In this thread's earlier times I posted extensively on why it should be banned. You can find my first post here-> Monotype XY - [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]
Oh and in addition with that I present to you another one of my quotes long ago:
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Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]
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Oh and in addition with that I present to you another one of my quotes long ago:
Well duh genesect is broken on steel >_>
After reading your other post. I'd like to know what world you live in where genesect isn't shut down by fire. Sure you can use banded espreed, but band isn't too common from what I see. Douse drive is nice, but a waste of power or speed and is not going to help you in other matchups. Not to mention the sun shuts down douse drive anyway. Using the douse drive just makes it so it's easier to counter for other types that are not fire. Aka balance.
Also, nothing on bug wants to take a hit from anything on Fire. Only Armando, crustle, shuckle, and volc take nuetral damage. And while I can't post calcs while being on a phone atm. I can tell you from experience that none of them like taking a banded entei sacred fire or a charizard y flamethrower. Heck, genesect doesn't even have a way to kill char if running douse drive.
Tl;dr Genesect does not shut down fire in any conceivable way.
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InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
If you switch in something that takes little damage from its attacks, it still takes LO recoil. Here are a few calcs:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 62-74 (17 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 104-125 (28.5 - 34.3%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 94-110 (25.8 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 136-161 (37.3 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 87-103 (24.7 - 29.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 142-169 (40.3 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Greninja Gunk Shot vs. Ferrothorn: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time (rof)
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 129-152 (36.6 - 43.1%) -- 97.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
So if I have either of my two main walls in, they will take <50% from anything LO Greninja does with your set (it obviously does less if it is Scarf). If Mega Venusaur is in, it will Leech Seed it, then Synthesis stall, attacking when possible, getting rid of Greninja in 3-5 turns:
Turn 1: Ice Beam, Leech Seed.
Turn 2: Ice Beam, Synthesis
Turn 3: Ice Beam, Sludge Bomb (does around 70%) or Giga Drain (does around 50%, recovers health)
gg Ninja
If it chooses to Gunk Shot:
Turn 1: Gunk Shot, Leech Seed
Turn 2: Gunk Shot, Synthesis
Turn 3: Gunk Shot, Giga Drain (around 25-30%) or Sludge Bomb (around 30-35%)
Turn 4: Gunk Shot, Synthesis
again, gg Ninja (Leech Seed/LO recoil kills it)
In both scenarios, Mega Venusaur wins. Also, all of this is assuming that it gets max damage rolls every time, and Gunk Shot never misses (lol, if that actually happens in a game I will collapse in laughter. Max damage rolls and no misses, whose luck is that good?). It can also survive one critical hit in the first two turns. The only hope for Ninja is that Gunk Shot hits 2 times, critical hits on both, on its first two tries. rof.
If it comes in on Ferrothorn:
Turn 1: Ice Beam, Gyro Ball
gg Ninja
Or, if you are like me and run Seed/Protect/Knock Off/Power Whip:
Turn 1: Ice Beam, Leech Seed
Turn 2: Protect, Ice Beam (does nothing)
Turn 3: Switch to Mega Venusaur, Ice Beam
Turn 4: Gunk Shot, Synthesis
At this point Mega Venusaur is at 96% health if max damage rolls, no freezehax, and Gunk Shot hits. Greninja is at 20%. Ferrothorn is at around 88% if Ice Beam did max damage.
Turn 5: Gunk Shot, Synthesis
gg Ninja (Synthesis to get back to full health for the next Pokemon, LO/Leech Seed kills it).
So, if it comes in on either of my walls, I win. If it comes in on Breloom, it gets Mach Punched (Jolly has a 75% chance to OHKO, does 95% minimum, so even if it survives the Mach Punch, it still dies to LO recoil, and if it doesn't, you know it isn't LO, and it is weakened. This also means it is OHKOed after Rocks, for people who run Rocks on Cradily or Ferrothorn). If it comes in on Serperior, I switch to Mega Venusaur, Synthesis once or twice, then, Leech Seed/Giga Drain stall. If it comes in on Celebi, lol, I set screens and it does half as much. If it comes in on Rotom-Mow, I switch straight to Mega Venusaur, and do the same thing I did for Serperior. Or, if it is LO Greninja, I do some damage with Volt Switch (I outspeed it because Scarf). I can handle Greninja with Grass. Mega Venusaur especially walls everything Greninja tries, and the relatively rare HP Fire is the only thing that threatens Ferrothorn.
Here are a couple of examples of what I mean:
Greninja uses Extrasensory to kill Gengar. Aegislash comes in and has Shadow Sneak. gg Ninja
Greninja uses Grass Knot to kill Hippo/Gastro. Mamoswine comes in and has Ice Shard. gg Ninja
Greninja uses Ice Beam to kill Hawlucha. Conkeldurr, Infernape, Hitmontop, Breloom, Lucario, or Mega Medicham come in and have Bullet Punch or Mach Punch or Vacuum Wave. gg Ninja
Greninja does have great support, I will give you that, but it kills itself, can be walled, can be revenge killed, and if it is statused it will die quicker. Even if the priority is not SE though, Greninja will still be damaged, and die sooner.
If you want to know, on Flying I Thunder Wave with Prankster Thundy-I and then kill it.
I read that whole thing, and then you said you are only halfway done, RIP in peace my life.
First of all, a few things to point out that really don't need to be explained:
1. Screens from Klefki (none of your calcs have them)
2. Intimidate (again, none of your calcs factor Intimidate into the equation)
3. Healing Wish Gardevoir. This let's it come back and wreak havoc a second time
4. Heal Bell and Wish passing from Gardevoir, Florges, Sylveon, or Togekiss. This cures it and keeps it healthy throughout the match
Now, over 90% of your calcs show how nothing can OHKO Mega Mawile (and then screens gives it double bulk, or Intimidate and screens gives it triple bulk). This let's it set up a Swords Dance and proceed to go ham on everything until it is weakened. At this point, you just switch it out, click Healing Wish and repeat. Almost nothing can survive a double onslaught from Mega Mawile. Sucker Punch is also priority, which at +2 is quite dangerous, and can OHKO lots of Pokemon. Also, you completely forgot about SubPunch Mega Mawile, which is also very dangerous. Saying you haven't played Electric with Mega Diancie and only once with Mega Mawile leads me to think that maybe you'renot that experienced--saying "I've never played this type" isn't a good analysis, or argument for an unban. Then, saying that Fairy vs. Fairy is rare and you shouldn't worry about it is BS. Fairy has 4.7% usage, so once every 20ish battles you will play a Fairy team. By that logic, we should unban Arceus-Rock, because playing Rock is rare, so it doesn't really matter.
To conclude, as most of what you wrote didn't account for Intimidate or for screens from Klefki, which every good Fairy or Steel player will set up before sending in Mega Mawile to sweep, I think most of your calcs are irrelevant. You also ignored its coverage moves, and many of your calcs still proved that Mega Mawile can take a hit to set up SD and then sweep. Then you also ignored the support it gets that pushes it over the top.
Mega Mawile is broken, keep it banned.
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Greninja can't be walled very efficiently if you ask me.
On grass you have mega venusaur and ferrothorn.
If stealth rocks are up than two gunk shots can quite possibly 2hko venusaur. If the player has any idea that you are going into venusaur, which a good player should get the feel for, they can gunk shot once on switch and another afterwards, and nothing megasaur has can kill it in one hit. You can stall it out possibly, but that only works at full health. If the player keeps momentum going you can wear down the walls even a little and be able to kill it.
Ferrothorn is probably a more solid check/counter. There's always the possibility of getting dark pulse flinched and that's just rip. That probably won't happen but it's possible. Again, if the switch is predicted in any sort you can almost kill the ferrothorn, or at least get in some damage, and switch out.
With the example with ghost and ground, you immediately are going +1 pokemon on them because they don't have a switch in
Here's what happens more realistically. I'm using greninja and I'm fighting ground. Well, why not bop something with grass knot. They have no switches and something dies. That alone puts me in a great spot, having taken out a cog in the machine. Now he's free to send in something like mamoswine and revenge kill me.
But wait. I have another option. I can switch out and come back in to ruin your life 5 turns later.
This means everytime you kill something on my team, I can bring in greninja and ruin your day again. Same goes with the aegislash/gengar situation. What if I just went to a wall, waited for you to send out something to deal with it and brought greninja again and kill something else? I'd surely win if I just rinsed and repeated that. It's kind of a problem, and a good player can really abuse it.
The scenarios aren't really relevant if I can just swap out and come back in to kill something another turn. :/
So btwn comp getting stolen and college prep, i sorta forgot to take a look at this thread. Dont really care if my opinion matters or not, but since its the meta i played first almost two years ago back in the conk tours (shit...that was almost two years ago) thought it be nice to post thanks for the bans.
The bans are justifable and im happy they were done with appropriately. Tbt i dont really care if it took a bit as frankly we dont get our own suspect test anyway so its just decisions of getting opinions from everybody and almost ridiculous comprehension of testing (seriously, this many types to test and see how they all work gainst some suspects threats is a bitch in and of itself, hard nough to keep it in check with so much varitability where in others you have a dang good idea of whats gonna pop up) that im just happy it was getting done.
Gallade i admit i think is right but was curious if that woulda brought a Mega medi ban with it but thats for another day. The thing had some fun sets. Was it hi jump fury warrior medi? No but it was able to not rely solely on priority like it did at times. Yes it was the weakest or less easy to pin of the suspects, but the type ban was good i think.
The bans of the two former ubers put a smile on my face. I got mad they got dropped (as DoW can testify) but it was an experiment i guess. We arent repeating it anytime soon, but its nice to know that the people care a bit bout trying to see what can and doesnt work in this meta and whats good for it.
Thats just some retrospect thoughts i guess. Guess i can post my thoughts on the new ones, or guess gren and gross specifically.
These two are intriguing as they themselves have the distinction of being in the current meta while suspected tested themselves (one finished and the other in process of learning where the people lie with it) and makes me wonder how much we can take into effect the reasonings of some OU bannings compared to us. Gren was a centralizing force of the meta as it couod excel with little downside at times, and its movepool varied enough to screw who ever it wished. It can patch up the weaknesses of its type easily enough and is the swiss army knife in your set. Sure its not gonna be doing everything, but its presence alone makes some battles just coming down to how much you gonna risk it doing this and or that when it could really be doing that.
Gross is a smartass computer that thinks it better than everyone and could be evil.
Anyway, if i had to vote or if i had one, i would be tempted for a gren ban with gross. Sable i like the idea of a type ban but not too sure of where. Probably wont be responding back to this thread till new comp but was wanting to write something so i did.
The bans are justifable and im happy they were done with appropriately. Tbt i dont really care if it took a bit as frankly we dont get our own suspect test anyway so its just decisions of getting opinions from everybody and almost ridiculous comprehension of testing (seriously, this many types to test and see how they all work gainst some suspects threats is a bitch in and of itself, hard nough to keep it in check with so much varitability where in others you have a dang good idea of whats gonna pop up) that im just happy it was getting done.
Gallade i admit i think is right but was curious if that woulda brought a Mega medi ban with it but thats for another day. The thing had some fun sets. Was it hi jump fury warrior medi? No but it was able to not rely solely on priority like it did at times. Yes it was the weakest or less easy to pin of the suspects, but the type ban was good i think.
The bans of the two former ubers put a smile on my face. I got mad they got dropped (as DoW can testify) but it was an experiment i guess. We arent repeating it anytime soon, but its nice to know that the people care a bit bout trying to see what can and doesnt work in this meta and whats good for it.
Thats just some retrospect thoughts i guess. Guess i can post my thoughts on the new ones, or guess gren and gross specifically.
These two are intriguing as they themselves have the distinction of being in the current meta while suspected tested themselves (one finished and the other in process of learning where the people lie with it) and makes me wonder how much we can take into effect the reasonings of some OU bannings compared to us. Gren was a centralizing force of the meta as it couod excel with little downside at times, and its movepool varied enough to screw who ever it wished. It can patch up the weaknesses of its type easily enough and is the swiss army knife in your set. Sure its not gonna be doing everything, but its presence alone makes some battles just coming down to how much you gonna risk it doing this and or that when it could really be doing that.
Gross is a smartass computer that thinks it better than everyone and could be evil.
Anyway, if i had to vote or if i had one, i would be tempted for a gren ban with gross. Sable i like the idea of a type ban but not too sure of where. Probably wont be responding back to this thread till new comp but was wanting to write something so i did.
The only problems with the scenarios you pointed out is that any competent player using greninja would promptly switch it out in those scenarios.
Ferrothorn: If its health isn't in kill range for beam or kick and ninja's not running HP fire to resist the gyro/do damage, I can't see the ninja player keeping it in unless there is absolutely no other option.
Mega Venusaur: 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 187-221 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 127-151 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 153-181 (53.4 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I'm not sure why you didn't calc Esensory for Venu. I most certainly keep this move on my ninja (water team) specifically for this dinotoad and its semi-common coverage.
Gengar/Aegi scenario: If ninja used extrasensory and Aegislash switches in IMMEDIATELY it should be very obvious to the ninja player that Aegi's threatening a shadow sneak (I say threatening, because it could ideally use the switch to SD) But Esense isn't the only option here against Gengy.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 207-243 (79.9 - 93.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 251-296 (96.9 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (with SR, it's a guaranteed OHKO)
I don't think I need to calc Dark Pulse, now do I?
Hippo/Gastro: Auto switch, no decent player would keep Greninja in on a mamoswine after KOing something with grassknot
Hawlucha: Extrasensory is yet another viable option on the original threat in this scenario. Also, Shadow Sneak is a very fun move, wouldn't you agree? Unless those mach punches are on scarfed mons, they're not outspeeding. On dark, ninja would most likely switch to sable if a mach punch threatens it and it lacks SS. On water, I'd assume molamola or Bro would be the preferred switches.
Thunderus: So I have to risk sacrificing thundy in order to just paralyze greninja? Alright then; aside from a safe switch, how do you propose I get thundy in safely?
Are we able to skip small talk and quick ban megagross? Just to summarize the arguments for his ban: he has great natural bulk, and a typing that augments to it. He's in an incredible speed tier for this meta, and has an insane amount of coverage moves at his disposal. He gets tough claws, and an onslaught of support from both of his types. Let's not forget that megagross is the talonflame for fairies.
Psychic, however, can abuse megagross so much better than steel. Not only does psychic offer screens, knock off, and status spreaders, but psychic also has the ability to trap and remove/cripple walls with access to shadow tag. Psychic also houses three healing wish users in mew, latias, and jirachi, and a memento user in latios if agility/hone claws megagross is desired.
Here is a replay showing most of the support that the tier offers this monster. You have gothitelle removing the one wall that threatens megagross, and megagross pursuit trapping the one threat to him after slowbro was down. He then proceeds to break two walls with his fantastic coverage moves, gets switched out on a potential scarf thread, and gets it's hp renewed with one of three potential healing wish users.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-210949665
Psychic, however, can abuse megagross so much better than steel. Not only does psychic offer screens, knock off, and status spreaders, but psychic also has the ability to trap and remove/cripple walls with access to shadow tag. Psychic also houses three healing wish users in mew, latias, and jirachi, and a memento user in latios if agility/hone claws megagross is desired.
Here is a replay showing most of the support that the tier offers this monster. You have gothitelle removing the one wall that threatens megagross, and megagross pursuit trapping the one threat to him after slowbro was down. He then proceeds to break two walls with his fantastic coverage moves, gets switched out on a potential scarf thread, and gets it's hp renewed with one of three potential healing wish users.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-210949665
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
In most matches, outside of Fire and Psychic, as well as Flying and Ice to an extent, it is relatively easy for me to keep Ferrothorn (Leech Seed+Protect+Lefties) and Mega Venusaur (Leech Seed+Synthesis+Giga Drain) at full or almost full health. Giga Drain also happens to be SE on Water, so not much there wants to switch in, and give me free healing. Sludge Bomb nails Sap Sipper Azumarill so don't say "Azumarill has Sap Sipper." Also, if you switch out to a wall, then I switch to a wallbreaker, you can't just switch into Greninja. You have to sack your wall, or something else, to bring it in safely, as honestly, Greninja isn't gonna live a hit from a wallbreaker :I If this happens enough times, eventually Greninja is gonna be your last Pokemon. Then I win. Also, I gave scenarios on how to beat Greninja no matter which one of my Pokemon is currently in. And, if you have somehow managed to weaken Mega Venusaur to, let's say around 75% health (the lowest I ever switch it out at, unless I don't need it (which is rare) and keep it for death fodder), I go to Ferrothorn, Protect, Leech Seed, Protect, switch to Mega Venusar, get hit by the Ice Beam, but recover enough health via Leech Seed to Synthesis, and stall you out. If you do switch out, bam, the new Pokemon gets Leech Seeded and stalled out. If you manage to take out both Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur, then gg you played well, and deserve the win. But I'm not going to let that happen easily, unless I fuck up, in which case that's my fault, but if I play good, my walls will last pretty much the whole game, until Breloom or Serperior can clean up. Grass Knot also doesn't kill Garchomp, Landorus, or Nidoking, two of which commonly run Scarf, for your Ground example. All 3 are powerful and not much is really gonna like switching in on those (the exception being Slowbro vs. Garchomp). I know some stuff can switch in, but not repeatedly. Many Pokemon matches are a game of switch and counter switch, doing chip damage along the way until the opposing team is weakened enough for you to finish up, and if you play it right, you will win often. One last point: if Stealth Rocks are up, you have less than 2% chance to 2HKO Mega Venusaur with Gunk Shot:
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 136-161 (37.3 - 44.2%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I don't call that quite possibly. I call that rare and unlucky asf.
Like I said above, if you switch Greninja out, the thing coming in gets attacked or Seeded. I didn't calc Extrasensory because I was using the set All Falls Down said was the best one, as he was who I was responding to. In that scenario, switch to Ferrothorn, scout if LO (it takes recoil) or Choice locked (no recoil). If it is Choice locked, use Leech Seed (it will likely switch, so you get the jump on them), or if it is LO, use Protect to see if it has HP Fire. If it doesn't, use Leech Seed, then Protect, then switch to Mega Venusaur to tank the Ice Beam and Synthesis stall. It can outstall the Extrasensory, as it recovers more health than it loses. If it is HP Fire, switch to Mega Venusaur, then Leech Seed. Then switch to Celebi, who can tank the Extrasensory and the HP Fire (if it has Ice Beam or Gunk Shot, then damn that guy is anti-Grass, holy crap, but you can still tank the Ice Beam, and the Gunk Shot most of the time) and set up Light Screen, then Recover (unless Ice Beam/Gunk Shot) in which case switch to Mega Venusaur or Ferrothorn to complete the stall. Worst case scenario, he has Extrasensory, HP Fire, AND Gunk Shot, to be extremely anti-Grass. Also, Scarf Rotom-Mow outspeeds LO Ninja and Volt Switch hurts, especially as most Mixed Greninjas run negative special defense to get hurt less by priority. Or it burns it, making Gunk Shot do less, and burn+LO+Leech Seed kills it in 3 turns. Sash Breloom has Mach Punch and Spore.
Sure, you can switch out Greninja. Making it take another round of hazard damage. Or you can just switch to Scarf Nidoking, who resists Grass Knot and will threaten your teammates and the Pokemon you bring in. LO or Band Mamoswine is also pretty powerful in its own right, and has Superpower/Icicle Crash for Ninja's dark teammates, and EQ to hurt most of Ninja's Water teammates. This is where Thunderbolt Nidoking shines, with Earth Power for Lanturn, and Sludge Wave for Water/Ground types and Rotom-Wash. Excadrill also happens to outspeed it in Sand and hit like a truck.
Yeah you can Extrasensory or Shadow Sneak, but Gallade has its own Shadow Sneak, and shitloads of Fighting types have Knock Off or Dark Pulse or Sucker Punch. Alomomola and Slowbro (more Slowbro) hate Knock Off, btw, and Mega Sableye, you switch to Guts Heracross or Conkeldurr to tank the burn and nail it.
Yes, I'm saying sack Thundy to paralyze it, I sack Thundy to paralyze a fast threat in at least half of my matches, allowing Lando or Char X to clean up afterwards. See scpinion's post in the Good Cores thread about sacking Swampert to put something to sleep, then cleaning up with another Pokemon. Same premise, really, and you can even get a lucky first turn para, letting you attack it and quite possibly kill it. Greninja will likely come in on a weakened Burd after I killed one of their Pokemon, otherwise, if my Burd is healthy, I will Toxic it (Zapdos) or Thunder Wave it (Togekiss) or Flare Blitz it (Char X) or Iron Head it (Skarmory). If Thundy is already in, great! If it is Landorus though, I will probably have to sack Zapdos or Togekiss to get in Thundy, which can be a problem at times, but I usually save Lando for late game, so it won't come in on Landorus very often (meaning Lando won't be in for it to come in on).
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So you're saying, that no matter what, you always keep your mega venusaur at 100%. Okay man, that makes sense. You know, u-turn and momentum and switching isn't a thing. Say I'm using dark and I'm in on greninja. I went for ice beam trying to kill some random grass or another, and you switch into mega venusaur. Assume I have rocks up, because as far as I know grass doesn't have any prominent prevention or access to rapid spin/defog. So you just took at least 30%. Well, I'm not stupid and I don't want walled and bopped, so I switch to mega sableye because it has magic bounce and I'll bounce any status and eat up any moves. Then you're forced to either let me set up and possibly sweep or switch up. How are you at 100% now? Saying that you're always at 100% isn't realistic. In which case I 2 shot you with gunk shot. rip check.
I'm just saying, both of your checks are exclusive to grass, a type that's SE against greninja, shaky checks, and cost you a ton of momentum for no gain because I can just switch to something that walls you. Those checks aren't readily available to other types, so greninja is still a problem to others. A GOOD greninja user should know when to swap out if they think an aegislash is gonna shadow sneak and kill them -_-
On dark, Mega Sableye and other slow/high def mons can absorb the gyro easier. Sable can bounce the leech seed as well, though this requires the mega activated and since Sable is the other suspect, its probably not the best answer). Water resists gyro and if leechseed threatens the team, sap sipper azu is an answer on bulky/stall water. Ludicolo is another answer. Stalling out Esense on Venusaur can be very risky, it's viable but the flinch chance could easily screw you over.
Bit of a side note: One of the things that made greninja such a threat in OU was that it chooses what it targets, and that's what the rest of the team otherwise struggles with. The things it is left vulnerable to are generally what the rest of the team can handle relatively well. So said worse case scenario is possible, unlikely but possible.
Continuing on, if Rotom (any forme really) is sent out against greninja, it's pretty obvious that it's scarfed and that the ninja user is going to switch. If breloom comes in after gunk, mach will resist and the following gunk shot runs a chance of poison, breaking the sash. Spore can be absorbed on dark with Mandi and water has SS Azu/Ludi.
Both Dark and Water have access to defoggers and/or spinners if I recall correctly. I'm a bit confused about your wording here, it seems to suggest that the user with greninja would switch into Nidoking? Also Nidoking resisting grass knot? It takes pretty nasty damage and ground has no viable clerics or wish passers.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 185-218 (61 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Dark has Umbreon to take what Nido dishes out, as for water hmm. I suppose it depends on whether or not the Nido is scarfed or not; I'm assuming if its coming out against ninja, it is since LO nidos are instantly slaughtered. Bit of a pickle there, I'll admit you have me stumped at that point. By the way, ground types resist poison. I don't see how sludge wave will help against swampert... For mamo, Excadrill's sets become very obvious once its ability is revealed on its first appearance. Water teams do carry raindancers/politoads at times, which can cancel out the sand. Alomomola can also easily be used as a scout thanks to regen.
Fair enough on the gallade, though if gallade's health is low enough the SS ninja could stay in for the kill ideally. Last I checked, alomomola doesn't really care too badly for knock off thanks to regenerator and wish/protect (aka satan); I'll give you slowbro though, there are some knock offs it absolutely cannot take. Guts Heracross? I haven't seen that in months tbh, normally i run into the scarf or mega sets. Has that become more common (genuinely curious)? Conkeldurr? Apologies, but have you seen Mega Sableye's defenses?
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 88-104 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 1.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 76-90 (25 - 29.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Sable's typing doesn't allow conk to heal itself either, it'll need a crit or freeze hax before succumbing to the burn damage (implying of course, it stays in).
Fair enough on the thunderus point. But why would zapdos toxic when it could heatwave after ice beam or discharge for damage + parahax (provided that zapdos lives the beam...)? Unless Togekiss is in kill range with either Ice Beam or Gunk, I don't seen anyone willing to risk paralyzing their ninja. Umbreon, Lanturn, Quag, Swamp incoming to absorb said Twave. As for char X, it can live a hydro pump as long as rocks aren't on the field. Not sure why you would flareblitz in that scenario either way since dragon claw runs a better chance of an OHKO no matter what ninja uses. If ninja used a water move, blitz won't kill unless Xard set up previously.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 198-233 (69.4 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 262-310 (91.9 - 108.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Also same as togekiss, if Xard isnt in kill range (around 40-47%, give or take), ninja's not gonna want to stay on that. And Iron head Skarmory?! Please point out someone other than yourself who runs that, as I've never seen anyone use Iron Head over Brave Bird. Not to mention, Skarmory's special defense is lackluster anyways and dark pulse/insertwatermovehere/HPfire would do similar/more damage either way.
Which Landorus forme are you talking about btw, and is it scarfed? I would assume so, but you never specified. Forgive me if I miss anything as well, as I've not been doing a good job when it comes to sleeping lately...
Lilymoding
formerly Kyosuru Jets
Okay so enough talk about Mega Sableye because as far as I know thats been tabled. The focus is on Greninja and Mega Metagross.
I'm not even gonna start with Greninja. All I ever use is water so I'm a tad biased and can't come up with an actual educated opinion atm.
On the other hand... Mega Metagross is a problem. To be honest I'll do another post about it on Psychic, but for Steel... How about we go through the checklist for banning a pokemon:
1. If a pokemon promotes type based matchups mattering a whole lot more, it will also be banned. (eg Kyurem-W,Skymin)
Okay I've spent WAY too long on this post, next rule:
2. If the pokemon itself is broken by either a) team support or b) natural strength, it will be banned. (eg Mega Slowbro/Mence)
Ok that was quick. Not much to say about the Steel core in general, we all know it's amazing. Last point:
3. If the pokemon forms a deadly core that cannot be beaten by most teams, it will be banned. (eg Aegislash on Steel)
Okay that's all I gotta say. Since I know I probably messed something up somewhere up there, feel free to point out all of the places I fucked up and tell me. thanks plz like and fite the power
I'm not even gonna start with Greninja. All I ever use is water so I'm a tad biased and can't come up with an actual educated opinion atm.
On the other hand... Mega Metagross is a problem. To be honest I'll do another post about it on Psychic, but for Steel... How about we go through the checklist for banning a pokemon:
1. If a pokemon promotes type based matchups mattering a whole lot more, it will also be banned. (eg Kyurem-W,Skymin)
Well first of all, just for anybody who says Fairy can beat Mega Meta because Mega Diancie Earth Power...
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 348-412 (144.3 - 170.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Good luck E Powering from the grave. However there is team support from klefki (On fairy) to put up a reflect, which could help.. but that leads us into point number 2, so we can come back to that.
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 180-214 (56.6 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 176-208 (58.4 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 162-192 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
--Reflect up---
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki through Reflect: 90-107 (28.3 - 33.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
Looks like Klefki has a slight chance.
As for fighting... good luck. If Mega Metagross want's to carry psychic STAB (which to my knowledge I could see being useful on steel teams) you're check is what, Scrafty? Pangoro? Dark Pulse Lucario?? I don't have much experience, but I see this thing EASILY tearing through fighting teams. Oh and as for Terrakion coming in and revenge killing it:
252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 170-202 (56.4 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 464-548 (143.6 - 169.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 206-246 (63.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
if Terrak literally has a scratch on it, it will die to priority if Mega Meta isn't at full health. However, if you are in the wonderful situation where Mega Meta is at below 56.4% and Terrak is at full health, guess what can come right in and save the day? A wonderful little bird that we can discuss later on.
Ice: Do I even need to try. If Ice has problems with scizor than it's gonna have major problems with Mega Metagross, and with Kyurem-White back home it makes matters worse. However, just to amuse you, let me run some calcs on some of Ice's supposed walls.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 248-294 (63.1 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Done. Get it because Ice has no walls. just kidding I better throw some neutral damages in there as well.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 232 HP / 220+ Def Walrein: 169-199 (40.3 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Walrein is EXTREMELY passive, so it isn't going to do anything to mega meta either way.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 256-303 (63.6 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah same with this one.
Electric: Here's a type that I'm more experienced with. I've been playing electric for a while and let me tell you this thing is an absolute, egregious monstrosity of a Pokemon. Literally the only true check would be max defense Zapdos... but even then...
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 190-224 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Still massive damage. At least Zapdos can hurt bad with Heat Wave back right?
4 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 154-182 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It can!!!.... until you realize there's a spider in the background.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 348-412 (144.3 - 170.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Good luck E Powering from the grave. However there is team support from klefki (On fairy) to put up a reflect, which could help.. but that leads us into point number 2, so we can come back to that.
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 180-214 (56.6 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 176-208 (58.4 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 162-192 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
--Reflect up---
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki through Reflect: 90-107 (28.3 - 33.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
Looks like Klefki has a slight chance.
As for fighting... good luck. If Mega Metagross want's to carry psychic STAB (which to my knowledge I could see being useful on steel teams) you're check is what, Scrafty? Pangoro? Dark Pulse Lucario?? I don't have much experience, but I see this thing EASILY tearing through fighting teams. Oh and as for Terrakion coming in and revenge killing it:
252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 170-202 (56.4 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 464-548 (143.6 - 169.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 206-246 (63.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
if Terrak literally has a scratch on it, it will die to priority if Mega Meta isn't at full health. However, if you are in the wonderful situation where Mega Meta is at below 56.4% and Terrak is at full health, guess what can come right in and save the day? A wonderful little bird that we can discuss later on.
Ice: Do I even need to try. If Ice has problems with scizor than it's gonna have major problems with Mega Metagross, and with Kyurem-White back home it makes matters worse. However, just to amuse you, let me run some calcs on some of Ice's supposed walls.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 248-294 (63.1 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Done. Get it because Ice has no walls. just kidding I better throw some neutral damages in there as well.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 232 HP / 220+ Def Walrein: 169-199 (40.3 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Walrein is EXTREMELY passive, so it isn't going to do anything to mega meta either way.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 256-303 (63.6 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah same with this one.
Electric: Here's a type that I'm more experienced with. I've been playing electric for a while and let me tell you this thing is an absolute, egregious monstrosity of a Pokemon. Literally the only true check would be max defense Zapdos... but even then...
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 190-224 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Still massive damage. At least Zapdos can hurt bad with Heat Wave back right?
4 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 154-182 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It can!!!.... until you realize there's a spider in the background.
Okay I've spent WAY too long on this post, next rule:
2. If the pokemon itself is broken by either a) team support or b) natural strength, it will be banned. (eg Mega Slowbro/Mence)
Ohohohoho the infamous steel core. Skarmory and Heatran give Mega Metagross EXCELLENT Team Support for any situation, whether it be defogging away screens or absorbing Fire moves, evading equake (or physical attackers in general for that matter), Hell it even has Doublade if it MUST switch away from a fighting type move. Worried about Dark Pulse? Well if Mega Meta didn't already maim the attacker, Bisharp can eat it up nicely and EASILY Sucker Punch/Iron Head/Knock Off it's way to victory. Also back to the spider in the back, Heatran literally eats everything up special wise (save like specs keldeo) and Skarm can happily take physical hits.
Ok that was quick. Not much to say about the Steel core in general, we all know it's amazing. Last point:
3. If the pokemon forms a deadly core that cannot be beaten by most teams, it will be banned. (eg Aegislash on Steel)
Well I don't really know about being in a defensive core, but what I do know that this thing does have a good amount of bulk to it, and should't be over looked. Overall, I don't see it necessarily infringing on this rule, but who knows maybe someone else sees otherwise
Okay that's all I gotta say. Since I know I probably messed something up somewhere up there, feel free to point out all of the places I fucked up and tell me. thanks plz like and fite the power
Reposting my old post about MegaGross. Still believe it warrants a ban.
Okay, I've noticed an inconsistency with the arguments against Greninja. People keep using Mega Sableye as a reason to ban Greninja. I'm 98.3% sure that Mega Sableye is being banned on dark for reasons of being utterly broken, so it might not be wise to make points with Mega Sableye. Excluding Mega Sableye, dark only got Gunk Shot on Greninja as a real upgrade. Dark wasn't even remotely the top dog pre-ORAS, so I don't see why it would even need a Greninja ban if it only gets a one-move upgrade post-Sablenite ban. The issue with the life orb set is that any scarfed pokemon with a BST speed of 66 or higher outspeeds it, and very few scarf pokemon can't OHKO it, especially now that it runs a mixed nature. I have never been in a game where I was helpless against greninja, regardless of what type I was using. Scarfs outspeed it, it gets worn straight down into priority range fast, and no Mega Sableye would mean that the support just isn't good enough to make it broken. Water's team support is far better when we exclude the easily ban-worthy Mega Sableye, so it might be suspect worthy there. On dark, though, taking into consideration the fact that Mega Sableye is just broken, I'm not feeling the ban.
Lilymoding
formerly Kyosuru Jets
Well I think the fact is that it ISN'T banned yet, and isn't going to be directly discussed until after Greninja and Mega Meta are done, so it's perfectly fine to put it into arguments for banning/not banning a mon.
That's not the thing lol, the reason it's so dangerous that it can come into a wall, on a safe switchin and destroy it providing you have 0 switch ins to this thing, and then go back to it's bulky walls to absorb the hits.
Lilymoding
formerly Kyosuru Jets
Okay I agree with the water core being legitimately ridiculous (I've ran in for a solid year) so it IS suspect worthy there... But remember (@other points) just because Gunk Shot was the only thing it got to help cover weaknesses, that doesn't mean it's all it got. Low kick threatens things out that would otherwise happily switch into it, like Chansey and Ferrothorn, and long story short you end up with one big guessing game for your opponent: does he run this move? If he does I'm fucked if he doesn't I'm good. And unfortunately for them that's a risk they're going to have to take. Say what you want about common sets, but the fact is, with Protean, greninjas set variety is unlimited. Unlike most other pokemon, it isn't restricted due to needing to run STAB. Dark pulse greninja on a dark team isn't needed because ALL of its other moves are stab, same with hydro pump on water. This provides a lot of risky guessing games for your opponent, more than most other mons.
Greninja has a total of about 14 viable, offensive moves at its disposal, and it's not afraid to use any mix and match of them. Added on to that are various support moves such as taunt, spikes, toxic spikes, and haze, while less common, are still sometimes thrown in there if need be. That is a LOT of different combinations, so good luck finding a safe and easy switch.
Now that it can be easily mixed, there are no clear cut counters either. Chansey used to be good, but I've seen taunt more and more, and even more relevant is Low Kick. Now about your whole, easily revenge killed, scenario... You do remember Dark DOES have support, right? Sableye, bulky ttar, umbreon, mandibuzz, all of these things like to eat hits, Ttar less so but sand helps spdef, blah blah. and since you were talking about scarves, it leaves anything to set up on your switch out, or double switch to gren.
This all harkens back to a little old bro named Mega Luc. What was it everyone was always saying? Oh. Unpredictable, and good at whatever it is. You didn't know the set until it revealed it, and by then it was too late. You had to hope you made the right switch. Seem familiar? Mega luc is literally a slightly more restricted but more powerful greninja. While Greninja doesn't pack as big of a punch as mega luc, it's extremely fast and STILL packs a decent amount of firepower, not to mention all of its coverage is always STAB. Also mega luc could get revenge killed by Mach punch too, that doesn't make it not broke .
Also just because water support is better doesn't make dark support not good, it's still good it just doesn't shine a candle on water. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be suspected
tl;dr Greninja is unpredictable, has decent team support on dark, good at whatever it wants to do, not restricted to carry a certain move since everything is STAB, no clear cut counters until it's set is revealed and by then it could be too late. Doesn't NEED mega sab for support,
Suspect Greninja on both types Imo
Very very true. I think a good question arises from this. Do we ban things because of being powerful and versatile to the point that checks and counters aren't revealed until you have played against the same user a few times? I just got done with an official tour and in one of the matches the greninja was banded, the only reason I knew that was because the guy using it mentioned the set to me a few weeks back, so I could throw skarmory in without too much worry because I already knew the set. If I didn't know that I probably would've lost a few mons before I even realized what the correct plays would be.
If this hasn't been clear I would like to reiterate it. There are 3 reasons (there may be more idk) why greninja is good:
- Generally it can do 60ish percent give or take to any pokemon given the right move because of STAB, damaging pokes to the point of KO range is not very difficult to do over the course of the game. Which means it has the ability to pin you if it can KO the pokemon currently out and 2hko the rest of your team because of speed.
- It's moves are in the dark the first time you play the opposing water or dark user, so you really can't switch to an appropriate counter until the game has been played a bit, which may or may not be too late.
- It is at an unholy speed tier. Priority and scarves are typically the only methods of nabbing the little bastard. Switch into TTar, Mandibuzz, umbreon, lanturn, swampert, tentacruel, ect.. you get the point, minimizing hits while smashing back. On that scarf note, if you get stuffed by a check or counter on your attempt to hit it, you have lost the momentum of the revenge kill while greninja waits to strike again.
Keep it or ban it completely, no complex ban.
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It shits all over fighting types. Gren is fast enough than a huge portion of the meta allowing it to either A, outspeed and kill something then still be faster then kill it again or it can be used as a revenge killer, barring scarfers. Scarfers(just like Skymin) do do some work on Gren. Gren is just like the regular OU tier. Its good because of its versatility and its speed. I think that we should just ban Protean if people complain about versatility.
Time to finally share my thoughts on Greninja.
I want to get this out of the way early. For those of you that don't know, I main Water. That said, I care more about the metagame as a whole than whether my favorite type loses it's best Pokemon. Water will be a good type without it. Dark will certainly miss it more, but there are already viable teams that do not use it. My preferences for what type(s) I battle with do not skew my perspective.
I have used Greninja on almost every Water team I have ever built. It is an awesome Pokemon for the Monotype metagame (or any metagame for that matter): awesome ability, awesome movepool and awesome stats. However, I do not think it is broken in Monotype, and I more strongly believe it should not be banned in order to maintain a competitive balance in the metagame.
Why it is not broken:
Why it maintains competitive balance:
This is the most important point for not banning Greninja. The standard Greninja set pressures the most used types. It also tends to struggle with underused types: Electric, Grass, Ice, Poison and Ghost (sometimes).
TL;DR Don't ban Greninja on either type. The most effective methods of defeating it promote competitive/smart play. The types it is currently on are essentially the epitome of what a balanced type should look like in our metagame. Banning it would bolster the other heavily used types, and indirectly harm underused types.
I want to get this out of the way early. For those of you that don't know, I main Water. That said, I care more about the metagame as a whole than whether my favorite type loses it's best Pokemon. Water will be a good type without it. Dark will certainly miss it more, but there are already viable teams that do not use it. My preferences for what type(s) I battle with do not skew my perspective.
I have used Greninja on almost every Water team I have ever built. It is an awesome Pokemon for the Monotype metagame (or any metagame for that matter): awesome ability, awesome movepool and awesome stats. However, I do not think it is broken in Monotype, and I more strongly believe it should not be banned in order to maintain a competitive balance in the metagame.
Why it is not broken:
Nope, Greninja is one of the easiest Pokemon in the metagame to revenge kill. We all know just being able to revenge kill it isn't enough to justify it staying. Although Greninja as an auto-win condition is just fallacy.
One can design their Greninja to destroy specific types. However, it often loses viability in a wide range of other type matchups. Greninja is certainly not the only pokemon in our metagame that can do this.
The discussion on Greninja centers around this point.
Natural Strength: Many people have posted the facts on Greninja, and theory-mon'd about how it's wide movepool makes designing a check/counter nearly impossible. I agree with this statement in OU; it was utterly broken there. However, team-building for Monotype is very different than OU. Greninja only gets 4 moves, and it cannot cover the entire metagame with those 4 moves. Even with AFD's optimal set, you find yourself walled/threatened all too often against the most common walls in Monotype.
Greninja rarely outright OHKO's Pokemon. Instead, you need to have pretty significant amounts of prior damage if you hope to sweep with it. Thus, if you play well and put your Greninja into spots where it can threaten the opponent then it will wreak havoc; but, it can also be challenging to bring in safely against opponents that know what they're doing. Greninja is no different from any other potent offensive threat in this regard.
Team Support: The key point with Greninja is the support that Dark and Water provide. Both have reliable walls, hazard setters, resists/immunities and spinners/defoggers. No one can deny this point. However, having Greninja opens an exploitable weakness to hazards on both Dark and Water teams. LO variants are on a timer from turn 1 and this is exacerbated by hazards. With hazards, LO Greninja takes >20% each time it comes in to attack, while choiced variants can be forced out many times throughout a match. Thus, savvy opponents will set hazards and pressure the spinner/defogger in order to indirectly check Greninja.
As I said above, Greninja doesn't outright OHKO many Pokemon, so when it does get into the match safely, it either gets passed over the hazards again, or takes an attack. Both outcomes are sub-optimal for the Greninja user and, in my experience, routinely happen at the top level of play. Often, this puts Greninja in range of priority attacks, which it must switch out against later in a match, further preventing it from dishing out damage.
Pretty much every type has a viable Pokemon to set some form of hazards. It is up to the player to make the plays to pressure a spinner/defogger.
If you aim to design a single Pokemon to check Greninja, you will lose to it because a good player will use the rest of the Water/Dark team to pressure it. Instead, Greninja is beaten through smart play/team-building, which, for me, is what competitive Pokemon is all about.
Natural Strength: Many people have posted the facts on Greninja, and theory-mon'd about how it's wide movepool makes designing a check/counter nearly impossible. I agree with this statement in OU; it was utterly broken there. However, team-building for Monotype is very different than OU. Greninja only gets 4 moves, and it cannot cover the entire metagame with those 4 moves. Even with AFD's optimal set, you find yourself walled/threatened all too often against the most common walls in Monotype.
Greninja rarely outright OHKO's Pokemon. Instead, you need to have pretty significant amounts of prior damage if you hope to sweep with it. Thus, if you play well and put your Greninja into spots where it can threaten the opponent then it will wreak havoc; but, it can also be challenging to bring in safely against opponents that know what they're doing. Greninja is no different from any other potent offensive threat in this regard.
Team Support: The key point with Greninja is the support that Dark and Water provide. Both have reliable walls, hazard setters, resists/immunities and spinners/defoggers. No one can deny this point. However, having Greninja opens an exploitable weakness to hazards on both Dark and Water teams. LO variants are on a timer from turn 1 and this is exacerbated by hazards. With hazards, LO Greninja takes >20% each time it comes in to attack, while choiced variants can be forced out many times throughout a match. Thus, savvy opponents will set hazards and pressure the spinner/defogger in order to indirectly check Greninja.
As I said above, Greninja doesn't outright OHKO many Pokemon, so when it does get into the match safely, it either gets passed over the hazards again, or takes an attack. Both outcomes are sub-optimal for the Greninja user and, in my experience, routinely happen at the top level of play. Often, this puts Greninja in range of priority attacks, which it must switch out against later in a match, further preventing it from dishing out damage.
Pretty much every type has a viable Pokemon to set some form of hazards. It is up to the player to make the plays to pressure a spinner/defogger.
If you aim to design a single Pokemon to check Greninja, you will lose to it because a good player will use the rest of the Water/Dark team to pressure it. Instead, Greninja is beaten through smart play/team-building, which, for me, is what competitive Pokemon is all about.
Greninja is there for offensive presence. No one is switching it in to take attacks. If so, you're doing your opponent a favor in most scenarios.
Why it maintains competitive balance:
This is the most important point for not banning Greninja. The standard Greninja set pressures the most used types. It also tends to struggle with underused types: Electric, Grass, Ice, Poison and Ghost (sometimes).
Note: I'm excluding November for the discussion below because of a volatile metagame and the relatively small number of battles in that dataset. We only have the first 10 days after the server crash.
With Greninja on ~65% of water teams, Water has had a slight overall advantage against the metagame as a whole since ORAS. It has been +3 in the weighted +/- metric that is along the diagonal of the matchup table on the stats page. Water also has had 6 (or more) type matchups that are "neutral" (45-55% win rate) and only Rock as an "extreme matchup" in its favor. That is pretty much the epitome of balanced/competitive when it comes to Monotype.
With Greninja of ~80% of Dark teams, Dark has had a roughly neutral matchup in the metagame as a whole since ORAS. It was +2 in Dec and -3 in Jan. using the weighted +/- metric. Dark has had 6 (or more) type matchups that are "neutral" and only Ghost as an "extreme matchup" in its favor. Once again, this is the epitome of what balanced/competitive looks like.
With Greninja on ~65% of water teams, Water has had a slight overall advantage against the metagame as a whole since ORAS. It has been +3 in the weighted +/- metric that is along the diagonal of the matchup table on the stats page. Water also has had 6 (or more) type matchups that are "neutral" (45-55% win rate) and only Rock as an "extreme matchup" in its favor. That is pretty much the epitome of balanced/competitive when it comes to Monotype.
With Greninja of ~80% of Dark teams, Dark has had a roughly neutral matchup in the metagame as a whole since ORAS. It was +2 in Dec and -3 in Jan. using the weighted +/- metric. Dark has had 6 (or more) type matchups that are "neutral" and only Ghost as an "extreme matchup" in its favor. Once again, this is the epitome of what balanced/competitive looks like.
Flying hates Greninja. They have to sack a member of their core to kill/cripple it, just switching between Pokemon is a good way to lose. That said, good Flying users can beat Greninja. I've been on that side of it many times.
I'm not in the camp that Flying is a broken type. It has competitive matchups with most of the other heavily used types, no "extreme matchups", and has been getting indirectly nerfed since the beginning of ORAS. That said, banning Greninja will be a HUGE buff to Flying, which is certainly not needed in our current meta.
Greninja offensively checks almost every member of a Psychic team. However, it doesn't OHKO too many of them either so its not too hard to bop/status/cripple it.
Ground has to predict around Hydro Pump and Ice Beam. Obviously if it runs Grass Knot it is gg, but that leaves Greninja with less viability in other matchups.
Greninja doesn't put near as much pressure on Steel teams as it does the other heavily used types, but it can still cause problems. Tbh this matchup wouldn't change too much if Greninja gets banned.
Bug is the perfect example of smart play being the way to beat Greninja. Setup hazards, pressure your opponent's spinner/defogger and it is a quick game. Let the Dark/Water user clear the field and Greninja can wreak havoc.
I'm not in the camp that Flying is a broken type. It has competitive matchups with most of the other heavily used types, no "extreme matchups", and has been getting indirectly nerfed since the beginning of ORAS. That said, banning Greninja will be a HUGE buff to Flying, which is certainly not needed in our current meta.
Greninja offensively checks almost every member of a Psychic team. However, it doesn't OHKO too many of them either so its not too hard to bop/status/cripple it.
Ground has to predict around Hydro Pump and Ice Beam. Obviously if it runs Grass Knot it is gg, but that leaves Greninja with less viability in other matchups.
Greninja doesn't put near as much pressure on Steel teams as it does the other heavily used types, but it can still cause problems. Tbh this matchup wouldn't change too much if Greninja gets banned.
Bug is the perfect example of smart play being the way to beat Greninja. Setup hazards, pressure your opponent's spinner/defogger and it is a quick game. Let the Dark/Water user clear the field and Greninja can wreak havoc.
TL;DR Don't ban Greninja on either type. The most effective methods of defeating it promote competitive/smart play. The types it is currently on are essentially the epitome of what a balanced type should look like in our metagame. Banning it would bolster the other heavily used types, and indirectly harm underused types.
Lilymoding
formerly Kyosuru Jets
This has been brought up literally countless times.
Smogon is going to avoid complex bans as much as possible. It makes the game unnecessarily complicated, and if we banned Protean then Kecleon would lose it too, and Kecleon isn't exactly a threat in OU (unless you play like crazy, and even then...)
Long story short, there is almost no chance of a Complex Ban. I'm sure there was a previous post on why we weren't going to ban just Protean, bringing up the Kecleon reference, I would recommend you seek that out if you still have questions.
Lilymoding
formerly Kyosuru Jets
Well, referring to my earlier post, it's not that easy. While you may have a check/counter for Greninja, how do you know what to bring out to check/counter it? There is no telling what kind of set it is running. Expecting the Ice Beam/Hydro Pump/Dark Pulse/Gunk Shot set? You switch in Ferrothorn into a surprise Low kick.
52 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn: 187-221 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ferrothorn can't live another. By that point, Tyranitar can 2HKO with Earthquake/Crunch, Keldeo can come on on the obvious switch out, etc.
SO now you see it has Low Kick, and it's on a Dark Team so it must have Gunk Shot.. now what else? You switch in Skarmory because it can take the revealed moves, but then surprise Ice Beam/Hydro Pump. What now? Your walls have just been severely damaged all because you had no clue what set he was running. Last time I checked, that's rather noncompetitive, and not fair to the opponent to have to make those guessing games. I could put Genesect into the same boat, but that's a story for another time.
Walled by the most common walls? Low kick hurts Ferrothorn/Chansey, Grass Knot/Gunk Shot ruins the Defensive Water core, Clefable is ruined by Gunk Shot, Klefki is easily withered through time and is too passive to stop it, it's only option being to paralyze it, which Lanturn/Mega Sableye/Umbreon/Mandibuzz would all LOVE to take, being able to avoid a potential Toxic/Burn/Sleep. What's another wall... rock gets decimated by Ice Beam/Low Kick, Skarm died to Ice Beam, Mega Aggron gets destroyed by Hydro Pump, Florges hates Gunk Shot... Ice Beam Gunk Shot Low Kick Grass Knot. I've listed 4 moves, and that alone takes down a massive amount of walls. Not to mention the Team Support to escape threats.
Um isn't the point of a late game sweeper NOT to OHKO everything? It doesn't necessarily to need to OHKO everything to be broken, and after hazards Greninja easily cleans up. Also a lot of things in the meta get ruined by hazards which can't OHKO everything in Ubers, should they go back down? Just because you can get phazed through hazards isn't a reason to keep it in OU. Also, on the point of not being able to OHKO everything, It's AMAZING as a late game sweeper, it does a nice chunk of damage to anything it hits, which is all it needs if it catches you off guard, which it most likely will. If your opponent plays well, Kyurem-W can be beaten, Lugia can be beaten, Mewtwo can be beaten (well that's a stretch..) Anything can be beaten if you play well enough, again not a reason to keep it. The fact is that this thing is way too easy to use effectively, and adds a factor of non-competitive battling, because half the battle is spent decoding the set, and by then all of your walls could be gone or massively damaged.
My point stands, suspect Gren on both types.
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
I recover health via Leech Seed, Synthesis, and Giga Drain, so yes, I am almost always at 100%. Mega Sableye isn't Mega evolved automatically, so it switches in to Leech Seed, and I laugh my ass off. Or, if I'm forced to Synthesis (let's say Ice Beam got a crit), then I use Sludge Bomb until it is poisoned (30% chance, should only take 4ish turns max). Then I stall. Celebi also has screens, so I can set them up whenever I want, or I can bring in Serperior to set up via Leaf Storm faster than it can set up via Calm Mind.
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sableye: 113-134 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sableye: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sableye: 253-300 (83.2 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So, I switch in when it Calm Minds, then I attack, while it Calm Minds, then I attack, and have a decent chance to have killed it by now. Or, now I'm at +4 and nothing wants to switch in. Don't say it can burn me, cuz I have Heal Bell Celebi waiting in the back to come in, set screens, and cure it so it can come back and wreck later if need be.. And I've told you, if Mega Venusaur does get weakened, I go to Ferrothorn, Leech Seed, then switch to Mega Venusaur, so it recovers enough health to live by and can Synthesis. Or bring it in on something weak and recover health then. Hell, I can even Giga Drain, Water is weak to it, and Dark is neutral to it. Btw, I chose grass for a few reasons.
1.) It's considered a weak type
2.) It is weak to HP Fire/Ice Beam/Gunk Shot/Extrasensory (some of Greninja's main moves)
3.) It's what I have been using a lot recently (outside of the core challenges)
Not much walls Mega Venusaur, except Magic Bounce users as its role is to Leech Seed stall everything threatening on the other team. Even then, it can poison Mega Sableye, Espeon, Xatu (lol), and Mega Absol (who uses this anymore, now that Dark has MegaEye?), and Mega Diancie is weak to Giga Drain and can't really hurt me. Yeah, a good Greninja user will switch out, but then Aegislash goes ham on your team with Sacred Sword for Dark and Empoleon, Shadow Ball for Mega Sableye, Slowbro, and Alomomola (and most of Water is hurt by it for that matter), and Shadow Sneak for priority.
I would like to know where I said Gyro Ball in that post. I am pretty sure I never mentioned it once, as I run Power Whip/Leech Seed/Protect/Knock Off on my Ferrothorn. Mostly I'll be spamming Leech Seed/Protect, with Power Whip when I want to hit hard and Knock Off to remove items. If Mega Sableye comes in without being seeded, then I will Protect (from the Will-o-Wisp while it Mega evolves and loses Prankster), then Power Whip (does 25-30%), then switch to Mega Venusaur to poison it via Sludge Bomb, then Giga Drain stall, Synthesising when necessary. Both Sap Sipper Azumarill and Ludicolo are rekt by Sludge Bomb, so I asked you not to mention them <.<
I do have something to ask though: If Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn can outstall Greninja and consistently force it out, then why do we keep talking about what the opponent will send in next? If Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn can consistently wall everything Greninja tries, and I usually beat it, how is that broken?
Another point is that even if Greninja beats your mono, 4mss means it will struggle against another. I admit, all falls down's moves hit a majority of the metagame, but they can't nail everything. And, Greninja rarely gets OHKOs, as even though it gets STAB on everything, it only has base 103 SpA and base 95 Atk. It needs walls to be weakened considerably before it can sweep, which is different from something like Mega Metagross, who can occasionally sweep from right off the bat. If you can keep your walls at reasonable health and they have reliable recovery, Greninja will struggle with them, as it usually only does around 50% to most walls.
I thought I said Earth Power and Sludge Wave, I know Swampert resists poison, just a typo.
GutsCross has 18.5% usage on Bug and 33.5% usage on Fighting. Conkeldurr can 3HKO Mega Sableye after Rocks damage, which Fighting gets up really easily, and it is also an annoyance, as it forces Mega Sableye to Recover more often. And then there is freeze hax, which becomes statistically more likely the longer these two stay in on each other. Also, as soon as MegaEye is dead or switched out, it gets recovery again through a +1 (Guts) STAB Drain Punch. I said Toxic because I don't run Heat Wave anymore, so it really depends on how healthy my other walls are. If they are healthy, I Toxic, otherwise I Discharge for the chip damage. Heat Wave by all means if you have it though. If Togekiss threatens Greninja out, again, how is that bad :I
I think you may have forgot that Protean actually changes your type, and Flare Blitz is a guaranteed OHKO after everything Greninja uses except Hydro Pump:
0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 198-234 (69.4 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO if Hydro Pump, this does more than Flare Blitz
0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 148-175 (51.9 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO it still does a lot, even if Ninja does Hydro, and it only gives Greninja 4 other turns max
0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 297-351 (104.2 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO if anything but Hydro Pump, or Ice Beam (which is double this lol)
I'm not sure why we got around the same numbers when you used 252+ though... Dragon Claw is a guaranteed OHKO after Rocks if full attack, and Flare Blitz does 70-80%, killing it after Rocks and LO recoil most of the time (on Ninja after Hydro Pump). I honestly don't know why everyone uses Brave Bird. Skarmory's main role is to take every physical Rock and Ice move. Why not threaten these types back, instead of running a move that breaks one of its main advantages (Sturdy)? But whatever, I said it cuz that's what I run.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 220-259 (66 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It still tanks one, and attacks back.
8 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 150-177 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Shortening Greninja's life span, if it takes 2 rounds of LO recoil, hazard damage, and that ^ Hell, it could be at like 6% right now if you got a high roll. Hydro Pump also doesn't OHKO it.
Landorus-Incarnate, not Scarfed, I don't need it to be. It's job is to clean up after Togekiss, Zapdos, and Thundurus-Incarnate have Paralyzed everything.
Of course, scpinion made a post before this, that both sniped a couple of my points, and was better :I icrievrytim :( Anyway, I agree with him
Lilymoding
formerly Kyosuru Jets
I'll need to really process this post, but for the time being I can comment on this.
For starters, Gyro Ball common on Ferrothorn to counter Ice, so it IS safe to say things about Gyro Ball. Just because you don't doesn't mean nobody else does.
Also, if you protect 1st turn against the Will-o-wisp, you are at a speed tie with Mega Sableye. There is a very real chance that it will get the Willo off on you before you Power Whip.
You do remember that Sludge Bomb makes the opponet regularly poisoned, right? Like, 12% each turn steady. It's really not that intimidating, and you can't necessarily stall it out with Mega Venu either, since Sab too gets Recover, Calm Mind up, and then apply pressure with Dark Pulse/Willo. A Burned Mega Venusaur is at the same standard as a regularly poisoned Mega Sableye, so it's kind of a stalemate.
Also I'll state it again, Greninja is more of a late game sweeper. Sure, it can't OHKO everything, but it can cause massive damage to whatever it wants to, and until you know it's set, you can't reliably switch out.
Um, this is where Protean comes into play, Low Kick can easily decimate a Ferro switch in, and a Poison Type Greninja can wreck havoc on Mega Venusaur, with a combination of Gunk Shot to take minimal damage from Sludge Bomb/Giga Drain, and then Extrasensory to wrap it up, which is a completely viable moveset. And sure 4MSS will make it struggle against a different mono, but do you play conservatively, not wanting to risk your wall being decimated by the likes of Low Kick or Ice Beam? Or do you take the risk and end up losing a key wall? That's one of the key problems here.
LO Low Kick is a waste of your Greninja in Monotype. You take LO + Iron Barbs damage against Ferrothorn (which is one of the main things you would run Low Kick for), plus all the hazard damage from Steel teams. Empoleon is the other thing to run Low Kick for, and neither Dark, nor Water, are threatened by it. LO Low Kick is also worthless vs Chansey/Porygon2 as it does the same amount of damage as Gunk Shot, costs you a coverage move for the rest of the metagame, and the opponent can just laugh as they click recover/soft boil. Hydro Pump hits Heatran harder. Ice Beam+Hydro Pump beats Rock w/o the need for Low Kick.
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 221-265 (31.3 - 37.6%) -- 85.5% chance to 3HKO
A water core?
Lanturn eats Grass Knot up and will para if it uses Gunk Shot. Tentacruel tanks Grass Knot and Gunk shot too. Same for Empoleon. All can retaliate via status or significant damage.
212+ SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 135-164 (33.6 - 40.8%) -- 37.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 185-218 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
212+ SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 144 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 99-117 (29.3 - 34.7%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Klefki forces Greninja out. Period. Unless they are absolutely forced to, no one is going to let it para Greninja. Klefki can then just set another layer of Spikes or use Reflect/Light Screen. Advantage goes to the Steel or Fairy Team unless you catch it with Hydro Pump on the switch. That probably won't happen b/c clicking Hydro Pump over Gunk Shot is a good way to die to almost every other Fairy in the metagame.
Your hypothetical set is Grass Knot, Low Kick, Ice Beam, Gunk Shot. Psychic teams will love you (hope you run Sharpedo if its a Water team), Steel can just let the Ferro take the 2nd Low Kick and watch as Greninja takes half its own HP away (more if rocky helmet). Normal teams have no trouble with that set. Bug is already a bad matchup for Greninja w/o Rock Slide. Fighting just clicks Mach Punch. The only type from the top 7 in usage you threaten is Flying, which will be prepared to face Greninja.
In OU, I completely agree with you, but identifying the set really isn't so hard in Monotype. Sure, it gets all those awesome moves, but most of the LO Greninja you encounter will have the 3 standard moves of Dark Pulse/Hydro Pump (for Water/Dark teams respectively), Gunk Shot and Ice Beam because that is what helps vs. the most used types. That leaves 1 move for coverage, which really isn't so bad, or different from other offensive threats. On Water teams you should expect it to be Extrasensory b/c of m-Venusaur. On Dark, Grass Knot b/c it struggles with Water teams. If you send in your wall and it gets bopped by something else then just look at the rest of the team and figure out what of the 4 most common moves they can afford to leave off.
Choiced sets are a different story. If you want to run Banded Low Kick, that can work, but you're then choice locked and all of the awesome coverage that Greninja gets goes out the window. Same for scarf Greninja, which is one of the best cleaners in the meta, but you miss out on what makes Greninja so threatening throughout a match.
Alright after to talking with a couple of people and reading this thread a little more, I have come to a new stance. Thanks to scpinion (from his post) and Laxuy (a dark user) I think that we can leave Greninja on Dark (contingent on Mega-Sableye being banned or suspected), but I still think Greninja is too much for water. The reason for leaving it on Dark is I feel as if Dark does not have the support that Water does, and without Greninja Dark is very crippled as a type. It would struggle to beat types that once were easy to it, like Ground and Flying, and it would also lose one of the only checks to Mega Gardevoir, Mega Diancie, and Azumarill that it had.
Water on the other hand, has always been one of the top types in the metagame, and it would remain one of the type types without Greninja. Greninja puts water over the edge in my opinion, as while Greninja can't get everything in one set, you don't know what set its using. When it comes in, it becomes almost a guessing game as to what moves it runs. With Greninja's immense coverage, it can pretty much use any move it wants to freely. If something comes in that resists it, it can just change to another coverage move. Simply saying that Greninja needs more than 4 moves to be truly broken isn't true, because just being able to make the opponent that desperate enough to frantically switch to walls to scout for its set is reason enough for saying that it is unbalanced. 4MSS on Greninja almost does more good for it than bad, because incorrectly scouting for a move can easily change the outcome of the game. Adding on to its ability to freely use whatever move it wants, Water is known to have one of the best defensive cores in the metagame. Pokemon like Slowbro, Empoleon, Lanturn, Swampert, Tentacruel, and Sap Sipper Azumarill make it very easy to weaken the opposing team until it's time for Greninja to late-game clean. It is also easy to switch into these walls because water's defensive core takes on most of the metagame easily. In summary, Greninja's unpredictability in its movesets due to its vast coverage combined with a core that fully backs up Greninja with ease makes Greninja on water teams over the edge.
I understand what was said about if Greninja was gone, the more common types would become even better, which was what I stated prior to being one of my only reasons to keep Greninja. But Water already has a positive or neutral matchup with all the popular types, with Keldeo easily handling Ground and Steel and putting a lot of strain on Flying, and Mega - Gyarados being able to completely decimate Psychic on its own most of the time. In this regard, Greninja doesn't help the competitive balance at all, because Water teams already perform well against the top used types and Greninja just adds the icing on the cake.
As for Greninja's Natural Strength, it is no doubt that with proper coverage, it has no switch ins. While it can't have this perfect coverage in one set, it has the ability to check most of the metagame in one set. It also has the ability to make the opponent completely guess as to what moveset it has, trying to scout with Pokemon that can end up being killed by Greninja. In this regard 4MSS is no valid reason to keep it in the tier, because the opponent has no idea what moveset it has, and it has the ability to be able to 2HKO everything with the right move.
Greninja fails both tests in team support and natural strength, having not only the coverage to 2HKO everything with the right move, but also one of the best damn cores in the metagame, which is too much. I think it deserves a ban on water teams.
Water on the other hand, has always been one of the top types in the metagame, and it would remain one of the type types without Greninja. Greninja puts water over the edge in my opinion, as while Greninja can't get everything in one set, you don't know what set its using. When it comes in, it becomes almost a guessing game as to what moves it runs. With Greninja's immense coverage, it can pretty much use any move it wants to freely. If something comes in that resists it, it can just change to another coverage move. Simply saying that Greninja needs more than 4 moves to be truly broken isn't true, because just being able to make the opponent that desperate enough to frantically switch to walls to scout for its set is reason enough for saying that it is unbalanced. 4MSS on Greninja almost does more good for it than bad, because incorrectly scouting for a move can easily change the outcome of the game. Adding on to its ability to freely use whatever move it wants, Water is known to have one of the best defensive cores in the metagame. Pokemon like Slowbro, Empoleon, Lanturn, Swampert, Tentacruel, and Sap Sipper Azumarill make it very easy to weaken the opposing team until it's time for Greninja to late-game clean. It is also easy to switch into these walls because water's defensive core takes on most of the metagame easily. In summary, Greninja's unpredictability in its movesets due to its vast coverage combined with a core that fully backs up Greninja with ease makes Greninja on water teams over the edge.
I understand what was said about if Greninja was gone, the more common types would become even better, which was what I stated prior to being one of my only reasons to keep Greninja. But Water already has a positive or neutral matchup with all the popular types, with Keldeo easily handling Ground and Steel and putting a lot of strain on Flying, and Mega - Gyarados being able to completely decimate Psychic on its own most of the time. In this regard, Greninja doesn't help the competitive balance at all, because Water teams already perform well against the top used types and Greninja just adds the icing on the cake.
As I said before, Water has one of the best defensive supportive cores. It has two amazing stealth rock users, three fantastic hazard removers, Lanturn for an electric immunity, and Empoleon / Sap Sipper Azumarill / Tentacruel for a Grass resistance/immunity (now, with Shaymin-Sky gone, I find almost all of the former grass users to have to quit using Grass, boosting Water even more). It also has Slowbro, a Pokemon that can completely wall types like Ground, Fighting, Steel, and Dragon by itself: Azumarill, a Pokemon blessed with a typing that Water craves: and Gyarados, a Pokemon that can be one of the most defensive Pokemon or one of the most dangeorus sweepers in the metagame.
As for Greninja's Natural Strength, it is no doubt that with proper coverage, it has no switch ins. While it can't have this perfect coverage in one set, it has the ability to check most of the metagame in one set. It also has the ability to make the opponent completely guess as to what moveset it has, trying to scout with Pokemon that can end up being killed by Greninja. In this regard 4MSS is no valid reason to keep it in the tier, because the opponent has no idea what moveset it has, and it has the ability to be able to 2HKO everything with the right move.
Greninja fails both tests in team support and natural strength, having not only the coverage to 2HKO everything with the right move, but also one of the best damn cores in the metagame, which is too much. I think it deserves a ban on water teams.
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