Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

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PK Gaming

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Mad respect to the OU council for quickbanning Aegislash. We're still a few bans from a "real" metagame, but this is the first major step.

And before people bust out the "LOL PHEROMOSA IS EVEN MORE BROKEN!" posts please consider that it's going to be legal for what, a week or two at most? The point of this stage is to test out Pheromosa at max power. This is a once in a lifetime event.
 

New World Order

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Can't complain about Aegis being gone, but due to it's immense role compression, pretty much every team out there is now obsolete and we're going to have to find new ways to combat speedy versatile attackers like Pheromosa and Latios, as well as powerful offensive nukes like Tapu Lele and Magaerna. Obviously we have our Mantines, Ferrothorns, Celesteelas and such already to stave off what I feel will become a much more offensive metagame now that set-up sweepers no longer have to deal with the headache of beating out Aegislash in a 50/50, but I'd like to speculate on a few sturdy defensive mons who are now unlocked with the absence of Aegislash.

Lati@s is still a thing in the meta, but everyone and their mothers can tell how much their effectiveness declined due to it's inability to carry a coverage move that can touch Aegislash reliably. Now they can make use of their incredibly diverse offensive and support movepools. The Tapus are still going to make life difficult for them, but I feel they have the potential to become premier pivots.

Clefable, like the Latii twins, is still being ran, but was greatly neutered with Aegislash on every team. Genesect is still a problem, but now it can actually reliably serve as a glue mon without the opponent being able to switch to that Ghost-Steel every time Clefable came in and hindering it from doing its job.

Slowbro is a big winner as it offers a sturdy water, steel, and fighting resist off Regenerator. New threats like Bulu, Koko, Genesect etc are potentially very hostile to Slowbro's presence in OU, but the various fighting and steel types that are enabled by the loss of Aegislash, especially when the likes of Mega Lopunny are eventually available will likely cement this thing a place in the meta.

Jirachi is a bulky versatile steel that was suppressed by Aegislash but will likely take on many of the roles Aegislash used to fulfill. Losing the fighting immunity is huge, but it will likely do very well with all the fairies out there, many who will spike in usage with the sword and shield gone. It also offers a variety of team support options like Stealth Rock and Healing Wish.

Mew is yet another bulky Psychic type that cries tears of joy without the sword and shield bullying it with the Sub-Toxic set. It can serve as both an answer to the incoming rise in Fighting-types, Psychic-types and the like while simultaneously being a potent stallbreaker.

Dhelmise/Decidueye offer numerous resistances thanks to their rare but desirable typing and hazard removal options. Jury is still out on which is better (though I'm leaning towards Decidueye due to access to Roost based on what I've seen so far) but I feel that one of them will find a solid niche in the tier against the powerful water, fighting, and electric types that inhabit the tier.

EDIT: On a side note, while most of these mons can check a good chunk of the powerful attackers that inhabit Pokebank OU, each and every one of them get walked over by Pheromosa with ease. So yeah, chances are we'll be getting quickban #3 in the near future.
 
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Can't complain about Aegis being gone, but due to it's immense role compression, pretty much every team out there is now obsolete and we're going to have to find new ways to combat speedy versatile attackers like Pheromosa and Latios, as well as powerful offensive nukes like Tapu Lele and Magaerna. Obviously we have our Mantines, Ferrothorns, Celesteelas and such already to stave off what I feel will become a much more offensive metagame now that set-up sweepers no longer have to deal with the headache of beating out Aegislash in a 50/50, but I'd like to speculate on a few sturdy defensive mons who are now unlocked with the absence of Aegislash.

Lati@s is still a thing in the meta, but everyone and their mothers can tell how much their effectiveness declined due to it's inability to carry a coverage move that can touch Aegislash reliably. Now they can make use of their incredibly diverse offensive and support movepools. The Tapus are still going to make life difficult for them, but I feel they have the potential to become premier pivots.

Clefable, like the Latii twins, is still being ran, but was greatly neutered with Aegislash on every team. Genesect is still a problem, but now it can actually reliably serve as a glue mon without the opponent being able to switch to that Ghost-Steel every time Clefable came in and hindering it from doing its job.

Slowbro is a big winner as it offers a sturdy water, steel, and fighting resist off Regenerator. New threats like Bulu, Koko, Genesect etc are potentially very hostile to Slowbro's presence in OU, but the various fighting and steel types that are enabled by the loss of Aegislash, especially when the likes of Mega Lopunny are eventually available will likely cement this thing a place in the meta.

Jirachi is a bulky versatile steel that was suppressed by Aegislash but will likely take on many of the roles Aegislash used to fulfill. Losing the fighting immunity is huge, but it will likely do very well with all the fairies out there, many who will spike in usage with the sword and shield gone. It also offers a variety of team support options like Stealth Rock and Healing Wish.

Mew is yet another bulky Psychic type that cries tears of joy without the sword and shield bullying it with the Sub-Toxic set. It can serve as both an answer to the incoming rise in Fighting-types, Psychic-types and the like while simultaneously being a potent stallbreaker.

Dhelmise/Decidueye offer numerous resistances thanks to their rare but desirable typing and hazard removal options. Jury is still out on which is better (though I'm leaning towards Decidueye due to access to Roost based on what I've seen so far) but I feel that one of them will find a solid niche in the tier against the powerful water, fighting, and electric types that inhabit the tier.
Just like last time, I feel that Psychic types in general will like Aegi being banned. I'm most interested in seeing what effect this would have on Toxapex usage.
 

Mr.E

unban me from Discord
is a Two-Time Past SPL Champion
typical smogon scrubbiness tbh, free aegislash

Pheromosa is basically Deoxys though, so like that's probably more legit. Yes, it has lower raw power statistically but it has faaaaaaaaaar superior STAB options (U-Turn is huge and HJK rakes without neutering your ability to nuke a second mon like Psycho Boost).
 

Pheromosa @ Expert Belt
Ability: Beast Boost
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA
- Bug Buzz
- Focus Blast
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]

With Aegis gone, Pheromosa gets an extra layer of complexity. Full Special HP Electric Phero lures in and beats all of the Physical set's counters sans Toxapex (Some you just FBlast anyways):

252 SpA Expert Belt Pheromosa Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pelipper: 298-350 (92.2 - 108.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Expert Belt Pheromosa Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 187-226 (50 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Expert Belt Pheromosa Hidden Power Electric vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 122-144 (50.6 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Celesteela and Skarm you just Focus Blast.

Enjoy.
 

Ema Skye

Work!
Pheromosa is busted. I don't give it long before it's banned.

Special/Mixed sets are the best right now without question. Pick the Hidden Power type, pick the checks you want to beat: Electric for Mantine/Pelipper/Toxapex, Ground for Toxapex/Marowak. Then pick a teammate that beats the other.

On the plus side though, things will even out a bit more when it goes.

Honestly going to skip the ladder for a few days until the ban happens because its not really fun seeing Phero everywhere and knowing you can't beat it.

Beyond Pheromosa though, Tapu Lele loves the ban as it loses its best switchin. MZam + Lele is a legitimately terrifying core and it only gets better now.
 
What the hell do you even use to fight Pheromosa now? Ice Beam / HJK / U-turn / Poison Jab kills everything sans what, Toxapex? Phero was already very good, now that Aegis is gone it's just completely stupid.
Mega Sableye, Toxapex, Alolan Marowak, Bullet Punch on Scizor and Mega Meta, Amoongus, Mola, and possibly Doublade. But honestly, Pheromosa should be banned next. It puts too heavy of a strain on teambuilding and forces people to run specific pokemon with priority to revenge kill (even though it can easily switch out) and or run pokemon that wall it like Toxapex (unless it's a sub+QD set, in which case run for your life and even then it can still just switch out of a bad matchup as appropriate). I've seen it use a special attacking set, which is a lure set to the physical biased mixed set's common FEW answers. Mega Venusaur is honestly the best check to it on offense as far as I've tested. Doesn't change the fact that Pheromosa is busted. It puts too much of a strain on the newly developing metagame. It's so hard to use Hoopa, Lando, and many other pokemon just because it exists. The things that dropped back to the tier from last gen are supposed to be played around with to see if they can work again or you know, stay. Aegislash clearly wasn't going to stay. Pheromosa should leave too because it pretty much stops us from really getting an honest feel of the new meta. I'm sure there's a lot more that could be said, but that's the basic overall gist of what Pheromosa's impact is imo.
 

HotFuzzBall

fuzzy-chan \(ㆁヮㆁ✿)
is an Artist
Pheromosa is busted. I don't give it long before it's banned.

Special/Mixed sets are the best right now without question. Pick the Hidden Power type, pick the checks you want to beat: Electric for Mantine/Pelipper/Toxapex, Ground for Toxapex/Marowak. Then pick a teammate that beats the other.

On the plus side though, things will even out a bit more when it goes.

Honestly going to skip the ladder for a few days until the ban happens because its not really fun seeing Phero everywhere and knowing you can't beat it.

Beyond Pheromosa though, Tapu Lele loves the ban as it loses its best switchin. MZam + Lele is a legitimately terrifying core and it only gets better now.
yeah once Pheromosa is gone (a quickban is pretty inevitable), there really isn't going to be much stopping Lele+MZam especially with the Aegislash ban .^.
 

Ema Skye

Work!
yeah once Pheromosa is gone (a quickban is pretty inevitable), there really isn't going to be much stopping Lele+MZam especially with the Aegislash ban .^.
Scarf Genesect is about it and it's no doubt going to get put up for suspect sooner or later.

Realistically, we may be looking at a Tapu Lele suspect test sometime during S/M.
 
Starmie + Lele + Char-X is looking mighty fine right now; I'm glad to have my favorite spinner back. Scarf Starmie also outspeeds phero (and what have you) so that's nice. It'll be nice to more freely use a few of the other psychics but tbh most are terrified of pheromosa so :|
 
Starmie + Lele + Char-X is looking mighty fine right now; I'm glad to have my favorite spinner back. Scarf Starmie also outspeeds phero (and what have you) so that's nice. It'll be nice to more freely use a few of the other psychics but tbh most are terrified of pheromosa so :|
Didn't even think about Starmie's return, that'll be cool because I've been missing him lol.
 
One thing I'll be curious to see post-Aegi meta will be how Dark and Psychic types are affected. Will there be less emphasis on Dark types to deal with Aegislash, and thus a decrease in their usages? Will we start seeing more Psychic types now that there's one less chunky Steel type running around, as well as one last Ghost type? If more Psychics come to the forefront, does that then keep Dark types still a major priority?
 
One thing I'll be curious to see post-Aegi meta will be how Dark and Psychic types are affected. Will there be less emphasis on Dark types to deal with Aegislash, and thus a decrease in their usages? Will we start seeing more Psychic types now that there's one less chunky Steel type running around, as well as one last Ghost type? If more Psychics come to the forefront, does that then keep Dark types still a major priority?
Probably not since Tapu Lele just nukes them with Moonblast or Focus Blast while nuking the rest of your team with a psychic move. Honestly I see this freaking thing becoming Hoopa 2.0...except you can't even use priority to stop it.
 
Probably not since Tapu Lele just nukes them with Moonblast or Focus Blast while nuking the rest of your team with a psychic move. Honestly I see this freaking thing becoming Hoopa 2.0...except you can't even use priority to stop it.
I mean, Bullet Punch?
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
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Alan Tapu Lele's ability prevents priority moves from working on grounded pokemon while the Terrain is up.

Unrelated to the above, but as many others have alluded to, we should expect Psychic types to become more viable again with Aegi gone. Jirachi is a mon I expect to be a big winner here.

Also stuff like Mega Pinsir and Mega Metagross won't be forced to run Earthquake any more lol
 

HotFuzzBall

fuzzy-chan \(ㆁヮㆁ✿)
is an Artist
I think Dark types will be kinda on a decline considering we got 4 fantastic new fairy types added in the game. Sucker Punch also took a hit and there are a lot more bugs now with Mega Pinsir getting better and also Buzzwole. I think the only relevant darks would be Bisharp due to its part Steel-typing and maybe Weavile (I think it's usage will go down though) because of its revenge killing capabilities.
 
Since someone brought up Starmie, who dropped to UU last time Aegislash was legal in OU, let me bring up someone else that shared the same fate then bounced back:


Jirachi @ Normalium Z
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Happy Hour
- Iron Head
- Zen Headbutt/Fire Punch
- Ice Punch/Fire Punch

People hyped up Happy Hour Jirachi and then it completely failed to materialize, probably due in part to Aegislash, as it eats Fire Punch and threatens Jirachi out with Shadow Ball + Sneak. Perhaps this set now has time to shine! For those unaware, Z-Happy Hour acts like Z-Conversion in that it boosts all stats by +1. Neutral 236 Speed outpaces all non-Scarf Pheromosa at +1, but you can go Jolly + max if you want to outspeed everything that Scarf Jirachi typically does. You could also invest more in bulk to setup easier, but I'm completely unsure what benchmarks to hit at this time. Moveset is flexible other than Iron Head. Zen Headbutt is particularly nice if paired with Tapu Lele due to the damage boost and priority blocking. Ice Punch hits Lando/Chomp while Fire Punch hits Scizor/Ferro/Kartana/Celesteela/Skarmory/etc. You can also experiment with Jirachi's wide special movepool with moves like Psychic, Thunderbolt, Icy Wind and even Doom Desire. Mainly, though, the point of this set is to rely on fewer flinches to beat down foes, as +1 Adamant attacks hit the same as a Jolly Band Pokemon with base 115. However, flinches are now easier than ever to get, as you outspeed everything slower than Ninjask if they lack Scarf/boosts. You can also tank quite a few hits at +1/+1 due to your natural bulk, easily living EQ from defensive Garchomp/Landorus and maybe even 3 Lava Plumes from defensive Heatran if you're lucky.

Like Porygon-Z, Jirachi can initiate a GeoXern-esque late game sweep, trading a bit of power for a lot of bulk and utility. Due to Jirachi's flexibility, I expect many variations of this set to crop up in OU.

EDIT: Mildly Greninja'd by bludz
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
yeah once Pheromosa is gone (a quickban is pretty inevitable), there really isn't going to be much stopping Lele+MZam especially with the Aegislash ban .^.
any physical scarf user will check mega-zam. Just keep it in your pocket until lategame hits. Lele is a standard wallbreaker, it's good but it's not fast and can be maneuvered around. Plus its not as if its super easy to get 'Zam onto the field when psychic terrain is still active. The combo will be very strong, but not unbeatable.
 
any physical scarf user will check mega-zam. Just keep it in your pocket until lategame hits. Lele is a standard wallbreaker, it's good but it's not fast and can be maneuvered around. Plus its not as if its super easy to get 'Zam onto the field when psychic terrain is still active. The combo will be very strong, but not unbeatable.
But scarf lele is more than usable doe.

Ash Borer On a serious note, you can't just have any scarfer, you have to have a scarfer that around I believe the base 87 speed range. which don't get me wrong there are a lot of usable mons here. You also can't just switch them into zam psychics when terrain is up without getting wrekt. So you have to wait until zam or lele already kill something if you want tonrevenge kill them with a scarfer. Assuming it's not scarf lele that is of course.
 
which makes it even easier to maneuver around and beat. Makes it pretty easy to trap for Bisharp too.
If it's locked into something you don't mind eating sure, however a lot of things come into play there too, like what if she doesn't switch and is locked into moonblast? Does your bisharp have anything chipped off of it? If so he might not even be able to eat the one moonblast.

Pursuit's only neutral damage though.
It would still hurt pretty bad tbh.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Stop posting one line posts with only 1-2 short sentences. This goes for everyone - if you have something to say, please elaborate more so it's an actual discussion (forum), and not just a brief conversation-like back and forth (discord and PS are better for these types of interactions). It's really annoying to enforce this rule but it's more annoying to scroll through a page of posts where barely anything has been said.
 

Staraptor @ Choice Band
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Double-Edge

Staraptor is a pretty solid Mon right now. CB Reckless Brave Bird/Double-Edge is absolutely insane and punches holes in teams (Seriously, this thing 2HKOs Heatran after rocks with just Brave Bird). You can also scout checks with a U-Turns that hit super hard and it gets Close Combat to destroy Rock and Steel types that aren't going to be 2HKO'd by Brave Bird. Heck, this thing can take on Celesteela depending on its set (Comes really close to a 2HKO with Brave Bird). Staraptor + Special Pheromosa + Duggy is actually super good, two nukes plus a Dug to beat Toxapex/Elecs. Quick Attack is also an option to pick stuff off or murder Pheromosa once it gets going.
 
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