I disagree with your points about trapinch. Now in SS, onix lost any ability to avoid getting trapped by trapinch with the removal of z moves. Pawniard lost knock off, which means it needs to rely on an iron head flinch to not get killed by trapinch. Once these are removed, there is little stopping the onslaught of flying types.
In addition to supporting flying types, trapinch is also able to support cutiefly and sun, by trapping munchlax and ferroseed, 2 of the only reliable cutiefly answers. Trapinch finds itself being able to support offensive mons in almost every matchup and if it can't trap anything on the opposing team, it seems unlikely that the other team would have any answers to cutiefly, sun abusers, or flying types. While a lot of the things that trapinch supports are also potentially banworthy further down the line (sun, cutiefly, maybe even vullaby/corphish), I think it is pretty clear that trapinch provides a level of support to too many mons without any reasonable counterplay to it.
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Onix has no chance vs giga drain trapinch in this meta. Dragon dance doesn't help since trapinch either kos onix cleanly, or it recovers 40% of its health putting it outside of the range of being ko'ed by onix. If a person has trapinch and you have an onix, onix has no way of avoiding being trapped by trapinch.
I feel like you're underestimating the support that trapinch can provide to a team. Trapinch is able to support sun teams, by trapping ferroseed for oddish. Trapinch is able to support cutiefly, ponyta-g, and wingull by trapping munchlax or ferroseed. Trapinch is able to support vullaby, rufflet, and drifloon by trapping pawniard or onix. Trapinch is able to support farfetchd by trapping spritzee or mareanie. Almost every pokemon mentioned as potentially banworthy is supported by trapinch, and yet, you think trapinch is not the culprit. What are we really trying to preserve by keeping trapinch in the tier? Is banning all threats that benefit from trapinch trapping really reasonable? Banning trapinch minimizes the collateral damage of already reduced size of the SS LC tier.
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The drifloon never went below 50%, so berry juice would not have popped even if he had it. Admittedly, substitute+berry juice drifloon would have avoided dying on that turn, but drifloon still takes significant damage from trapinch after BJ pops.
36+ Atk Trapinch Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Drifloon: 22-28 (88 - 112%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (mixed drifloon)
36+ Atk Trapinch Rock Slide vs. 36 HP / 4 Def Drifloon: 20-24 (76.9 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (special attacking drifloon)
Onix trading hp vs trapinch is not really possible, since onix earthquake is doing 30% to 43% to eviolite trapinch, and trapinch heals back 43% from giga drain. If onix elects to earthquake twice and not get rocks up, the trapinch may not be as successful in trapping another pokemon, but trapinch removed onix and stopped stealth rocks from getting on the field, which many of trapinch's partners in crime would greatly appreciate (cutiefly, vulpix, flying types). In some scenarios, trapinch does not even need to take damage to trap, as it is able to outspeed munchlax and ferroseed, with the appropriate ev spread.
So trapinch is able to trap onix, diglett, pawniard, ferroseed, spritzee, munchlax, and onix, but that doesn't give it enough offensive utility to make it broken to you. What would make it broken in your opinion? Obviously gothita has the advantage of being able to switch into ferroseed and spritzee, but the variety of things that trapinch is able to trap suggests to me that trapinch offers a similar level of offensive support that gothita was able to.
Trapinch has increased ability to get multiple kills, as it gained access to first impression, which is a lot stronger than its previous priority in feint and quick attack. Trapinch forces the use of protect on multiple mons, like ponyta-g, cherubi, diglett, and drilbur. Even if these mons run protect to avoid getting directly trapped by first impression trapinch, these pokemon are limited in their moveset just by trapinch existing in the meta. Perhaps you could argue that is a good thing? But I am not convinced that ponyta running protect instead of calm mind or morning sun or another coverage move is a positive effect on the meta.
The interaction between diglett and trapinch is an interesting one. Both are potentially trapped by each other depending on remaining HP values. Historically, the rise of trapinch usage has caused a relative decrease in diglett usage, which makes trapinch even better, as it has less opportunity to be countertrapped. The concept of countertrapping diglett isn't necessarily one of the driving reasons for my stance on trapinch, but is worth taking into consideration when looking at the impact trapinch has on the meta.
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Onix could run 36 defense evs to bluff eviolite from uturn vullaby anyways if you really wanted to. In gen 8, without fail, trapinch is able to switch in vs onix every time and trap it. There is no secret tech option to have onix beat trapinch other than doubling out when trapinch tries to come in. I don't know why you're having this hypothetical scenario where I'm letting onix set up and I'm not sending in trapinch right away. I guess trapinch doesn't trap pawniard either because I clicked swords dance and you didn't go straight to trapinch, so now trapinch dies if it tries to hard switch in.
As seen by your ekans game today, trapinch isn't that much of a liability to flying types, seeing as it is able to run rock slide, which does a lot of damage to drifloon and other flying types if they can't score the ko on trapinch, which is definitely plausible if trapinch kills an onix or diglett with giga drain.
What sets trapinch apart from diglett is trapinch's bulk and potential recovery with giga drain, which allows trapinch to theoretically get multiple kills in a game. You've admitted that a diglett has done its role after revenge killing one mon in a game, but this is not the case for trapinch, as counter trapping trapinch is more difficult due to its bulk and giga drain recovery. Even if you run protect on diglett to block first impression, the giga drain recovery results in a net damage of 5 from a life orb earthquake.
A sun team has a few potential stops that I mentioned in a previous post. Mareanie is a potential roadblock for cherubi/vulpix. Trapinch can trap mareanie in sun barring a scald burn or iron defense. Oddish is a better abuser of sun than cherubi due to its typing and ability to sleep bulky threats. I didn't say trapinch trapped oddish, perhaps my wording wasn't the best, but I was saying trapinch trapped ferroseed for oddish to sweep, seeing as oddish does not have coverage for ferroseed. And as has been mentioned several other times already, trapinch is able to trap munchlax and pawniard, which are potential nuisances to sun teams.
My stance on the current LC tier is that there is a group of pokemon that all benefit from the support provided by trapinch. I don't believe that cutiefly or vulpix are more broken than trapinch. If banning trapinch shifts the meta into a state of balance without any other bans, that seems more preferable to me than banning everything that trapinch supports.
For clarity's sake I condensed the last page of your arguments down to actually relevant information. I omitted things referencing how the SM LC was, what techs rose from that previous metagame, how Trapinch was handled in the past, as well as asides that weren't directly referencing what I wanted to respond to (I.E, your posts about Sun and other archetypes or problematic Pokemon). I specifically, and exclusively, wanted to address the current discussion on Trapinch.
I have bolded the most prevalent aspects of your above posts to clarify to the spectators and viewers of the thread what I have determined to be the underlying threads behind the argument you have crafted. In outlining these posts the conclusion I have come to with regard to your premises are as follows:
1. Trapinch will always be able to trap at least 1 Pokemon when facing a well-crafted team.
- That is, a team that has nothing Trapinch can trap is most likely already weak to popular archetypes, making Trapinch's existence as a supporter moot in that scenario.
2. The things that Trapinch can trap are not solely limited to one specific pattern.
- Trapinch's ability to trap bulky threats, stealth rock setters, and pick off weakened threats with First Impression means that it takes advantage of multiple build styles.
3. (An implied premise) Tech that has the ability to beat Trapinch can be considered gimmicky or limiting and is a reflection of Trapinch's "unhealthiness."
4. As Trapinch is able to trap a variety of Pokemon from differing build styles it is comparable to Gothita and is unhealthy.
5. As there are already a limited number of Pokemon due to Dexit banning Trapinch would be detrimental to the strength of the metagame's other threats that are currently contested, resulting in lower "collatoral."
In the next few paragraphs I will break down my interpretations and rebuttals to these premises. There are some that are true and some that are not. In analyzing the function of Trapinch it provides a means to an end; that is, Trapinch is first and foremost a support Pokemon which helps boosts its teammates capabilities. In function it is no different than attempting to overload a check. It is
never a guaranteed removal due to the ever flowing state of a real time game. Yes, in a vacuous environment, Trapinch can indeed eliminate Pawniard, Ferroseed, Ponyta, Onix, Munchlax, Spritzee, and Mareanie, and more, allowing its teammates to sweep. Your first premise is
true. Trapinch will most likely always be able to trap something in a game if the team is well-crafted. This is more of a statement about the current metagame though than a point in Trapinch's favor. One example I can illustrate is a separate trapper, Wynaut, who also will always be able to trap at least 1 Pokemon on the enemy team and neutralize it. However these Pokemon are both easy to take advantage of or are worn down by the Pokemon that it wishes to trap. Trapinch will, unless the opponent player misplays, take extensive damage in attempting to eliminate some threat. Ferroseed has the opportunity to run Knock Off, Giga Drain, Bullet Seed, or set up Spikes in response, thereby either wearing Trapinch down or setting up a Hazard to help wear down the enemy team. Mareanie has the opportunity to outright beat it with Iron Defense, to Scald burn it, or otherwise deal 50-60% of health. It can also set up hazards. Munchlax can curse and then recycle spam through Superpower or EQ, eventually outright beating the Trapinch. Onix can set up SR, explode, Dragon Dance and beat a slightly weaker (50-60%) Trapinch. Pawniard can flinch it or set up Stealth Rock (this is by far Trapinch's best trapped enemy, barring Diglett). Diglett has the potential to Memento or Final Gambit, or set up Stealth Rock in response. Assuming perfect play there is not really a scenario that can be described where the non-Trapinch player (from here out referenced as 'Player A') cannot gain some good from that turn, be it in chip damage for Trapinch or through setting up a hazard. This ties into your second premise, which is also
true. Outside of clearing the way for certain Pokemon, there is no consistent pattern to the things that Trapinch checks. You claim this variability is unhealthy and liken it to Gothita.
Your third premise, however, is entirely
untrue. You claim, implicitly, that Trapinch's ability is having an undue warping affect on the metagame, forcing Pokemon like Ponyta or Cherubi to run Protect, and similarly things like Onix to run Self-destruct. Why do you think this is a problem? Is Protect a terrible move that is in itself a reflection of centralization? If that move allows those Pokemon to beat out something that would normally beat it, why is that not considered metagame innovation and adaptation? Is it gimmicky if Mareanie runs Iron Defense to beat Diglett or Trapinch? What makes Ponyta running Calm Mind "healthier" than running Protect, as laid out in paragraph 8 of my above quoted text block. I for one think that such tech and slots are a healthy form of variability. One can run Calm Mind and attempt to play around eliminating Trapinch, such as by luring it in through other Pokemon like Pawniard and having something like a Corphish in the back. One can alternatively forgo Calm Mind or Morning Sun and run Protect so you can beat weakened Trapinch. I don't see why this is an issue at all, as Protect has historically been used on many occasions in my past Pokemon career, notably things like Protect Diglett to scout for Fake Outs or block HJKs or to scout Scarf sets.
Your fourth premise I think is also
untrue. Its comparison to Gothita lies in the variability that it has to beat various Pokemon. However Gothita was much deeper than Trapinch is. Gothita had the potential to run Charm sets, Calm Mind sets, Scarf sets, and more, with the ability to tailor its moveset with moves like Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, Psyshock, Charm, Tickle, Calm Mind, Resttalk sets, Shadow Ball, Trick. Gothita also had the ability to run fast or slow, meaning you often had no idea what it could actually trap and how to play around it from preview, as you could only guess as to what the set was. Trapinch, in contrast, is a much more one-dimensional Pokemon. It will always have Earthquake. It will always be between 6-9 Spe. It will always have First Impression, and most likely Giga Drain. The variability that comes from it comes in the form of Crunch / Rock Slide to hit birds, or Superpower to hit Ferroseed. I guess you could put Feint / Quick Attack up there too. It always does the same thing, albeit it traps a certain subsect of Pokemon. This means that when I see a Trapinch from preview, I know exactly how I should play around it; I'm already thinking ahead and seeing what I can throw at Trapinch to ensure a sweep of my own. I sacrifice my Onix so I can bring in my Corphish and get free Sword Dances. I look and see what does and doesn't threaten Trapinch. You can't do this with Gothita, because it could either succeed or fail at trapping your Spritzee, depending on the set. It could trap your Timburr, or it could not. It could beat out Corphish / Onix or it's locked into Thunderbolt and loses. The variability of the Pokemon sets both can trap are similar in that regard, but in terms of set variability they are dichotic.
I think by the nature of Arena Trap in general your 5th premise is
true. I do think that concerns over a limited pool of Pokemon to select from are entirely overblown. Arena Trap, through its supporting nature, will always have a detrimental impact on the Pokemon it supports, hindering their ability to sweep. Where I disagree however is on that this is a necessary element that we should keep in mind. By its very nature Trapping abilities force you to think differently than a metagame without trapping abilities. I have since changed my stance on how one should approach this, however. There are definitive tradeoffs for trapping something. Frankly, if you let Trapinch trap something for free and it gets multiple kills a game and is the star player, then you simply played poorly or had a shite team. A well-built team can consistently have Pokemon that are trapped by Trapinch but in an actual match will wear the Trapinch down and allow 1 kill at max; and that is entirely the point. To serve as bait for something to take advantage of a reliance on Trapinch.
I strongly urge players to think outside of the box. Come up with solutions to Sun, or Trapinch, or Webs that are different from the safe space people have boxed themselves into when building a team. These things only exist as blatantly overpowered on paper, when in discussion in a metagame post. The counterplay is there, if only you would seek it. As it is LC Snake time I and many others are most likely keeping their techs hidden for use when they play, otherwise I'm sure there would be more transparency in terms of unsets and tech to use. The parting advice is to think critically and systematically in your thought process. I, for one, consider a metagame where when you start banning these things that creates a rippling domino effect to be wholly unwise as it assumes stupidity and lack of preparedness from the player. I also think criticisms of past tech like Z Onix or Liquidation Tirtouga as elements in favor of Trapinch's ban to be absurd, as the Pokemon are meant to have only one or two sets and meta development is only permissible prior a certain point.
