Metagame Misdreavus = dead, Fletchling = alive

[Max Carvalho]

so, by your logic, pokémon like Darumaka/Cranidos are broken? After all, they can easily guarantee a KO too. How about Clamperl, then? It's easily one of the most threatening setup sweepers: almost nothing can wall it. Does that make these pokémon broke? No. They all can't be walled, but they can be revenge killed.

Cranidos is walled by Hippopotas fairly well and I will give you Darumaka cus that thing is insane. But both of these guys are quite predictable and as Rowan stated they are immediately forced out due to a wrong move; Misdreavus basically doesn't need predictions as even if a Porygon eats an SB lets say, Misdreavus has its ways beating Porygon. By the way, wallbreakers aren't supposed to be walled, but asfaic Misdreavus isn't an wallbreaker. Yet it can't be reliably walled.

 

[chimp]

; Misdreavus basically doesn't need predictions as even if a Porygon eats an SB lets say, Misdreavus has its ways beating Porygon.

Misdreavus vs. Porygon can be very prediction reliant, especially if Porygon comes in unscathed.
For one, Porygon can Thunder Wave, if Misdreavus doesn't use Sub, Porygon has a pretty solid chance of winning that fight.
Even if Misdreavus does Sub, there is still the chance that Porygon may have just outright Shadow Balled.

Also, keep in mind Misdreavus has to usually choose between HP Fighting and Dazzling Gleam on the same set. Without HP, Pory and other bulky normals stomp all over Misdreavus. Without DG, mons like Mienfoo and Timburr can check it. Without WoW, it loses a lot of utility and the ability to stop Mienfoo and Pawniard.

So yeah, Misdreavus can beat Porygon. But doings so is not as super easy as some are making it sound.

 

[dsr95]

Well, prem pretty much stated my next point. Misdreavus is NOT obviously broken like some of the other suspects, she seems balanced, but there's a reason she finds a place on a lot of teams, she has the highest BST in LC right now, she has an amazing support movepool, she has sweeping potential, she can go around her checks with the addition of a move(s) and there's almost 0 drawback to just throwing her on a team for free and forgetting that there's other Ghost-types in the metagame right now. Pretty much the only other ghost you'll ever consider in LC is Gastly because it has a secondary STAB and more SpA, other than that, you wouldn't bat an eye to look at the rest since they're highly outclassed by Misdreavus.
That's not a positive effect on the metagame.

 

[mad0ka]

Well, prem pretty much stated my next point. Misdreavus is NOT obviously broken like some of the other suspects, she seems balanced, but there's a reason she finds a place on a lot of teams, she has the highest BST in LC right now, she has an amazing support movepool, she has sweeping potential, she can go around her checks with the addition of a move(s) and there's almost 0 drawback to just throwing her on a team for free and forgetting that there's other Ghost-types in the metagame right now. Pretty much the only other ghost you'll ever consider in LC is Gastly because it has a secondary STAB and more SpA, other than that, you wouldn't bat an eye to look at the rest since they're highly outclassed by Misdreavus.
That's not a positive effect on the metagame.

Outclassing other mons of the same type is unhealthy? The reason other ghost types aren't used is because they all suck. Literally, even with Misdreavus gone, the only truly usable ghost type will be Gastly, but even then Gastly is/was highly usable with Misdreavus in the meta, as you've said. I mean sure there's stuff like Pumpkaboo (uwu), but, seeing as it doesn't really have any recovery bar leech seed, it's really not that great as a wall. Same with other ghost types, except they don't even have leech seed.

 

[Rowan]

Misdreavus vs. Porygon can be very prediction reliant, especially if Porygon comes in unscathed.
For one, Porygon can Thunder Wave, if Misdreavus doesn't use Sub, Porygon has a pretty solid chance of winning that fight.
Even if Misdreavus does Sub, there is still the chance that Porygon may have just outright Shadow Balled.

Also, keep in mind Misdreavus has to usually choose between HP Fighting and Dazzling Gleam on the same set. Without HP, Pory and other bulky normals stomp all over Misdreavus. Without DG, mons like Mienfoo and Timburr can check it. Without WoW, it loses a lot of utility and the ability to stop Mienfoo and Pawniard.

So yeah, Misdreavus can beat Porygon. But doings so is not as super easy as some are making it sound.

Bj + taunt+ hp fight negates prediction vs. porygon. +2 on the switch-in, taunt the next turn. If pory twaves, it'll be able to shadow ball once as you manage to 2hko it with hidden power, with bj leaving you at full hp. If pory shadow balls, you still end up with a dead porygon and about 40% of your health left

 

[chimp]

Bj + taunt+ hp fight negates prediction vs. porygon. +2 on the switch-in, taunt the next turn. If pory twaves, it'll be able to shadow ball once as you manage to 2hko it with hidden power, with bj leaving you at full hp. If pory shadow balls, you still end up with a dead porygon and about 40% of your health left

Yes, but to run Taunt over WoW still hurts Missy in other places. It only really gives it an edge over Cottonee or maybe Foongus but leaves it vulnerable to stuff like Pawniard, Mienfoo, Drilbur, and Munchlax. Not running DG may hurt it when faced against other mons like Scraggy or Timburr.

 

[Rowan]

It's been said many times before in various suspects but having options is not the same thing as having 4mss. Missy has options to get past counters and that's what pushes it over the edge.

 

[Vileman]

Imo it just makes them better. As missy can run so many options, you can never be sure about what can you even send in vs missy, because like it has been said before, each sets fucks over different mons, example you dont want your porygon to get tricked or your pawniard burned, so if you dont lure/guess the set its running it becomes a real problem to know what to send in.

 

[dsr95]

Imo it just makes them better. As missy can run so many options, you can never be sure about what can you even send in vs missy, because like it has been said before, each sets fucks over different mons, example you dont want your porygon to get tricked or your pawniard burned, so if you dont lure/guess the set its running it becomes a real problem to know what to send in.

This sums it up

 

[chimp]

It's been said many times before in various suspects but having options is not the same thing as having 4mss. Missy has options to get past counters and that's what pushes it over the edge.

I do think "having options" and 4MSS can be somewhat related when your options make you vulnerable to other Pokemon. If you get past its counter only to have it checked by the next Pokemon, then it wasn't a good sweep.

Imo it just makes them better. As missy can run so many options, you can never be sure about what can you even send in vs missy, because like it has been said before, each sets fucks over different mons, example you dont want your porygon to get tricked or your pawniard burned, so if you dont lure/guess the set its running it becomes a real problem to know what to send in.

Maybe in the case of something like Swirlix, where if you have the wrong mon you'll be absolutely assblasted 6-0d. So what if your porygon gets a scarf/specs? Its not like that Misdreavus is going to be sweeping any time, and even if tries to you know have a faster/powerful Porygon to counter it.
And this can be applied to so many different pokemon. How can I know if Porygon will be running Psychic or not? How can I know if Pawniard will be running Brick Break, or Mienfoo with Acrobatics, or Magnemite with Magnet Pull? Thats just how the game works.

 

[The Avalanches]

And this can be applied to so many different pokemon. How can I know if Porygon will be running Psychic or not? How can I know if Pawniard will be running Brick Break, or Mienfoo with Acrobatics, or Magnemite with Magnet Pull? Thats just how the game works.

I think Misdreavus's qualities make running strange coverage much more effective and less risky than on something like Psychic Porygon, who misses the Shadow Ball / HP Fighting coverage arguably more than Misdreavus would if it decides to take on one of its counters. There is a lot more room for error in my mind if Missy's TrickSpecs find a bad target, or Mienfoo comes in on a HP Fighting. Missy is so bulky, fast, and versatile that risky plays and strange coverage are comparatively harder to punish.

 

[Superpowerdude]

On top of what others have said regarding Missy being difficult to wall like Cranidos and Darumaka but also having much superior bulk and speed, Misdreavus moves don't have that chance of missing like the other two mons (cranidos has rock slide, head smash and zen headbutt with not 100% accuracy an Darumaka has hustle) and of course missy is more versatile then these two

 

[chimp]

I think Misdreavus's qualities make running strange coverage much more effective and less risky than on something like Psychic Porygon, who misses the Shadow Ball / HP Fighting coverage arguably more than Misdreavus would if it decides to take on one of its counters. There is a lot more room for error in my mind if Missy's TrickSpecs find a bad target, or Mienfoo comes in on a HP Fighting. Missy is so bulky, fast, and versatile that risky plays and strange coverage are comparatively harder to punish.

I don't think that holds up, atleast not when comparing it to something like Porygon, who has bulk and power as well, and not to mention, recovery. Same deal with Mienfoo and Magnemite. Misdreavus' stats are great, yeah, but not to the point where it can afford to mess with its moveset anymore or less so than the Pokemon I mentioned.

 

[The Avalanches]

I don't think that holds up, atleast not when comparing it to something like Porygon, who has bulk and power as well, and not to mention, recovery. Same deal with Mienfoo and Magnemite. Misdreavus' stats are great, yeah, but not to the point where it can afford to mess with its moveset anymore or less so than the Pokemon I mentioned.

That's part of what makes Missy so dangerous, though. It's unbelievably versatile, and that means scouting its move set can make it even more threatening, because you don't know 100% for sure what it is running, and finding out can lead to having something of yours crippled.

I'll give you that it might suffer slightly from 4MSS, but it can run Shadow Ball and virtually anything else with no detriment to its usability.

 

[Slashari]

I agree. In the past, I didn't find Missy too dangerous. Then I realized the multitude of sets it can run, each equally as viable, and each good in its own right. If you switch in Porygon, it can get fucked over by Trick, or can be taunted and dealt with much easier. Anticipating a Pawn switch? Hit it with a WoW or HP Fighting. Missy also has great bulk which can allow it to live Pursuits and most non-STAB Knock Off. Substitute really screws over Pawniard if you mispredict, and its coverage is stellar. The difference in the fact that Missy can run a bunch of sets and Fletch can run different "sets" is that for Fletch, you know that at its core, it's going to be spamming Acrobatics. With Missy, it has great all around coverage and can perform multiple roles. I'm still a bit undecided on whether I want Missy banned. I anticipate that at high level tourney play, it's a lot more dangerous than on the ladder, simply because most ladder players use really generic sets and you know what's going to happen.

 

[macle]

Just wondering if anyone else feels they should always have fletchling on their team? Whenever i use a team that doesn't have fletch on it, i feel less prepared for a lot of threats or they would be a shit ton easier to deal with. I can just slap it on every team and i get a check for 75% of the metagame.

 

[Celestavian]

I don't feel anywhere close to that, and not for Misdreavus either. Unlike Gligar, who could make any team better, Misdreavus and Fletchling are not as easy to tack onto a team. Fletchling's lack of defensive utility and near inability to be switched in means that you need a solid core to make up for that. It especially suffers if you don't have a way of keeping Stealth Rock off the field. Misdreavus has a harder time of being worthless, considering how great its stats are all around, but I did end up replacing it on the team I used to qualify for voting because I felt it wasn't pulling its weight, so it is possible. Thankfully, I think we've moved past all the suspects that could make any team better by just slapping them on.

 

[Corporal Levi]

Just wondering if anyone else feels they should always have fletchling on their team? Whenever i use a team that doesn't have fletch on it, i feel less prepared for a lot of threats or they would be a shit ton easier to deal with. I can just slap it on every team and i get a check for 75% of the metagame.

There are some exceptions, of course, but I feel as if Fletchling tends not to fit in on more defensively oriented teams very well at all because its inability to switch in on most things renders it difficult to fully utilize. Even though a win condition is appreciated, I've found that a win condition that is also able to pull its weight as a check to specific mons during early/mid game tends to be more beneficial, such as Calm Mind Spritzee or Bulk Up Timburr.
Even on more offensively minded teams, Fletchling is indeed a great asset, but I don't think it's anywhere near mandatory the way Gligar or Tangela in their respective eras were. Certain offensive archetypes, such as Sticky Web and Sun, would usually run other Pokemon. To be frank, I find myself running Fletchling on most of my more straight-forward offense teams as well, but I still have a few that don't use Fletchling that aren't significantly more terrible than my other teams, like teams built around Zigzagoon; Fletchling's strengths, although notable, certainly aren't irreplaceable by any stretch.

 

[tcr]

I feel that way about Misdreavus, since Misdreavus can fit on literally any team in existance, as it is the strongest NP attacker, as well as hazard control, as well as a status spreader. It can literally be anything you want it to be, which is where the problem comes in. Misdreavus is simply too versatile, centralizing the metagame and covering a large portion of the metagame. There is literally no reason NOT to use Misdreavus, which is the same thing Gligar had tbh.

 

[Rowan]

I agree with Levi fletchling isn't really the best for defensive teams, but on offensive teams fletchling is just too easy to fit on. I think I use missy less than fletch because i do think fletch is easier to just slap on a team. Missy is great and it's the best offensive mon, but it doesn't fill as many roles for a team as fletch and some of the other suspects.

 

[Aerow]

Just wondering if anyone else feels they should always have fletchling on their team? Whenever i use a team that doesn't have fletch on it, i feel less prepared for a lot of threats or they would be a shit ton easier to deal with. I can just slap it on every team and i get a check for 75% of the metagame.

At the start of the meta we have now, I felt that Fletchling was an amazing Pokemon, that I had to use on every team. However, this was mainly because most people often had no checks for Fletchling. Fletchling could therefore easily sweep a lot of teams, and was a solid win condition. Nowadays, I rarely find Fletchling to be that good. I basically don't feel like Fletchling does as much work, aside from forcing switches and revenge-killing. Don't misunderstand; Fletchling is a great Pokemon in LC, but it's no way near something I feel I have to use, and I have very few teams with Fletchling. Misdreavus, on the other hand, is a Pokemon that I always feel does a good job, and is easier to fit onto a team, due to the many roles Misdreavus can perform, although it's not really mandatory, either.

 

[Mr.378]

Right, I've been wanting to talk about these two for a while now and I've been sitting on this essay for too long so I'll keep this simple and just answer the questions in the OP:

Misdreavus:

1) Is Misdreavus broken?

Maybe not broken but it is very powerful. It can run several sets and has amazing stats to back them up. The Nasty Plot set is an incredible sweeper, given that the opponents dark types and/or Fletchling is properly dealt with. Checking it is difficult due to it's great movepool and stats, but it is easily revenge killed by powerful dark types like Pawniard, as well as Fletchling. So Misdreavus can be considered broken by virtue of it's sweeping potential and great movepool being able to threaten the entire tier after one turn of easy set up. I was originally against banning it, but after considering it's I can see why Misdreavus can be considered banworthy.

2) Is Misdreavus making Little Cup not fun?

No, Misdreavus is powerful but it is not enough to make Little Cup not fun on its own. It is very powerful but not that limiting to the team building process as it still allows for player interaction. It is a powerful pokemon, but not really a degenerate one so it doesn't really make little cup not fun.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

I'll talk about this later, as my answer for this is the same with Fletchling.

Fletchling:

1) Is Fletchling broken?

It kind of is. It isn't so overpowered that it dominates the tier and is unstoppable, but at the same time it is powerful enough that it limits every team by forcing them to run a specific counter to it. It is very hard to check because of its priority allowing it to ignore speed in all but a few cases. As such Fletchling is a very centralizing pokemon. You either run one of it's specific hard counters or you get destroyed by it. Even among it's counters it is still very possible to play around them with it's moveset. For example, scarf Pawniard is usually a decent check to Fletchling but with overheat it can take one hit and kill in response. Because of how limiting it is I would say that Fletchling is broken to some degree.

2) Is Fletchling making Little Cup not fun?

Yes, it really kind of is. Because of not only how simple it is but because of how limiting it is to team building Fletchling does make Little Cup less fun. It is also difficult to play around it because of how its priority attacks limit what every pokemon can do against it therefore limiting player interaction.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

With both Fletchling and Misdreavus I would say no. They may be powerful and in some cases limiting, but they are not keeping people out of the tier. If any indevidual wanted to play Little Cup, then they would have already tried playing it and neither of the two suspects would really stop them from doing that. That being said Fletchling kind of is a problem in this regard. It limiting team building to the extent that it does can get one to become bored of Little Cup and stop playing it. So I wouldn't say that they're keeping people out of the tier, but they kind of are having it stagnate.

To summarize: Both suspects are very powerful and should be banned, but Fletchling more so as it existing is allowing team building to centralize around it and having the diversity of the metagame suffer as a result.

 

[g]

1) Is Misdreavus broken?
Probably, the fact that it is so bulky (nearly as bulky as some defensive mons :/)and powerful at the same time and that can beat almost any switch in if it packs the correct moves makes it incredibly hard to deal with and the offensive buff Ghost got + the addition of Dazzling Gleam makes it even more threatening that it was last gen, even with the Knock off boost.
Its sea wide offensive and supportive movepool (stuff like Wisp, Taunt, ecc) makes it too much for this tier and its incredible bulk makes it incredibly easy to set up or take a hit and continue sweeping. However there are Pokemon who can stop its common sets like Choice Scarf Pawniard and Porygon who can get around Misdreavus with some prediction.
2) Is Misdreavus making Little Cup not fun?
I'd say no. The fact that you have to play carefully to prevent Misdreavus from setting up can be annoying sometimes but even then if your team is prepared you can generally deal with it.

1) Is Fletchling broken?
I don't think so. The fact that it has plenty of checks that are also good Pokemon in general (Chinchou, Archen) and that it is sooo weak unboosted makes it reasonably easy to deal with if it has not set up and as its coverage is unreliable (using Natural Gift hinders its Revenge Killing capabilities:/) it tends to lose 1v1 against a majority of the metagame if unboosted. However the fact that Diglett can easily trap/weaken most of those makes it scarier than it really is allowing it to shine late game.

2) Is Fletchling making Little Cup not fun?
The fact that Fletchling removes creativity and variety from teambuilding (everyone is running FletchDig :o) is probably the main reason to Ban it. It also makes Grass-types a liability because they are only setup fodder for it furtherly makes me thing it is not a good presence in the tier.

Fletchinder Pic because it is better B)

 

[Rowan]

Another point relating to the questions in the OP: I believe missy does discourage people from playing LC.
The speed ties that LC is infamous for aren't really that relevant since banning gligar and murkrow got the boot - however, I believe missy is the last offender. Using missy, I've found that if I've managed to remove missy's counters ready for a sweep, people have ended up being forced to rely on speed ties from their aipom or ponyta or abra or even their own missy. I've also been in situations myself, where my counter has gone down and i've just had to say, fuck it i'll switch in ponyta, flare blitz and hope I win the tie. This really isn't healthy imo, and just contributes to the 'omg lc is 50/50s' which discourages so many people from playing the tier.

 

[Rowan]

If Speed ties are the issue, are we not simply going to encounter this with slower Speed tiers? Speed ties are an inherent part of LC, even if we ban Misdreavus. If that's what is discouraging people from LC, the're still not going to want to come and play, because Speed ties will still be relevant.

no speed tie is as relevant as missy vs. other 19 speeders.
only other relevant ones tbh are archen/mienfoo/drilbur trio, but tbh none of these would be a OHKO on each other and if you're relying on them to win the speed tie it's probably not the best thing to do, as all of them have better, common switchins.

 

[kingmidas]

Rowan, you do realize that missy can't even OHKO the missy trying to sweep if it has eviolite and above 70% health. (excuse me for one liner but I don't have much else to say). So if its lategame and you're lacking your answers and need to rely on speed tie, rip if its healthy.
Edit: get rekt lord alphose :)