Not saying it isn't working, in fact vileplume is a decent switch in to both tapu bulu and pheromosa (assuming you don't take zen headbutt or ice beam). That said, most would probably go for Mega Venusaur to complete that synergy, or if their mega slot is taken then most likely Amoonguss. If Vileplume is adorable and getting the job done though, then you go for it gurl.
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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Celticpride
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Not impressed. His team should've lost to yours far earlier barring some misplays (you needed to go Zapdos-> heatran far earlier on his Ditto PP stall for sable) and crit (donphan killing MSable doesn't happen otherwise). His sable lacking knock off should've given your heatran essentially free reign to win that game. As a point of note, once you managed to get rocks up, it would've been a great time to have Tapu Bulu pressure constantly, as he had no real answer to it. If that's band, it was GG right when Shedinja couldn't come in.
Also lava plume is still superior to flamethrower on defensive heatran.
Thanks Hun ;)
Mega Venusaur is cool and all, and is a better Pokemon in general. But Vileplume is just more badass and unpredictable. Mega Venusaur doesn't get Effect Spore, Moonblast or Black Sludge recovery. The number of times people leave their Garchomp/Kommo-O/Hydreigon/Dragonite etc in against it only to find Vileplume tanking their hit and KO'ing with Moonblast.... it happens a lot.
Stupid rookie question, but how do you use Z moves in damage calculations? No matter what Pokemon I use, no matter what Z move I pick, I end up doing.1% of damage, lol. I was just playing around seeing what a max attack, Adamant Continental Crush would do to the physical walls of OU to see if Rampardos could be a silly "check" to them just for fun. But I must be doing something wrong. Any help?
david0895
Mercy Main Btw
Because the base power of the moves is setter to 1.
The only exceptions are moves the z-moves obtained from z-crystals of specific pokemon like Decidueye or Pikachu.
You can easily set the basepower of the move yourself. Look the move up on say, Serebii.net and find out the basepower of the Z move. For example, I'm guessing Headsmash would be the move of choice for Rampardos to wall break. A quick look up: http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-sm/headsmash.shtml and we see that the Z-power is 200. Slap that in the calc and you can see how it fares against common OU walls.
252+ Atk Rampardos Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 244-288 (73 - 86.2%)
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned deucer.
A defensive bulu set?
He's got leech seed/whirlwind/taunt/ fairy super fang but those don't pair that we'll together, idk his defense is high and his counters are predictable enough when paired with heatran
He's got leech seed/whirlwind/taunt/ fairy super fang but those don't pair that we'll together, idk his defense is high and his counters are predictable enough when paired with heatran
So peaked around 1500 and in that climb these are the things that helped consistency.
1.A way to reliably deal with phero. If your team is weak to this thing its pretty mich a auto loss. Ive honestly found the best set to be choice scarf. It allows it to revenge kill and get surprise kos against quite a few things. Plus late game you can have 600 speed and a constantly boosting attack to clean up, its disgusting.
2. Tapu lele. This things a monster. Once again I think choice scarf is best set. Its still strong and a mon this powerful and fast that cant be picked off by priority is insane. Pair it with stuff like phero and mzam and you have a very powerful heavy offense base.
3.Steel answers. Ive begun to run choice specs zone with enough speed to outspeed jolly a marowak and unlike oras it always seems to do work wirh the amount of celesteelas running around. Celesteela is one of the hardest things to deal with now and having the ability to completely take it out of the game is very strong. I think its like top ten in usage so zone carries weight.
4.Priority. Even with Lele runnimg around this is still good. With so many frail fast threats somehing like bandnite cleans incredibly well.
5.hazards arent that important atm. While its never a bad idea to get up rocks, With the amount of firepower amd pressure going around many games can go thr distance without rocks. And even of they go up alot of threats now dont have a huge weakness to them, allowing teams to plow through them and forego removal.
Overall I find heavy offense to be the most consistent playstyle atm. Its simply too much power to reliably run stall or balance without getting ran over every other match. The team I used to climb was: Lele, Zam, Bandnite, scarfphero,specszone, and landorus. Ive tried a myriad of teams and styles in sumo and this team seemed to have the necessary tools to consistently deal with or outplay many of the cores on the ladder. It has a bad mu against shedinja based stall but every thing else ot has answers for. FTR I know longer think phero needs to be banned. Its a ton of counterplay for it, even with scarf. Lele is actually far more threatening imo and still not sure that deserves the boot.
1.A way to reliably deal with phero. If your team is weak to this thing its pretty mich a auto loss. Ive honestly found the best set to be choice scarf. It allows it to revenge kill and get surprise kos against quite a few things. Plus late game you can have 600 speed and a constantly boosting attack to clean up, its disgusting.
2. Tapu lele. This things a monster. Once again I think choice scarf is best set. Its still strong and a mon this powerful and fast that cant be picked off by priority is insane. Pair it with stuff like phero and mzam and you have a very powerful heavy offense base.
3.Steel answers. Ive begun to run choice specs zone with enough speed to outspeed jolly a marowak and unlike oras it always seems to do work wirh the amount of celesteelas running around. Celesteela is one of the hardest things to deal with now and having the ability to completely take it out of the game is very strong. I think its like top ten in usage so zone carries weight.
4.Priority. Even with Lele runnimg around this is still good. With so many frail fast threats somehing like bandnite cleans incredibly well.
5.hazards arent that important atm. While its never a bad idea to get up rocks, With the amount of firepower amd pressure going around many games can go thr distance without rocks. And even of they go up alot of threats now dont have a huge weakness to them, allowing teams to plow through them and forego removal.
Overall I find heavy offense to be the most consistent playstyle atm. Its simply too much power to reliably run stall or balance without getting ran over every other match. The team I used to climb was: Lele, Zam, Bandnite, scarfphero,specszone, and landorus. Ive tried a myriad of teams and styles in sumo and this team seemed to have the necessary tools to consistently deal with or outplay many of the cores on the ladder. It has a bad mu against shedinja based stall but every thing else ot has answers for. FTR I know longer think phero needs to be banned. Its a ton of counterplay for it, even with scarf. Lele is actually far more threatening imo and still not sure that deserves the boot.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned deucer.
Unless lele starts running life orb calm mind I think I have a really good check/counter?
You can at least safety figure out the set and counter from there and 90% of the time I'm going to click scald/dragon tail
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 160-190 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Maybe a positive nature would push it over the top, it's to cold outside
Also I really like the post above, glad shednija counters it xD
to avoid specs thunderbolt/psyshok 2 hit kill i've found 248 hp, 140 def 120 SpD to be perfect
no investment iron tail does over half if they are only running 4 def evs, strongest hit he has
You can at least safety figure out the set and counter from there and 90% of the time I'm going to click scald/dragon tail
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 160-190 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Maybe a positive nature would push it over the top, it's to cold outside
Also I really like the post above, glad shednija counters it xD
to avoid specs thunderbolt/psyshok 2 hit kill i've found 248 hp, 140 def 120 SpD to be perfect
no investment iron tail does over half if they are only running 4 def evs, strongest hit he has
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I only played a couple shedinja stalls but couldn't beat either. I misplayed a couple times but if your team loses off of one misplay against something more than likely its a bad matchup imo.
I think that the fact that not only stall but also balance has real trouble in the current meta is a sign that some of the things running around are simply too powerful for the tier. Lele does feel like the most prominent of these threats right now because it exacerbates all the other fast, frail mons like Lando, Phero, and Greninja by protecting them from priority, and all of those already are causing a ton of trouble. The main reason we haven't had any quickbans after Aegi in spite of the meta going off the rails is that it's tough to pinpoint a single threat that's responsible. Right now Lele feels like the one who's warping the meta the most, though Phero is also up there. Right now there's about 5 or so mons which individually are difficult but not impossible to deal with, but in combination they blow the meta wide open.
Yeah I agree. Scarf Phero is actually silly. When you can revenge kill a plus 2 M.gyara and proceed to sweep with boosted hjk thats a problem. Once you get rid of the steels on the opponents team you can just go ham. I found that most teams are soooo fragile and dependent on their A.Marowak or Celesteela to check shit that if you sack a couple things or can kill them outright their team with just fall quickly to psychic spam. Its a really volatile meta right now. the fact the only thing that team really seemed to have trouble with is the most niche of stall is pretty damning. And honestly I misplayed in those matches so I might just be bad and it doesn't struggle with shed stall.
Well the fact that Shedinja is even mentioned should be a clue. The last time I can remember Shed being mentioned to check anything was Kyogre in Gen 5 Ubers when Soul Dew was unreleased. You know something's neutral coverage hits too hard when it forces people to consider something that needs that much babying just to not instantly die.
Thanks, funny thing is even if you switch on a move that does major damage, they will attempt to use it again, which you can use disable on that turn, preventing their attack and forcing a switch after, allowing the use of a sub to prepare for the next attack. IF the next mon attacks that sub, they will do so while getting burned, and then while Frosslass is exposed, she can use disable, and even if they use a different attack that turn to KO her, she will have disabled their last attack, which might neuter the mon due to it being their stab move, allowing another team mate to set up under neutral, non stab hits.
Also, since I've had Frosslass for years, she was part of the inspiration in allowing me to design the character on the left(the right one was partly based on Rampardos and his Ogre-like attack stat):
http://i.imgur.com/u3i3Y4I.png
Now, if only Megas had been given to more mons.
Lele + Alakazam is so overrated. Here are the reasons why:
A. Unless Alakazam is running HP Fire, it literally has 0 business staying in vs Genesect or Scizor anyway, the two biggest priority users in OU.
B. Alakazam is a lategame sweep, so it is usually at 100% around lategame anyway since it doesn't have many opportunities to come in in the first place due to the fact that it cannot switch into many attacks freely. Because of this, you can usually live one priority attack anyway.
C. Do you try to sweep with a Sand Rush Excadrill with only 5 sand turns? No? Then why would you rely on terrain that is only up for 5 turns?
(Note: setter that sets 5 turns over 8; it is hard to get the abuser in after terrain / sand is set, so unless you have terrain extender / smooth rock, these sweeps are hard to support with Psychic Terrain / Sandstorm. Let's face it: majority of Lele users do not use terrain extender.)
D. Lele and Alakazam together have roughly the same coverage, so they literally hit the same things and are also weak to the same things. Using them together does not make much sense outside of Psychic Terrain.
E. Alakazam is powerful enough to where it does not need the power boost from Psychic Terrain anyway, and there are many better abusers of Psychic Terrain.
F. Cores are like relationships: both partners must put in work; if it is one-sided, then it is time to break up. Lele does not gain much from having Alakazam as a partner (in fact, her scarf set can arguably do Zam's exact job) -- meanwhile Alakazam gains immunity to priority for like 2 whole turns you can get it in safely & yeah they're both weak to the same things so... time to break up.
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Some of my bias might come from having a webs Gengar team which literally fucks this core in the ass, but I have never really been able to see the logic behind this core. It is weak to the same things and have the same coverage, it is almost (not exact, but really close) to having two of the same pokemon. It just doesn't make sense to this player.
A. Unless Alakazam is running HP Fire, it literally has 0 business staying in vs Genesect or Scizor anyway, the two biggest priority users in OU.
B. Alakazam is a lategame sweep, so it is usually at 100% around lategame anyway since it doesn't have many opportunities to come in in the first place due to the fact that it cannot switch into many attacks freely. Because of this, you can usually live one priority attack anyway.
C. Do you try to sweep with a Sand Rush Excadrill with only 5 sand turns? No? Then why would you rely on terrain that is only up for 5 turns?
(Note: setter that sets 5 turns over 8; it is hard to get the abuser in after terrain / sand is set, so unless you have terrain extender / smooth rock, these sweeps are hard to support with Psychic Terrain / Sandstorm. Let's face it: majority of Lele users do not use terrain extender.)
D. Lele and Alakazam together have roughly the same coverage, so they literally hit the same things and are also weak to the same things. Using them together does not make much sense outside of Psychic Terrain.
E. Alakazam is powerful enough to where it does not need the power boost from Psychic Terrain anyway, and there are many better abusers of Psychic Terrain.
F. Cores are like relationships: both partners must put in work; if it is one-sided, then it is time to break up. Lele does not gain much from having Alakazam as a partner (in fact, her scarf set can arguably do Zam's exact job) -- meanwhile Alakazam gains immunity to priority for like 2 whole turns you can get it in safely & yeah they're both weak to the same things so... time to break up.
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Some of my bias might come from having a webs Gengar team which literally fucks this core in the ass, but I have never really been able to see the logic behind this core. It is weak to the same things and have the same coverage, it is almost (not exact, but really close) to having two of the same pokemon. It just doesn't make sense to this player.
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Been running more Metagross with Lele...it can throw out nasty Zen Headbutts if needed while not necessarily needing terrain to do what it does, it requires less support than Zam does from my experience.
Yeah I've tried Slowking and it's a cool idea but it doesn't really hold up :/ it kinda sorta works for non-Spec'd Lele for a while but ultimately from my experience Lele will beat it 1v1 9 times out of 10. Then again it's entirely possible that I'm just shit so if anyone is sure Slowking can work then please let me know, I'd really love another way to deal with it.
(Also you can click Dragon Tail all you want but I don't think you'll get very far :P Best Slowking w/out Iron Tail can do is a 4HKO I think, but then again Iron Tail is not really a great move to be running on him, so yeah.)
My favourite Lele check atm is a Celesteela spread of 252 HP / 156+ SpD / rest in Defence w/ Lefties and although Thunderbolt (which I haven't seen a lot of, not sure it's that common?) and Specs Hidden Power Fire are scary, on the whole it is a pretty solid answer (Heavy Slam OHKOs obviously). (I'm not sure how optimal this spread is as a whole so any advice welcome) The main problem is when Lele is paired with Magnezone and there's only so far you can "play around" Magnezone. (You could run EQ I guess? I don't really like it. Fire Blast does over half though so there is that)
PK Gaming mentioned why this is one of the best Mon rn and I think the fact that its EV spread can be pretty flexible is a big reason why. I know I said my spread is probably not optimal but it still works pretty well, and I've used a few different spreads on steela for different teams and I have never really been disappointed at how well it holds up.
Also it's not news but I'm impressed with how consistent Mega Venusaur still is. Apart from being amazing in it's own right, it also makes a pretty godly core with Celesteela; the two I'm finding are an extremely effective defensive backbone right now that isn't completely passive. Not autonomous but I love it. I think Knock Off is more or less mandatory on M/Venu at this point because aside from threatening Psychics somewhat and making Steela's life easier, there are certain things(read: all the good breakers) you really don't want to let in for free. You don't really lose too much since Celesteela fits Fire coverage on its set naturally which covers you against what you would usually run Hidden Power Fire for anyway.
The real reason MegaZam is OP is because Beast Boost is everywhere and Trace'ing that ability turns it into Pheremosa on steroids.
Obvious bias aside, if you want to run Lele+MegaZam use Taunt+3 attacks Lele, preferably with Terrain Extender. Zams's draw isn't only dodging priority for 2 turns, it's that+dishing out strong ass Psychics. Lele's job as an attacker is to dent Celestela, MZor, Chansey etc enough so can they don't have enough healthy to take on MegaZam. If used correctly, not only you'll gain a very strong match up vs Stall (providing you have other breakers to deal with scenarios that involve Duggy and stuff) but also can get you a couple of extra kills with Zam at the final few turns of the game while dodging revenge kills from priority. And run Modest Zam, no point using Timid atm.
Yeah no, heavy offense is no where near the "most consistent" with Phero, a lot of Swift Swim and threats like SG Magearna around. And it's balance which has taken a hit, not stall. It's as good as ever with Tapu Bulu, Celeestela, Mantine and the mighty Toxapex alongside the Duggy as a stall breaker trapper (eats up Hoopa-U, Lele, Xukitree). Even your own team that you posted gets completely thrashed by stall teams, and you yourself even mentioned losing 2 out of 2 times to Shedinja stall. All tho random Z-Moves are risky. Bulky Offense is easily the best playstyle at the moment.
And people complaining about Lele, learn to use bulky steel types and physical attackers.
Lele and pheromosa imo the two most broken mons rn in the current meta. Lele has the coverage to hit almost all its checks. Scarf can break offensive teams pretty ezpz. Specs is so powerful too. Specs Psyshock does like 60-71 to Chansey. Pheromosa not really much to explain we all know it's getting the boot sooner or later...Hopefully soon. Genescet is honestly something that needs to go after gets free u turns for days and has an ability that works amazing with its endless coverage
I mean I'm pretty sure I harped on consistency of climbing. I'll take the dozens of wins against the matchups that team won against the several I lost because of a niche stall archetype. And iirc it was only once I lost against shed stall and it was because I missplayed with my Lando with rocks and let shedinja Shadow Sneak me at 20% because I underestimated how much it would do. Every other stall I beat. 1 lost to shed stall doesn't exactly scream thrashed. And a bulky steel isn't really going to do anything if you have Magnezone in the back. And if celesteelas are going to be forced to run Shed Shell to counter act that its a win for offense anyway because it becomes much easier to wear it down at that point. I literally had zero problems dealing with the toxa/steela cores on the ladder because between zone, lando I, and the pyschic spam flying around they didn't really have any free switch ins at all. All it takes is one double switch and that base falls apart.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned deucer.
0 Atk Slowking Iron Tail vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 146-172 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If lele uses specs thunderbolt on me I can switch into dugtrio/heatran/sableye/shednija and revenge it same with everything else, I have switch ins and I now know their set. On my team Slowking does it all and I use it and Zapdos to PP stall these Celesteela even if I'm toxiced
Iron tail definitely can smash through it harder than shadow ball can.
If lele uses specs thunderbolt on me I can switch into dugtrio/heatran/sableye/shednija and revenge it same with everything else, I have switch ins and I now know their set. On my team Slowking does it all and I use it and Zapdos to PP stall these Celesteela even if I'm toxiced
Stall is a playstyle that's easy to use but requires 0 carelessness. Of course, you can beat newer players trying out stall by double switches but it doesnt work vs pros which I doubt u face at 1500. I assume you're running Scarf Lele in which case Chansey is enough to beat Lele, doesnt even require the steels. Mega Zam is hard countered by MSable and lol@Scarf Phero vs stall. Lando is your SR user so it isn't breaking defensive cores any soon. But if you had Lele of a CM or Taunt variant with CM on MZam as well then I would assume u can beat stall.
In Oras OU I peaked at like 1870, its not like I'm new either. Only way you beat stall unless you have like a bandar, char y core is outplaying it anyway. If your team has to tools to do so and then you do then you win.
Also Chansey is like 30th in usage. Steela is teetering on top ten. The team I built was about consistency of laddering. Stats would indicate that you are far more likely to run into a Steela than a chansey anyway.
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