I meant in terms of like what the OM is physically doing. I've already gone over the implications of what making everyone level 1 does for the meta. I was just explaining why they shouldn't be worried about it being a Pet Mod.
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Project Metagame Workshop (OM Submissions CLOSED)
- Thread starter drampa's grandpa
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Ok, sorry for the misunderstanding. Are there any other issues you have with this idea? I know its not my idea so this seems weird for me to care so much, I'm just really interested in this one.
I guess maybe start without any bans? Mon bans, that is. Moves like Dragon Rage and Sonic Boom obviously need to be banned. But since stats are so wonky in this meta, it's hard to tell without playtesting if something that was busted strong in OU will still be busted strong or just be a little bit above average.
I feel like Huge Power is something to consider ban worthy, as double attack without drawbacks is even more insane from what I remember. Also yeah definitely Sonic Boom and Dragon Rage.
Basically think how stall is capable of making battles last 100 turns and give them a Max Revive every 14 turns. Yeah. No. Me and my brother gentleman'd out the Wonder Launcher whenever we were playing on cart because battles took forever, and that was with in game teams.
All Gen8 OMs are based in Sword and Shield (with the exception of Pure Hackmons, due to very extenuating circumstances). Basing an OM in NatDex is a non-starter.
Banning types universally is also a no-go. You ban the abusers, not the type. Surely Gible isn't broken in this meta, but this ban would knock it out too. If you think Garchomp is broken, just ban Garchomp, not its typing.
Additionally, metagames that restrict options instead of expanding them, like this one, tend to not be very popular. Good OMs promote creativity and open up new strategies and playstyles; this would be a very restrictive metagame and I personally have a hard time seeing it be successful.
You did do a good job of thinking through potential threats and what might be good in the metagame; if you have another metagame idea, that level of detail is great! I just don't see this one being successful, sorry.
So heres my metagame idea
Weakmons
Metagame Premise:
The idea of this metagame is that it only has Pokemon with 4x weaknesses.
It is based off of National Dex OU so you wont have trouble with trying to find Pokemon to use.
Bans:
Any Pokemon not 4x weak to an attack is banned. (obviously)
Dragon ground and dragon flying type Pokemon are already good on their own and will make Pokemon like Abomasnow and Weavile get more pressure in the tier so dragon ground and dragon flying Pokemon are banned.
Megas are allowed but if they change your type to not be 4x weak to something (ex. Aggron changing from rock steel to just steel when it becomes mega, losing its 4x ground weakness) then its banned.
Mega Charizard-Y would be extremely op in this tier because it gets both grass and fire attacks, which many Pokemon are 4x weak to so its banned.
National Dex OU bans apply.
Potential threats:
Heatran is Scizor's number one counter so its obviously going to be really good in the tier. What it also does is get rid of the much needed ice types in the tier, making choice scarf Heatran extremely good. (might go to banlist)
Weavile is already really good in OU, but it gets extremely better in this tier. Its the best ice type in the tier which is needed because of the many Pokemon in the tier 4x weak to ice.
Scizor like Weavile is also already good in OU, and gets better in this tier. Its only weakness is fire, and with the only Pokemon that are fire type in the tier being out classed by rock ground types, its really good in combination with Rhyperior.
Rhyperior is the main fire type destroyer in this tier due to all of them being 4x weak to its STAB combo. It could switch into other Pokemons ground type attacks in order to activate weakness policy and do massive damage.
Heracross is one of the only fighting types in the tier making it useful against threats like Weavile and Tyranitar. Plus its mega has the highest attack stat in the tier so thats a plus.
Kartana is yet another Pokemon that can pose a threat to the tier thats 4x weak to fire showing that Heatran is needed on teams. Kartana does what it usually does in OU being a really good choice scarf user.
Tyranitar is alot like Kartana by just being good to use in this tier and OU.
Appletun is very bulky and it gets thick fat letting it counter its 4x weakness. Its this tiers good bulky stall Pokemon with utility.
Quagsire will again do Quagsire things like it usually does in OU so theres no need to talk more about it.
If you have any suggestions please ask me.
Weakmons
Metagame Premise:
The idea of this metagame is that it only has Pokemon with 4x weaknesses.
It is based off of National Dex OU so you wont have trouble with trying to find Pokemon to use.
Bans:
Any Pokemon not 4x weak to an attack is banned. (obviously)
Dragon ground and dragon flying type Pokemon are already good on their own and will make Pokemon like Abomasnow and Weavile get more pressure in the tier so dragon ground and dragon flying Pokemon are banned.
Megas are allowed but if they change your type to not be 4x weak to something (ex. Aggron changing from rock steel to just steel when it becomes mega, losing its 4x ground weakness) then its banned.
Mega Charizard-Y would be extremely op in this tier because it gets both grass and fire attacks, which many Pokemon are 4x weak to so its banned.
National Dex OU bans apply.
Potential threats:
Heatran is Scizor's number one counter so its obviously going to be really good in the tier. What it also does is get rid of the much needed ice types in the tier, making choice scarf Heatran extremely good. (might go to banlist)
Weavile is already really good in OU, but it gets extremely better in this tier. Its the best ice type in the tier which is needed because of the many Pokemon in the tier 4x weak to ice.
Scizor like Weavile is also already good in OU, and gets better in this tier. Its only weakness is fire, and with the only Pokemon that are fire type in the tier being out classed by rock ground types, its really good in combination with Rhyperior.
Rhyperior is the main fire type destroyer in this tier due to all of them being 4x weak to its STAB combo. It could switch into other Pokemons ground type attacks in order to activate weakness policy and do massive damage.
Heracross is one of the only fighting types in the tier making it useful against threats like Weavile and Tyranitar. Plus its mega has the highest attack stat in the tier so thats a plus.
Kartana is yet another Pokemon that can pose a threat to the tier thats 4x weak to fire showing that Heatran is needed on teams. Kartana does what it usually does in OU being a really good choice scarf user.
Tyranitar is alot like Kartana by just being good to use in this tier and OU.
Appletun is very bulky and it gets thick fat letting it counter its 4x weakness. Its this tiers good bulky stall Pokemon with utility.
Quagsire will again do Quagsire things like it usually does in OU so theres no need to talk more about it.
If you have any suggestions please ask me.
That’s a really arbitrary way of deciding what mons are legal. It’s removing most mons while not providing the ones left with any new tools.
I don’t think making it natdex will make it any better. If your metagame leaves so many mons illegal that it requires natdex, then you might need to work on the premise.
Concept: "Big Split Movesets"
Every Pokémon has 12 moves: 4 Physical, 4 Special, 4 Status.
This idea stemmed from the curiosity of wondering how the meta would have evolved if Pokémon had a more expansive form of combat. There are some caveats I would like to go over.
Hyper-Offensive Metagame
Offensive Pokemon would likely benefit from the added supportive moves, but not from the secondary form of attacking, granted that's not guaranteed. It all depends if a Pokemon is a good mixed attacker, and many mixed attackers tend to get as not as much action as dedicated physical and special attackers, so I would like to see how all three forms of attackers would interact in this metagame.
Support Pokemon are "Useless"
I've noticed that support Pokemon are very vulnerable to Taunt, so I suppose this would assist in not leaving support Pokemon completely crippled. Also, many support Pokemon are crippled by having to carry at least 1 attacking move to prevent taunt forcing them to struggle, and 2 if the opponent uses Taunt & Torment.
[Also, if you could offer Singles and Doubles versions of it, that would also be appreciated because I would like to see the statistical value in that too.]
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Concept: "No Abilities"
This idea stemmed from the curiosity of wondering how the meta would have evolved if Pokémon never had abilities. Sure, we have Gen 1 and Gen 2, but those games are too limited in their options compared to their updated successors. More moves, more items, more monsters, etc. I want this metagame to exist for two sole reasons: Abilities in Pokemon are one of the most chaotic features in Pokemon, in that their existence can make or break a Pokemon. I would want to find how a Pokemon would perform if the curveball known as abilities weren't existent. They would have to perform on their own merits through stats, typing, and move pool.
The second reason is just for pure statistical value. I want to know who can top the charts, and then compare it to regular metagames and see how much they rise and fall. I'm a nerd.
[This one is a pipe dream, but if you could offer singles and doubles versions of it (not to mention a Singles/Doubles version to every metagame you have), that would also be appreciated because I would like to see the statistical value in that too.]
This idea stemmed from the curiosity of wondering how the meta would have evolved if Pokémon never had abilities. Sure, we have Gen 1 and Gen 2, but those games are too limited in their options compared to their updated successors. More moves, more items, more monsters, etc. I want this metagame to exist for two sole reasons: Abilities in Pokemon are one of the most chaotic features in Pokemon, in that their existence can make or break a Pokemon. I would want to find how a Pokemon would perform if the curveball known as abilities weren't existent. They would have to perform on their own merits through stats, typing, and move pool.
The second reason is just for pure statistical value. I want to know who can top the charts, and then compare it to regular metagames and see how much they rise and fall. I'm a nerd.
[This one is a pipe dream, but if you could offer singles and doubles versions of it (not to mention a Singles/Doubles version to every metagame you have), that would also be appreciated because I would like to see the statistical value in that too.]
A meta like this is already in submissions, but thanks for the proposal!
People suggest so many "you can only use Pokémon that meet X criteria" metas that I wonder if there should be a section for teambuilding challenges.
Also, I feel like Regigigas should be quickbanned from No Abilities.
Also, I feel like Regigigas should be quickbanned from No Abilities.
To be fair, have you seen its movepool lately? There's a reason it's allowed in Trademarked lol. It's probably broken given its bottomless coverage, but it has an awful STAB and no way of using its bulk to setup outside Rock Polish. I feel like most metagames where it gets banned are down to giving it a positive Ability that either gives it a better STAB or turns it into a wallbreaker that doesn't need to boost. I think it would be worth testing.
Meta Idea: Worst of the Worst
Metagame premise: The only mons allowed are those in the lowest tier for every generation they've been in. (NU for 1-4, PU for 5, Untiered for 6-8. ZUBL mons would still be allowed) Here's a list: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nHrsQ8p7CYMZt-1KBCoS4d4Io9MfGHqm06IsN8ZKKmw/edit?usp=sharing
Potential bans and threats: Greedent has high HP, Attack, Defense, and Cheek Pouch + Belly Drum could give him max attack with no drawbacks.
Turtonator has been banned from ZU every generation since introduction, so it will probably get banned here too.
Pincurchin could set electric surge, which is really beneficial of all the electric types in the tier, especially due to the lack of ground types.
Seaking has a great move pool and ability in Lightning Rod, making it one of the few immunities to electric.
Purrserker is one of the few Steel types in the meta, and it's objectively the best one with it's high attack stat and decent move pool.
Luxray is easily the best electric type in the tier, with a high attack stat and decent coverage.
Questions for the community: Which NFE's should be banned? I haven't really considered them, but some of them would probably be better than these trash Pokemon.
Metagame premise: The only mons allowed are those in the lowest tier for every generation they've been in. (NU for 1-4, PU for 5, Untiered for 6-8. ZUBL mons would still be allowed) Here's a list: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nHrsQ8p7CYMZt-1KBCoS4d4Io9MfGHqm06IsN8ZKKmw/edit?usp=sharing
Potential bans and threats: Greedent has high HP, Attack, Defense, and Cheek Pouch + Belly Drum could give him max attack with no drawbacks.
Turtonator has been banned from ZU every generation since introduction, so it will probably get banned here too.
Pincurchin could set electric surge, which is really beneficial of all the electric types in the tier, especially due to the lack of ground types.
Seaking has a great move pool and ability in Lightning Rod, making it one of the few immunities to electric.
Purrserker is one of the few Steel types in the meta, and it's objectively the best one with it's high attack stat and decent move pool.
Luxray is easily the best electric type in the tier, with a high attack stat and decent coverage.
Questions for the community: Which NFE's should be banned? I haven't really considered them, but some of them would probably be better than these trash Pokemon.
Been a while, been busy. Me and WMAR did do some team testing. If we limit it to mons that you can get at level 1, then I think Huge Power is fine honestly. The only users are Bunnelby and Marill, who although good, have their faults that keep them from being insane. If we do allow any Pokemon that can be obtained, regardless of level, then we have an issue. Diggersby has 14 attack stab EQ, Return, and Quick Attack. Even resistances won't like that. Same goes for Medicham if this becomes a National Dex format.
We did our testing only with mons that could be obtained at level 1 (we played in OU), and one thing I definitely think is a problem is Unburden. Namely, Slurpuff and Hawlucha. Berry Juice sets on these mons are insanely good, I'd say they practically make Unaware or phasing mandatory on teams, but once again there is limited testing. I think they could be banned worthy, but I don't think 2 people just trying out different mons for a week gives much room for counterplay to develop. There's probably answers we haven't though of yet.
One final mon that could be an issue is Chansey. We didn't get around to testing it yet, but imagine Chansey with good physical defense and offenses. That is a horrifying thought. Even after a Knock-Off that sounds rough.
I personally would want this to be a Nat Dex format where Pokemon that you need a higher level for can still be used, but I think we need to keep an eye on Diggersby, Medicham, and Unburden Mons in that case. I feel like the mon diversity here is good since there are so many potentially viable LC mons, but I feel like more mons and moves can only benefit the meta. If the mods have a problem with this, then yeah we can just use only mons and moves available at level 1, that's still plenty of fun.
I think that's about it for my thoughts on mons or abilities that could be banned worthy. Now onto some of the sets that I used.
Arcanine @ Berry Juice
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 1
EVs: 196 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD
Hardy Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Close Combat
- Wild Charge
- Flare Blitz
I think Arcanine is a top threat here. It's lowest stat is 7 and has a whooping 8 attack. Intimate + Fire typing is good as stab Flare Blitz will dent or kill most mons, and the Intimidate makes it harder for mons like Hawlucha, Scizor, or even Marill to do their thing. Depending on team, I believe Roar can be used over CC for phasing out Slurpuff or Lucha. I'd imagine other Items like Life Orb are great, but I mainly used Berry Juice since it gives me a lot of flexibility with how I use it. Wall Breaker, offensive pivot, check to other tops threats. It does a lot with this set, but if you want a nuke of a wall breaker then I definitely think Life Orb can work wonders.
Marill @ Life Orb
Ability: Huge Power
Level: 1
EVs: 116 HP / 116 Atk
- Aqua Jet
- Ice Punch
- Knock Off
- Play Rough
I think Marill is a healthy top tier, and I find that amazing. Eviolite sets are obviously a nice bulky Water/Fairy that hits hard (albeit gets ruined by Knock), but I like the Life Orb set. It is the strongest un-boosted mon as far as I'm aware, and stab Play Rough, priority, and strong coverage and other options for Water Stab gives it a potent moveset. This is balanced by its speed of 6 and awful 13/6/6 bulk, making it hard to switch in and use effectively. If you get it in and play well, its insanely good. But this is going to be inconsistent I think. One of the best mons, but unlike stronger Huge Power mons if we allow those, it does have game breaking levels of power.
Froslass @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Cursed Body
Level: 1
EVs: 116 HP / 36 Atk / 116 Def / 36 SpA / 196 Spe
- Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball
- Ice Shard
- Thunderbolt
This mon I don't think is a top threat, but it's still very good and I like it. Froslass is a mon with decent coverage, priority, and 7/7/8 offenses and speed. Any mon with Base 103-153 speed ties for fastest in the tier, and this is great for Froslass. It has a good matchup against a lot of this other 8 speed pokemon (immune to Tauros Stab, Aero doesn't want to take an Ice Beam or Ice Shard, etc). This of course also means it outspeeds every scarfer that isn't 8, and this is further by its access to Ice Shard giving it some of the fastest priority in the tier. I think Life Orb could be good, but I prefer Scarf here. It's speed makes it a great revenge killer or cleaner. Its obviously not perfect though. It's typing leaves it heavily vulnerable to multiple types and Stealth Rocks (I think Rocks will be more rare in this tier, but still a thing that exists). Also, while 7 in both attacking stats is good, most mons with those stats rely on strong moves or abilities to hit hard, such as the previously mentioned Tauros. This is something Froslass doesn't have, and it feels weak as a result. Still a solid mon though, and Life Orb remedies some of this issues at the cost of less speed.
Tauros @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Level: 1
EVs: 76 HP / 116 SpD / 196 Spe
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Flamethrower
-Iron Head
Also a part of the 8 speed club, this is the last mon I want to talk about for now. Less special attack than Froslass, but Sheer Force Orb makes up for it. Great coverage, great speed, and lots of raw power. I think if we were to make a viability ranking, this would be an A tier threat. It has a lot going for it as a potent offense threat. Depending on team, use whatever moves you want other than Body Slam which I view as mandatory. You will need something for mons like Scizor, Arcanine, Melmetal, and other such mons. I personally used Iron Head for the last slot to guarantee the KO on Clefable so I can avoid activating Berry Juice.
So yeah, that's just some basic on some sets I used during testing and some more thoughts on ruleset ideas. Sorry if this is a bit long, I just wanted to explain a few strong threats and kinda went overboard I think.
Nat Dex is off the table. OMs are based on what the games would be like with a single, objective change. For example, "Pokemon can learn every move of their type", "losing is winning", or in this case, "every mon is level 1". While problematic things can be banned just like in vanilla, the central mechanic remains unchanged (all Normal-types can still learn Extreme Speed in STAB-mons, you're just not allowed to use it on non-native users). This is part of what led Shared Power to be shut down last gen. Problematic abilities were addressed by changing the central mechanic. Instead of being "all Pokemon simultaneously have all the abilities on their team" the mechanic became "all Pokemon simultaneously have all the abilities on their team except Mold Breaker, Tough Claws, Unburden (I don't remember which specific abilities were mod banned but you get the idea)".
Nat Dex is a festering dump heap of subjectivity pretending to be objective. Using it would immediately and automatically make this meta a Pet Mod and not an OM. Unless the pinned announcement at the top of the forum turns out to be legit and not an April Fool joke, which I really hope is not the case.
Seriously, allowing Pokemon that aren't usually available at level 1 is totally fine. OMs don't need to be perfectly replicable in vanilla. That's part of what makes OMs exciting.
My dad works at Smogon as the CEO and has stated it’s real and says he aquired the Pokemon series to make National Dex canon.
But unironically, I think the same idea would be better if instead all Pokemon were set to Level 1,000 (without teambuilder), but that would still be kind of bland imo. Changing the levels Pokemon would definitely change the meta, but not as significantly as some would think. Like if LC was done at Level 100, it would change things like Speed Tiers and moves deal slightly less damage, but the Metagame is mostly the same.
Yeah I agree, especially with that last bit. We need to fully decide on a ruleset, although communication has been a bit slow between me and WMAR. Hopefully that clears up soon.
Metagame premise: A modification to Eviolite intended to make more NFE's viable in standard play:
When I posted about this on Reddit a while ago I just got a bunch of "this ain't it chief" type responses. The internet just sucks sometimes. But hopefully people will be more receptive here. Not sure if it's sufficiently interesting for an OM though?
Also something that holds me back when it comes to OMs is that I'm primarily a doubles player, and with ideas such as these I would enjoy them more in a doubles format (specifically VGC rules). There might also be more viable NFE's in doubles as support roles.
- If a Pokemon can evolve twice, it not only gets the standard Def & SpDef boost, but also a Speed boost.
- Any NFE holding an Eviolite will simultaneously have access to all of its possible Abilities at once. If you give a Pokemon its hidden ability, it will gain access to its regular abilities on top of its hidden ability. If you give a Pokemon one of its standard abilities, it gains access to its other standard ability, but not its hidden ability.
When I posted about this on Reddit a while ago I just got a bunch of "this ain't it chief" type responses. The internet just sucks sometimes. But hopefully people will be more receptive here. Not sure if it's sufficiently interesting for an OM though?
Also something that holds me back when it comes to OMs is that I'm primarily a doubles player, and with ideas such as these I would enjoy them more in a doubles format (specifically VGC rules). There might also be more viable NFE's in doubles as support roles.
Yeah so ummm, this idea is rather... inelegant. The core idea of "buff Pokemon proportional to the number of times it can evolve" has potential, but the way you've gone about it (tying it to an item and tacking on several unrelated and aimless buffs, with extra stipulations that don't actually add anything like the whole hidden ability thing) is needlessly convoluted.
The best OMs can be fully explained in just one simple sentence.
The hidden ability thing is just an explanation of edge-case behaviour. It wouldn't be included in the description of the OM, and I could have easily omitted it and it would have made no difference.
Anyways the idea wasn't necessarily intended to be an alternate metagame in the first place, it's just a fairly straightforward modification to an item's behaviour intended to make more NFE's viable. Basically something I personally would like to see in standard play, if that were somehow possible.
Having it tied to an item gives it a clear drawback. So NFE's can't use items, but have access to multiple abilities (which is intended to mirror how children are 'multipotentialites') whereas fully evolved mons can use items but have to choose an ability.
Garrett
Banned deucer.
Metagame premise: Field Antics - Moves (no abilities) which create temporary field effects now have an additional, worthwhile effect while present.
Clarificatory Elements:
1.) Does it sound interesting to give very strong bonus effects to temporary field effect moves as abilities? Is there something similar which seems more enjoyable?
2.) Should the stipulation of it being from a move be removed? That is, should auto-weather abilities be allowed to grant the bonus effect?
Clarificatory Elements:
- Abilities which set up temporary field effects do not induce the bonus effect (for example, Tyranitar's Sand Stream vs. the move Sandstorm; the point is to promote use of less-viable moves). This ranges from the common and competitive Reflect and Light Screen, to the gimmicky Tailwind and Trick Room, to the unheard of Water Sport.
- The effect I want to be an additional ability, but stat boosts I suppose are on the table (albeit, nowhere near as interesting). This ability ends once the field effect which instantiated it is over (this promotes Defog and Court Change management to shut it down earlier).
- Light Clay - Feel like it could be self-resolved just by making the most broken field effects (i.e. Aurora Veil) have weaker bonus effects.
- Court Change/Cinderace - Flipping everything to other sides seems broken and difficult to have a meta around.
- Prankster - Obvious reasons.
1.) Does it sound interesting to give very strong bonus effects to temporary field effect moves as abilities? Is there something similar which seems more enjoyable?
2.) Should the stipulation of it being from a move be removed? That is, should auto-weather abilities be allowed to grant the bonus effect?
Not something I usually say, but this sounds like a petmod.
yeah sounds exactly like a pet mod. Changing moves to to add what I can only assume will be non-standard bonuses. Also you didnt give an example of what the changes could be, so its hard to discuss
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