Ladder Mix and Mega

FOZ369 said:
What poke would you switch into a Lopunnite Landorus-T? Skarmory? Obvious switch right? Smack down predicting the switch. Then Skarm only has two options. Switch or take the EQ. Landorus-T can now SD or EQ Skarmory or any incoming switch.

I dont run smack down for power.
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Unless Skarm is not sent out and you realize that you're running an EXTREMELY niche move for the chance to hit a threat on an uncommon playstyle. Not to mention that if you mispredict and go for a coverage move/SD for the switchin, and skarm stays in, you could have a very dead landorus. This is a meta where multiple megastones are viable options, you might end up fighting a Skarm that is more than able to take an EQ

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 230-272 (68.8 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is against Sablenite Skarm, which is not a KO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Skarmory: 172-204 (51.4 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is against Aggronite skarm, which isn't a KO, and will leave skarm with enough HP to Brave Bird you and live.
Not to mention you're running an Adamant nature for this, which greatly decreases your speed in a meta where speed tiers are awkward and having as much speed as possible is best.
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 210-248 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Skarmory: 157-186 (47 - 55.6%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
 
The way I see it is that the go-to switch against Lopunnite Lando-T is always gonna be a Skarmory, which is a hard counter, but with smack down, there is at least a possibility to kill a Skarmory, whether it is weakened or you somehow managed to SD before using smack down. I feel like stone edge or rock slide would only be useful for a late game sweeper. They wouldn't help as useful as smack down is when it comes to being a wallbreaker. It gives Lopunnite Lando-T the potential to hit a wall with one of its STAB moves or both? (I'm not sure if smack down just allows flying types to be hit by ground moves or if it removes the flying type altogether.)

The weakness to flying part is what really hurts Lopunnite Lando-T the most in dealing with Skarmory though. And yeah I think that Lopunnite isn't the best stone to use with Lando-T. This is the Lando-T I use though:

Landorus-Therian @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Frustration
- Smack Down
- Swords Dance

This Lando-T functions as a semi-wall and a wall breaker. I use this as my check to physical attackers such as Terakion and any other Lando-T. Takes no super effective damage from most physical attackers, takes resisted damage from fighting, has intimidate, and gets 70+ defense. Switch in on almost any physical attacker and get a free SD (they'll either switch or give you negligible damage). This is the Lando-T I'd be comfortable with when facing skarmory.



I can now see as to why people wouldn't want to use smack down, but I still think its overall more valuable to use on a Lando-T if you're looking for a wallbreaker out of it.
 
FOZ369 said:
It gives Lopunnite Lando-T the potential to hit a wall with one of its STAB moves or both? (I'm not sure if smack down just allows flying types to be hit by ground moves or if it removes the flying type altogether.)
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Smack Down forcibly grounds a target. This has no effect on its typing -it's not Roost- but applies even to Levitate, Magnet Rise, being in the middle of Fly (But not Sky Drop), and pretty much anything else I'm forgetting.

I haven't tried Smack Down in MnM myself, but I've gotten some use out of it in other metas. It's legitimately useful against certain walls that would really rather stay in, but suddenly can't.

I do disagree with the statement that Skarmory is the go-to wall for dealing with Landorus-Therian. I personally prefer Hippowdon, which Landorus-Therian has literally nothing super effective against and can't possibly get anything super effective against. (Unless you're running Red Orb Hippowdon, in which case never mind) It's got less Defense than Skarmory, but more HP, and MnM's mechanics tend to favor bolstering the Defense/Special Defense of high HP Pokemon over further bolstering them on Pokemon that are already high in Defense and/or Special Defense.

The main reason I'd argue against Smack Down on Lopunnite Landorus-Therian is that Landorus-Therian gets Gravity. It's not a damaging move, but getting in chipping damage isn't as useful when Sashes and Sturdy aren't really a thing, and it lasts for multiple turns. If your opponent happens to be running High Jump Kick on any of their Pokemon, it temporarily blocks that, too, if you've gotten Spikes, Toxic Spikes, or Sticky Web up it will cause further switch-ins to be affected even if they're Flying or Levitating, and if you're running Hammer Arm it ensures it can't miss. Of course, all the same applies to yourself, so it can be a two-edged blade... but I suspect for a lot of teams it's superior to running Smack Down.
 
Yeah Gravity does seem like a better move to run than smack down in MnM. It would also help another poke on my team as well. I'll run that instead now.
 
FOZ369 said:
Yeah Gravity does seem like a better move to run than smack down in MnM. It would also help another poke on my team as well. I'll run that instead now.
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Tbh, I just wouldn't suggest running loppunite lando. There are far better options out there that can probably fill the same role on your team, and do it better. Just my thoughts, feel free to whatever of course.
 
MaestroDeSWAG said:
Tbh, I just wouldn't suggest running loppunite lando. There are far better options out there that can probably fill the same role on your team, and do it better. Just my thoughts, feel free to whatever of course.
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Oh I don't use Lopunnite Lando-T. It was just brought up so I was discussing it. I use Salamencite Lando-T. I posted the set I use in one of my comments above.
 
With Ghoul King 's permission, I'd like to spark a bit of discussion with a mini-research week where we talk about underrated sets, 'mons, and find alternative sets for our A-S tiers and find stuff that might be cool or viable, just heavily underrated.

For example, Manaphy's Victini Lure set(I believe MaestroDeSWAG came up with it) with sceptilite as otherwise Victini hard counters it, and Manaphy can even get free LightningRod boosts from it it lures in a powerful threat that counters it, and can even sweep if said counter is gone, despite being less powerful.
 
thdhted said:
With Ghoul King 's permission, I'd like to spark a bit of discussion with a mini-research week where we talk about underrated sets, 'mons, and find alternative sets for our A-S tiers and find stuff that might be cool or viable, just heavily underrated.

For example, Manaphy's Victini Lure set(I believe MaestroDeSWAG came up with it) with sceptilite as otherwise Victini hard counters it, and Manaphy can even get free LightningRod boosts from it it lures in a powerful threat that counters it, and can even sweep if said counter is gone, despite being less powerful.
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I approve of this. But that wasn't me, lol. Do you have anything in particular, atm?
 
If we're talking about underrated sets, then Red Orb Togekiss needs to be brought up. It was in 1nvalid's RMT. We both came up with the idea of putting Red Orb on Togekiss separately. When I first played him on ladder i thought he got the idea from me, but that wasn't the case. Now to mention why it's good...

It is just like Red Orb Azelf except it:
-has a slightly lower base special attack (170 compared to 175)
-is slower (80 compared to 115 base speed)
-is bulkier (85/115/115 compared to 75/90/70 defenses)
-has a better defensive typing (fairy/fire compared to psychic/fire)
-has access to recovery (morning sun or roost)

The coverage they have is around the same. Togekiss doesn't have tbolt but it has aura sphere (Azelf doesn't even have focus blast). It hard checks Weavile too, which is nice. This should certainly be on the threat list.

Nice replay of it doing work: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-252398200
 
MaestroDeSWAG said:
I approve of this. But that wasn't me, lol. Do you have anything in particular, atm?
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Not really, the idea was to discuss underrated sets on top ranked 'mons, as talk about underrated 'mons themselves.
For example, this thing:

Vaporeon @ Aggronite
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Roar/Heal Bell
- Wish
- Protect

This is literally a superior alomoala. Posses a LOT of bulk, and while its wishes aren't as fat, it doesn't have to rely on Toxic to deal damage. Has a delightful Water/Steel typing and filter to back up said typing.
 
Tornadus @ Pinsirite
Ability: Prankster/Defiant
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Frustration
- Superpower
- Crunch/knock off

This is a neat set I came up with for a birdspam team that I really like. It is designed to be basically ditto-proof, which is situational, but occasionally helpful. 131 speed is awesome as it sits just above 130, which is really the biggest speed tier you want to beat, imo, and doesn't waste a whole bunch in speed at the same time. 145 attack isn't huge by any means, and the lack of swords dance/dragon dance makes it seem initially outclassed, but it's honestly really good. It works best late-game to finish off weakened teams, but it has just enough power and speed to function earlier on as well. The best part about it is tornadus lures a special set really easily, since no guard hurricane seems so good that there is no other reason to use it, but this frees up your pidgeotite as well and let's you beat your usual checks like blissey with impunity. As for the moves, frustration is obviously meant to ditto-proof it, along with superpower, and crunch doesn't really deal a whole lot of damage to torn either. Knock off is potentially even better, despite the major nerf to it, since ubers had definitely increased in popularity towards the end of the month that it was omotm and it also further ditto-proofs it (again, pretty small, but it is situationally helpful).
 
MaestroDeSWAG said:
Tornadus @ Pinsirite
Ability: Prankster/Defiant
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Frustration
- Superpower
- Crunch/knock off

This is a neat set I came up with for a birdspam team that I really like. It is designed to be basically ditto-proof, which is situational, but occasionally helpful. 131 speed is awesome as it sits just above 130, which is really the biggest speed tier you want to beat, imo, and doesn't waste a whole bunch in speed at the same time. 145 attack isn't huge by any means, and the lack of swords dance/dragon dance makes it seem initially outclassed, but it's honestly really good. It works best late-game to finish off weakened teams, but it has just enough power and speed to function earlier on as well. The best part about it is tornadus lures a special set really easily, since no guard hurricane seems so good that there is no other reason to use it, but this frees up your pidgeotite as well and let's you beat your usual checks like blissey with impunity. As for the moves, frustration is obviously meant to ditto-proof it, along with superpower, and crunch doesn't really deal a whole lot of damage to torn either. Knock off is potentially even better, despite the major nerf to it, since ubers had definitely increased in popularity towards the end of the month that it was omotm and it also further ditto-proofs it (again, pretty small, but it is situationally helpful).
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Seems cool, though I feel like thundrus does it better, with the ability to go mixed and possessing a better typing offensively and defensively. Also, use Defiant over prankster, the ability to get a free SD and threaten potential defoggers is a HUGE bonus for Sticky webs and hazard stacking teams.



Also, someone sprung this on me at one point. It worked well, but I wanted someone else's opinion:

Samurott @ Banettite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Waterfall
- Megahorn
- Copycat

Prankster waterfall with copycat, alongside being able to pack Taunt makes this thing a pretty decent sweeper, despite not being OMFG SO STRONG. has decent bulk to take hits and can SD.
 
thdhted said:
Seems cool, though I feel like thundrus does it better, with the ability to go mixed and possessing a better typing offensively and defensively. Also, use Defiant over prankster, the ability to get a free SD and threaten potential defoggers is a HUGE bonus for Sticky webs and hazard stacking teams.



Also, someone sprung this on me at one point. It worked well, but I wanted someone else's opinion:

Samurott @ Banettite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Waterfall
- Megahorn
- Copycat

Prankster waterfall with copycat, alongside being able to pack Taunt makes this thing a pretty decent sweeper, despite not being OMFG SO STRONG. has decent bulk to take hits and can SD.
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Thundurus doesn't have bulk up though, iirc. That's pretty much the whole reason I chose torn instead. Prankster works well because it allows you to get off a bulk up against a foe that has already mega evolved before they can hit you on the turn that you mega, but defiant is an option as well. It's just more situational.

I'm kinda confused by that set, tbh. Like, I just don't really understand how you use it and stuff. Any further explanation would be awesome.
 
MaestroDeSWAG said:
Thundurus doesn't have bulk up though, iirc. That's pretty much the whole reason I chose torn instead. Prankster works well because it allows you to get off a bulk up against a foe that has already mega evolved before they can hit you on the turn that you mega, but defiant is an option as well. It's just more situational.

I'm kinda confused by that set, tbh. Like, I just don't really understand how you use it and stuff. Any further explanation would be awesome.
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Seems pretty straightforward to me. Banettite gives Prankster. If you want to use whatever move last occurred (be it yours or the opponent's), click Copycat on your next turn. Prankster gives it priority, so you'll go first. This makes it hard for the opponent to mess you up by moving for you. Prankster Copycat has miscellaneous utility as well beyond priority attacking, like stealing hazards or a Rapid Spin.

In Gen V, this trick was used by Riolu to get priority Roar and sweep unprepared teams after hazards. Copycat has since been changed to not call reduced-priority moves.

I do question whether Samurott is the best user of the strategy, though. I'd have to dig into it.
 
Jynx might be good with Bannetite. I'm thinking a set of sweet kiss, nasty plot, ice beam, and copycat would be neat if those moves are all compatible on the same set.

Edit: yes I know it's Jynx but outside of luc it has the best mono attack typing that learns copycat

there are other options but you're looking at stuff that can simply be walled by immunities/abilities/typings
luc is best for prankster copycat obviously, but Jynx might be okay too


tegrof19 said:
Rest and Sleep Talk are affected by Prankster as well. There was a CurseLax set posted before with the strategy.
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That thing had to be taken care of immediately or it would wreck my whole team.
 
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Akumeoy said:
Seems pretty straightforward to me. Banettite gives Prankster. If you want to use whatever move last occurred (be it yours or the opponent's), click Copycat on your next turn. Prankster gives it priority, so you'll go first. This makes it hard for the opponent to mess you up by moving for you. Prankster Copycat has miscellaneous utility as well beyond priority attacking, like stealing hazards or a Rapid Spin.

In Gen V, this trick was used by Riolu to get priority Roar and sweep unprepared teams after hazards. Copycat has since been changed to not call reduced-priority moves.

I do question whether Samurott is the best user of the strategy, though. I'd have to dig into it.
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I get that, but it is very situational in use. If the opponent last used waterfall, and they are a water type, they your priority that you've built the set for isn't very effective on the opponent. Yeah, it's got 80 BP, but resisted that's not exactly a lot. And it's not like you are going to get off a swords dance and they are going to click waterfall against samurott, basically, your best bet is to predict the resisted attack and come in, swords dance, then use copycat to hit whatever they sent in. However, the problem is, they are most likely going to send in a resist, so even at +2, you won't be doing a lot with and 80 BP attack. Also, what if the last attack was special? Then you are forced to use a special attack with no investment for priority. It just seems really situational to me
 
MaestroDeSWAG said:
I get that, but it is very situational in use. If the opponent last used waterfall, and they are a water type, they your priority that you've built the set for isn't very effective on the opponent. Yeah, it's got 80 BP, but resisted that's not exactly a lot. And it's not like you are going to get off a swords dance and they are going to click waterfall against samurott, basically, your best bet is to predict the resisted attack and come in, swords dance, then use copycat to hit whatever they sent in. However, the problem is, they are most likely going to send in a resist, so even at +2, you won't be doing a lot with and 80 BP attack. Also, what if the last attack was special? Then you are forced to use a special attack with no investment for priority. It just seems really situational to me
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Samurott is already slow, so if you're outspeeding stuff you should be SDing, or just using Waterfall, as if you score the KO, you still have your priority waterfall. Also, you still have a coverage move if you need it.
 
thdhted said:
Samurott is already slow, so if you're outspeeding stuff you should be SDing, or just using Waterfall, as if you score the KO, you still have your priority waterfall. Also, you still have a coverage move if you need it.
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But you don't have priority waterfall... At least you don't usually
 
Okay, can I just say that Mew is REALLY unexplored in this meta? I like, see 90% of mews running Pidegotenite, and maybe 10% run other sets.
The sets I've seen/used with mew:

Mew @ Sablenite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Roost

Already covered this one b4, it's amazing and nobody uses it for some reason

Mew @ Lopunnite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- Sucker Punch

This one's fun as a surprise sweeper


Mew @ Manectite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Volt Switch
- Psyshock
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp

Bulky pivot with Will-o-Wisp, basically rotom on steroids.


Mew @ Charizardite X
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Zen Headbutt
- Drain Punch
- Rock Polish


A fun cleaner, with many coverage options to take out specific threats.
 
thdhted said:
Okay, can I just say that Mew is REALLY unexplored in this meta? I like, see 90% of mews running Pidegotenite, and maybe 10% run other sets.
The sets I've seen/used with mew:

Mew @ Sablenite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Roost

Already covered this one b4, it's amazing and nobody uses it for some reason

Mew @ Lopunnite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- Sucker Punch

This one's fun as a surprise sweeper


Mew @ Manectite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Volt Switch
- Psyshock
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp

Bulky pivot with Will-o-Wisp, basically rotom on steroids.


Mew @ Charizardite X
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Zen Headbutt
- Drain Punch
- Rock Polish


A fun cleaner, with many coverage options to take out specific threats.
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These are all really interesting sets- lopunite seems slightly outclassed, tbh, but even that seems pretty decent. Sablenit seems like the best of the bunch for its own viability, but the great thing about mew is the surprise factor to it, which gives it sooo much viability. Charizardite in particular really intrigues me. It's got a sweet typing and coverage that easily patches up its shortcomings. Me gusta mucho. I think I'll post some stuff later today.
 
My favourite late game sweeper in M&M is Pinsirite Carracosta. This is the set I use:

Carracosta @ Pinsirite
Ability: Sturdy
- Waterfall
- Return
- Shell Smash
- Aqua Jet

Water/Flying is already great coverage (resisted only by Water/Steel, Water/Electric, Dragon/Steel and Dragon/Electric, Abilities aside) but what makes this so good is that it can set up a Shell Smash pretty well. Stay normal with Sturdy and then mega on the next turn or use the typing switch for mindgames. Fighting becomes a resist, Ground becomes an immunity and Grass goes from a quad weakness to neutral - with the additional defense you can easily tank a hit if you predict correctly. On the contrary, Rock becomes a weakness and the Electric weakness becomes stronger so that is still a problem you have to keep in mind if you try and sweep with it. Two other things that are also bad for Carracosta are Espeed, which will hurt at -1 Defense, even with the big base stat and it also outprioritizes Aqua Jet, and Carracosta's low base speed, even at +2 (Jolly of course) it only gets to 358 Speed, which is slower than anything with 114 base Speed if it's fully invested. After going mega it has 446 Speed at +2, which ties with base 154 Speed (I don't have anything in mind right now that reaches this) and of course some Choice Scarf users will be able to outspeed it.

It's definitely not the best Pinsirite user or late game sweeper this OM has to offer but I like using it because of the setup opportunities and mindgames. And I like to imagine that Carracosta's shell is a jetpack.
 
So Aqua is carrying a Doubles version of MnM. Worth a bump?

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-mixandmegadoubles-2987

In which SpartanMalice and I use our Singles teams to try out MnM Doubles.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-mixandmegadoubles-3376

In which I have marginally adapted my team to the MnM Doubles environment.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-mixandmegadoubles-3667

In which I've finally made a team specifically for MnM Doubles, based around Hyper Voice spam. Unfortunately, well-timed hax costs me the entire match. But it was still cool overall.

---

I went with the obvious Hyper Voice spam, but I suspect there's considerably more creative options to get into. I also have a Red Orb user, which prompts the idea: might Houndoomite actually be viable in MnM Doubles, now that it can be paired with a good setter?

You can get into Discharge shenanigans, but only with one Sceptilite user. Any interesting combos worth exploring anyway? Maybe your Sceptilite user can be lobbing a Heat Wave, paired with a Discharging Red Orb user?

Obviously Audinite is no longer trash. Good? Great? Hard to say, but adding Fairy is really useful. Manectite's Intimidate is also fantastic, Garchompite and Steelixite have a bit more potential since you can head out alongside a Sand setter (But still held back by Red Orb and Blue Orb overruling Sand), and of course Red Orb and Blue Orb have some potential for weather team shenanigans. There's probably more subtle synergies though, and I'm especially intrigued by those.
 
I would DEFINITELY say houndoomite is strong in MnM doubles. With stuff like Volcarona, who already has some usable doubles oriented moves, alongside a powerful sp. atk boosted by sun, it can definitely turn nasty. Heck, several other stones that don't see too much use can work here. Blue orb+ swift swim sounds fun. As well as tyranitarite+Steelixite or Garchompite for some nice power.
 
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