu didn't, i've been using a rain team, and a-raichu is definetly the MVP in almost every match, kingdra is more of a "o I will use kingdra to kill this mon, so raichu won't loose life from LO", i risk to say that a-rachi is more viable than kingdra, not sure if a-raichu + tapu koko works outside of rain, but rain + eletric terrain is really viable right now.

Well I think the big thing with Kingdra on Rain is how useful it is defensively. Being decently bulky naturally and resisting Grass and taking neutral from Electric for the Water mons, while also quad-resisting Fire for the quad-weak mons like Scizor and Ferrothorn that you tend to see on Rain teams. When you think about it, Kingdra makes more sense than A-Raichu for a strict Rain team because of what it does defensively, while also being a sweeper option like A-Raichu both in and out of rain. Some people also might not see the value in having both Tapu Koko and A-Raichu on Rain, instead opting for just Koko to abuse 100% accurate Thunders. They might see it as too much overlap of roles and typing. Altogether, though, I do think A-Raichu is a better mon at face value than Kingdra and think it is more deserving to be in OU.

 

[WebBowser]

actually i was really surprised that kingdra made his way to OU and A-raichu didn't, i've been using a rain team, and a-raichu is definetly the MVP in almost every match, kingdra is more of a "o I will use kingdra to kill this mon, so raichu won't loose life from LO", i risk to say that a-rachi is more viable than kingdra, not sure if a-raichu + tapu koko works outside of rain, but rain + eletric terrain is really viable right now.

I think part of that has to do with "tested and true syndrome", in that people are more likely to go after the old stuff that has always been good instead of the new thing that doesn't immediately look good. It's a big part of the reason why aegislash was so widely used in the beginning of the meta (on top of just being an insanely good mon and checking several very prominent threats.).

 

[Ropeburn]

In my personal opinion, the reason that Kingdra rises above Raichu-A in practice is because:

- It has far better bulk: (Kingdra with 75/95/95 defenses and Raichu with 60/50/85) and a fantastic typing both offensively and defensively. Water/Dragon is one of the best STAB's in the game as it hits almost everything relevant. Not to mention the Pursuit weakness that Raichu suffers in its new form.

- Water STAB under rain is just way stronger. Hydro Pump in Rain is just so much better than Thunderbolt in Electric Terrain.

- Kingdra doesn't really compete with its fellow setters, while Raichu competes with Tapu Koko. They both fill a similar role, and frankly there are better electric types who have better bulk and power.

- Rain not only buffs water moves under it- it also nerfs fire moves, letting stuff like Fero and Scizor take x4 fire hits under the rain. Electric Terrain lacks interactions like this, outside of the sleep mechanic.

I'm not saying Raichu-A is unusable, however I feel that it's niche is so small and inconsistent that it's not going to be relevant in OU in comparison to the rain archetype which has been proven to be far more reliable and consistent.

 

[Morkal]

In my personal opinion, the reason that Kingdra rises above Raichu-A in practice is because:

- It has far better bulk: (Kingdra with 75/95/95 defenses and Raichu with 60/50/85) and a fantastic typing both offensively and defensively. Water/Dragon is one of the best STAB's in the game as it hits almost everything relevant. Not to mention the Pursuit weakness that Raichu suffers in its new form.

- Water STAB under rain is just way stronger. Hydro Pump in Rain is just so much better than Thunderbolt in Electric Terrain.

- Kingdra doesn't really compete with its fellow setters, while Raichu competes with Tapu Koko. They both fill a similar role, and frankly there are better electric types who have better bulk and power.

- Rain not only buffs water moves under it- it also nerfs fire moves, letting stuff like Fero and Scizor take x4 fire hits under the rain. Electric Terrain lacks interactions like this, outside of the sleep mechanic.

I'm not saying Raichu-A is unusable, however I feel that it's niche is so small and inconsistent that it's not going to be relevant in OU in comparison to the rain archetype which has been proven to be far more reliable and consistent.

What you're not getting about the comparisons between the two is that Raichu doesn't compete with Tapu Koko, the two go in tandem. Just as Kingdra without rain is meh in OU, Raichu A without E terrain is meh in OU, although arguably Raichu A is better without due to its superior coverage, faster speed naturally, and access to Nasty Plot alongside said speed. Also, Rain is way less common this gen compared to the terrains, so arguably that relevance alone makes Raichu-A better than Kingdra, despite the advantages you mentioned about Rain buffs (which some arguably aren't that advantageous)

 

[pika pal]

The thing about Alolan Raichu is that it's only good while paired with Tapu Koko, much like Kingdra is only particularly good when paired with a rain setter; however, Tapu Koko is so good in the meta right now that it's not really a constraint on building. If I want to use Kingdra, I basically now have to work under the constraints of using Rain, which is a given for any playstyle, but Raichu's only requirement is "use one of the best mons in the game", so many teams have no trouble fitting him and a lot would probably already include Tapu Koko. It's not competing for the team slot the same way you're not weighing Kingdra vs Pelipper; the point is the two being a core that work better together.

Besides that, the weather comparison is lost a bit since in prior generations, Politoed's only real support was the rain itself and very generic stuff like Toxic, with the Rain sweepers springboarding from there and not looking back. Pelipper is such a breath of air for the Rain archetype because it's a Rain setter that offers a decent amount of support besides the actual rain, particularly Pivoting to bring in the Rain sweepers without loss of momentum. Tapu Koko is not used as a Terrain setter, rather he is a very good mon who includes Electric Terrain in what he can bring to a team.

I don't see how sharing the role is an automatic strike against Raichu with Koko. Double type cores to chew on checks has been a concept since Generation 4, and it's not even like the core is totally redundant on synergy, as Raichu can lure Bulky Ground types with Surf and Grass Knot (frees up the Hidden Power slot on Koko) while having a means to break the occasional Poison type like Mega Venusaur and Amoongus, two mons that Koko has to go mixed to deal with and (as bulky Grass types) would give the rain archetype trouble. And to note, Alolan Marowak (tank set at least) has to be kept healthy to check Surf sets without falling to kill range when looking at the core used outside of Rain, something noteworthy given Alolan-Marowak is such a strong mon for checking Electrics as well as in general.

252 SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Psychic vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 265-312 (73.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Psychic vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 237-281 (65.2 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Psychic vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 330-393 (76.5 - 91.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Surf vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Marowak-Alola: 218-257 (67.2 - 79.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Besides this, it should be noted that Raichu isn't totally neutered if the Terrain is overwritten, compared to Rain sweepers losing a LOT of their momentum if the weather wears out or is switched, thanks to Raichu having a fairly competent speed tier and outspeeding the other Tapus. Worst case scenario, he can Volt Switch out to maintain momentum, but he actually leaves a decent dent in Fini and Bulu, while having enough presence that Lele can't swap in unaided at least.

252 SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Psychic vs. 164 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 161-191 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 244-291 (70.9 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Raichu-Alola: 253-300 (96.9 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 138-164 (49.1 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The relationship between Tapu Koko and Raichu seems less like the Rain archetype, and more like the point in XY where "Sand Teams" were "Tyranitar and an Excadrill to sweep". Fast, Terrain powered Electric types are a task to wall, especially given some of the mons picking up for defensive prowess are things that don't fare well against Electric types, like Celesteela and Toxapex

252 SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 221-265 (55.5 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 174-205 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


And the last thing I want to note, this is with Raichu running a Timid nature, though he can afford to go Modest if Koko support is closely monitored. I think a mon that pairs well with one of the best offensive mons in the game in a manner that yields Synergy is going to perform a bit better than being just niche.

 

[elitesalamander]

I would like to point out in regards to Alolan-Raichu that it's actually a nice lure for a multitude of Ground type Pokemon due to it getting access to Surf (so many OHKOs on Lando-T's switching in, I don't even know where to begin). I think despite its underwhelming physical Defense and mediocre Special Attack, it has a solid place in OU due to its arguably better typing, nice STAB combination, great movepool (not just coverage wise, but also due to access to tools like Nasty Plot), and high speed with its niche ability Surge Surfer being very abusable due to the ridiculously high presence of Tapu Koko.

I have also seen it used as a glue on teams that use both Koko and Lele it benifits highly from psychic terrian appreciating the boost to its other Stab as well as priority immunity.

 

[heavylobster43]

Weather is viable again this gen mostly because of the fact that weather summoners are now generally capable of significant team support outside of just their weather condition. Pelipper has good defensive typing to go with its decent bulk on that side and reliable recovery, as well as U-Turn, which can bring in sweepers while keeping momentum, and works on both defensive and offensive sets. TTar/Hippo have long been capable of functioning in OU due to their stats/movepools. Alola-Ninetales gets Aurora Veil. Sun is probably the iffiest in terms of summoners, but Zard-Y at the least will always be around, and Torkoal at least offers a few utility moves. Right now there's a lot of chaos with all the weathers/terrains going around. Weather might take a hit once the meta slows down from the bans likely to come down over the next few months, but it's going to stay more relevant than in gen 6, as Rain and Hail have way more tools than before to work with, and Sand already has enough tools to have a niche. Sun may or may not last as a dedicated archetype, but random Zard-Ys will always have a place to mess with the other weathers.

 

[pika pal]

I don't think Hail is going to pick up with Alolan Ninetales. Alolan Ninetales is a very good support mon for Aurora Veil, but Hail still has too many problems with functioning as a playstyle: it stacks very common weaknesses, the Slush Rushers are few and far between, they don't get much power out of the weather (just accuracy, no power boost), and even Alola Sandslash isn't particularly fast for what a weather sweeper does.

 

[Scoopapa]

I would say the big thing A-Raichu brings to the table in supporting Tapu Koko is Nasty Plot. With this it can bust Electric resists with +2 Psychic and Focus Blast. For instance, it can sweep Scarf Landorus, Ferrothorn, A-Marowak, M-Venusaur, and Tyranitar. It can even bust Chansey in an ideal scenario.

 

[Morkal]

I have also seen it used as a glue on teams that use both Koko and Lele it benifits highly from psychic terrian appreciating the boost to its other Stab as well as priority immunity.

The Shadow Sneak immunity from riding off of someone else's Psychic Terrain has actually won me a few matches from sheer luck. I absolutely love Raichu-A, and the fact that it's being so poorly underestimated is a little disheartening. It truly is a frightening Pokemon. (Albeit it wouldn't be if it didn't get access to Surf, that just pushed it over the tipping point since it can outspeed and nuke most Rock / Ground / Fire types now without an absolutely terrible move like Focus Miss). I've yet to see any movesets utilizing its Z-Move potential though.

 

[JSND]

I don't think Hail is going to pick up with Alolan Ninetales. Alolan Ninetales is a very good support mon for Aurora Veil, but Hail still has too many problems with functioning as a playstyle: it stacks very common weaknesses, the Slush Rushers are few and far between, they don't get much power out of the weather (just accuracy, no power boost), and even Alola Sandslash isn't particularly fast for what a weather sweeper does.

Hail Blizzard boost actually gives power

The logic here is you shouldn't compare Blizzard outside Hail to Blizzard inside Hail. You compare Blizzard in Hail with Standard Ice Beam in which its a solid 22% damage increase(mind you 30% is where these kind of boost started to get out of hand and able to enter broken territory). This is actually a very huge difference

Also Slush Rusher being few isn't an issue. Sand Team literally exists with only 1 real abuser of the weather(the moment Excadrill is removed, Sand Offense doesn't really exist in Gen 5 because the two other kinda sucked, and the same would probably happen to Sun had they just removed Venusaur instead of making clauses). Problem is really Hail mon sucks. Before Alolan Ninetales the only Weather Summoner in Hail is Abomasnow, whose stats is so terrible, it makes legitimate garbage like Glalie looks good.

After Alolan Ninetales, our Slush Rusher option is a low speed, low Attack Sandslash(kinda funny since Sandslash movepool is so hilariously good that slapping it on Excadrill stats would created a god), or Beartic with 50 speed


Honestly with all said and done, Sand is actually the worst weather in the game. Residual Damage that literally did not damage 2 best defensive typing in the game, and defense boost is WAY worse than Power Boost. Thats why Gamefreak gave it to Tyranitar(600 BST Pseudo) and Hippowdon(It had bulk comparable to Groudon, and had Slack Off/SR)

 

[nameless90]

A problem I see with Hail is the following one: you really want that your A-Ninetales uses Aurora Veil for 8 turns. Double screen setting is just too good to pass up.
This is a shame because you can't really use Slush Rusher with only 1+4 turns of hail. You become too predictable and you'll often have to forget to use Swords Dance with your A-Sandslash.

This means that when you play A-Ninetales you have to choose between:
(1) 8 turns of Aurora Veil, with 1+4 turns of hail to break some Focus Sashes and/or reveal some Leftovers;
(2) 8 turns of hail in order to use A-Sandlash, which is way better than Beartic thanks to its higher Spe (65 vs 50 is a huge different; keep in mind that Swift Swimmers have 70 base Spe or more, though!). Is really A-Sandslash really worth the loss of 8 turns Aurora Veil? I think no in a world where Aurora Veil exists; the opportunity cost is too big.

Too bad that there isn't another viable Hail summoner, because Blizzard spam could be a real thing for monsters like Starmie and Kyurem-B.

 

[Callmeyeshua]

Its actually pretty egregious something like Lando I gets quick banned when shit like Genesect is allowed to run around. People are talking about the lack of counter play to Lando then why exactly is genesect still here? Between scarf, life orb, and boosting sets he becomes almost impossible to play around. Even things that you would think have a decent MU against it like Magnezone just get worn down because download boosted U turns hurt. Its almost an idiot proof momentum grabber. I guess stall would do decent? but once again he can just U turn around and gain free momentum. Pair him with something like Fini that can always keep hazards away and he becomes such a chore to take care of. I really hope that the OU council has some elaborate plan in place as to why some stuff is staying and some stuff isn't because both Phero and Gene are a lot more restricting than anything Lando could muster. Nevermind its respecable bluk with one weakness...get it out of here.

 

[spuds4ever]

I'm guessing this has been brought up before but is anyone finding significant team-building constraints from tapu-lele and tapu-bulu? I'm finding that I have to pack a 4x grass resist and a 4x psychic resist on every team, the closest thing I can find to cut corners in one mon is mixed def ferrothorn and even that is taking up to 45% from specs psychic and is even iffier against bulu which pretty much always carries superpower and forces you to have steel STAB. Not even specially defensive Mega Scizor can take two psychics with rocks up even if you manage to safely mega evolve it before hand and can't even b-punch. I know this is a gen for offense and all that jazz and I'm not really trying to defend stall as much as I'm trying to defend everything that isn't HO because they both have really decent bulk for offensive mons and can one v one so much of the meta to guarantee a kill nearly every game. Idk, to me it seems like they're lacking that easy offensive staple response like tapu-koko does in scarf lando (though tbf, this is probably the only example that applies to koko). Idk how they stand in comparison to stuff that seems to have a more urgent outcry for banning like the bugs (tbh, I genuinely haven't built a team without wak this gen and don't bump into gene and phero all that much) but I do think that these two tapus do need addressing or at least some justification as to how they're not an unhealthy influence on the meta. Not saying that these two are more broken than anything else in the tier atm, just throwing out some experiences I've had.

 

[CozyPoop]

I see more reason to use Hail to set up Aurora Veil instead of using Slush Rushers. But A-Ninetails can not always set up Aurora veil so easily. It at least threatens all the other weather setters who think they can switch in on it, except Torkoal. Lead Charizard can stop it from setting up aurora veil as well by mega evolving that turn, and A-Ninetails doesn't really scare CharY away. Or of course, something like Scizor threatens Ninetails-A with that x4 weakness to steel.

 

[JSND]

I'm guessing this has been brought up before but is anyone finding significant team-building constraints from tapu-lele and tapu-bulu? I'm finding that I have to pack a 4x grass resist and a 4x psychic resist on every team, the closest thing I can find to cut corners in one mon is mixed def ferrothorn and even that is taking up to 45% from specs psychic and is even iffier against bulu which pretty much always carries superpower and forces you to have steel STAB. Not even specially defensive Mega Scizor can take two psychics with rocks up even if you manage to safely mega evolve it before hand and can't even b-punch. I know this is a gen for offense and all that jazz and I'm not really trying to defend stall as much as I'm trying to defend everything that isn't HO because they both have really decent bulk for offensive mons and can one v one so much of the meta to guarantee a kill nearly every game. Idk, to me it seems like they're lacking that easy offensive staple response like tapu-koko does in scarf lando (though tbf, this is probably the only example that applies to koko). Idk how they stand in comparison to stuff that seems to have a more urgent outcry for banning like the bugs (tbh, I genuinely haven't built a team without wak this gen and don't bump into gene and phero all that much) but I do think that these two tapus do need addressing or at least some justification as to how they're not an unhealthy influence on the meta. Not saying that these two are more broken than anything else in the tier atm, just throwing out some experiences I've had.

Not much more than the ussual "this is a threat in the game, have an answer for it" tbh. Packing Celesteela and/or Megagross and sacking 1-2 mon when you know you won't need it to bring megagross to counter pressure. If everything else failed, Magearna is the best pokemon of Sun and Moon OU for a reason

Its just that when the game have Pheromosa, Genesect, Landorus(i haven't played post lando ban game), Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu, Magearna, mega Metagross etc at the same time its kinda ridiculous to really focus your team building attention to one specific thing. I do think Tapu lele is kinda troublesome though

Hoopa Unbound doesn't count because fuck theres zero answer to that, only thing you can really do against it is hope it doesn't fuck with you before you can hunt it down

 

[Seth_]

I am confident that after month or two only several people are using waterium-z manaphy. We are talking about wall breaker that have problem with coverage even with 3 attacks. We are talking about mon with so little sp attack that even with rain it deals less damage than base 130+LO. And rain doesn't boost coverage. We are talking about mon that after 1 turn of set up still deals much less damage than Alakazam, Latios, Magearna.

It may work against some teams but there are just better option. There is Magearna (shift gear set)

Offensive teams have very little against his mon. Normally you would sack something in oreder to bring something healthy enough to eat hit and retaliate harder. Against Magearna you don't have that luxury. It even get tool for breaking tougher walls - Fleur Cannon. It have nice defesnsive typing resisting extreme speed and sucker punch - two strongest priority moves. It's neutral to other form of priority while still having nice bulk.

It doesn't even have to run z crystal and that's huge, because you have more than one chance to set up.

I wonder how much shift gear magearna will be used in next year and how much waterium-z manaphy.

 

[Shurtugal]

TBH I hope you're right because I love using Waterium Manaphy and I don't want the big mean OU Council to take it from me! :<

I knew Landorus was going to get banned but I was excepting a Suspect Test so I could abuse it for just a little while longer, but they snatched my new and shiny toy right before my eyes like holy shit it's lit

 

[JSND]

Not like i disagree but

Alakazam didn't really deal "much more" damage compared to post set up Manaphy

Manaphy Set Up(Rain) Surf - 299 x 202 = 60398

Alakazam LO Psychic - 369 x 135 x 1.3 = 64759

The difference isn't even 10%. Not arguing Latios and Magearna though since those are legitimately stronk mon.

I do agree this looks weak for post set up + Item standard though

 

[Seth_]

Rain doesn't boost coverage moves. That is huge diffrence in power.

 

[Aoda]

To be honest I prefer Tailglow Manaphy, as it gives it more umph to it's coverage moves and adds more offensive pressure.

 

[Pottd]

To be honest I prefer Tailglow Manaphy, as it gives it more umph to it's coverage moves and adds more offensive pressure.

Z-Rain dance manaphy usually also runs tail glow too, it does misses out on one coverage move and lefties though