Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

[M BLADE]

I've been using defensive DD Mega Charizard-X and it's nice to see how effective it is in the current meta.

As a dragon, it offers a resistance to electric while being neutral to fairy, which means Tapu Koko, Xurkitree and friends won't be able to take him out as easily. It's neutral to ice too, so Weavile and friends won't bother you as much.
Comes with a nice resistance to grass meaning it can be a great switch in to Tapu Bulu as well (watch out for Stone Edge though). Walls many fire mons as well, at least the ones lacking rock or ground coverage.

As a fire mon, it's neutral to water which means a lot; it's not dead weight against rain teams, it's not scared by scald (it's neutral to it, and can't burn Char-Z), while resisting bug, making one of the only mons that can take all of Genesect's attacking options; the best it can do is Ice Beam. If you're healthy you can easily take one and fry this annoying insect.
It's original forme can also play some mindgames with the opponent/ you don't have to mega evolve right away, you can stay as Charizard if needed due to it's different resistances.

Fire/Dragon is still as awesome as ever as your STAB options, missing out only the connonly used Heatran and Tapu Fini (there's no Mega Altaria/Mega Diancie yet to worry about).

You still have to worry about Landorus-T, T-Tar and such, but it checks so many things while at the same time being strong and threatening to sweep a team if left ucnhecked... all in one poke. I'm amazed.

PS: this defensive mon needs SpD investiment to be able of countering this many threats, just to be clear. Max HP , heavy SpD investiment is ideal since it's defense it naturally high.

 

[Martin]

Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 116 Def / 144 Spe OR 248 HP / 116 SpD / 144 Spe
Bold / Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Hurricane / Toxic

If you want to speed creep a little more, change to a timid nature and go from 56 EVs upwards

Moltres is an interesting Pokemon at the moment due to a couple of meta trends. It acts as a reasonably consistent stop to a number of very dangerous Pokemon including Tapu Bulu and Pheromosa, and with Flame Body it is very capable of crippling Pokemon which have a tendency to spam U-turn--making it a good deterrent similar to Zapdos. This in conjunction with its access to Will-O-Wisp and reliable recovery allows Moltres to carve out a small niche off of rain (where it holds another niche entirely) as a utility Pokemon on bulky offense. Even uninvested, base 125 SpA is enough to make neutral targets break a sweat from switching into repeated Fire Blasts or Hurricanes or even Flamethrowers to a lesser extent, and it is just generally nice as a catch-all check for a lot of the kinds of stuff that defensive Talonflame covered last gen. That said, it has quite a lot of issues that keep it from being much more than a niche pick. While the resistances to types like fairy, ground, grass, fighting and U-turn are all nice, it is weak to three very dominant types in electric, water and rock, and its dependence on Stealth Rock being off of the field is a major headache when using it too because it restricts the way that you can play a fair amount and means that the team either needs enough offensive pressure to prevent them ever going up or extensive hazard control to ensure that it can keep checking things.There are a number of other issues, but I don't really feel the need to point them out as I never said this thing was anything particularly special. The listed EVs outpace everything from timid Magearna downwards, which is important to be able to fire off a Fire Blast before it can use Thunderbolt on you, and your choice of physically defensive vs. specially defensive depends on whether you appreciate the ability to check different things more consistently (for example, if you opt to run SpD, naughty CB Pheromosa has a chance to 2HKO with High Jump Kick and CB Tapu Bulu's Zen Headbutt is taken a lot less comfortably too, but on the flipside you are able to take modest Specs Fleur Cannon if Stealth Rock are up with SpD and you generally switch into special attackers much more comfortably).

In addition, while I'm not going to write it up now, I also urge people to try Choice Specs Moltres on rain too because it is able to dent a fuckload with Specs Hurricane and also acts as a consistent stop to Ferrothorn, which can be... *ahem*... a thorn in the style's side. (*waits for the series of slow claps at that awful pun*). It faces a lot of the same issues as the defensive set and has a speed stat which leaves a fair amount to be desired, but it hits so hard that it is really hard to not see the appeal of it.

 

[BeardyBennett]

Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 116 Def / 144 Spe OR 248 HP / 116 SpD / 144 Spe
Bold / Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Hurricane / Toxic

If you want to speed creep a little more, change to a timid nature and go from 56 EVs upwards

Moltres is an interesting Pokemon at the moment due to a couple of meta trends. It acts as a reasonably consistent stop to a number of very dangerous Pokemon including Tapu Bulu and Pheromosa, and with Flame Body it is very capable of crippling Pokemon which have a tendency to spam U-turn--making it a good deterrent similar to Zapdos. This in conjunction with its access to Will-O-Wisp and reliable recovery allows Moltres to carve out a small niche off of rain (where it holds another niche entirely) as a utility Pokemon on bulky offense. Even uninvested, base 125 SpA is enough to make neutral targets break a sweat from switching into repeated Fire Blasts or Hurricanes or even Flamethrowers to a lesser extent, and it is just generally nice as a catch-all check for a lot of the kinds of stuff that defensive Talonflame covered last gen. That said, it has quite a lot of issues that keep it from being much more than a niche pick. While the resistances to types like fairy, ground, grass, fighting and U-turn are all nice, it is weak to three very dominant types in electric, water and rock, and its dependence on Stealth Rock being off of the field is a major headache when using it too because it restricts the way that you can play a fair amount and means that the team either needs enough offensive pressure to prevent them ever going up or extensive hazard control to ensure that it can keep checking things.There are a number of other issues, but I don't really feel the need to point them out as I never said this thing was anything particularly special. The listed EVs outpace everything from timid Magearna downwards, which is important to be able to fire off a Fire Blast before it can use Thunderbolt on you, and your choice of physically defensive vs. specially defensive depends on whether you appreciate the ability to check different things more consistently (for example, if you opt to run SpD, naughty CB Pheromosa has a chance to 2HKO with High Jump Kick and CB Tapu Bulu's Zen Headbutt is taken a lot less comfortably too, but on the flipside you are able to take modest Specs Fleur Cannon if Stealth Rock are up with SpD and you generally switch into special attackers much more comfortably).

In addition, while I'm not going to write it up now, I also urge people to try Choice Specs Moltres on rain too because it is able to dent a fuckload with Specs Hurricane and also acts as a consistent stop to Ferrothorn, which can be... *ahem*... a thorn in the style's side. (*waits for the series of slow claps at that awful pun*). It faces a lot of the same issues as the defensive set and has a speed stat which leaves a fair amount to be desired, but it hits so hard that it is really hard to not see the appeal of it.

Fire is a great defensive type, and that's been especially true in this gen so far. It seems like defensive Fire types are (pardon the pun) hot right now. A-Marowak and M-Zard X are the big names. However, this Moltres set as well as bulky Chandelure, Rotom-H, bulky Flame Body Talonflame, and even Turtonator can do some great things as well. There's just so much emphasis on Fairy firepower, and the Steel types that are to beat said Fairies, that good Fire bulk is able to fit on a lot of teams and find a great deal of success.

 

[PK Bash]

Fire is a great defensive type, and that's been especially true in this gen so far. It seems like defensive Fire types are (pardon the pun) hot right now. A-Marowak and M-Zard X are the big names. However, this Moltres set as well as bulky Chandelure, Rotom-H, bulky Flame Body Talonflame, and even Turtonator can do some great things as well. There's just so much emphasis on Fairy firepower, and the Steel types that are to beat said Fairies, that good Fire bulk is able to fit on a lot of teams and find a great deal of success.

Surprised you didn't mention Heatran, despite Dugtrio it still puts in a lot of work. Notably is probably the best response to Genesect and is very good vs Celesteela, checks Magearna etc. More consistent than others as well by virtue of Rocks neutrality. Not really seen much of it in this thread, probably because its still p much the same Heatran. If we're talking effective Fire Types now, we surely have to mention it.

 

[BeardyBennett]

Surprised you didn't mention Heatran, despite Dugtrio it still puts in a lot of work. Notably is probably the best response to Genesect and is very good vs Celesteela, checks Magearna etc. More consistent than others as well by virtue of Rocks neutrality. Not really seen much of it in this thread, probably because its still p much the same Heatran. If we're talking effective Fire Types now, we surely have to mention it.

Oh absolutely. There's just so many that can do really well this gen that it's hard to keep track of all of them. I might actually have to give Heatran a try, I've never actually used it before outside of random battles lol.

 

[BearBait]

Oh absolutely. There's just so many that can do really well this gen that it's hard to keep track of all of them. I might actually have to give Heatran a try, I've never actually used it before outside of random battles lol.

Heatran is great in this meta. He checks the abundance of fairys in this gen since he as a 1/4x resistance to their stab (He checks Lele really well imo.). He's synergy with Bulu and Toxapex is also insane.

 

[Morkal]

Hardly. For starters, Talonflame is not grounded and is thus unaffected by Psychic Terrain. This means it actually is vulnerable to priority.

Talonflame has lost many of its niches. Defensive sets relied on Gale Wings as a proxy for speed EVs so it could invest in bulk, which it can no longer do.

Offensive sets can now take advantage of a single Brave Bird or resort to the much weaker item less Acrobatics. The support required for a 4x SR weak Pokémon is not worth it without insane power or set up ability (see Zard-Y and Volc). Why would you run Talonflame at all when you can invest in better sweepers?

Flame Body is worthless and hardly a selling point.

Gengar is still a speedy attacker with fearsome Ghost-STAB and insane coverage. Talonflame is no longer a prime revenge killer, sweeper, nor fairy check. Its heyday has come and gone.

Psychic Terrain doesn't affect Flying / Levitating units? Well shit, scratch that part of my original T-Flame post then.
See, I'd still run Talonflame as a niche attacker with max attack and speed evs, with Flame Body as an ability, Flare Blitz, Brave Bird, U-Turn, and Roost. With Expert Belt as an item (although I've been switching between LO and Ebelt lately, still not sure which one I like better), it has a niche, albeit much smaller, but still damn good one. Don't underestimate Physical Fire / Flying STAB coverage with 126 speed

 

[Tangelo]

I'm interested in people's thoughts on the influence Arena Trap has on the meta. Arena Trap is the most uncompetitive ability avaliable imo. There is very little skill involved in trapping a mon, and it invalidates a lot of would-be good mons like Heatran and Jirachi. Trapping (including Magnet Pull) in general is uncompetitive and always will be.

 

[oreofestar]

I mean Talonflame might have a niche....in UU

 

[Twilightphoenix10]

I'm interested in people's thoughts on the influence Arena Trap has on the meta. Arena Trap is the most uncompetitive ability avaliable imo. There is very little skill involved in trapping a mon, and it invalidates a lot of would-be good mons like Heatran and Jirachi. Trapping (including Magnet Pull) in general is uncompetitive and always will be.

the thing about most trappers is that they are frail and can be taken down eaisly for most teams as long as you're packing a coverage move. Magnazone is by far one of the harder ones to kill by virtue of its bulk, but it can't take more than 2-3 hits from a hp fire from magerna depending on EVs and items. Trapping isn't a big deal, you just have to know how to play around it. the whole point of trapping is for that mon to deal with a specific threat for example dugtrio can trap magerna and magerna is pretty much going to die to EQ, is it fair? probably not, but at the same time dugtio will likely get revenge killed by another mon with ease and likely won't impact the rest of the team. Magnazone can be delt with by steal types like magerna as long as they are packing a coverage move and have enough bulk to tank one or two hits from it which most of them do.

As for fire types, I'm really liking Arcanine right now. Intimidate + will-o-wisp + morning sun + flare blitz and extreme speed work wonders against some of the more heavely offensive mons like physical phero and kartana. Can't say how many times this guy has saved my bacon, it helps that he is one of my overall favorite fire types and I hope he gets a nice place in OU this gen.

 

[Miyami~~]

Talonflame is gonna be the best NU mon or an average RU mon.

 

[WebBowser]

Talonflame is gonna be the best NU mon or an average RU mon.

Hardly. NU was on the verge of banning flechlander, who is considerably weaker then talonflame (even now). Talonflame is likely going to wind up like gen 5/6 Darmantian, a very solid UU mon with hard hitting STAB(s), but generally outclassed in OU.

 

[Wandering Wobbuffet]

Hardly. NU was on the verge of banning flechlander, who is considerably weaker then talonflame (even now). Talonflame is likely going to wind up like gen 5/6 Darmantian, a very solid UU mon with hard hitting STAB(s), but generally outclassed in OU.

Fletchinder was so good because of the priority though. Talonflame will just be similar to physical swellow last gen with a cb set. I think it could also be similar to gen 5 NU Bulk Up Braviary.

 

[BeardyBennett]

Talonflame is gonna be the best NU mon or an average RU mon.

Fletchinder was so good because of the priority though. Talonflame will just be similar to physical swellow last gen with a cb set. I think it could also be similar to gen 5 NU Bulk Up Braviary.

I think you guys are really underselling Talonflame. It still is ridiculously fast, has good STAB types and moves, (plus just how great Flying STAB is to begin with) and has U-Turn, Swords Dance, and Tailwind. Acrobatics at full health still works with Gale Wings and still hits decently hard. Plus, Talonflame has good bulky Will-O Flame Body sets that works quite nicely in the current meta. I agree with WebBowser in that it will likely be a solid UU mon, but I see no way that it drops to RU or even NU. It's still a good Pokemon with a lot of usefulness.

 

[B. Katarn]

I think you guys are really underselling Talonflame. It still is ridiculously fast, has good STAB types and moves, (plus just how great Flying STAB is to begin with) and has U-Turn, Swords Dance, and Tailwind. Acrobatics at full health still works with Gale Wings and still hits decently hard. Plus, Talonflame has good bulky Will-O Flame Body sets that works quite nicely in the current meta. I agree with WebBowser in that it will likely be a solid UU mon, but I see no way that it drops to RU or even NU. It's still a good Pokemon with a lot of usefulness.

I feel that Gale Wings will still survive on a few sets and be an almost equal ability that is more situational but can help.
The no-item Acrobatics and Bulk Up defensive set loses priority healing, sure. But Flame Body gives an extra chance to burn (which would often be redundant with WoW but might catch the U-turns as well) while Gale Wings can give priority Acrobatics if healed up recently. In that case, either ability is a valid choice.

 

[Ema Skye]

Yeah, Talonflame is an easy candidate for NU this gen. There is like nothing redeemable about it.

- Gale Wings renders Brave Bird pointless, so it's stuck with Acrobatics as its only Flying-move (unless someone wants to try Fly but I don't see that working well). Acrobatics means it forfeits an item, meaning it's stuck with that 81 Attack that's really not turning heads. Not to mention that you lose it if something sneezes on you, so you need to play it incredibly safe (like Shedinja level of safety since it loses all viability the moment it loses one HP).

- Flame Body isn't a bad ability, but it's bad on Talonflame. It's bad for the same reason Cursed Body is bad on Gengar, as it's an ability designed to take hits on a frail Pokemon. So it's probably not going to activate frequently, with your below average 78/71/69 defenses. Not to mention the 4x weakness to Stealth Rock. Sure you have Roost but it's only going to take you so far with that bulk. Not to mention that speed EVs actually matter on it this time, which compromises your bulk. It's a lose/lose either way because this thing isn't designed to take hits.

It's a lot like Swellow in stats, and you know what tier Swellow was in for Gen 6?

...NU

 

[mew-2Chainz]

he's got a nice speed tier, but a base 81 attack is really bland, his movepool is pretty shallow and the huge SR weakness just become SO apparent once priority brave bird leaves the equation.

I'd probably run him something like this now:

Talonflame @ Power Herb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fly
- Acrobatics
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost

 

[kirigherkins]

I'm not even confident that base 130 mons can muscle through everything I want them to kill without taking a single hit anymore...let alone base 81.

It's a shame, any time I could've possibly thought to fill a slot with talon, there's always something I'd rather put there instead and that's the problem. I haven't seen a single one all gen.

 

[volx757]

the thing about most trappers is that they are frail and can be taken down eaisly for most teams as long as you're packing a coverage move. Magnazone is by far one of the harder ones to kill by virtue of its bulk, but it can't take more than 2-3 hits from a hp fire from magerna depending on EVs and items. Trapping isn't a big deal, you just have to know how to play around it. the whole point of trapping is for that mon to deal with a specific threat for example dugtrio can trap magerna and magerna is pretty much going to die to EQ, is it fair? probably not, but at the same time dugtio will likely get revenge killed by another mon with ease and likely won't impact the rest of the team. Magnazone can be delt with by steal types like magerna as long as they are packing a coverage move and have enough bulk to tank one or two hits from it which most of them do.

I don't think bulk should ever come into the conversation when discussing trappers, because they don't need bulk. If any trapper did have real bulk or real power, it would be among the most broken mons in the game. Arena trap alone is a devastatingly powerful ability because it requires 0 skill and guarantees you a kill (if you use it to trap the things you're supposed to).

"... but at the same time dugtio will likely get revenge killed by another mon with ease and likely won't impact the rest of the team. "

I would disagree with both parts of this statement. 1: Duggy doesn't have to stay in and let itself get killed unless it's job is done, and even then if it's sash is intact it's probly worth switching out cause it can put in work again later. 2: removing 1/6th of a team definitely impacts the rest of the team. It can decide the entire game. MSab is a great example; many Heatran have no problem taking care of it, but when paired with duggy (the broken part of the combo its so obvious), even just the possibility that duggy might switch in is enough to prevent Heatran from making a move on Sab.

 

[BeardyBennett]

Yeah, Talonflame is an easy candidate for NU this gen. There is like nothing redeemable about it.

- Gale Wings renders Brave Bird pointless, so it's stuck with Acrobatics as its only Flying-move (unless someone wants to try Fly but I don't see that working well). Acrobatics means it forfeits an item, meaning it's stuck with that 81 Attack that's really not turning heads. Not to mention that you lose it if something sneezes on you, so you need to play it incredibly safe (like Shedinja level of safety since it loses all viability the moment it loses one HP).

- Flame Body isn't a bad ability, but it's bad on Talonflame. It's bad for the same reason Cursed Body is bad on Gengar, as it's an ability designed to take hits on a frail Pokemon. So it's probably not going to activate frequently, with your below average 78/71/69 defenses. Not to mention the 4x weakness to Stealth Rock. Sure you have Roost but it's only going to take you so far with that bulk. Not to mention that speed EVs actually matter on it this time, which compromises your bulk. It's a lose/lose either way because this thing isn't designed to take hits.

It's a lot like Swellow in stats, and you know what tier Swellow was in for Gen 6?

...NU

If you'll compare it to Swellow, allow me to compare it to Hawlucha, a BL bird. Hawlucha and it have similar bulk, similar attack stats (92 to 81, a difference for sure but not crazy), and Talonflame is faster. Both can boost through Swords Dance and potentially attack before the opponent (Hawlucha with Unburden, TFlame with GaleAcro). Talonflame however also boasts a decent second ability in Flame Body, and great utility with Tailwind (gimmicky I admit) and Will-O Wisp. 126 Speed is still great. There's not much released right now faster, and what is is pretty much either trash, a Mega, or Pheromosa. Plus, unlike Swellow, it doesn't have to burn itself to actually get some powerful hits off. It can simply Swords Dance if need be. And again, it has far better versatility and utility thanks to Flame Body (great for prevalent U-Turn) and Will-O Wisp. Obviously it's not going to be a dominating OU force anymore, and I get that SR is a major issue for it, but I'd hardly call it a bad Pokemon.

 

[Shurtugal]

Why are we discussing Talonflame?

It is literally irrelevant in OU after its nerfs.

It can no longer run a bulky set or reliably spam priority. All it is good for is maybe revenge killing but it's rocks weakness & lack of ability to outspeed many of the threats it needs without gale wings (read: pheromosa, ash-greninja, mega alakazam, or any of the random scarf mon littering the tier) make it entirely outclassed by better fire types like charizard or even volcarona

 

[Celticpride]

And with that let's call the great Talonflame discussion dead. Let's talk about something actually relevant to PokeBank OU or PreBank OU. There's no point is speculating if Talon will be RU or NU when we don't know what either of those tiers will look like.

 

[Shurtugal]

I have had a lot of fun using AV Magearna and U-Turn Landorus-T. Between Landorus's intimidate and insane physical bulk and Magearna's huge bulk from assault vest and access to volt switch, they form a powerful slow voltturn core that is able to bring in powerful threats that would otherwise have a harder time switching in, such as Mega Alakazam or Specs Lele.

However, this core can be implemented on stall with good wish passers in Alomomola, which is a solid choice the meta as it can wall most Metagross, physical genesect, Kingdra, and Greninja while some of the common switches to Alomomola in Bulu or Lele are walled by Magearna (Lele) or Landorus (Bulu) that easily eat up attacks and absorb that fat wish right up.

Has anyone else tried this voltturn core?

(Side note: hp fire magearna lures a lot of things for lele like gene ferro sciz, altho one should be weary of Heatran)

 

[Schpoonman]

What moves besides HP Fire and Volt Switch would you run? Fleur Cannon and Aura Sphere?

 

[Shurtugal]

I prefer Fleur and Flash Canon. It depends if you would rather hit heatran and magnezone or gene ferro sciz. I just wanted to mention it since hp fire magearna hasn't caught on enough for people to play cautiously with ferro gene scizor yet and I've preferred it over hitting tran and zone. although flash canon could be expendable, I feel having it gives you a cushion when you just want to use a reliable move v lele & possible landt / steel type switch (can't vswitch cuz ground, can't fleur cuz spatk drop if steel switch; if you flash gene / sciz / ferro switch it's easy to follow up with hp fire)