Edit: Never mind me, I'd forgotten you'd also changed that mechanic. So, should I let Mega-Hoopa use Hyperspace Fury?
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M&M Mix and Mega
- Thread starter xavgb
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Edit: Never mind me, I'd forgotten you'd also changed that mechanic. So, should I let Mega-Hoopa use Hyperspace Fury?
Grains of Salt so you say you wanted replays and proof?
Here is undeniable proof that Darkrai needs a ban:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7mixandmega-46396
Here is undeniable proof that Darkrai needs a ban:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7mixandmega-46396
Now that Genesect is unbanned from holding Mega Stones, it's a big threat with Pinsirite:
New stats: 71/150/115/130/115/119
Genesect @ Pinsirite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe (Not sure what would be good EVs here, using Smogon analysis)
Lonely Nature
- Techno Blast
- Extreme Speed
- Shift Gear
- U-turn
Especially with a boost with Download this can become a monster, with good attacking stats, acceptable defenses, and a high speed stat.
I also don't really know why Regigigas was unbanned. Now it has this:
Regigigas @ Aggronite
Ability: Slow Start
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Superpower
- Return
- Thunder Wave
New stats: 110/190/160/80/130/100
For a more attacking set, there's also this:
Regigigas @ Lopunnite
Ability: Slow Start
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Superpower/Drain Punch
- Return
- Iron Head/filler
New stats: 110/220/120/80/110/130
New stats: 71/150/115/130/115/119
Genesect @ Pinsirite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe (Not sure what would be good EVs here, using Smogon analysis)
Lonely Nature
- Techno Blast
- Extreme Speed
- Shift Gear
- U-turn
Especially with a boost with Download this can become a monster, with good attacking stats, acceptable defenses, and a high speed stat.
I also don't really know why Regigigas was unbanned. Now it has this:
Regigigas @ Aggronite
Ability: Slow Start
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Superpower
- Return
- Thunder Wave
New stats: 110/190/160/80/130/100
For a more attacking set, there's also this:
Regigigas @ Lopunnite
Ability: Slow Start
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Superpower/Drain Punch
- Return
- Iron Head/filler
New stats: 110/220/120/80/110/130
Hey,
Mix and Mega was announced as a rotational ladder(Mix and Mega is Guranteed every third month, otherwise it's AAA/Sketchmons). Because of lack of transperency on my part this was not clear, some of you believed it would be permanent ladder. I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. If you do want Mix and Mega to be a permanent ladder, keep supporting it!
Bug/Fighting, Beast Boost, 107/139/139/53/53/79
I really want to talk about this absolute beast. Without a doubt one of my favourite pokemon introduced in generation 7. Buzzwoles best stats are its Attack, HP and Defence while the rest are lacking. Bug/Fighting is a meh offensive typing, being resisted by ghost, poison, fairy and flying types - and Buzzwole does not a have a ton to minigate this. Defensively, paired with those stats, Buzzwole becomes an amazing physical wall. Fighting/Bug resists Bug, Dark, Fighting, Grass and Ground. Bar Grass these are primarily physical typings. In my mind this has a couple of great stones to use.
The new stats are: 107/149/189/73/103/49 Ability: Magic Bounce Type: Bug/Fighting. The bulkiest set for Buzzwole, Sablenite allows it to counter Darkrai as it resists Focus Blast and Dark Pulse. It comfortably takes +2 Thunder, losing a maximum of 69% and OHKOing back with Hammer Arm. Seeing as Thunder is most likely not that common, it makes Buzzwole the best counter to Darkrai currently. But it's not only that. Three of the biggest threats to drop are countered by Buzzwole(Of course, they can run niche sets to minigate this but, but whatever). Regigigas, Kyurem-Black and Darkrai can't touch this absolute monster. Buzzwoles movepool is okay at best. Leech life can be choosen for a powerful stab that recovers some health. Lunge is better when dealing with physical attackers like Regigigas, Primal Groudon (Non-fire stab), Landorus-T, Kyurem-Black and many more. It also means Lopunnite Regigigas cannot Power up Punch versus you. Poison Jab is coverage for Fairy types so they aren't free switch-ins and Earthquake is the same just for steel, poison and fire types. Hammer arm and Superpower are both powerful fighting stabs that can really dent your opponent coming of almost 150 attack. Roost is manditory on pretty much all Buzzwole sets, it's excellent reliable recovery. Toxic can be used to minigate free switch ins into Fairy, ghost and fire types like Primal Groudon, Zygarde, Arcanine and Entei. Bulk up allows you to act as a win-con and allows you to beat Skarmory and Primal Groudon 1v1. Taunt is self explanitory, it means you wont get set up on.
This is self explanitory and more of an honorable mention. Blue Orb Buzzwole with Bulk up and Lunge means you completely counter any offensive Primal Groudon set, run 56 SP.def EVs if you want to guranteed a 3HKO from Thunder. It's really cool though, Pdon doesn't have a ton of counters. Now it has 1.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-486294419
Probably the coolest set. Bug/Steel is an excellent defensive typing with only one resistance, Aggronite lets Buzzwole take on some of the most powerful threats in the metagame, to put it into perspective if you're running Impish Altarianite Dragonite can't even 2HKO with rocks up with Fire punch. Wow. This thing is definitely a monster and I can't wait to use it on the ladder, the bulk is just insane...
Mix and Mega was announced as a rotational ladder(Mix and Mega is Guranteed every third month, otherwise it's AAA/Sketchmons). Because of lack of transperency on my part this was not clear, some of you believed it would be permanent ladder. I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. If you do want Mix and Mega to be a permanent ladder, keep supporting it!
I really want to talk about this absolute beast. Without a doubt one of my favourite pokemon introduced in generation 7. Buzzwoles best stats are its Attack, HP and Defence while the rest are lacking. Bug/Fighting is a meh offensive typing, being resisted by ghost, poison, fairy and flying types - and Buzzwole does not a have a ton to minigate this. Defensively, paired with those stats, Buzzwole becomes an amazing physical wall. Fighting/Bug resists Bug, Dark, Fighting, Grass and Ground. Bar Grass these are primarily physical typings. In my mind this has a couple of great stones to use.
Sablenite (Buzzwole) @ Sablenite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD
Careful Nature
- Leech Life/Lunge/Earthquake/Poison Jab
- Hammer Arm/Super power
- Roost
- Toxic/Bulk Up/Taunt
252 Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Return vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Buzzwole: 174-205 (41.6 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Buzzwole: 165-195 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Thunder vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Buzzwole: 245-289 (58.6 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Regigigas Return vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Buzzwole: 138-163 (33 - 38.9%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Regigigas Return vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Buzzwole: 160-190 (38.2 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD
Careful Nature
- Leech Life/Lunge/Earthquake/Poison Jab
- Hammer Arm/Super power
- Roost
- Toxic/Bulk Up/Taunt
252 Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Return vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Buzzwole: 174-205 (41.6 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Buzzwole: 165-195 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Thunder vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Buzzwole: 245-289 (58.6 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Regigigas Return vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Buzzwole: 138-163 (33 - 38.9%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Regigigas Return vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Buzzwole: 160-190 (38.2 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The new stats are: 107/149/189/73/103/49 Ability: Magic Bounce Type: Bug/Fighting. The bulkiest set for Buzzwole, Sablenite allows it to counter Darkrai as it resists Focus Blast and Dark Pulse. It comfortably takes +2 Thunder, losing a maximum of 69% and OHKOing back with Hammer Arm. Seeing as Thunder is most likely not that common, it makes Buzzwole the best counter to Darkrai currently. But it's not only that. Three of the biggest threats to drop are countered by Buzzwole(Of course, they can run niche sets to minigate this but, but whatever). Regigigas, Kyurem-Black and Darkrai can't touch this absolute monster. Buzzwoles movepool is okay at best. Leech life can be choosen for a powerful stab that recovers some health. Lunge is better when dealing with physical attackers like Regigigas, Primal Groudon (Non-fire stab), Landorus-T, Kyurem-Black and many more. It also means Lopunnite Regigigas cannot Power up Punch versus you. Poison Jab is coverage for Fairy types so they aren't free switch-ins and Earthquake is the same just for steel, poison and fire types. Hammer arm and Superpower are both powerful fighting stabs that can really dent your opponent coming of almost 150 attack. Roost is manditory on pretty much all Buzzwole sets, it's excellent reliable recovery. Toxic can be used to minigate free switch ins into Fairy, ghost and fire types like Primal Groudon, Zygarde, Arcanine and Entei. Bulk up allows you to act as a win-con and allows you to beat Skarmory and Primal Groudon 1v1. Taunt is self explanitory, it means you wont get set up on.
Blue orb (Buzzwole) @ Blue Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Lunge
- Bulk Up
- Roost
- Hammer Arm
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Lunge
- Bulk Up
- Roost
- Hammer Arm
This is self explanitory and more of an honorable mention. Blue Orb Buzzwole with Bulk up and Lunge means you completely counter any offensive Primal Groudon set, run 56 SP.def EVs if you want to guranteed a 3HKO from Thunder. It's really cool though, Pdon doesn't have a ton of counters. Now it has 1.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-486294419
Aggronite (Buzzwole) @ Aggronite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 108 Def / 148 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Roost
- Lunge
- Earthquake
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 108 Def / 148 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Roost
- Lunge
- Earthquake
Probably the coolest set. Bug/Steel is an excellent defensive typing with only one resistance, Aggronite lets Buzzwole take on some of the most powerful threats in the metagame, to put it into perspective if you're running Impish Altarianite Dragonite can't even 2HKO with rocks up with Fire punch. Wow. This thing is definitely a monster and I can't wait to use it on the ladder, the bulk is just insane...
Out of question, will it be challengable when it isn't on ladder?
As for Buzzwole, I can attest to it's effectiveness. The lack of chances to recover means it's easily pressured as a Rai counter, but it's still a great option for any BO/Balance team that struggles with Darkrai, much like P2 does for Greninja. The other two are much less useful RN because they don't check Darkrai, but I have given Aggronite a try and it works as long as you stack other answers like -ate and Tapu Koku. It's only other real issues are fire types like Entei, Levitran, and Primal Groudon.
I'd like to point out that Banetite is a solid option on Buzzwole as well. Banetite grants Buzzwole priority Roost and Taunt, as well as giving it a very meaty base 189 attack. It should also be able to use Diancite pretty effectively, as base 99 defense after the drops isn't terrible and it has some pretty nice coverage options, and base 199 attack is pretty strong. I've found Buzzwole to be surprisingly versatile in what stones it can run, as it has a relatively solid stat spread that can be patched up by a stone of choice, and it has a movepool just barely large enough to contain everything it needs to be effective.
I've been looking into other Pokémon such as Toxapex. It has the 4 main things making a great utility Pokémon: Bulk, defensive typing, utility, and recovery. This thing has Toxic Spikes to poison even Magic Bounce enemies, and Haze to stop all setup sweepers in their tracks. It also has recover, a fantastic Poison/Water typing, and more bulk than Mega Sableye with 50/152/142 bulk, whereas Mega Sableye has 50/125/115 bulk. It may have horrible offenses, and we can't fix those with the loss of Merciless, which provided a decent offensive set towards Non-Poison and Steel types, but it can provide great utility across the match. It resists Pixispeed and Refridgerate, and takes neutral from Aerilate. Really, the only glaring weakness on it is ground, which isn't as omnipotent in MnM as it is in other OMs/Tiers. Toxapex could theoretically run 2 sets: A Mold Breaker set to set up spikes in the face of Magic Bounce, or a Magic Bounce set so that Toxapex doesn't have to worry about Taunt making it become overly passive. However, I'll focus in on the Magic Bounce right now.
Toxapex @ Sablenite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Recover
- Haze
- Toxic
This set gives Toxapex amazing 50/202/192 bulk, which I can show the sturdiness of in a few calculations:
I would give a longer description, but I wrote this in a rush. I know it is a very passive Pokémon, but it can provide immense walling/utility throughout the match with its access to Magic Bounce, recovery, Haze, Toxic Spikes, and Toxic. Against set-up Poison and Steel-types it should use Haze on them so they have no boosts, and switch to an ally that can handle a boosted (Place enemy name here). Limber is the preferred pre-mega ability as you can switch into Thunder Wave without being crippled, and Regenerator/Merciless have little use since they aren't kept when you mega. Toxapex may not be the best wall, due to its passiveness, but it sure knows how to take a hit.
Toxapex @ Sablenite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Recover
- Haze
- Toxic
This set gives Toxapex amazing 50/202/192 bulk, which I can show the sturdiness of in a few calculations:
252+ Atk Diancite Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Sablenite Toxapex: 236-282 (77.8 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO This is a super effective STAB Earthquake off of 205 attack, and it does not kill
252+ Atk Aerilate Pinsirite Dragonite Return vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Sablenite Toxapex: 133-157 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO A 164 attack Aerilate Boosted STAB Return does not 2HKO Toxapex.
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsirite Deoxys-Attack Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Sablenite Toxapex: 115-136 (37.9 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO I know that Deoxys-Attack can't hold a mega stone, but a Pinsirite Deoxys Attack can't 2HKO with Extreme Speed! Sablenite Toxapex has BULK.
252 SpA Pidgeotite Thundurus Thunder vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Sablenite Toxapex: 246-290 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Even a 190 special attack STAB super effective Thunder fails to OHKO it.
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamencite Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Sablenite Toxapex: 127-151 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Pinsirite Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Sablenite Toxapex: 133-157 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Aerilate Pinsirite Genesect Techno Blast vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Sablenite Toxapex: 130-154 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Loppunite Regigigas Return vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Sablenite Toxapex: 129-153 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Pidgeotite Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Sablenite Toxapex: 93-111 (30.6 - 36.6%) -- 60.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Pinsirite Dragonite Return vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Sablenite Toxapex: 133-157 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO A 164 attack Aerilate Boosted STAB Return does not 2HKO Toxapex.
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsirite Deoxys-Attack Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Sablenite Toxapex: 115-136 (37.9 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO I know that Deoxys-Attack can't hold a mega stone, but a Pinsirite Deoxys Attack can't 2HKO with Extreme Speed! Sablenite Toxapex has BULK.
252 SpA Pidgeotite Thundurus Thunder vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Sablenite Toxapex: 246-290 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Even a 190 special attack STAB super effective Thunder fails to OHKO it.
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamencite Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Sablenite Toxapex: 127-151 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Pinsirite Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Sablenite Toxapex: 133-157 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Aerilate Pinsirite Genesect Techno Blast vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Sablenite Toxapex: 130-154 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Loppunite Regigigas Return vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Sablenite Toxapex: 129-153 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Pidgeotite Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Sablenite Toxapex: 93-111 (30.6 - 36.6%) -- 60.6% chance to 3HKO
I would give a longer description, but I wrote this in a rush. I know it is a very passive Pokémon, but it can provide immense walling/utility throughout the match with its access to Magic Bounce, recovery, Haze, Toxic Spikes, and Toxic. Against set-up Poison and Steel-types it should use Haze on them so they have no boosts, and switch to an ally that can handle a boosted (Place enemy name here). Limber is the preferred pre-mega ability as you can switch into Thunder Wave without being crippled, and Regenerator/Merciless have little use since they aren't kept when you mega. Toxapex may not be the best wall, due to its passiveness, but it sure knows how to take a hit.
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I'm confused on what you are trying to prove with these calcs... These things all practically 2HKO it (some with rocks), can you give some neutral damage calcs?
(The EVs on that are pretty optimized; you can decide to run Modest for extra power, too) And the lord said onto the frail bug: U-TURN. And all was wrong with the world, as a huge threat claimed to rip apart a meta with the pure power of momentum....
....Now in a more serious tone, I'd like to propose a near-instant suspect on this monster.
Pheromosa @ Lopunnite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk/4 SpA/252 Spd
Naïve Nature
U-Turn
High Jump Kick
Ice Beam
Substitute/Rapid Spin
Base Stats: 71/197/47/137/37/181
This is an absolute monster, and I've been waiting to talk about it for a while. In standards, you can at least switch into a resistance facing this bug beauty, and sponge up that U-turn damage, or switch into a Ghost to bait out a High Jump Kick, making any priority a lethal blow. But now... you can't do that.
Phemorosa can just hit Ghosts whenever, leaving High Jump Kick with zero immunities. Those stats in particular says it all. A colossal Attack, paired with a nearly unparalleled Speed, even from Choice Scarfed Legendaries, is an incredibly brutal combination. Any Extremespeed means the end for this, but it doesn't even matter when you can make one of the most brutal Volt-Turn cores in existence. Take a gander at these calcs for the sheer power this alone brings to the table.
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Blissey: 576-678 (80.6 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (With 0/252+, it has a chance to OHKO.)
252 Atk Pheromosa U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Blissey: 154-183 (21.5 - 25.6%) -- 0.7% chance to 4HKO
4 SpA Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsirite Landorus-Therian: 340-404 (106.5 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blue Orb Ferrothorn: 348-410 (98.8 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Blue Orb Scizor: 250-295 (72.8 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa U-turn vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Blue Orb Scizor: 67-80 (19.5 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blue Orb Skarmory: 166-196 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altarianite Entei: 139-164 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Toxapex: 63-74 (20.7 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Toxapex: 33-40 (10.8 - 13.1%) -- possible 8HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pidgeotite Gengar: 207-244 (79.9 - 94.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 232-274 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Blue Orb Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 132-156 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 770-908 (272 - 320.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 1464-1728 (517.3 - 610.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (The best move ever)
252 Atk Pheromosa U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Blissey: 154-183 (21.5 - 25.6%) -- 0.7% chance to 4HKO
4 SpA Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsirite Landorus-Therian: 340-404 (106.5 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blue Orb Ferrothorn: 348-410 (98.8 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Blue Orb Scizor: 250-295 (72.8 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa U-turn vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Blue Orb Scizor: 67-80 (19.5 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blue Orb Skarmory: 166-196 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altarianite Entei: 139-164 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Toxapex: 63-74 (20.7 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Toxapex: 33-40 (10.8 - 13.1%) -- possible 8HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pidgeotite Gengar: 207-244 (79.9 - 94.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 232-274 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Blue Orb Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 132-156 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 770-908 (272 - 320.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 1464-1728 (517.3 - 610.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (The best move ever)
So yes... this hits like a fright train, and there's not much you can do about it, as Pheromosa will most likely be paired with an -ate check and another wallbreaker. Xurkitree in particular is terrifying in conjunction with this. I doubt the meta will be too healthy with this running around, so what better to pair its own suspect with a Darkrai suspect?
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Sure. I'll edit my post with some neutral calculations as soon as I can. What I was trying to prove was that it had a large amount of bulk and could tank a ton of hits. But I guess that would be better portrayed by using neutral calcs...
So, as something you seem not to have considered: Fairy, Poison, and Flying types. All three resist both stabs, and ice beam only hits 1 of them. Here's some examples of solid walls, all of which are not fully invested, have multiple other uses and (all but 1) posses instant recovery. 2 even have regen, so you can't even wear them down with uturn.(The EVs on that are pretty optimized; you can decide to run Modest for extra power, too) And the lord said onto the frail bug: U-TURN. And all was wrong with the world, as a huge threat claimed to rip apart a meta with the pure power of momentum....
....Now in a more serious tone, I'd like to propose a near-instant suspect on this monster.
Pheromosa @ Lopunnite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk/4 SpA/252 Spd
Naïve Nature
U-Turn
High Jump Kick
Ice Beam
Substitute/Rapid Spin
Base Stats: 71/197/47/137/37/181
This is an absolute monster, and I've been waiting to talk about it for a while. In standards, you can at least switch into a resistance facing this bug beauty, and sponge up that U-turn damage, or switch into a Ghost to bait out a High Jump Kick, making any priority a lethal blow. But now... you can't do that.
Phemorosa can just hit Ghosts whenever, leaving High Jump Kick with zero immunities. Those stats in particular says it all. A colossal Attack, paired with a nearly unparalleled Speed, even from Choice Scarfed Legendaries, is an incredibly brutal combination. Any Extremespeed means the end for this, but it doesn't even matter when you can make one of the most brutal Volt-Turn cores in existence. Take a gander at these calcs for the sheer power this alone brings to the table.
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Blissey: 576-678 (80.6 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (With 0/252+, it has a chance to OHKO.)
252 Atk Pheromosa U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Blissey: 154-183 (21.5 - 25.6%) -- 0.7% chance to 4HKO
4 SpA Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsirite Landorus-Therian: 340-404 (106.5 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blue Orb Ferrothorn: 348-410 (98.8 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Blue Orb Scizor: 250-295 (72.8 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa U-turn vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Blue Orb Scizor: 67-80 (19.5 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blue Orb Skarmory: 166-196 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altarianite Entei: 139-164 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Toxapex: 63-74 (20.7 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Toxapex: 33-40 (10.8 - 13.1%) -- possible 8HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pidgeotite Gengar: 207-244 (79.9 - 94.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 232-274 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Blue Orb Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 132-156 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 770-908 (272 - 320.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 1464-1728 (517.3 - 610.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (The best move ever)
So yes... this hits like a fright train, and there's not much you can do about it, as Pheromosa will most likely be paired with an -ate check and another wallbreaker. Xurkitree in particular is terrifying in conjunction with this. I doubt the meta will be too healthy with this running around, so what better to pair its own suspect with a Darkrai suspect?
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 159-188 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. Even non physdef Hooh can freely come in on this, and has regenerator to come in on uturn forever. Full physical defense let's you avoid the 3HKO, and leftovers has a shot to avoid the 4HKO.
0 SpA Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 59-70 (14.1 - 16.8%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arceus-Fairy: 123-146 (27.7 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Altarianite Arcanine: 145-171 (37.7 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Toxapex: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (No stone, so any will do)
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 148-174 (33.7 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 59-70 (14.1 - 16.8%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arceus-Fairy: 123-146 (27.7 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Altarianite Arcanine: 145-171 (37.7 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Toxapex: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (No stone, so any will do)
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 148-174 (33.7 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It might be a good mon, but it's weak to -ate, and while it gets 2HKOs it rarely gets OHKOes while being OHKOed in return. It's very prediction reliant, and nowhere near A+ rank - much less broken.
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I gave the nod to Tokapex, which is pretty much the bulkiest of the Poison types, and a pretty solid counter for Pheromosa.
I did completely forget about balance lord Ho-oh, though. You absolutely have to keep Stealth Rocks off of the field, though, or Pheromosa just runs over it regardless. The thing that is really concerning about these calculations is that it can just run Naughty, and turn all of those close 3HKOs into 2HKOs. (Or use a Lucarionite variant, but then you lose victories on Cofagrigus and Gengar, among other Ghost types)
I have no idea if it's broken or not yet. It does certainly beat Darkrai, which is a huge plus in its favor.
What I am concerned about are the momentum cores Pheromosa enables. We have never had a U-turn mon with this kind of power and speed... And it's seems like an incredibly powerful late game cleaner, as well.
I think the moral of the story here is that Defog support is going to be incredibly important... even more than last generation.
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Unfortunately, even hazards and a boosting nature won't help that much.
252+ Atk Diancite Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arceus-Fairy: 135-160 (30.4 - 36.1%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes, fairyceus is a reliable defogger, fairyceus can run more def.
252+ Atk Diancite Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Toxapex: 69-81 (22.6 - 26.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes, Toxapex just laughs, ntm that even if you do chip it down Baneful bunker causes a lot of 50-50's
0 SpA Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lugia: 118-140 (28.3 - 33.6%) -- 98.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery, even breaking Multiscale is't enough.
252+ Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 162-192 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
The momentum might be a better argument, but this is the best uturner, and there are only a few volt switches. I think that for a while at least, it's main benefit is going to be stealing momentum by forcing out Darkrai+discouraging DV/Boosting.
Zephyr Dragon Lord , GoS changed the rules, Diancite Pheromosa is legal, though it has base 1 def/sp. def.
oh god CHANGE IT BACK CHANGE IT BACK GIVE IT 0 DEFENSES OR CHANGE IT BACK
Ah, yes, U-turn. That. Whatever, I'm confident Pidgeotite is a better stone for Pheromosa, especially since Ice Beam is an offensive move and U-turn isn't entirely offensive.(The EVs on that are pretty optimized; you can decide to run Modest for extra power, too) And the lord said onto the frail bug: U-TURN. And all was wrong with the world, as a huge threat claimed to rip apart a meta with the pure power of momentum....
....Now in a more serious tone, I'd like to propose a near-instant suspect on this monster.
Pheromosa @ Lopunnite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk/4 SpA/252 Spd
Naïve Nature
U-Turn
High Jump Kick
Ice Beam
Substitute/Rapid Spin
Base Stats: 71/197/47/137/37/181
This is an absolute monster, and I've been waiting to talk about it for a while. In standards, you can at least switch into a resistance facing this bug beauty, and sponge up that U-turn damage, or switch into a Ghost to bait out a High Jump Kick, making any priority a lethal blow. But now... you can't do that.
Phemorosa can just hit Ghosts whenever, leaving High Jump Kick with zero immunities. Those stats in particular says it all. A colossal Attack, paired with a nearly unparalleled Speed, even from Choice Scarfed Legendaries, is an incredibly brutal combination. Any Extremespeed means the end for this, but it doesn't even matter when you can make one of the most brutal Volt-Turn cores in existence. Take a gander at these calcs for the sheer power this alone brings to the table.
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Blissey: 576-678 (80.6 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (With 0/252+, it has a chance to OHKO.)
252 Atk Pheromosa U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Blissey: 154-183 (21.5 - 25.6%) -- 0.7% chance to 4HKO
4 SpA Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsirite Landorus-Therian: 340-404 (106.5 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blue Orb Ferrothorn: 348-410 (98.8 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Blue Orb Scizor: 250-295 (72.8 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa U-turn vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Blue Orb Scizor: 67-80 (19.5 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blue Orb Skarmory: 166-196 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altarianite Entei: 139-164 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Toxapex: 63-74 (20.7 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Toxapex: 33-40 (10.8 - 13.1%) -- possible 8HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pidgeotite Gengar: 207-244 (79.9 - 94.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 232-274 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Blue Orb Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 132-156 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 770-908 (272 - 320.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 1464-1728 (517.3 - 610.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (The best move ever)
So yes... this hits like a fright train, and there's not much you can do about it, as Pheromosa will most likely be paired with an -ate check and another wallbreaker. Xurkitree in particular is terrifying in conjunction with this. I doubt the meta will be too healthy with this running around, so what better to pair its own suspect with a Darkrai suspect?
I should just wait for everything to settle BEFORE raising a stink here. Expect some sort of message on this soon...
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After contemplating and discussing it with scpinion, we decided not to allow unreleased stones. Allowing unreleased stones would open up the door to other OMs using unreleased stuff, which is not what we want. We want to maintain some resemblance to standard tiers and we don't want to give special treatment to one OM. It sucks, but this is the policy we feel is best.
IMO this is terrible, this ruins the meta completely. Ugh. I understand it but I feel like its impossible to have the meta without it and will be the death of it.
So this is intentional, then. Well, that's a bummer. Though I can see why this is the case, and I can accept this fate.
We'll just have to wait for the other stones like good boys, then. Thanks for the update.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/mega-evolution-in-sun-moon.3587666/ for a list of released and unreleased stones
the big things are that aggronite, altarianite, banettite, blazikenite, cameruptite, diancite, loppunite, and pidgeotite are unreleased (also rip heliolisk)
actually -ate as a whole is on the the decline with this change; only 3 stones remain, and only one grants an innate stab (glalitite, salamencite, and pinsirite)
looks like darkrai may stay a while after all... still doubt it
the big things are that aggronite, altarianite, banettite, blazikenite, cameruptite, diancite, loppunite, and pidgeotite are unreleased (also rip heliolisk)
actually -ate as a whole is on the the decline with this change; only 3 stones remain, and only one grants an innate stab (glalitite, salamencite, and pinsirite)
looks like darkrai may stay a while after all... still doubt it
Hey,
How was your morning? Mine was interesting. The list of released stones are:
Banned Stones
Gengarite (+20 Defense, +40 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Shadow Tag | N/A | N/A)
Kangaskanite (+30 Attack, +20 Defense, +20 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Parental Bond | N/A | +20 kg)
Allowed Stones
Absolite (+20 Attack, +40 Special Attack, +40 Speed | Magic Bounce | N/A | +2 kg)
Aerodactylite (+30 Attack, 20 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Tough Claws | N/A | +20 kg)
Alakazite (+20 Defense,+40 Special Attack, +30 Speed | Trace | N/A | N/A)
Blastoisinite (+20 Attack, +20 Defense, +50 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense | Mega Launcher | N/A | +15.6 kg)
Charizardite X (+46 Attack, +33 Defense, +21 Special Attack | Tough Claws | +
| +20 kg)
Charizardite Y (+20 Attack, +50 Special Attack, +30 Special Defense | Drought | N/A | +10 kg)
Garchompite (+40 Attack, +20 Defense, +40 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, -10 Speed | Sand Force | N/A | N/A)
Glalitite (+40 Attack, +40 Special Attack, +20 Speed | Refrigerate | N/A | +93.7 kg)
Gyaradosite (+30 Attack, +30 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +30 Special Defense | Mold Breaker | +
| +70 kg)
Lucarionite (+35 Attack, +18 Defense, +25 Special Attack, +22 Speed | Adaptability | N/A | +3.5 kg)
Metagrossite (+10 Attack, +20 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +40 Speed | Tough Claws | N/A | +392.9 kg)
Pinsirite (+30 Attack, +20 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Aerilate | +
| +4 kg)
Sablenite (+10 Attack, +50 Defense, +20 Special Attack, +50 Special Defense, -30 Speed | Magic Bounce | N/A | +150 kg)
Salamencite (+10 Attack, +50 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Aerilate | N/A | +10 kg)
Scizorite (+20 Attack, +40 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +10 Speed | Technician | N/A | +7 kg)
Sharpedonite (+20 Attack, +30 Defense, +15 Special Attack, +25 Special Defense, +10 Speed | Strong Jaw | N/A | +41.5 kg)
Slowbronite (+70 Defense, +30 Special Attack | Shell Armor | N/A | +31.5 kg)
Venusaurite (+18 Attack, +40 Defense, +22 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense | Thick Fat | N/A | +55.5 kg)
Blue Orb (+50 Attack, +30 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense | Primordial Sea | N/A | +78 kg)
Red Orb (+30 Attack, +20 Defense, +50 Special Attack | Desolate Land | +
| +49.7 kg)
Credit to Darklatias92 for the list.
I'm not going to lie, this blows. It's going to be hard to pick ourself back together and I don't even know where to start, we've lost a ton of meta-defining stones so I have no clue what the metagame is going to look like. We have to start somewhere and the best place to do so is the ladder. I'd say the two most crucial stones lost are Altarianite and Pidgeotite - they were the reason for a lot of bans made in Mix and Mega. Pidgeotite specifically was the reason Shaymin-Sky was never unbanned, as i'd be far to fast with 100% accurate sleep and Seed flares. So that's unbanned now, yay. It's borderline at most. The Darkrai discussion is also dead now, as it lost Pidgeotite, yay. And -atespeed is significantly nerfed, yay?. I'm going to reshape the Mega Stone/Orb Clause to allow 2 of each stone. With the lack of viable stones this might help a bit, yay.
It'll be alright guys, I'm sure GF will release the stones eventually!
How was your morning? Mine was interesting. The list of released stones are:
Banned Stones
Allowed Stones
Credit to Darklatias92 for the list.
I'm not going to lie, this blows. It's going to be hard to pick ourself back together and I don't even know where to start, we've lost a ton of meta-defining stones so I have no clue what the metagame is going to look like. We have to start somewhere and the best place to do so is the ladder. I'd say the two most crucial stones lost are Altarianite and Pidgeotite - they were the reason for a lot of bans made in Mix and Mega. Pidgeotite specifically was the reason Shaymin-Sky was never unbanned, as i'd be far to fast with 100% accurate sleep and Seed flares. So that's unbanned now, yay. It's borderline at most. The Darkrai discussion is also dead now, as it lost Pidgeotite, yay. And -atespeed is significantly nerfed, yay?. I'm going to reshape the Mega Stone/Orb Clause to allow 2 of each stone. With the lack of viable stones this might help a bit, yay.
It'll be alright guys, I'm sure GF will release the stones eventually!
2 of each stone is interesting yay full ate spam go but it makes sense with the ability clause in numerous other om's
darkrai is still very strong and might still be banworthy, even without dark void's and focus blast's perfect accuracy
skymin.... that's treading a very dangerous line as well, adapt seed flares hurt a whole lot and it can stay unmevo'd if it needs to flinch something
darkrai is still very strong and might still be banworthy, even without dark void's and focus blast's perfect accuracy
skymin.... that's treading a very dangerous line as well, adapt seed flares hurt a whole lot and it can stay unmevo'd if it needs to flinch something
Alright, that does make sense. However, as someone who is/would be a huge proponent of that, please allow me to lay out a counterargument of sorts.
First off, the metagame would be almost unquestionably better with it implemented. Obviously this isn't enough to make it legal, but it does mean that it's something we should do if that's not an issue. Luckily, we have an already established precedent: pokebank tiers. Pokebank is not released, but we are still allowing them to run pokebank Pokemon/Moves in them because we'll be getting it eventually and it's what people want. Obviously we don't know if we'll be getting mega stones, but something could theoretically also happen to cancel the pokebank release, or have it work in ways we don't expect. This whole "using unreleased things for fun" is not a something Mix and Mega will let loose - the cat is already out of the bag on that one.
Furthermore, the
directly states that you can use any stone. Obviously this isn't immutable, but this is a part of the meta's core, in a similar way to how AG is an all inclusive tier. To give a direct example of something similar, Ubers is currently trying to ban STag+Hypnosis, which is opposite our current policy of banning mons rather than complex bans, because they feel it violates the spirit of the sleep clause and would make Ubers a better tier to play. I don't see why we couldn't do the same, to maintain the core of Mix and Mega.concept said:
I'd understand if you decide to keep with the ruling you have decided, but Mix and Mega is a hugely popular metagame, and a lot of that is it's diversity, something I would prefer not to toss away. All I ask, though, that you at least think about it closely. Either way, thank you for reading, and have a nice day!
E: Apparently no
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