Format Discussion Metronome Battle

I'm assuming Earth Eater and Seed Sower should be banned for being recovery abilities. I suggest that Protean, Libero, Snow Warning, and Battle Bond be unbanned. Protean and Libero have been nerfed to only activate once per switch-in (once per battle in Metronome), Snow Warning summons Snow now which doesn't deal damage, and Battle Bond no longer causes a forme-change and thus does not bypass the BST limit.
 
From what I experienced I agree Commander is probably ban worthy as it is similar to Sturdy Shedinja in being a single target that's hard to get rid of without passive damage, but with a ton of stats everywhere and an extra healthy full PP mon to deal with afterwards. Dondozo is very bulky even at base before a +2 omniboost, and having half a chance to waste an action targetting the unhittable Tatsugiri for an effective 2x evasion is what pushes it over the edge for me. I don't know how it works ingame if Metronome moves can target Tatsugiri or not which would give more chances to attack, but I think the strategy is overbearing as is.

I'm fine with giving Opportunist a shot though. It does look practical in general to benefit from enemy turns and also against the bulky statboost meta strategies if it does copy boosts from abilities and items, basically being the powercreep version of Unaware where both sides get stronger instead of always being neutral. It's funny that even Opportunist Heracross might have the advantage against Intrepid Sword Heracross. I feel like Clear Amulet will be a pretty strong pick as debuff immunity is a solid effect, especially for an item slot, and it synergizes well with stat boosts.

I don't really have a strong opinion on banning any other options or changing BST for now. There's a few megas/Ash-Greninja/Palafin between the current 625 and the Ubers but nothing really necessary either way.

I'm assuming Earth Eater and Seed Sower should be banned for being recovery abilities. I suggest that Protean, Libero, Snow Warning, and Battle Bond be unbanned. Protean and Libero have been nerfed to only activate once per switch-in (once per battle in Metronome), Snow Warning summons Snow now which doesn't deal damage, and Battle Bond no longer causes a forme-change and thus does not bypass the BST limit.
I agree with these as observed in my initial reactions for consistency. Note that Protean and Libero will actually turn you into Metronome's Normal type first as I recall from the launch of Gen 8, so you're stuck with that for the rest of the game.

EDIT: Unless you want to tera and keep Normal STAB though. Speaking of tera I'm fine with it to start as well and see how it goes. There are some strong types and gimmicks but it just adds more options to what was already there.
 
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From what I experienced I agree Commander is probably ban worthy as it is similar to Sturdy Shedinja in being a single target that's hard to get rid of without passive damage, but with a ton of stats everywhere and an extra healthy full PP mon to deal with afterwards. Dondozo is very bulky even at base before a +2 omniboost, and having half a chance to waste an action targetting the unhittable Tatsugiri for an effective 2x evasion is what pushes it over the edge for me. I don't know how it works ingame if Metronome moves can target Tatsugiri or not which would give more chances to attack, but I think the strategy is overbearing as is.

I'm fine with giving Opportunist a shot though. It does look practical in general to benefit from enemy turns and also against the bulky statboost meta strategies if it does copy boosts from abilities and items, basically being the powercreep version of Unaware where both sides get stronger instead of always being neutral. It's funny that even Opportunist Heracross might have the advantage against Intrepid Sword Heracross. I feel like Clear Amulet will be a pretty strong pick as debuff immunity is a solid effect, especially for an item slot, and it synergizes well with stat boosts.

I don't really have a strong opinion on banning any other options or changing BST for now. There's a few megas/Ash-Greninja/Palafin between the current 625 and the Ubers but nothing really necessary either way.


I agree with these as observed in my initial reactions for consistency. Note that Protean and Libero will actually turn you into Metronome's Normal type first as I recall from the launch of Gen 8, so you're stuck with that for the rest of the game.
I only tested Commander a little on the gen 8 ladder, but it did seem quite strong. One more aspect that makes it especially powerful is that it essentially always wins PP wars because Tatsugiri spends the entire first part of the battle doing absolutely nothing (edit: oh you mentioned that, oops). I had meant to test whether random targeting can select the invulnerable Tatsugiri with DaWoblefet last night, but it slipped our minds. It really seems like it ought not to...

I wouldn't agree that Opportunist is a stronger Unaware, though. After all, Unaware should generally beat Opportunist, and certainly I think the best ability for Dondozo on Commander teams is Unaware to beat opposing Opportunist and Mirror Herb users, although Purifying Salt might be a nice alternative. Mold Breaker could also be useful for beating opposing Unaware. On that note, even Wandering Spirit holding Protective Pads could work, and I think that combo might genuinely be worth a try on other Pokemon in general.

Anyway, the format's now merged and soon-to-be online with the suggested banlist changes minus the Commander ban, as is a change that fixes Opportunist and Mirror Herb to copy all boosts except from Opportunist and Mirror Herb.

Edit: It's live! Go nuts!

Edit 2: Ok maybe don't go nuts just yet. Apparently I messed up the Opportunist patch :psynervous:
 
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Everybody thank pyuk for being fast af, looks like it's already up?

Next what I want to bring up: what are the thoughts on some of the new Items/Abilities that are a bit wacky, to say the least? This is not at all a "I think this Ability/Item should be banned" post, more just shouting out some new Abilities/Items that I think could be interesting.
Here's what I see immediately that interests me:

Abilities
- Ruin Abilities:
Lowers either Atk, Def, SpA, or SpD of ALL other Pokemon on the field (even allies, I'd guess). Definitely worth messing around with for at least a little bit.
- Orichalcum Pulse/Hadron Engine: Better Drought/Electric Surge respectively, boosting the user's Atk/SpA by 30% respectively while in that battle condition. This goes nicely with Protosynthesis/Quark Drive, which makes the user's highest stat 1.3x what it normally is, or 1.5x if Speed is the highest stat (worth it!!!) on the respective battle conditions, or when holding Booster Energy.
- Good as Gold: Pokemon is immune to Status moves. Yeah, OK. On paper this might warrant a ban, let's find out
- Mycelium Might: User's status moves always go last, but the moves are unaffected by Abilities. Wonder how this works with Metronome, but if I had to guess, it won't work how I wish it would.
- Opportunist: When an opponent receives stat boosts, the user copies them. The held Item Mirror Herb shares this effect with it, but Mirror Herb is one-use.
- Purifying Salt: Pokemon can't be given status effects. Also it takes half damage from Ghost moves because ?????
- Thermal Exchange: +1 Atk when it by a Fire move, can't be burned.
- Well-Baked Body: +2 Def when hit by a Fire move, immune to Fire moves.

Items
- Mirror Herb (see Opportunist)
- Clear Amulet: Prevents other Pokemon from lowering the holder's stat stages. Clear Body, the item.
- Covert Cloak: Holder doesn't get affected by the secondary effects of other Pokemon's attacks. Shield Dust, the item.

Yup that's it for now, I'll update this post later after I've tested and had my fun. Have fun!
oh yeah, and
Commander (Ability): If the ally of this Pokemon is Dondozo, the user (Tatsugiri) cannot use or be hit by moves; it can be targeted by moves selected by Metronome. Dondozo gets a +2 omniboost. (my preferred tatsu set has mirror herb since it can mirror opposing donzo's boosts, please can we get rid of this)
 
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Irpachuza

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please can we get rid of this
Hey, who wouldn't be a fan of fighting a passive Magic Guard Sturdinja that will dodge all your moves until you beat its 150/115/65 double omniboosted pal? Right? Right?
Some thoughts that might be terribly wrong so feel free to call me out: only counters for it are double Opportunist/Mental Herb or some Unaware shenanigans (maybe a mix of these?), yet you still gotta have enough HP and PPs for Tatsu if you manage to take down Dondozo. The latter, btw, seems to be going for Poison/Ghost teratype, with the first for status and the second for absolute PP stalling. Is it impossible to beat? No, this is metronome after all. Does it seem too centralizing? So far yes, but we are only a few hours into the ladder! While Unaware seems a little more specific, maybe Opportunist stays as a staple choice and after some experimenting Commander gets called out and enters on a less centralized rock-paper-scizors like with Blissposter-Stall-Offense on Gen8. Idk if banning it so fast is the way to go, but seems like it will be one of the heat topics of early ladder days no doubt.
 
Opportunist doesn't matter too much against an Unaware Dondozo, which already has really solid stats for Metronome. As long as everything on the field has Unaware, it's not feeling too fun.
also i'm realizing that atm a lot of the fun new things i looked at aren't actually THAT good yet lul
 

Tapler

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:sv/dondozo::sv/tatsugiri-droopy:
Dondozo @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Metronome

Tatsugiri (Tatsugiri-Droopy) @ Mirror Herb
Ability: Commander
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Metronome
Yeah Commander's pretty absurd rn. Unaware lets you beat Mirror Herb, Opportunist, and opposing Dondozo. Poison Tera prevents Poisoning and Leppa makes up for your low damage output vs Unaware, though Ghost/Fire Tera and Covert Cloak are all good options as well. Tatsugiri-Droopy is used over base for the Defense boost on Order Up, though base might be better for non-Leppa.
Some thoughts that might be terribly wrong so feel free to call me out: only counters for it are double Opportunist/Mental Herb or some Unaware shenanigans (maybe a mix of these?), yet you still gotta have enough HP and PPs for Tatsu if you manage to take down Dondozo.
If the Dondozo is Unaware, which it should be, the only way to win semi-consistently is with your own Unaware mons or with some Mold Breaker + Mirror Herb cteam that loses to everything else. Even then, Dondozo's stats aren't bad for Metronome to begin with, and both of your mons are at half firepower because of the 50% chance to target Tatsu, so getting through it and having enough PP to beat Tatsu afterwards is still no easy feat. In other words, even in its worst matchups, Commander still has decent odds to come out on top. Right now, you either run Unaware Dozo to shit on everything not running Unaware, run a pair of stronger Unaware mons to be slightly favoured into Dozo and beat Opportunist/Weakness Policy/Defiant/Competitive, or run other old school staples like Flower Veil or Fluffy to beat dual Unaware but lose horribly to Dozo. It's way too centralizing to be healthy, easy quickban imo.

:sv/ting-lu::sv/ting-lu:
Ting-Lu @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Metronome

Ting-Lu @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Metronome
Once Commander's gone, I think this is going to be the best SV mon in the meta, its stats are MADE for Metronome and its typing gives it STAB against the most common Tera types. The sets here are just standard WP tanks with Unaware to beat Dondozo and Opportunist (Tera whichever gets a WP proc first unless you know you're facing opposing double Unaware, in which case you just Tera either immediately), but once Commander's banned and the format hopefully starts to diversify (though I wouldn't be surprised if the meta post-Commander is just Fluffy/FVeil beats Unaware beats Opportunist), this thing can run just about any set well. Tera adds a lot of cool options to this mon and to Metronome in general, like Tera Grass Ting-Lu on a Flower Veil squad.


Edit: Just peaked ladder as the first to reach 1400 by using these two squads, plus the occasional Unaware Banded MHeras yesterday when I was running into a lot of Unaware Dozo. Please steal them, they're legit (and I want to see more Cup Deer users).
 
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Celever

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Adding support to banning Tatsugiri x Dondozo (which FTR I think should be done via banning the ability Commander). The Unaware set is unbreakable 90% of the time making it an extremely consistent PP stalling strategy.
 
My experience with double Mirror Herb Unaware is that it's not "slightly favoured" into Dondozo, it's pretty massively favoured:

Wins:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9metronomebattle-1721940523-956rom2m0ecfgir4x9zyuql17igoa23pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9metronomebattle-1721943307
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9metronomebattle-1721950834

Losses:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9metronomebattle-1721946882

Yes, this took only 4 games against Dondozo + Commander Tatsugiri to achieve! Arguably the key is to use only mons that hit hard on both sides in order to waste as few turns as possible - I had similar results last night with Enamorus-T instead of Venusaur-Mega.

Sadly, Mirror Herb + Weakness Policy Unaware is better in the open meta.

I tried a Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Enamorus-T + Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Ghost Landorus-T team in the earliest stages of the Gen 9 Metronome ladder - it performs quite well against everyone but Dondozo + Commander Tatsugiri due to having double mostly free Life Orbs on both mons at first that recedes to worse Intrepid Sword + Intrepid Sword parallel instead of receding to nothing (a la double Power Spot) when one of my mons is KOd.

Yes, I also support banning Commander. It invalidates far too many teams, and I feel like I'm stuck running double Unaware right now for the most consistent results. (Opportunist against my omniboost results in both my and the opposing mon no better off than before, while Unaware lets me take advantage of my own omniboost.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On another note, I like how Ghost Terastal enables several mons with well-rounded stats but at least one horrific weakness (e.g. the Tyranitar in my replays, Landorus-T, Salamence, Dragonite) and fortuitously-for-the-meta fails to work on Megas (e.g. Camerupt-Mega, Abomasnow-Mega).
 
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Mold Breaker Mirror Herb Dondozo does worse at beating Unaware Leppa Dondozo than Unaware Leppa. It doesn’t stop Unaware from ignoring your defensive boosts, so you’re still getting attacked x2 to x1. Meanwhile, you’re not ignoring defensive boosts yourself so you’re only attacking x3 to x2, or x1.5 to x1. The only anti-ability strat that can actually work in your favor is Dondozo with Wandering Spirit Protective Pads which can steal the opponent’s Unaware and not give it back, and then that loses to Unaware Ability Shield. Speaking of, I checked in-game and Ability Shield actually protects against Mold Breaker too.
 
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Ivy

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On another note, I like how Ghost Terastal enables several mons with well-rounded stats but at least one horrific weakness (e.g. the Tyranitar in my replays, Landorus-T, Salamence, Dragonite) and fortuitously-for-the-meta fails to work on Megas (e.g. Camerupt-Mega, Abomasnow-Mega).
Megas can't Terastelize sadly, though maybe it's a good thing since Heracross would be even more powerful than it already is lol.
 

Ivy

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Normally I'd test this out more myself but a brief play session yesterday and the general oversaturation of this strategy indicate that this is pretty nuts. The fact that the other 'mon isn't a waste of space and actually gets to stall and maintain PP the entire time really pushes this over the edge. To keep the early meta hype going, I've submitted a PR to get Commander banned ASAP. pyuk
 
Normally I'd test this out more myself but a brief play session yesterday and the general oversaturation of this strategy indicate that this is pretty nuts. The fact that the other 'mon isn't a waste of space and actually gets to stall and maintain PP the entire time really pushes this over the edge. To keep the early meta hype going, I've submitted a PR to get Commander banned ASAP. pyuk
Okay, cool. Because my counterplay using Ring Target Inwards Out Chansey wasn't working very consistently :row:

An example: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9metronomebattle-1723404344-51mgh4hiwlypo30goc0om8enu13b904pw
 
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I didn't realize this at first, but there is actually a way that nerfed Protean and Libero can still be used to turn into a random non-Normal type, and that is to be pure Normal already so that Protean doesn't first activate on Metronome itself, or the Normal moves it calls so you can keep your opponent in suspense. This can give you a big STAB hit if you get lucky and can even become Steel-type in the most ideal scenario, though it didn't really matter much in the end. I tried this with Porygon2 and Type: Null as they have a valuable niche of Eviolite tanking regardless of type.
 

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