-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
MLB thread
- Thread starter little gk
- Start date
- Status
That is a pretty big statement you just made there. I don't think Cardinals fans feel that way now, nor do I think that they would feel that way at all.
Let's face it: Willie Mays will always be the hero over Bonds in SF, Ted Williams will have no equal in Boston, Jackie Robinson will always be the Dodgers idol, and Babe Ruth will always be known as the best player in the entire sport of baseball no matter what else happens down the road.
There is something with the legends of the past that display more greatness than even the most impressive players in the game today. Players today are unrelatable and exchangable. We will never have a Michael Jordan or a Wayne Gretzky in our life time. The historic superstars like Derek Jeter, David Ortiz, Albert Pujols, and even future star Bryce Harper do not galvanize a crowd like the stars of the past did. Maybe it has to do with the use of preformance enhancing drugs, the rise of Football as Americas sport, the high salaries and biusness like attitude of the players, or the sheer amount of talent in the game compared to past generations. I personally just don't see the baseball greats of now being more celebrated as those greats who played in the past.
That's very arguable given the presence of Barry Bonds. There are many, (myself included) who would say that Bonds in the long run outperformed the Babe.
Of course both sides have extremely valid arguments (the Babe being a pitcher, Bonds being a superstar before he was ever accused of steroids) but its inherent fallacious to claim that Babe Ruth is the best of all time without argument.
I agree buttered toast on SOME players not being as good as the old time greats. Derek Jeter probably is an exception because he has the 3000 hits under his belt and represents the game of baseball that no other person can ever do, with class. Baseball is losing its national pastime title, not having as much attention as it did back in the past. The reason we never see some players even come close to comparing to the greats is some teams have not yet developed players that come to the talent level, but again there are exceptions. Did anyone from the 20s-70s ever think ty cobb's record would EVER be broken? No, but mr hustle astonished america. There is always room for improvement. Unless some player hits career 1000 avg with 1800 homeruns, someone will always surpass it.
when comparing the two, i give Bonds a ton of credit just for playing in the "modern" era of baseball, where pitchers throw harder and stuff like that. Ruth played when the sport wasn't even integrated, so he didn't even play against the best of his generation. of course, he was also a great pitcher. i'd imagine most would say Ruth >>> Bonds because of the whole steroids issue, which is silly to me. Bonds was one of the greatest of all time before his alleged steroid use. after? Barroids was the greatest hitter the sport has ever seen or will see. you couldn't perform better if you were playing in a video game with cheat codes. all of that skill doesn't come with steroids, given its effect on individual players is inconclusive at best.
I can argue that a number of players were as good or slightly better than Babe Ruth, but Barry Bonds is not one of them, and will never be one of them. The fact remains that he used performance enhancing drugs (and lied about it to congress), while Babe got fat on hot dogs and beer and still mashed 714 home runs. Since we don't know when Barry Bonds started using steroids (hint: check out photos of him from his days with the pirates, then check out photos of him with the Giants), we cannot say that any part of his career is valid and drug-free. So while yes, Bonds did "outperform" Babe Ruth, he has an asterisk for a reason.
ps: Hammerin' Hank did it legit too, and Ted Williams lost his best 5 years to WWII, where he was a certified flying ace (at least 5 confirmed kills).
it's generally accepted that Bonds started using steroids during the 1999 season. by then, he had already accumulated 100 career WAR. he was one of the greatest of all time before his alleged use.
even when Barry started using, steroids were not banned by MLB. in fact, teams and the league turned a blind eye to the issue until 2003. Barry shouldn't be punished because he was allowed to use something that was completely legal up (he never tested positive after testing began in 2003, either). meanwhile, steroids effect on an individual are inconclusive at best -- they don't transform you into an awesome hitter, otherwise the era should have had a several dozen players with McGwire/Sosa/Bonds-like performance.
without steroids, Bonds was one of the best of all time and certainly could have been better than Ruth, who didn't even play against the best players of his era. with steroids, Bonds is indisputably the greatest hitter of all time, all with the caveat that we can't know how much steroids actually helped him. whether or not he's better overall than Ruth, who was also a very good pitcher is something that's up to you. i give Barry credit for playing in today's game, which is much tougher than yesteryear's game.
Babe ruth can be considered to be one of the best players ever, but if there was a vote it would not be anonymous. Barry Bonds in my opinion was the best player ever. He took steroids, but that does not affect your skill level. You can say he would not have jacked the 760 something he has, but we will never know. I dont care if he took so much juice he can lift king kong, nobody else would hit a 93 POWER 2-seam down and away pitch from Maduxx, but he probably can, which is contact, not power. When at camp i argued with my friends about him being the best, but everyone suggested not because the steroids. You need skill to hit a curveball or even any pitch, and as far as i know PED does not effect bat speed. Even before he took drugs he still was a power hitter& godly speed. The only player i think can compete is Willie Mays, but thats based off only stats since i was not alive in the 50s/60s to watch him play. To claim someone is the best is like Claiming if the Loch Ness Monster is real, you have never seen them so how would you know? Bonds was so feared that one year his INTENTIONAL walks were in tripple digits. That is one record never to even come close. Normally power threats get 10-20 a year, but teams intentionally walked with the bases loaded because he struck fear in the pitcher. Can anyone here at smogon argue with him being the most feared hitter in the game? Aside from his power numbers, he still was fast and overlooked speed. Also, he accumulated some gold gloves along with that. As others said, Ruth hit HR's against no namers barring the last few years Walter Johnson pitched. Meanwhile Bonds still excelled against Fireballers Randy Johnson with his 96 MPH slider and Smoltz. Back in the day there was no sliders, no curveballs or knuckleballs. Coming to a conclusion, i am not asking you to believe Bonds was the best, but please show evidence why you think the Babe is the best, and it is DEFINITELY not hands down.
definitely not as eloquent as i would have put it but exactly right. before his alleged steroid use, Bonds was an incredible hitter, an amazing base runner, and a legitimate gold glove corner OF. steroids can't teach those skills. steroids can't teach how to have an eye like Bonds did (he had more homers than strikeouts in 2004). they helped him, for sure, but lest we forget, a ton of other hitters used steroids and a ton of pitchers used. and still Bonds towered above the rest of the competition.
Want to congratulate those damn Cubs fans for stealing the best front office man in baseball history. Thought that this nice little image would make you Cubbies happy...
Also would like to give my new GM Charington a shout out. I think he will be a great GM for many, many years to come. I think Ben will have more sucess than Theo did because he is more player orriented (scouting, develepment, free agents). It also helps that all of the sabermetrical philosophies which Epstein created in Boston will continue to be used. I guess in that way, the things that made Theo Epstien great never really left us. Only the bad things like the bad FA signings and the infamous Gorilla Suit did...
I jumped for joy that John Lackey needs to have Tommy John this offseason, meaning that he will likely be gone all of next year. Guess Karma stuck it to him for leaving his wife with cancer...
Finally, I also heard a rumor from an anonymous source that two teams were still Tony La Russa should be fired if the Cards lose. That "bullpen failure" may have just cost them the entire series. He never will though, but I think he deserves it. He kind of just pulled a magagers version of Billy "Right Between His Legs" Buckner yesterday. Not that the Rangers did not deserve to win, but as a manager you NEED to make sure that you have the right guy in the right spot.
Also would like to give my new GM Charington a shout out. I think he will be a great GM for many, many years to come. I think Ben will have more sucess than Theo did because he is more player orriented (scouting, develepment, free agents). It also helps that all of the sabermetrical philosophies which Epstein created in Boston will continue to be used. I guess in that way, the things that made Theo Epstien great never really left us. Only the bad things like the bad FA signings and the infamous Gorilla Suit did...
I jumped for joy that John Lackey needs to have Tommy John this offseason, meaning that he will likely be gone all of next year. Guess Karma stuck it to him for leaving his wife with cancer...
Finally, I also heard a rumor from an anonymous source that two teams were still Tony La Russa should be fired if the Cards lose. That "bullpen failure" may have just cost them the entire series. He never will though, but I think he deserves it. He kind of just pulled a magagers version of Billy "Right Between His Legs" Buckner yesterday. Not that the Rangers did not deserve to win, but as a manager you NEED to make sure that you have the right guy in the right spot.
Extra Innings
Oh my.
Edit: Hamilton is a beast.
Edit2: St. Louis won't die. lol
Oh my.
Edit: Hamilton is a beast.
Edit2: St. Louis won't die. lol
berkmans the man
This game is epic.
GAME 7
Agreed with CK.....why the fuck do you walk Albert when he's being protected by, oh I don't know, the HOTTEST MOTHERFUCKING HITTER IN THE WORLD SERIES. God damn it Ron Washington, fuck you Feliz and fuck you Feldman.......I'm sure some our AAA pitchers could have figured out how to get a single fucking strike to get us the series.
EDIT: Because I'm superstitious and GIF posting has been followed by a win all postseason:
EDIT: Because I'm superstitious and GIF posting has been followed by a win all postseason:
I am not very superstitious, but I have been playing at it with my avatars of players of the other teams...after a game that ridiculous, I think any pretense at luck mattering has to go out the window. After a fuckup of that magnitude, the only way we are winning is if our hitting goes nuts.
- Status