M&M Mix and Mega

Question: I played this meta years ago, when it was first starting out, and at the time mons with huge/pure power were able to use medichamite/mawilite- is that no longer the case? I was looking at the OP and it seems to potentially be. If so, i would just like to ask why that is the case? These things were not, at the time, considered broken, and i was just curious if that much has changed since then.

Edit: also, can i just say, someone needs to do more art like the threads banner- thats freaking cool.
 
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kangaskhan-mega.gif


Underrated AF (Kangaskhan-Mega) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Atk / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic / Wish / Ice Punch / Earthquake / Drain Punch / Body Slam / Crunch
- Sucker Punch

I've tested this thing on ladder during the suspect test, and he's really good.
Fake Out to get some chip damages and possibly a free poison turn, Toxic is really useful against Ghost-types and Hippowdon and Sucker Punch + Fake Out lets Kangaskhan clean weakened offensive mons or more bulky threats if Poison is active.
But most importantly, Seismic Toss is an excellent move with Parental Bond, doing a 200HP Hit that destroy a lot of Pokemon on the switch. If an opposing wall has less than 401 HP (no rocks/poison), he's simply out. This thing can tank a Return of Pinsirite Zygarde at +1, so I think it's a good thing. Now i'll continue to crush some teams with Seismic Toss

(to be honest, maybe i want a suspect for Kangaskhan)
 
Vhayle said:
kangaskhan-mega.gif


Underrated AF (Kangaskhan-Mega) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Atk / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic / Wish / Ice Punch / Earthquake / Drain Punch / Body Slam / Crunch
- Sucker Punch

I've tested this thing on ladder during the suspect test, and he's really good.
Fake Out to get some chip damages and possibly a free poison turn, Toxic is really useful against Ghost-types and Hippowdon and Sucker Punch + Fake Out lets Kangaskhan clean weakened offensive mons or more bulky threats if Poison is active.
But most importantly, Seismic Toss is an excellent move with Parental Bond, doing a 200HP Hit that destroy a lot of Pokemon on the switch. If an opposing wall has less than 401 HP (no rocks/poison), he's simply out. This thing can tank a Return of Pinsirite Zygarde at +1, so I think it's a good thing. Now i'll continue to crush some teams with Seismic Toss

(to be honest, maybe i want a suspect for Kangaskhan)
Click to expand...

I’ve never used Kangaskhan, however given it is certainly not considered broken in Ubers even, I doubt (doubt being the keyword here- its certainly possible) that it really would be suspect worthy. Granted, the seismic toss set is really cool, given it allows her to patch up her bulk, since she has to focus less on power, however the same set is already present in Ubers as well, and again is not considered broken at all there, and so I don’t think it would be here either.
 
MaestroDeSWAG said:
I’ve never used Kangaskhan, however given it is certainly not considered broken in Ubers even, I doubt (doubt being the keyword here- its certainly possible) that it really would be suspect worthy. Granted, the seismic toss set is really cool, given it allows her to patch up her bulk, since she has to focus less on power, however the same set is already present in Ubers as well, and again is not considered broken at all there, and so I don’t think it would be here either.
Click to expand...

When I say that I want a suspect on Kangaskhan, i'm joking.
What I really think about Kangaskhan-Mega is that even if Seismic Toss is a great tech, I honestly think that a lot of stallbreakers/powerhouses/utility mons are way more useful than Kangaskhan-Mega depending on what you want him to do. The fact that he can't break Blissey and Zygarde-Complete no matter what move you are using is problematic, especially if you want him to be a Pokémon that can beat walls due to locked damages. For that, you're better off using something like Victini or Keldeo, who can deal more than 200 damages most of the time. Why I use Kangaskhan-Mega is because players has never seen him before, having the advantage of "What he will do ?" and going for a wall that is destroyed by 2X2 Seismic Tosses. After the suspect, I'm sure that I will change him for something like Manaphy to have a solid stallbreaker.

tl;dr: Kangaskhan isn't broken, use something else
 
Mix and Mega Trick Room team:
Cresselia @ Sablenite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Moonlight
- Toxic
- Psychic

Insane bulk can very succesfully pull of trick rooms.

Stakataka @ Heracronite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Blast
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
Has insane def which makes it perfect for switch ins.

Magearna @ Cameruptite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Trick Room
- Flash Cannon
- Fleur Cannon
Very good typing and bulk which can allow it to to setup a trick room. Cameruptite boosts all it's attacks. Volt switch is used to switch out of a mon that u cant hit.
Tapu Bulu @ Altarianite
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
- Swords Dance
- Wood Hammer
- Return
- Superpower
Very strong bulk and attack. This is to counter other tapu's(mostly lele).

Xurkitree @ Blue Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Thunder
- Dazzling Gleam
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Blue orb provides lots of bulk and allows for thunder to be used. Blue orb is used over pidgeotite is because pidgeotite boosts speed. Also blue orb counters red orb which is just as popular

Rampardos @ Charizardite X
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
- Head Smash
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Superpower
Superpowerful wall breaker. Charizardite boosts attack a lot while not boosting speed. Tough claws is the perfect ability cause of rampardos's attacks are contact.
 
kingkong427 said:
Mix and Mega Trick Room team:
Cresselia @ Sablenite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Moonlight
- Toxic
- Psychic

Insane bulk can very succesfully pull of trick rooms.

Stakataka @ Heracronite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Blast
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
Has insane def which makes it perfect for switch ins.

Magearna @ Cameruptite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Trick Room
- Flash Cannon
- Fleur Cannon
Very good typing and bulk which can allow it to to setup a trick room. Cameruptite boosts all it's attacks. Volt switch is used to switch out of a mon that u cant hit.
Tapu Bulu @ Altarianite
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
- Swords Dance
- Wood Hammer
- Return
- Superpower
Very strong bulk and attack. This is to counter other tapu's(mostly lele).

Xurkitree @ Blue Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Thunder
- Dazzling Gleam
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Blue orb provides lots of bulk and allows for thunder to be used. Blue orb is used over pidgeotite is because pidgeotite boosts speed. Also blue orb counters red orb which is just as popular

Rampardos @ Charizardite X
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
- Head Smash
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Superpower
Superpowerful wall breaker. Charizardite boosts attack a lot while not boosting speed. Tough claws is the perfect ability cause of rampardos's attacks are contact.
Click to expand...
While i love tr teams (and this one looks admitedly decent) i think it can be improved:
(click sprites for viewing team)
Stakataka, Cresselia, and Magearna are kept due to how good they make their roles of OTR wallbreaker (Stak and Mage) and tr setter, but the latter's set are changed for: Magearna now has Boltbeam for hitting things like Waterceus, PGoli and Ground mons more reliable, while Lunar Dance and Moonblast are used for keeping its teammates healthy and for being able to touch Dark mons. The new additions here are Blue Orb Golisopod, which is a cool TR wallbreaker that helps to deal with Red Orb users, Gyaradosite Uxie, which is one of the few mons with both Trick Room and SR and Necrozma DM, which helps to deal better with Diancite Lele and can also set its own Trick Room.
 
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Well, we are on time this time with the whole usage stats thing, so let's get down to it.

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2018-01/gen7mixandmega-1760.txt (Basic stats for main ladder)
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2018-01/gen7mixandmegasuspecttest-1760.txt regular (Basic stats for Deoxys-Speed suspect ladder)
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2018-01/moveset/gen7mixandmega-1760.txt moves/checksandcounter/ect (Moveset data for main ladder)
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2018-01/moveset/gen7mixandmegasuspecttest-1760.txt (Moveset data for Deoxys-Speed suspect ladder)
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2018-01/metagame/gen7mixandmegasuspecttest-1760.txt Team Style (Team information for Deoxys-Speed suspect ladder)
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2018-01/metagame/gen7mixandmega-1760.txt Team style (Team information for main ladder)

This is a big and important set of usage data, so use it well. Also, for the first time in US/UM Mix and Mega (and one of the few times otherwise), Zygarde has surpassed Groudon-Primal in usage! ...I'm not sure if this is cause for celebration or not. (I'll also post some thoughts about all these metagame changes later, and man, do I have thoughts on the past month's developments)
 
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Gojiratar said:
While i love tr teams (and this one looks admitedly decent) i think it can be improved:
(click sprites for viewing team)
Stakataka, Cresselia, and Magearna are kept due to how good they make their roles of OTR wallbreaker (Stak and Mage) and tr setter, but the latter's set are changed for: Magearna now has Boltbeam for hitting things like Waterceus, PGoli and Ground mons more reliable, while Lunar Dance and Moonblast are used for keeping its teammates healthy and for being able to touch Dark mons. The new additions here are Blue Orb Golisopod, which is a cool TR wallbreaker that helps to deal with Red Orb users, Gyaradosite Uxie, which is one of the few mons with both Trick Room and SR and Necrozma DM, which helps to deal better with Diancite Lele and can also set its own Trick Room.
Click to expand...

Hey this is pretty cool, glad to see Uxie get some usage, once ran a similar set using Audinite for a Support set, and Fairy Stab.
 
Zephyr Dragon Lord said:
Honestly, I think Darkrai is definitely worth a quick ban. It's a better Gengar in pretty much all regards, and that's a mon that's already in the top rung of the meta.
A Zygarde or Thousand Arrows suspect is pretty likely now, considering using a Steel mon as a wall is less appealing, now that it can hit the levitating ones for at least neutral. Easily the scariest setup sweeper in the current meta.
There's probably a ton more broken threats, but I'll wait until the banlist here settles down a little (which it probably will very quickly), at which point I'll go over every single mega stone. Until then, let me speak about the Ultra Beasts a little.

Nihilego sounds like the easiest Latiasite of our lives to slap on. Then the type becomes pretty solid, actually, resisting the two most popular -ates and granting an EQ immunity. Though Slowbronite would make the physical bulk far more serviceable.

Guzzlord sounds pretty nice with this whole idea, given its gargantuan HP stat. Sablenite is a fantastic option, though Aggronite and Altarianite are worth looks as it changes that double Pixispeed weakness into a neutral hit with the former, and gives it a hard hitting STAB option with the latter. Also, that movepool is huge.

Celesteel simply wants a Blue Orb. It wishes it has Regenerator for this meta, but alas, no healing for you(besides Rest). That physical movepool is incredibly nice, but losing lefties really hurts this mon, even more than it hurts Ferrothorn. It's certainly still usable, but Wish support is mandatory in order to use this well now.

Buzzwole (shoutouts to your avatar, Jajoken) has a few options. It could go for a Blue Orb to round out its bulk and make it hit really hard physically, Aggronite in order to give this an actually good typing, or an -ate stone for sheer wallbreaking potential, Buzzwole can do a lot... in the physical department. It's not going to be taking on Red Orb Raikou in its lifetime.

Pheromosa is painfully obvious. Lopunnite. DONE. Screw missing HJK with Ghost switch-ins. Hit them hard instead. This might be even nastier offensively than Terrakion.

Katarna desperately wants to keep that typing for the sake of defense. Blue Orb is good for the same reason it is on Scizor, Lucarionite is always a good option on these offensive mons, and Lopunnite does change the typing so you are -ate weak (bad), but it also grants a terrifying offensive boost to Sacred Sword and that crazy offense (good).

Xurkitree... is in a really awkward spot. It has tools to use several incredibly potent combinations, but its movepool is very strange to work around here. Its best special Normal move is Round, which is simply heartbreaking. Tri Attack, which does open it up for -ate sets, which are pretty good. Nontherless, it has a few other options. It learns Zap Cannon, so Pidgeotite is a good option for just nuking things with paralysis. Absolite allows it to outspeed a few slower threats better, Diancite does that even better (but I wouldn't recommend it, due to the awful bulk you have remaining) and then the one I personally recommend... Audinite. Yes, Audinite. Xurkitree actually appreciates these boosts greatly, and gives it Dazzling Gleam STAB and a nice defensive type. It works best as a wallbreaker, and Tail Glow even lets it make Blissey cry tears of pain with this or the Pidgeotite set.
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I just think i should throw out that jolteon and alolan raichu get sing or zap cannon, raichu has coverage and better boosting moves but jolteon has better stats so they both have pidgeotite potential
 
augustakira said:
I just think i should throw out that jolteon and alolan raichu get sing or zap cannon, raichu has coverage and better boosting moves but jolteon has better stats so they both have pidgeotite potential
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I would also throw Gengar into the mix. It gets Hypnosis as well (a sing equivalent). It has the highest SpA of the 3, and tied speed with Raichu, but Gengar does lack the electric stab. However, it makes up for it in perfect coverage in Hex and Focus Blast. Hex is also a stab move that, when the opponent is statused via Hypnosis or Zap Cannon, it is a base 130 power move. Not something to scoff at.
 
...Huh, my post from several months ago got quoted. That's quite out there.

Anyways, we've always had quite a few Pidgeotite users out there. The main difference between Gen 6 and 7 in terms of this is that Zap Cannon now has its Generation 2 movepool added in. I think we need a complete list of compatible users that newly obtain the move... Let's go over the list, then.
- Raichu is good... if Sing wasn't an event move. You need to decide between Sing and Zap Cannon here, and that's not great at all. It'a probably better off with Thunder and Sing instead.

- Clefable would be okay, but it cannot learn Soft-Boiled and Zap Cannon in the same set. Thankfully, it can use Sing with that, which might give Clefable a small purpose with Pidgeotite.

- Wigglytuff can also do this, but it prefers bolstering those defenses, anyways. And, well... Cefable also exists.

- Persian is actually pretty good, minus the low Special Attack. It's actually the fastest thing that can use Zap Cannon and Hypnosis... thanks to an issue with Jolteon, which will be covered momentarily. Nasty Plot is also pretty solid, but the general lack of coverage is a shame, It must be normal Persian to pull this off, as another note.

- Alakazam was one of the big winners of getting Zap Cannon. Despite not getting a sleep move, it's very speedy, and is very strong in general, so blasting attackers with new coverage for the psychic wonder, along with paralysis, is something that's highly appreciated.

- As if Slowbro didn't get enough moves, it also gets Zap Cannon from Generation 2. And no, it doesn't get Thunderbolt normally, so we have a Water type with BoltBeam and recovery. That's a pretty good deal for a water type, and certainly a ton of options to utilize.

- Muk... has low Special Attack (like Persian), but nothing else to do with Pidgeotite, and is slow. I would pass.

- Gengar. That Pidgeotite set is already very good, thanks to 130 base speed and a 100% sleep move, and Zap Cannon gives another devastating option. It does get Thunder normally, but ratcheting up the power and paralyzing chance is great. It might also be borderline too powerful, if not for the fact that Shadow Tag was recently banned. This is definitely a threat to keep on the radar.

- Hypno can do all that Gengar can do, but so much slower and less powerful.

- Electrode is now the fastest Zap Cannon user, but not much else of a movepool. Use at your own discretion.

- Weezing, Rhyperior, Blissey, and Kangaskhan are all pretty unremarkable Pidgeotite users, and are better for other purposes.

- Starmie is pretty good as a user, with Hydro Pump, Blizzard, and now Zap Cannon to improve upon Thunder. Not the strongest, but it's faster than Gengar, and has quite the coverage.

- Mr.Mime and Electivire are both reasonable users, but probably have better things to be doing with their stone selection.

- Gyarados is always fun as a special attacker. Gets everything, but sadly too weak to do so much in Mix and Mega.

- Lapras gets STAB Blizzard and Hydro Pump, and has Zap Cannon along with it. Not too bad.

- Poor Jolteon. It can get Zap Cannon, but it is not only incompatible with Sing, but is also locked to Hardy nature with Sing. Yes, that's a thing. It's bad and pretty terrible, so I don't know if I'd bother.

- .....FLAERON GETS THIS? ...Given, it's not very good, but this stands out.

- Snorlax is basically Gyarados in terms of special moves, and also power.

- Zapdos is a good user of the stone. Zap Cannon can get some surprise damage in on something that expects a Defog. Not much else, but doesn't need much else here.

- Dragonite is sadly banned, but would be a pretty cool user.

- Mew could already get this for reasons. XD was a strange game for tutors.

- Lanturn gets STAB Zap Cannon while being a Water-type, but lacks recovery. A bit of wasted potential, but still usable.

- Togekiss can't do too much else with the boosted accuracy, but having another good set in its belt is certainly good. It's also a user naturally good against Ground types, thanks to having Grass coverage, along with a bunch of other options for moves.

- Ambipom isn't using this move, even though it does get Nasty Plot.

- Espeon is also a good user, though Alakazam is a faster and more powerful user overall, along with Gengar.

- In case you wanted to make an even more annoying Umbreon... here you go. Zap Cannon for everyone.

- Slowking is basically Slowbro in terms of moves.. so not much else to say here.

- Mismagius can now decide between Inferno and Zap Cannon. Still no Hypnosis, but you can keep foes guessing, and Nasty Plot helps, if you can find an opportunity. Not as fast as Gengar, but still pretty nice.

- Girafarig is there as a user, I suppose. Zap Cannon is the only move that it can use for it, and is otherwise not too remarkable as a user.

- Dunsparce, Granbull, Ursaring, and Miltank are all not notable for special attacking, and thus not the best users of Zap Cannon.

- Raikou is a solid user... but has a very good Red Orb set. I'd recommend using that instead.
 
Hey, just wanted to see if anyone on here could rate my team. It's just a sort of mixed bag with some setup, a defensive mon, and some attacking bois.

Galvantula @ Diancite
Ability: Compound Eyes
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Thunder Wave
- Bug Buzz
- Thunderbolt

Skarmory (F) @ Sablenite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Toxic
- Roost
- Brave Bird

Bisharp (F) @ Charizardite X
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Brick Break
- X-Scissor
- Poison Jab

Scolipede (F) @ Aggronite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Smart Strike
- X-Scissor
- Earthquake

Gengar @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hypnosis
- Zap Cannon
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast

Naganadel @ Alakazite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Dragon Pulse
- Heat Wave
- Nasty Plot

The general strategy here is to start with Galvantula and set up t-wave & sticky web. I like to toss out t-wave first to test for bouncers. Usually it gets killed off right after this, so I'll put up Gengar or Naganadel & wipe 3-4 mons with them. I haven't really used Bisharp or Scolipede all that much since my special attackers put in so much work, but with Scolipede I'll usually get a speed boost and then use Aggronite for extra bulk/attack.
 
There's a few things I'd like to do with this metagame, and obviously this may be controversial; however, it's just my point of view and not particularly set in stone. Let me clarify, that this does not reflect the views of the council but solely my view on how to make this metagame a lot more enjoyable and uncentralising. I would love discussion on each of these points.

I want to quickban Pidgeotite.
Pidgeotite has proven time and time again to be a problematic Mega Stone. Each time we are faced with the dilemma of one or two problematic users of the stone, and once they are banned, another few rise up and take their place. When Darkrai and Shaymin-Sky were permitted, Xurkitree was honestly considered subpar and not very viable. Nowadays people are crying out for a Xurkitree Suspect Test, when following a ban of that, Genesect and/or Gengar would potentially take their place. Pidgeotite's ability of giving No Guard to any Pokémon allows a myriad of Pokémon to abuse powerful low-accuracy moves. This in conjunction with the added Special Attack boost of 65 just overwhelm a lot of possibly good Pokémon. Removing Pidgeotite would initially impair a lot of Special Attackers; however, they'd just move to Diancite, Lucarionite and Absolite and many of the less broken ones would still be as effective. I was initially hesitant on looking into this stone as banning a stone is much more detrimental than banning a few Pokémon; however, the amount of Pokémon that this Mega Stone can push to the limit is unjustifiable. Pidgeotite is unhealthy for the metagame. A suspect test is unreliable, takes too long and the natural bias would lean towards the stone remaining.

I want to unban Shaymin-Sky.
I want to solely unban Shaymin-Sky following the Pidgeotite quickban. Shaymin-Sky relied solely on Pidgeotite to be classified broken and was average beforehand. Shaymin-Sky can run niche Diancite or Red Orb sets without being overwhelming. Take this in contrast to the other three Pokémon that were banned with a Pidgeotite set post-release. Deoxys-Speed's Gyaradosite set sets hazards every time unless it comes into contact with First Impression Golisopod (lol), which is unmatched by any other Pokémon. It's overcentralising when it comes to suicide leads, its speed tier is unmatched, and additionally there may be another rising offensive set. Darkrai ensures that it relies on a 60/40 before becoming a potent offensive force with Diancite or Absolite. While there is an argument that it isn't strong enough to justify remaining banned, my simple counter-argument is that there's no reason to unban it really. Lastly, Pheromosa, which wasn't banned for its Pidgeotite set but that did help push it over the edge. Its offensive sets were too difficult to manage and again there's no reason to unban it.

This leads in to my next point, I want to be more proactive with Uber Pokémon bans.
Upon Marshadow's release there was hesitation among the council. A few members believed that it wasn't potent enough to justify a quickban (this was a mistake but that's besides the point). When a new Pokémon drops and is Ubers, and makes the metagame overcentralising, can we please be more proactive and quickban that Pokémon. I understand the intent of trying to keep as many Pokémon as possible but in the case of Marshadow or a more recent example Naganadel, there's no real reason to leave them in the metagame.

I want to quickban Naganadel.
This was briefly covered in my last point, but I want to reiterate that there's no real reason to leave this in the metagame. This in addition with the potency of Naganadel and its inability to be reliably checked by any Pokémon defensively makes you question why it remains in the metagame. People are genuinely running Blue Orb Magearna on defensive archetypes, a horrible set, in order to disallow NP/AOA Pidgeotite breaking past, NP Diancite being too overwhelming and Red Orb just using its massively powered STAB. There's no reliable answer to this Pokémon and it shouldn't really see usage. There's one arguably good check and even that gets overwhelmed by many Nasty Plot sets.

I want to suspect test Blissey, if metagame trends follow as expected.
Following the above actions, the next course of action would be to ensure the Stall archetype doesn't really overwhelm the metagame. One of the only real arguments keeping this from being too potent in the current metagame are the common set-up sweepers that can keep it at bay. Once Pidgeotite Xurkitree and Pidgeotite Naganadel are removed, Blissey has a much easier time defending against specially offensive Pokémon. Its defensive capabilities are unmatched by anything and there's even a very limited amount of physical attackers that can surpass it. The only few that really come to mind are Terrakion, SD Kartana, SD Golisopod, Explosion Genesect and a select other really niche ones. These don't even succeed 100% of the time in achieving that feat. I'm arguing that it's the premier specially defensive wall, not that it walls all physical attackers; however, it should be quite simple to see why this Pokémon is problematic.

Again, let me clarify that these are solely my views on how I would like the metagame to be handled. If you agree or disagree with parts of this, please reply to it and let me know your thoughts. Nothing here is being done as of now, nor will it necessarily; however, I feel as if it is the best course of action.
 
Chloe said:
There's a few things I'd like to do with this metagame, and obviously this may be controversial; however, it's just my point of view and not particularly set in stone. Let me clarify, that this does not reflect the views of the council but solely my view on how to make this metagame a lot more enjoyable and uncentralising. I would love discussion on each of these points.

I want to quickban Pidgeotite.
Pidgeotite has proven time and time again to be a problematic Mega Stone. Each time we are faced with the dilemma of one or two problematic users of the stone, and once they are banned, another few rise up and take their place. When Darkrai and Shaymin-Sky were permitted, Xurkitree was honestly considered subpar and not very viable. Nowadays people are crying out for a Xurkitree Suspect Test, when following a ban of that, Genesect and/or Gengar would potentially take their place. Pidgeotite's ability of giving No Guard to any Pokémon allows a myriad of Pokémon to abuse powerful low-accuracy moves. This in conjunction with the added Special Attack boost of 65 just overwhelm a lot of possibly good Pokémon. Removing Pidgeotite would initially impair a lot of Special Attackers; however, they'd just move to Diancite, Lucarionite and Absolite and many of the less broken ones would still be as effective. I was initially hesitant on looking into this stone as banning a stone is much more detrimental than banning a few Pokémon; however, the amount of Pokémon that this Mega Stone can push to the limit is unjustifiable. Pidgeotite is unhealthy for the metagame. A suspect test is unreliable, takes too long and the natural bias would lean towards the stone remaining.

I want to unban Shaymin-Sky.
I want to solely unban Shaymin-Sky following the Pidgeotite quickban. Shaymin-Sky relied solely on Pidgeotite to be classified broken and was average beforehand. Shaymin-Sky can run niche Diancite or Red Orb sets without being overwhelming. Take this in contrast to the other three Pokémon that were banned with a Pidgeotite set post-release. Deoxys-Speed's Gyaradosite set sets hazards every time unless it comes into contact with First Impression Golisopod (lol), which is unmatched by any other Pokémon. It's overcentralising when it comes to suicide leads, its speed tier is unmatched, and additionally there may be another rising offensive set. Darkrai ensures that it relies on a 60/40 before becoming a potent offensive force with Diancite or Absolite. While there is an argument that it isn't strong enough to justify remaining banned, my simple counter-argument is that there's no reason to unban it really. Lastly, Pheromosa, which wasn't banned for its Pidgeotite set but that did help push it over the edge. Its offensive sets were too difficult to manage and again there's no reason to unban it.

This leads in to my next point, I want to be more proactive with Uber Pokémon bans.
Upon Marshadow's release there was hesitation among the council. A few members believed that it wasn't potent enough to justify a quickban (this was a mistake but that's besides the point). When a new Pokémon drops and is Ubers, and makes the metagame overcentralising, can we please be more proactive and quickban that Pokémon. I understand the intent of trying to keep as many Pokémon as possible but in the case of Marshadow or a more recent example Naganadel, there's no real reason to leave them in the metagame.

I want to quickban Naganadel.
This was briefly covered in my last point, but I want to reiterate that there's no real reason to leave this in the metagame. This in addition with the potency of Naganadel and its inability to be reliably checked by any Pokémon defensively makes you question why it remains in the metagame. People are genuinely running Blue Orb Magearna on defensive archetypes, a horrible set, in order to disallow NP/AOA Pidgeotite breaking past, NP Diancite being too overwhelming and Red Orb just using its massively powered STAB. There's no reliable answer to this Pokémon and it shouldn't really see usage. There's one arguably good check and even that gets overwhelmed by many Nasty Plot sets.

I want to suspect test Blissey, if metagame trends follow as expected.
Following the above actions, the next course of action would be to ensure the Stall archetype doesn't really overwhelm the metagame. One of the only real arguments keeping this from being too potent in the current metagame are the common set-up sweepers that can keep it at bay. Once Pidgeotite Xurkitree and Pidgeotite Naganadel are removed, Blissey has a much easier time defending against specially offensive Pokémon. Its defensive capabilities are unmatched by anything and there's even a very limited amount of physical attackers that can surpass it. The only few that really come to mind are Terrakion, SD Kartana, SD Golisopod, Explosion Genesect and a select other really niche ones. These don't even succeed 100% of the time in achieving that feat. I'm arguing that it's the premier specially defensive wall, not that it walls all physical attackers; however, it should be quite simple to see why this Pokémon is problematic.

Again, let me clarify that these are solely my views on how I would like the metagame to be handled. If you agree or disagree with parts of this, please reply to it and let me know your thoughts. Nothing here is being done as of now, nor will it necessarily; however, I feel as if it is the best course of action.
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Quickbanning pidgeotite does not sit well with me. Quickbanning should be reserved for something that has just recently dropped down from a higher tier in regular tiers or in our case something has just been released. Pidgeotite has been allowed in this metagame since its release and its legality has not been in question until recently. If we have really reached the point where there are too many threats that are pushed to or over the limit with said stone then sure Pidgeotite's legality can be put up to question. But please, do not quickban the stone. Give the community a chance to weigh in beyond arguments in a way that is meaningful. I do not believe that bias will skew the results, everyone most likely has used Pidgeotite on a mon at some point or have faced it in a battle, its been around and allowed since gen 6 ORAS for goodness sake. If someone believes that it should go or stay I think that Pidgeotite has been used and experienced in the meta enough that the voters will have a solid response that accurately reflects their view on Pidgeotite. I highly doubt that people will give a vote or opinon based off of bias that we normally see in suspect tests for just one mon that the voter may not have fought or used at all. Also on the taking too long bit, I believe that time should be taken on an issue as big as banning a whole stone outright. This is a big decision and unintentionally making an error in haste on a subject as important as this cannot happen. I trust you to make sound decisions on suspect length and voting requirements so that we get the proper voters and a proper result.

I would be completely alright with Naganadel being quickbanned. Compared to Pidgeotite, Naganadel on the other hand is not as far out of the question in my eyes. It hasn't been around for 2 gens like Pidgeotite has been and has been viewed as a very potent and problematic threat since its release within the past few months. It is incredibly difficult to consistently wall defensively and forces offense to resort to atespeed with the Diancite set. It is far too strong to stay. Same goes for new uber pokemon dropping that are quickly viewed as too much for the meta, I'm fine if we are more proactive with those sorts of bans.

I agree with Shaymin-sky being allowed to return if Pidgeotite does go. An eye should be kept on it just in case it is still too strong even without Pidgeotite in use but it should be given a second chance with its main reason for its ban being removed.

A Blissey suspect could happen later but not until other decisions are made. If Pidgeotite goes the metagame will be upended and it will take time to figure out what is and isn't good/viable. Sure we can make some guesses about what it would be like but we cannot truly know until it actually happens and the metagame has time to settle and readapt. I would prefer if we hold off on opening the Blissey can of worms, or any other cans of worms for that matter, until we make decisions on Pidgeotite and Naganadel. After those two decisions have been made and the metagame has been given time to reshape itself we can make judgments on what should and shouldn't stay.

These are my thoughts on the points you have brought up.
 
Just want to put my points of view on what has been brought up in this thread for discussion.

First off - I wholeheartedly agree with a Pidgeotite quickban. It has already been discussed throughout the 30 pages of this post and I think we can all agree that it is considerably more broken than we all expected it to be. Get this stone out of here.

On second thoughts, I think banning Zap Cannon instead may be the better choice, as it is the paralysis chance from Pokemon like Genesect, Xurkitree and Mew that can make this stone so broken. Pidgeotite Sleep isn't a problem either imo, because of how common Sablenite's usage is and the fact that most MBounce walls can handle them, bar Xurkitree, which I think needs a ban through this method.

However, the next point I do not get. Whilst I can understand why a good few people think what's left of Deoxys-Speed would be broken, I do not understand why unbanning Darkrai would not have a healthy effect on the metagame. Infact, I believe it will make the metagame fresh and interesting. Mix and Mega already suffers from being starved of viable Dark-types thanks to the ubiquity of Altarianite, and the large amount of defensive fairies out there... however, the worst offender for this starvation of Dark-types is by far Magearna. This kind of type starvation actually makes it tough to build around Pokemon such as Arceus-Ghost, a brilliant support forme right now, and it's just going to get better, alongside the typing, especially if you want Blissey suspected. And Darkrai is definitely not broken in the slightest without Pidgeotite - not only is it walled by one of the best Pokemon in the metagame, it is revenged by even more, making it a difficult Pokemon to fit on a team already. I'm also pretty sure it was not broken at all during the metagame where Pidgeotite was not released.

I'm also fine with quickbanning overcentralizing Uber threats. However...

Naganadel, in my opinion, is at least very good, but not quickban worthy. Its Diancite set is the most commonly seen, and whilst this set has blazing speed, it lacks the bulk to be able to break through most specially defensive Magearna, Aggronite Mew and SpDef Dusk Mane. Alongside this, it is easily picked off by priority and is quite easy to play around. With the removal of Pidgeotite, Naganadel will lose a bit of that offensive potency, settling for Lucarionite instead, which still has similar problems to what Diancite does, being walled by SpDef Magearna and Aggronite Mew. However, as this variant cannot be picked off by Extreme Speed, I can see where the problems may occur. The only problem is that this then invites other faster Pokemon in through the help of a pivot like Mew or Magearna and can ruin the utility that Diancite provides. I think that Naganadel has fairly good counterplay as it stands - however, if it were to be the next suspect test, I would not mind.

Onto the final point... but: this is one nomination I heavily disagree with and believe it is more healthy than unhealthy. Blissey may be incredibly tanky, but even the special attackers it might try to stop can bust through it. There are already plenty of physical wallbreakers which have limited counterplay that can break through a supportive backbone - Victini, Terrakion and Keldeo are some of the more noticable wallbreakers. Not to mention the myriad of special attackers that can boost up infront of supportive variants, such as Magearna, Manaphy, Mew - all break through Blissey's titanic defenses rather well. Blissey's passive nature as a wall can really screw it over, as 101 HP Substitutes from the likes of Zygarde and Manaphy can take care of the beast. Calm Mind variants may bypass this restriction but they tend to be vulnerable to physical attackers in even greater integrity, and lose out on the extremely large Wishes that Blissey can usually provide. It may be annoying, it may be centralizing, but it's a core Pokemon of the metagame that has plenty of counterplay. I would rather tone down the pace as to not jump to conclusions, as I seem to have noticed that Mix and Mega is getting rather ban happy since the Shadow Tag suspect.

Other than that, I am happy where MnM goes from here. I do not find anything other than Pidgeotite particularly overcentralizing and hard to deal with.

TL;DR - Ban Zap Cannon, Ban Xurkitree, Suspect Naganadel.
 
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Not that my opinion matters, but I completely agree with the pidgeotite qb idea. I don't think it's competitive, and with so many things getting zap cannon, a 120bp twave is pretty insane and cheap
 
I mean if we're talking about Quickbanning Pidgeynite, I would kind of like to see Zyguarde banned, part of my reasoning being I really, really love the creativity this meta offers, and having a definitive *best* option like Zyguarde around for -ate Speeding, now means that every other pokemon, that has their own individual strengths and weaknesses, is now not viable in comparison. I think slowly moving towards a meta where more then about 25-ish pokemon are considered viable is a good step.

Although I admit, most of the stuff I play is bad for the sake of being fun/unique. :p
 
Just my two cents, but longevity of being legal shouldn't be an argument against making a decision. Pidgeotite seems to have been frequently brought up in not just this thread but also general discussion, if anything it's been a very long time coming. However, I don't know why you wouldn't want to at least re-test everything that was banned primarily because of its use, most recently deoS and so forth..
 
E4 Flint said:
Just my two cents, but longevity of being legal shouldn't be a argument against making a decision. Pidgeotite seems to have been frequently brought up in not just this thread but also general discussion. However, I don't know why you wouldn't want to at least re-test everything that was banned primarily because of its use, most recently deoS and so forth..
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I agree with this for sure. I know we just banned Deo-S, but the Pidgeotite set was definitely the problem. And seeing stuff like Skymin can be really cool moving forward too
 
I also personally don't like Pidgeotite being quickbanned at all. I'd not oppose a suspect at all, but I know what I'm personally voting when that happens. There are definitely some powerful users, and some that make Zap Cannon rather problematic, but with a total of three stones granting Magic Bounce, a missed prediction can be fairly easily capitalized upon, which anyone having their own Gengar be put to sleep by their own Hypnosis can attest to. It is a very powerful stone, but one I feel has some cool creative applications on underutilized Pokemon.

That being said... I see that Genesect and Xurkitree are being complained about, and I can't help but think that Zap Cannon is the actual issue here, with both Genesect and Xurkitree relying on it as one of their main moves. While I did just go over a post going over the new users of the move, it was banned in the past due to a 100% accurate paralysis move causing a real unhealthy play pattern in the tier, with Deoxys-Speed being the main culprit, once again. (Genesect was banned at this point, thanks to -ate sets being more powerful back then). While there is a paralysis nerf in Gen 7 making it so that speed is only halved, the chance of not moving is the same as it always was. The issue could certainly be solved by banning Pidgeotite, we would cause a bunch of other sets to die in the process.

As for the Blissey suspect, I'd not personally be too opposed to it, though it should definitely be after this whole issue of Pidgeotite has settled down. The same would go for a potential look into Zygarde, which may also need to happen at some point...
 
I also feel like MnM could be a little clearer on when the progression from "it's the mon" to "it's the stone" is complete. I understand that MnM has a different focus than other metas since banning a stone holds more weight here than other ones, but as a relative outsider, it always felt kinda obvious that a stone that turns any mon into a great special hitter with perfect acc was always going to the problem. Maybe future suspects can hold polls or something that get a general opinion of the comm on what they feel is the problem (that may or may not affect the suspect at hand itself). Like a reasoning of why did it take 2,3,4 or X mons to be banned and still consider qb basically.
 
Chloe said:
There's a few things I'd like to do with this metagame, and obviously this may be controversial; however, it's just my point of view and not particularly set in stone. Let me clarify, that this does not reflect the views of the council but solely my view on how to make this metagame a lot more enjoyable and uncentralising. I would love discussion on each of these points.

I want to quickban Pidgeotite.
Pidgeotite has proven time and time again to be a problematic Mega Stone. Each time we are faced with the dilemma of one or two problematic users of the stone, and once they are banned, another few rise up and take their place. When Darkrai and Shaymin-Sky were permitted, Xurkitree was honestly considered subpar and not very viable. Nowadays people are crying out for a Xurkitree Suspect Test, when following a ban of that, Genesect and/or Gengar would potentially take their place. Pidgeotite's ability of giving No Guard to any Pokémon allows a myriad of Pokémon to abuse powerful low-accuracy moves. This in conjunction with the added Special Attack boost of 65 just overwhelm a lot of possibly good Pokémon. Removing Pidgeotite would initially impair a lot of Special Attackers; however, they'd just move to Diancite, Lucarionite and Absolite and many of the less broken ones would still be as effective. I was initially hesitant on looking into this stone as banning a stone is much more detrimental than banning a few Pokémon; however, the amount of Pokémon that this Mega Stone can push to the limit is unjustifiable. Pidgeotite is unhealthy for the metagame. A suspect test is unreliable, takes too long and the natural bias would lean towards the stone remaining.

I want to unban Shaymin-Sky.
I want to solely unban Shaymin-Sky following the Pidgeotite quickban. Shaymin-Sky relied solely on Pidgeotite to be classified broken and was average beforehand. Shaymin-Sky can run niche Diancite or Red Orb sets without being overwhelming. Take this in contrast to the other three Pokémon that were banned with a Pidgeotite set post-release. Deoxys-Speed's Gyaradosite set sets hazards every time unless it comes into contact with First Impression Golisopod (lol), which is unmatched by any other Pokémon. It's overcentralising when it comes to suicide leads, its speed tier is unmatched, and additionally there may be another rising offensive set. Darkrai ensures that it relies on a 60/40 before becoming a potent offensive force with Diancite or Absolite. While there is an argument that it isn't strong enough to justify remaining banned, my simple counter-argument is that there's no reason to unban it really. Lastly, Pheromosa, which wasn't banned for its Pidgeotite set but that did help push it over the edge. Its offensive sets were too difficult to manage and again there's no reason to unban it.

This leads in to my next point, I want to be more proactive with Uber Pokémon bans.
Upon Marshadow's release there was hesitation among the council. A few members believed that it wasn't potent enough to justify a quickban (this was a mistake but that's besides the point). When a new Pokémon drops and is Ubers, and makes the metagame overcentralising, can we please be more proactive and quickban that Pokémon. I understand the intent of trying to keep as many Pokémon as possible but in the case of Marshadow or a more recent example Naganadel, there's no real reason to leave them in the metagame.

I want to quickban Naganadel.
This was briefly covered in my last point, but I want to reiterate that there's no real reason to leave this in the metagame. This in addition with the potency of Naganadel and its inability to be reliably checked by any Pokémon defensively makes you question why it remains in the metagame. People are genuinely running Blue Orb Magearna on defensive archetypes, a horrible set, in order to disallow NP/AOA Pidgeotite breaking past, NP Diancite being too overwhelming and Red Orb just using its massively powered STAB. There's no reliable answer to this Pokémon and it shouldn't really see usage. There's one arguably good check and even that gets overwhelmed by many Nasty Plot sets.

I want to suspect test Blissey, if metagame trends follow as expected.
Following the above actions, the next course of action would be to ensure the Stall archetype doesn't really overwhelm the metagame. One of the only real arguments keeping this from being too potent in the current metagame are the common set-up sweepers that can keep it at bay. Once Pidgeotite Xurkitree and Pidgeotite Naganadel are removed, Blissey has a much easier time defending against specially offensive Pokémon. Its defensive capabilities are unmatched by anything and there's even a very limited amount of physical attackers that can surpass it. The only few that really come to mind are Terrakion, SD Kartana, SD Golisopod, Explosion Genesect and a select other really niche ones. These don't even succeed 100% of the time in achieving that feat. I'm arguing that it's the premier specially defensive wall, not that it walls all physical attackers; however, it should be quite simple to see why this Pokémon is problematic.

Again, let me clarify that these are solely my views on how I would like the metagame to be handled. If you agree or disagree with parts of this, please reply to it and let me know your thoughts. Nothing here is being done as of now, nor will it necessarily; however, I feel as if it is the best course of action.
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Ok, to preface this Chloe and before you start rethinking your life choices by the walls of text you just created, I'm just gonna say that I am really happy with the state of MnM right now. I think the council has done a wonderful job at getting this metagame to be as fun as it can be.
However, it's becoming rather stale. As the most powerful attackers and offenders leave the metagame one by one, the ones not deemed worthy to be banned are becoming more and more prevalent such as Magearna, Naganadel and Zygarde and even to an extent Groudon-Primal, Golisopod and Victini, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, just a bit unfun.

With that said, I like the changes. This wouldn't be my usual stance on the ban of Pidgeotite but I really like the effort of shaking things up. There is nothing more exciting than the chaotic nature of an undefined meta with as much potential as Mix and Mega, and this will bring some of it back, except in a controlled, balanced way, which I absolutely love.

What this means is that there are two ways to look at this. Go through with it all or stay as is.

Let's say we change:
Pidgeotite:
Great riddance, will shake up the mategame quite a lot, it's usual abusers will now have to resort to other stones and it also means the come back of a few ubers which are sure to bring back some of the fun.

Shaymin-Sky:
Would love to see this come back, as the sole grass type special attacker and without sleep, this will come back in a rather balanced way with potential to a lot of different sets to fit a lot of different needs. Whether you want a VERY fast threat with Diancite; a fast, bouncy, control sweeper with Absolite; a swithin to Groudon-Primal with Blue Orb; a slower, very hard hitting truck with Cameruptite; a prankster, subseed annoyiance with Banettite, you name it! This will be really interesting.

Darkrai:
If there is reason to unban Shaymin-Sky, then there is absolutely no reason to NOT unban Darkrai. It remains a rather niche special dark type that can hit very hard with stones like Blastoisinite or Red Orb, it will simply not be on the same level as it was with Pidgeotite around. I just really don't understand that reasoning, what makes you revisit all the banned users, unban Shaymin-Sky and not unban Darkrai? I don't oppose a good argument, but you failed to provide one.

Deoxys-Speed:
Yeah, with the Pidgeotite set gone, remains the true almost perfect lead in the Gyaradosite set. It is pretty good and very useful on offense but fails in other bulkier archetypes of teams. It would also keep stall in check as it's the only fast Mold Breaker Taunt user out there. I still ahve mixed feelings on this but it's definitely something to be discussed.

Naganadel:
With the changes going through, I'm completely on-board with Nag going too. It's very fast, very reliable and very splashable. It's not actually broken per se but if the objective is to shake up the meta, this will have a positive impact.

Blissey:
I just quote Chazm here. He said everything that was on my mind.

Uber Bans:
I agree with the effort of being more proactive with the release of Ubers but I don't think they should just be quickbanned on release either. This has probably crossed some people's mind but there's a simple fix to this problem. On release, all pokemon should be allowed to hold a Mega Stone, with the exception of those 680 BST cover legends, and be on an unofficial suspect during a week or two. During this period, the council should engage and encourage the community into using and preparing for these mons, perhaps even a poll to help out. After gathering enough info from the playerbase, act upon it with absolute control.

Let's say we don't change:
If Pidgotite doesn't get banned, there is no reason for Naganadel to go. As I've stated before, it's not broken, just very powerful. Xurkitree could potentially be too troublesome, a suspect would be perfect but nobody's got time for another one, it does need proper support to be viable but I'm kinda neutral on this. Though if Naganadel goes, Xurkitree must go as well.

Both of these options are very much ok and would keep the meta in a balanced state. However, if we do not change, the same old problems and people whinning about Xurk and other Pidg abusers just pale in comparison to the more attractive, fun option.

E: typos
 
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Pidgeotite - Yeah get this out of here. That's what, 2 Pokemon that are perfectly healthy in the metagame and 2 of which are much easier to handle with Pidgeotite gone that have been banned because of it? There is literally nothing competitive about this stone. No matter how long it's been present, it's still a problem and one that needs to be dealt with.

Naganadel - Ok, seriously. Why was this ever legal? This needs to go, there's literally no reason to keep this Pokemon and half of the shit that "walls" is either murked by +2 or a different set or it's just setup bait.

Blissey - Get this thing out of here. All of the Pokemon Chazm listed have separate checks that should always be paired with Blissey (I mean what kind of Blissey is going to even try to wall a Terrakion, Keldeo or a Victini? The mons you listed are yeah things that break it, but that's only 3 Pokemon that lure it still. That's an incredibly small number for a Pokemon that walls over three quarters of the shit on VR. In addition to that, Manaphy has been seeing less and less usage and it's not that hard to see why considering how many mons there are that it can't set up on for fear of being beat. The only Magearna that beats Blissey is CM Split Cameruptite and that's like one of four stones it uses. Mew is uncommon and honestly I'm unsure if it wins. I guess you could? But like, it's still ridiculously broken for what it does and 6-8 Pokemon beating it doesn't make it healthy imo. Also, Primal Groudon beats most of what you listed and it's not a bad idea to put it on the same team as Bliss.

Ubers - Nothing new to say here, I agree.

I'm just gonna take this moment to say that I think the metagame is crazy unhealthy right now with Pokemon like Naganadel, Blissey and Xurkitree legal and I believe action needs to be taken. It's in a better position than where it was when GoS tried to lead it but I think there's still a while to go before it becomes a balanced metagame, it really doesn't have the bans it should have right now.

Also js Terrakion and Keldeo are pretty fucking stupid

e: Actually keep Blissey Gogoat stall needs to survive
 
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