Metagame Workshop

"Clockwork" sounds great and each pokemon having a different cycle based on their position will be interesting.
I realized that the 3x forward and 3x backward rotations would end up in the same place: S.Atk/S.Def/Spe/HP/Atk/Def.
To make sure all 6 Pokémon had different Stat positions, 1 of them would have to remain in the default. Either position 1:
1. HP/Atk/Def/S.Atk/S.Def/Spe = 0 rotations
2. Spe/HP/Atk/Def/S.Atk/S.Def = 1 rotation
3. S.Def/Spe/HP/Atk/Def/S.Atk = 2 rotations
4. S.Atk/S.Def/Spe/HP/Atk/Def = 3 rotations
5. Def/S.Atk/S.Def/Spe/HP/Atk = 4 rotations
6. Atk/Def/S.Atk/S.Def/Spe/HP = 5 rotations

or position 6:
1. Spe/HP/Atk/Def/S.Atk/S.Def = 1 rotation
2. S.Def/Spe/HP/Atk/Def/S.Atk = 2 rotations
3. S.Atk/S.Def/Spe/HP/Atk/Def = 3 rotations
4. Def/S.Atk/S.Def/Spe/HP/Atk = 4 rotations
5. Atk/Def/S.Atk/S.Def/Spe/HP = 5 rotations
6. HP/Atk/Def/S.Atk/S.Def/Spe = 6 rotations
 
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GΔCT

once upon a time won't last forever
I realized that the 3x forward and 3x backward rotations would end up in the same place: S.Atk/S.Def/Spe/HP/Atk/Def.
To make sure all 6 Pokémon had different Stat positions, 1 of them would have to remain in the default. Either position 1:
1. HP/Atk/Def/S.Atk/S.Def/Spe = 0 rotations
2. Spe/HP/Atk/Def/S.Atk/S.Def = 1 rotation
3. S.Def/Spe/HP/Atk/Def/S.Atk = 2 rotations
4. S.Atk/S.Def/Spe/HP/Atk/Def = 3 rotations
5. Def/S.Atk/S.Def/Spe/HP/Atk = 4 rotations
6. Atk/Def/S.Atk/S.Def/Spe/HP = 5 rotations

or position 6:
1. Spe/HP/Atk/Def/S.Atk/S.Def = 1 rotation
2. S.Def/Spe/HP/Atk/Def/S.Atk = 2 rotations
3. S.Atk/S.Def/Spe/HP/Atk/Def = 3 rotations
4. Def/S.Atk/S.Def/Spe/HP/Atk = 4 rotations
5. Atk/Def/S.Atk/S.Def/Spe/HP = 5 rotations
6. HP/Atk/Def/S.Atk/S.Def/Spe = 6 rotations

Some set ideas:

Crobat @ Black Sludge
Inner Focus
252 HP, 252 Def, 4 S.Def
Impish Nature
- Toxic
- Leech Life
- Roost
- Super Fang

130/85/90/80/70/80
Honestly, having to think about a different stat rotation for each position seems incredibly overwhelming to teambuild for and would probably end up with a pretty degenerate meta. I agree with gmfc's idea that it should be a singular rotation either way, with shiny vs. normal determining which direction it rotates. That makes it easy to understand which rotation your opponents are doing without having to constantly glance at team preview and it also makes it a lot easier to build for.

While this lowers the potential diversity, there are still two possible rotations for every pokemon, and that enables many new and interesting sets. Here are some I've been toying with:

Espeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Wish
- Psyshock
- Protect

When you rotate Espeon forward, you get the statline 110/65/65/60/130/95. For a Magic Bounce mon with Wish support, having that much special bulk and HP is actually kind of insane- 424 HP means you're giving 212 HP Wishes to teammates while also sending back rocks and status like Toxic and Will-o-Wisp. While you are indeed pretty passive here, 394 Special Defense is nothing to scoff at, so you can actually wall stuff too. Defense actually increases by 5 points too, which, while negligible, is a nice thing nonetheless. 95 base speed puts it where base Xatu is.

Slowbro-Mega @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aqua Tail
- Earthquake
- Zen Headbutt
- Drain Punch

Rotating backwards for MegaBro gives us 75/180/130/80/30/95. A strong physical attacker with no special defense and a mediocre speed tier. But 180 attack puts it where base Kartana is...which is really nice. It gets respectably strong albeit unreliable physical STABs as well as eq and some neat options like Facade, Drain Punch, Ice Punch and the admittedly memey Focus Punch. Seems fun!

Araquanid @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Giga Drain

Hot damn I wish this thing had U-Turn. Rotating forward gives us 42/68/70/92/50/132, which seems just about perfect for a more offensive web setter (albeit much slower) than Shuckle. Water Bubble means Scald does a hefty chunk, and the rest of the moves are for coverage options, although I could see a sash set that has more defensive utility being more popular.

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Defog
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

Rotating forward gives us 91/89/145/90/105/80 which is really good as a physical wall, especially when considering Intimidate. It should come as no surprise that the best OU mon has utility here too.

Medicham-Mega @ Medichamite
Ability: Pure Power
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Punch
- High Jump Kick
- Fake Out
- Zen Headbutt

Medicham gets 60/75/60/75/80/60 if you rotate backwards.

I'm not sure how Mega stones would work; would they add the existing bonuses onto the new statline? If so, that makes a 115 attack Pure Power mon, and that's strong as heck. If it rotates the Mega's statline from teambuilder, it'd be a much bulkier version of mega medicham, running 100/85/80/85/100/60. In that case, I'd run this set:

Medicham-Mega @ Medichamite
Ability: Pure Power
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Zen Headbutt

Still strong when considering Pure Power. Speaking of these power-doubling abilities, Mega Mawile is in much the same place, and would have to be paid the same considerations of how the mega's statline is treated. Azumarill also gets a huge glow up from rotating forward, plopping its' 100 HP into Attack. This would be something worth thinking about as a potential ban.

Snorlax @ Choice Specs
Ability: Thick Fat
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Hyper Voice
- Thunderbolt
- Surf

Rotating backwards gives us 110/65/65/110/30/160 which seems respectable for a fast Specs sweeper. Snorlax has the movepool to do it, carrying BoltBeam and a 90 BP STAB. Surf can obviously be replaced with things like Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, Psychic and even the odd HP Grass as need be.

Cool meta idea, but I strongly discourage having more than two rotation options. I don't think it would be a lot of fun to teambuild for or to play, honestly.
 

fanyfan

i once put 42 mcdonalds chicken nuggets in my anus
Clearly there’s not gonna be any new oms til gen 8 but I wanted to gauge interest for an idea I quite like for potentially submitting it next gen

Metagame premise: You can only use status moves.

Potential bans and threats:
bans:
- taunt obviously
- nature power would violate the idea of the meta. Metronome probably falls under this too

threats:
- hazards and status would be extremely good
- mons that are immune to different statuses/hazards. Skarmory for example is immune to toxic and spikes, Heatran is immune to will-o-wisp and toxic, etc.
- Salazzle can toxic everything
- ghost types using curse could be cool combined with trapping to kill everything in 5 turns. Alternatively, perish trapping could be good too

Questions for the community:
- would you be interested in playing such a metagame?
- is there anything immediately banworthy I missed?
- what would be a good name? I was thinking statusmons but that sounds kinda generic to me idk.
 
Clearly there’s not gonna be any new oms til gen 8 but I wanted to gauge interest for an idea I quite like for potentially submitting it next gen

Metagame premise: You can only use status moves.

Potential bans and threats:
bans:
- taunt obviously
- nature power would violate the idea of the meta. Metronome probably falls under this too

threats:
- hazards and status would be extremely good
- mons that are immune to different statuses/hazards. Skarmory for example is immune to toxic and spikes, Heatran is immune to will-o-wisp and toxic, etc.
- Salazzle can toxic everything
- ghost types using curse could be cool combined with trapping to kill everything in 5 turns. Alternatively, perish trapping could be good too

Questions for the community:
- would you be interested in playing such a metagame?
- is there anything immediately banworthy I missed?
- what would be a good name? I was thinking statusmons but that sounds kinda generic to me idk.
Man I'm highkey planning to submit this and pacifistmons

This was done in gen 6
 
Reversionmons ([Gen 7] OU)
Almost every change that can be reverted to its earliest form is made. This includes, but is not limited to, stats, abilities and moves.

Example 1: Nidoking
Stats: No +10 Atk, 75 SpA to match with Gen 1 Special stat
No Ability (it's an option in Showdown) to match with Gen 1-2 Too unfair to Gen 1 and 2 mons
Poison Point only to match with its earliest known Abilities
Gen 1 moves only because it was released in Gen 1 This would make the metagame extremely unbalanced

Example 2: Blizzard
No -10% power debuff
No -20% accuracy debuff
No -20% chance of freeze debuff (Blizzard was 30% frz chance in the original Japanese versions)

Example 3: Physical/Special Split
NO PSS!

Example 4: Critical hits
Speed-based crits Would be broken

Example 5: Mega Evolution
NO MEGAS

Example 6: Z-Moves
NO Z-MOVES

Potential bans:
-Obviously, Blizzard
-Zapdos? (+35 Sp Def)

Questions for the community:
Does this seem like a fun meta to play, what other bans should there be, etc.?
 
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Reversionmons ([Gen 7] OU)
Almost every change that can be reverted to its earliest form is made. This includes, but is not limited to, stats, abilities and moves.

Example 1: Nidoking
Stats: No +10 Atk, 75 SpA to match with Gen 1 Special stat
No Ability (it's an option in Showdown) to match with Gen 1-2 Too unfair to Gen 1 and 2 mons
Poison Point only to match with its earliest known Abilities
Gen 1 moves only because it was released in Gen 1 This would make the metagame extremely unbalanced

Example 2: Blizzard
No -10% power debuff
No -20% accuracy debuff
No -20% chance of freeze debuff (Blizzard was 30% frz chance in the original Japanese versions)

Example 3: Physical/Special Split
NO PSS!

Example 4: Critical hits
Speed-based crits Would be broken

Potential bans:
-Obviously, Blizzard
-Zapdos? (+35 Sp Def)

Questions for the community:
Does this seem like a fun meta to play, what other bans should there be, etc.?
I and others have considered stuff like this, but it's way too subjective and chaotic.
 
Just curious, you say "considered" but I don't suppose you're on a council of any sort.

Anyhow, I can definitely see chaotic, but subjectivity isn't necessarily bad imo.
I'm not on a council, but I have considered submitting a meta where every move had every nerf reverted, and another guy who goes by CROSSOVER GEN had the idea of having each mon play by the rules of different gens. I didn't submit my idea, because I realized it was subjective as hell. I don't know of CG ever submitted their idea, but it wasn't super popular here in the workshop.
 
I'm not on a council, but I have considered submitting a meta where every move had every nerf reverted, and another guy who goes by CROSSOVER GEN had the idea of having each mon play by the rules of different gens. I didn't submit my idea, because I realized it was subjective as hell. I don't know of CG ever submitted their idea, but it wasn't super popular here in the workshop.
Alright. And sorry if my response seemed rude, I wasn't accusing you of false superiority or anything. Was legitimately curious if you were on the council
 
With Generation 8 coming around the corner, I think it's the perfect time to introduce this Other Meta.

All Legal

Metagame premise: All Legal allows Pokemon not in Sword and Shield, Mega Evolution, Z-crystal, all removed items and moves to be used. I'm planning to have All Legal in Doubles format as well.

All the Gen 8 Pokemon will get Hidden Power, Return and Frustration. There won't be any new user for Sky Drop and Pursuit, unfortunately.

As for Dynamax, anyone that's holding Mega Stone or Z-Crystal cannot use Dynamax, similar to Rayquaza's unable to Mega Evolve with a Z-crystal.

Banlist:
All Legal OU:
Gen 7 Ubers Clause
+ Kyurem Black
Forget about 3 turns Max Ice from Freeze Shock, it now gets Icicle Spear and Dragon Dance.

All Legal Doubles:
Gen 7 Double Ubers Clause
+ Shadow Tag
+ Berserk Gene
Gothitelle gets Fake Out now, that alone should quickban Shadow Tag.

Potential Bans and Threats:
I've seen some discussion about suspect testing Kartana in Gen 7 OU, so expect Kartana being a huge threat in All Legal OU now that it can use Dynamax to set up Grassy Terrain with Max Overgrowth or demolish stuff that would've wall it with Max Strike (Giga Impact).

Another threat worth considering is Mega Mawile as it has the tools capable of threatening most of the team.

Incineroar could be a huge threat in All Legal Doubles now that Double Intimidate is viable again, and it now gets Parting Shot that acts like Snarl and U-turn combined.

On the one hand, Kyurem Black could be a dangerous Dragon Dance attacker in All Legal Doubles, but the Intimidate heavy nature might make difficult to set up.

Regigigas might be worth considering with Neutralizing Gas nullifying Slow Start and Intimidate, but it might fall flat in practice.
No, I do not I should take a look at Archeops and Slaking.

Questions to the community:
- Can you come out with a better name for this other meta?
- Should All Legal OU suspect test Aegislash now that it has been nerfed?
- Any other threats that we should beware of?
 
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With Generation 8 coming around the corner, I think it's the perfect time to introduce this Other Meta.

All Legal

Metagame premise: All Legal allows Pokemon not in Sword and Shield, Mega Evolution, Z-crystal, all removed items and moves to be used. I'm planning to have All Legal in Doubles format as well.

All the Gen 8 Pokemon will get Hidden Power, Return and Frustration. There won't be any new user for Sky Drop and Pursuit, unfortunately.

As for Dynamax, anyone that's holding Mega Stone or Z-Crystal cannot use Dynamax, similar to Rayquaza's unable to Mega Evolve with a Z-crystal.

Banlist:
All Legal OU:
Gen 7 Ubers Clause
+ Kyurem Black
Forget about 3 turns Max Ice from Freeze Shock, it now gets Icicle Spear and Dragon Dance.

All Legal Doubles:
Gen 7 Double Ubers Clause
+ Shadow Tag
Gothitelle gets Fake Out now, that alone should quickban Shadow Tag.

Potential Bans and Threats:
I've seen some discussion about suspect testing Kartana in Gen 7 OU, so expect Kartana being a huge threat in All Legal OU now that it can use Dynamax to set up Grassy Terrain with Max Overgrowth or demolish stuff that would've wall it with Max Strike (Giga Impact).

Another threat worth considering is Mega Mawile as it has the tools capable of threatening most of the team.

Incineroar could be a huge threat in All Legal Doubles now that Double Intimidate is viable again, and it now gets Parting Shot that acts like Snarl and U-turn combined.

On the one hand, Kyurem Black could be a dangerous Dragon Dance attacker in All Legal Doubles, but the Intimidate heavy nature might make difficult to set up.

Regigigas might be worth considering with Neutralizing Gas nullifying Slow Start and Intimidate, but it might fall flat in practice.
No, I do not I should take a look at Archeops and Slaking.

Questions to the community:
- Can you come out with a better name for this other meta?
- Should All Legal OU suspect test Aegislash now that it has been nerfed?
- Any other threats that we should beware of?
All right! I was really hoping to see gems, megas, z-moves and dynamaxing on the same team.

For the name, Lost and Found? Unforgotten? Abandoned Mons?
 
With Generation 8 coming around the corner, I think it's the perfect time to introduce this Other Meta.

All Legal

Metagame premise: All Legal allows Pokemon not in Sword and Shield, Mega Evolution, Z-crystal, all removed items and moves to be used. I'm planning to have All Legal in Doubles format as well.

All the Gen 8 Pokemon will get Hidden Power, Return and Frustration. There won't be any new user for Sky Drop and Pursuit, unfortunately.

As for Dynamax, anyone that's holding Mega Stone or Z-Crystal cannot use Dynamax, similar to Rayquaza's unable to Mega Evolve with a Z-crystal.

Banlist:
All Legal OU:
Gen 7 Ubers Clause
+ Kyurem Black
Forget about 3 turns Max Ice from Freeze Shock, it now gets Icicle Spear and Dragon Dance.

All Legal Doubles:
Gen 7 Double Ubers Clause
+ Shadow Tag
+ Berserk Gene
Gothitelle gets Fake Out now, that alone should quickban Shadow Tag.

Potential Bans and Threats:
I've seen some discussion about suspect testing Kartana in Gen 7 OU, so expect Kartana being a huge threat in All Legal OU now that it can use Dynamax to set up Grassy Terrain with Max Overgrowth or demolish stuff that would've wall it with Max Strike (Giga Impact).

Another threat worth considering is Mega Mawile as it has the tools capable of threatening most of the team.

Incineroar could be a huge threat in All Legal Doubles now that Double Intimidate is viable again, and it now gets Parting Shot that acts like Snarl and U-turn combined.

On the one hand, Kyurem Black could be a dangerous Dragon Dance attacker in All Legal Doubles, but the Intimidate heavy nature might make difficult to set up.

Regigigas might be worth considering with Neutralizing Gas nullifying Slow Start and Intimidate, but it might fall flat in practice.
No, I do not I should take a look at Archeops and Slaking.

Questions to the community:
- Can you come out with a better name for this other meta?
- Should All Legal OU suspect test Aegislash now that it has been nerfed?
- Any other threats that we should beware of?
How do you plan on determining the Z move power of new moves, or the Max move power of cut moves?
 
I don't think you should include any mechanics that don't exist in Gen 8. This puts it into Pet Mod territory, since interactions between old and new mechanics can only be speculated about, I believe such a metagame should only have 1 single premise: "All Pokemon are transferable to Gen 8", and nothing more. No megas, no z-moves, no other alterations to cartridge mechanics.
 
Believe it or not, cut moves still have sensibly-defined max powers for them, such as 75 for Karate Chop and 130 for Return. The max-power field replaces the old Z-power field in the move data table, so that can't be taken as guidance, but most Z-powers were created in a formulaic manner from the original move power.
 
How do you plan on determining the Z move power of new moves, or the Max move power of cut moves?
As said, that's a simple formula in both cases. The only issue is z versions of new status moves (which can just be declared identical to their non-z form to avoid custom elements)
 

Arai

i am sleepy
I don’t think there’s any point to suggesting any National Dex formats. PS have stated they will include their own National Dex as a format.
I don't think you should include any mechanics that don't exist in Gen 8. This puts it into Pet Mod territory, since interactions between old and new mechanics can only be speculated about, I believe such a metagame should only have 1 single premise: "All Pokemon are transferable to Gen 8", and nothing more. No megas, no z-moves, no other alterations to cartridge mechanics.
It doesn't move into Pet Mod territory, as it doesn't change mechanics, but rather simply include mechanics previously seen in past games and does not directly alter cartridge mechanics. This is also irrelevant as PS have said they will include Megas in National OU but do polls on Z-moves and Gingantamax. My idea is to wait and see how PS! will implement National Dex Formats to see if suggesting any alterations of it makes sense.
How do you plan on determining the Z move power of new moves, or the Max move power of cut moves?
Right now I don't think new moves should be able to be used as a Z-moves, but as Max moves of moves with the same BP still have the same BP as the others when being used as max moves they could calculate it the same way, and I think this could work too.
 
You're right, you could do with Z-moves like I suggested with Max moves.
You know what I meant. No matter how you slice it, mixing Z-moves with new moves is a bad idea. Giving the status moves effects immediately makes it a Pet Mod, while leaving them without any effect is incredibly awkward.
 

Arai

i am sleepy
You know what I meant. No matter how you slice it, mixing Z-moves with new moves is a bad idea. Giving the status moves effects immediately makes it a Pet Mod, while leaving them without any effect is incredibly awkward.
I don't think new status moves should be Z-moves, but in the end it all depends on what PS wants to do.
 
You know what I meant. No matter how you slice it, mixing Z-moves with new moves is a bad idea. Giving the status moves effects immediately makes it a Pet Mod, while leaving them without any effect is incredibly awkward.
*Shrug* I see cutting stuff as inherently more awkward.
 

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