Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

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I encourage anyone who is arguing that Mismagius is viable to find one high ladder Ghost user that uses Mismagius on their primary team. If you can find even one person that fits that description, I will admit that Ghost has access to a viable Heal Bell user. Until you find that person, I am adamant that Mismagius IS NOT viable on Ghost teams and it's simply not worth using just to have Heal Bell. I've tried it. It's not worth giving up another, more important member of your team.
 
I encourage anyone who is arguing that Mismagius is viable to find one high ladder Ghost user that uses Mismagius on their primary team. If you can find even one person that fits that description, I will admit that Ghost has access to a viable Heal Bell user. Until you find that person, I am adamant that Mismagius IS NOT viable on Ghost teams and it's simply not worth using just to have Heal Bell. I've tried it. It's not worth giving up another, more important member of your team.

Did I call it viable? I just corrected someone by saying that it did exist.
 
Why should we even unban Talonflame at all just to benefit one monotype and have it hurt many others? Zarif you mentioned earlier that we are trying to save our own types by netting other types. But that's not the case tbh.

Talonflame is very deadly with Gale Wings giving it priority and STAB Brave Bird sweeping through most Mono Grass teams and fighting ( with the exception of Cradily and Terrakion being 2 Hits ). Why would you even think about trying to benefit one monotype by getting rid of what 3, 4, possibly 5 monotypes in the process? You also get STAB Flare Blitz sweeping through most ice teams, and grass teams. You'll give fairy types more difficulty considering the fact that Talonflame resists fairy. Also you'll be giving Talonflame to put a huge dent in Steel types and resists steel types as well. Not to mention that its immune to ground unless roost. I already have enough trouble as it is against mono fire when using steel. You're just adding more fuel to the fire trying to downgrade other monotypes just to benefit 1 type alone. That's why it needs to be useless against fighting, ground, rock or whatever to keep things balance and efficient. Even if you're scarfed, Talonflame still has priority with Brave Bird. Think outside the box of what would happen if Talonflame is unbanned. I see fire more usable and seeing other monos less useable.

Idk it feels like some of those replays, were all due to just hax though after watching the one with Grass mono.
You just want fire mono to provide more use when they're already useful enough. It was fair that Talonflame should be banned from this format.

Alright just going to leave this here.

+Lucina09: I didn't realize how well Grass can do against Fire tbh.

+Lucina09: I'm not a pro but I solemnly underestimated grass

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-200766744

Also with your whole Talk about Talonflame resisting fairy moves? who would be using fairy moves in fire vs Fairy match ups? cause i know i wouldn't unless Infernape. only exception, like my replay states all fairy teams have to do is get screens up, bring in azu and belly drum and sweep fire monos.

Also you'll be giving Talonflame to put a huge dent in Steel types and resists steel types as well.

Ask any steel user if they struggle against a t-flame in fire vs steel match ups. you have Scarfed Excadrill, Heatran is the biggest counter for talonflame alone also. just ladder with fire, get a better understanding of the typing as a whole and against other typings and tell me how the typing as a whole works for you, like you can just abuse steel in ladders nowadays and do solid due to the lack of Fire monos you have to vs, and fire vs steel aren't even sure wins themselves either.
 
Alright just going to leave this here.

+Lucina09: I didn't realize how well Grass can do against Fire tbh.

+Lucina09: I'm not a pro but I solemnly underestimated grass

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-200766744

Also with your whole Talk about Talonflame resisting fairy moves? who would be using fairy moves in fire vs Fairy match ups? cause i know i wouldn't unless Infernape. only exception, like my replay states all fairy teams have to do is get screens up, bring in azu and belly drum and sweep fire monos.



Ask any steel user if they struggle against a t-flame in fire vs steel match ups. you have Scarfed Excadrill, Heatran is the biggest counter for talonflame alone also. just ladder with fire, get a better understanding of the typing as a whole and against other typings and tell me how the typing as a whole works for you, like you can just abuse steel in ladders nowadays and do solid due to the lack of Fire monos you have to vs, and fire vs steel aren't even sure wins themselves either.

And that actually gives you the right to think that Talonflame should be unbanned? I'm finding this to be very funny considering the fact of what you just said me. Like I said, with the release of Talonflame, you're downgrading many monotypes to benefit just one mono team. That's one of the reasons why Talonflame was banned from monotype in the first place cause of its stats and ability that it carries. Remember that monotype has a lot of scarfed users. Not to mention the fact that who even runs an Arcanine with Dragon Pulse? To be honest, if he had Charizard-Y, or if I didn't have Ludicolo set up rain dance, and I never had Stealth Rocks up, who knows how the battle would turn out then. I made that mono grass team mainly to try and fight back against fire types. Cause if Charizard-Y was out, I would have a huge problem on my hands cause he has two drought users on his team instead of one. What I failed to realize after looking at the battle is that, why didn't he have Torkoal on his team that'll assist with his stealth rock issue? Also with Defog, Fire-types can clear away Stealth Rock and continue to send out Charizard or even Volcarona. This puts a whole bunch of pressure on types that have a weakness to Fire. Also you're assuming the fact that you've allowed for Azumarill to set up Belly Drum before then. Also, with Defog, you've gotten rid of screens that Klefki had set up.

Scarf Victini or Scarf Chandelure can practically sweep through pretty much most of my team anyway and it depends on the kinds of strategies that you have for a certain type.


Also you're forgetting that I main steel and every time I been against a fire user, I've always come out with a lost even though I ran Scarf Excadrill past. When you have someone that runs a scarf Victini and outspeeds it. Feliburn was right when he told me even though he swept my steel team 6-0 with his mono fire and I'm going to really keep that in my head. "Type advantages doesn't matter whether you have the upper hand or not. You can even make a monotype team that can attempt to try and adapt to its weakness." Still I'm struggling against mono fire with steel types ( mainly out of laziness to change my team ).

You're relying too much on the burnt chicken to do all the dirty work for you and the other fire mons in cleaning or putting dents in other monos instead of adding and taking out pokemon on a team to see which would be more fitting against what type.
 
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I have yet to use Mega Sableye ony dark teams,(it doesn't appeal to me) but I just wanted to throw this out there.

After trying out a few matches as well ad watching some others, it's clear to me that unless the steel user misplays like crazy, Fairy 100% loses to steel. Megatron pretty much literally beats every single fairy 1v1 unless they do something crazy like sash counter or something. It is by far the single most unbalanced matchup in the metagame.

Are we actually ok with this? I know some matchups are rough by nature, but Fairy actually needs to have crippling overspecialization for steel to even stand a chance. I'm talking things like fire/fighting/ground moves on literally everyting, focus sashes, babri berries, slow defensive builds, borderline gimmicky sets, the whole nine yards here.
Fire vs Grass, and Normal vs Electric is one sided as well so should be start unbanning Arceus Grass (lol) or Zekrom so they'd have a better chance? Why save one type and ruin countless others? Also, at least Fairy gets something that can touch steal types, and Focus Blast Gardevoir, Flamethrower / Aura Sphere Togekiss, Superpower Bell Drum Azu etc have always been viable.
 
Fire vs Grass, and Normal vs Electric is one sided as well so should be start unbanning Arceus Grass (lol) or Zekrom so they'd have a better chance? Why save one type and ruin countless others? Also, at least Fairy gets something that can touch steal types, and Focus Blast Gardevoir, Flamethrower / Aura Sphere Togekiss, Superpower Bell Drum Azu etc have always been viable.
I am a fairy user. Obviously, I dislike fighting against Steel-types since Steel types have the upper hand against Fairy types; however, all types have a weakness right. I mean, its part of the game, some types are weak to others. There are countless sets Fairy types can run to counter Steel Types, and frankly, thats what I do. I'm still sad @ the Mawilite ban, but I think it was needed to balance things out. Fairy was just way too op with mega mawile.


EDIT: Forgot to put my thoughts about Talonflame. I've been reading about it a lot. In my opinion, with Talonflame in the meta, the meta starts shifting towards being pretty lopsided. Fighting is completely screwed, Talonflame will literally fuck you over, same with grass. Talonflame is just too op in monotype. Talonflame not only has Gale Wings for that priority shit, but it is super fast as well, meaning unless ur a fast ice type, flare blitz is gunna come thru and rape more shit. Talonflame can also run like Tailwind, Taunt, or even Willowisp as its 4th move.
 
Gnief Fiar said:
As for this, I feel that both Pokemon are a tad bit uncommon.

Snorlax is the best one you've brought up. It's sort of similar to Mega Sableye, in the sense that you brought up, and you at least mentioned the fact that no Magic Bounce hurts it. The problem here is that Rest is also easily played around. Running Amnesia also means sacrificing Curse or Sleep Talk. However, not running Amnesia means you're wide open for special attackers. Then there's the problem of Snorlax being a bit overshadowed by Diggersby. I know that Snorlax is more of a set-up Pokemon and Diggersby is more of a hit-straight-away-and-do-massive-damage Pokemon, but Diggersby also has bulk. So as much as I like Snorlax, its uncommonness makes it not too much of a threat compared to Mega Sableye, which is a Pokemon that is run a lot.

Espeon suffers from lesser-used syndrome as well. Espeon may be strong on the special side, but it's really weak on the physical side. Further more, it's once again, overshadowed. This time by Mega Latias. This is due to better recovery, and better stats. Espeon also has better sets to use anyways like the screens set. And while Espeon has Magic Bounce, it doesn't use it as well as Mega Sableye since it's still lacking in bulk.

Mega Sableye is used for its great bulk and both offensive AND defensive presence. And while Snorlax achieves this a little, Mega Sableye does it better. While Snorlax is unneeded on a Normal team, Sableye(or at least, normal old Sableye) is used quite a bit and helps the Mono a lot as well. The reason people are debating Mega Sableye is because it has a better typing than either Espeon and Snorlax, ability to cripple, and its overall presence in the meta.

So far, I'm neutral to this matter, because I haven't used Ghost and Dark a whole lot. From my experiences with playing against it, it's a major annoyance, but I can usually get past it. I still need to test it out as a person with Mega Sableye. Overall though, I'm indifferent about what happens to Mega Sableye.

I agree that they're uncommon, but I also feel like commonality sometimes plays too big of a role in these debates. The point I was trying to make was that Mega Sableye is part of a large class of things. Specifically, a class of moderately to highly bulky pokemon that can run these types of sets

Calm mind/Curse/Bulk up/Quiver dance(the last one is scary. The thought of something fast and bulky makes me shudder)
Amensia/Iron Defense (wilo-wisp can work here for special attacker because it cuts attack on anyone without Guts)
Rest/Recover/Slack off/Roost/Wish/Giga Drain/Horn leech/Drain punch(Heal bell could possibly be used in absence of the others)
attacking move that benefits from the attack boost provide from the first move/Heal bell or another useful move if the slot before this fills that role

Mega Sableye is probably the best in this class, but I don't believe by as much as some people act. I don't think Mega Sab is better enough to get banned. Also, an answer to this type of threat is something that people should be thinking about. They may be uncommon in other types, but they aren't unheard of uncommon. And many of the less common ones are probably less common mostly because the types do have, at least seemingly, better options available to them. That's something ghost doesn't seem to have, and that's okay. It doesn't mean it should be banned away to try and make ghost users get more creative.

InfernapeTropius11 said:
To conclude, Snorlax and Espeon are nowhere near as good as Mega Sableye, as they lack both priority setup/crippling, and a way to deal with strong physical attacks before they set up (and Espeon never has a way). They also lack a STAB with no immunities, meaning they are completely walled by a certain type, and struggle against others, no matter how much they boost. These Pokemon can be effective, but the sets you posted are gimmicky and sorta niche. I know I sound really harsh (probably anyway), and I'm sorry, but Mega Sableye is much better than these Pokemon and is possibly the most broken Pokemon in mono right now (especially on dark). And, like I said earlier, Snorlax is rekted by loads of status moves, including taunt, trick, encore, etc. Also, a couple things I forgot to mention, Snorlax can also be worn down through Leech Seedl, and Sableye also has 3 immunities and only 1 weakness and 1 resistance, as compared to 1 immunity, and 1 weakness and 0 resistances (Snorlax) or 0 immunities, 3 weaknesses, and 2 resistances (Espeon). Plain typing for these two also doesn't really help their monotypes--they are weak to the same moves as their teammates, while Sableye has tremendous typing. So, Mega Sableye is a lot better at what it does than Espeon/Snorlax and these aren't valid comparisons, especially as those aren't even their most common sets (or their best sets imo).

I didn't quote the beginning, but I will address it. Dude, you don't have to apologize for disagreeing. You have a right to your opinion. I was a little PO'd because your section on Snorlax was mostly just fleshing out weaknesses that I thought I made a point to point out myself, and you completely ignored the fact that I have, historically, run Snorlax with an attack that could hit ghost (it was crunch which would destroy them). I got rid of it because Snorlax is supposed to be a part of a team with 5 other pokemon that can cover that area making crunch seem redundant when I could guarantee more OHKO's with Last Resort. That's what the entire game is about (In any meta not just monotype. Even 1v1, there's a reason why it's take 3 and pick 1). I thought about doing a bunch of damage calcs to show you that physical fighting isn't quite the threat you think it is, but that's not the point of this discussion.

I give you Espeon. I was just pointing out something that I had seen used that was similar to Mega Sableye.

The most broken thing in the current meta seems most probably to be Mega Metagross which can almost make fairy vs steel matches a complete waste of time. I don't know of a match up that Mega Sableye can do that to. I don't think Mega Sableye is actually broken, and several people agree with me on that even if there are a lot that don't.
 
Also you're forgetting that I main steel and every time I been against a fire user, I've always come out with a lost even though I ran Scarf Excadrill past. When you have someone that runs a scarf Victini and outspeeds it. Feliburn was right when he told me even though he swept my steel team 6-0 with his mono fire and I'm going to really keep that in my head. "Type advantages doesn't matter whether you have the upper hand or not. You can even make a monotype team that can attempt to try and adapt to its weakness." Still I'm struggling against mono fire with steel types ( mainly out of laziness to change my team ).

This is an older replay but none the less relevant. My only statement is that some types do have all the plays they need to defeat any other type, while others may not. There may be a lack of creativity to be the reason for that, but bullet punching scizors / megagrosses hammering ice and rock (and fairy, touchy topic) is alot different than flying handling ice, electric, and rock (I'd prefer to fight those than water or fighting :^)). All of the plays were there for this player to come up on top, and I wouldn't be ready to say this other player is a noob for losing either. I'm not on the unban talonflame side, but I think this would be good for the thread for people to see that prediction is what allows you to get around most monotypes, and then there are some "borked mons" that have enough coverage to completely destroy others, which is why I think we suspect test and ban. This core arguement everyone is trying to justify is really hard to justify in itself because there are some games where i 6-0 some really great players, but then with the exact same teams, they 6-0 me back, like I didn't get worse, they just got the better of me. Everything that happens within a game is crucial so please please please keep that in mind when you are saying, oh well I can just switch into this and its all good, so this core is too much! If it is that obvious I probably can double switch into something and put you in a tight situation. A lot of assumptions there, but it is all up to teambuilding creativity sometimes :^) .

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-177549735
 
Fire vs Grass, and Normal vs Electric is one sided as well so should be start unbanning Arceus Grass (lol) or Zekrom so they'd have a better chance? Why save one type and ruin countless others? Also, at least Fairy gets something that can touch steal types, and Focus Blast Gardevoir, Flamethrower / Aura Sphere Togekiss, Superpower Bell Drum Azu etc have always been viable.
I'm not really saying to unban Mawile anymore, but I am saying to do SOMETHING. In the case of Fairy, there's a clear starting point with Mega Metagross. Here you have a single mon that is literally one or two hit KOing the entire type, and not only having priority to help, but having the best support in hazard control and powerful backup sweepers to eliminate any and all support (which is really just klefki)
 
I'm not really saying to unban Mawile anymore, but I am saying to do SOMETHING. In the case of Fairy, there's a clear starting point with Mega Metagross. Here you have a single mon that is literally one or two hit KOing the entire type, and not only having priority to help, but having the best support in hazard control and powerful backup sweepers to eliminate any and all support (which is really just klefki)
Actually, this is a point I was curious about. I've started to get back into Mono, and from what I've seen and talked about, MegaGross may warrant a ban here. Not simply because it smashes Fairies (which it does admirably), but I'm curious as to what other types do to stop it. It has insane bulk, with 80/150/110 defenses. Utterly incredible. Not to mention its outstanding offensive stats too. 145/105/110 is absolutely incredible as well, and then you add in Tough Claws, essentially a LO boost. And then you add on its great movepool. It has coverage like no other, and while it usually runs 1 set only, with a variation here or there, it very certainly has the potential to be flexible, and add unpredictability in the mix as well. I personally use Flying, and run Skarmory to take it on, which is quite possibly one of the best counters available. Even then, I still tend to have troubles with it. Not to mention that I've seen a rise in Magnet Pull Magnezone + Mega Metagross, which, quite simply, 6-0'es Flying. Talking with one of my friends, who uses Dark and has very high success with it (laddering high, being on par with users such as Clearly and Mega P!ka, etc), and he says that even he has trouble with it using Dark. It has nearly no switch ins, and if it comes in on, say, TTar or a Volt Switch off of Mag or whatever, it gets a kill. Simple. Toying around with other types, I've noticed similar things. With its typing and bulk, it gets switch ins for days. And once it gets one, I'm forced to sac a mon to send in a revenge killer. Agility sets, while lacking in coverage (so it can't threaten everything, and requires more support) can somewhat remedy this if played well. That's just one example of how it can use its movepool to bypass what its original checks could be, albeit by adding different checks and counters.

However, one thing that is REALLY threatening about Metagross is that it can do this to no drawback. It resides on two of the most powerful Monotypes, Psychic and Steel. While most use a generic build, they can EASILY be adapated to how Metagross wants to be played, and what its weaknesses are (i.e. Magnet Pull Mag like previously mentioned). While it may not sweep much, without Agility, it can wallbreak insanely well, opening up simple sweeping opportunities for other sweepers on its types.

Oh, on the topic of team support, if you really wanna go the extra mile, BOTH of these monos have Healing Wish support (Psychic: Gard, Latis, Jirachi; Steel: Jirachi), which can be absolutely insane with Metagross. I've seen Scarf Healing Wish Rachi + Mega Mawile, and to be frank: it obliterated. The user of the team could play very recklessly with his Mawile early game, opening up holes for itself (lol) to come back in late game and sweep. Something similar could be used for Metagross, and I'm personally terrified of such a core. I know team support itself isn't a great argument for banning, but from what I've seen, that's what we're doing for Sableye.

Anyway, this was mostly an opening post since I was curious on everyone's opinion on this. Do you find M-Metagross banworthy? Why or why not? Should it be postponed until after the current discussion, or does it merit discussion right now? I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on how you feel at Metagross in the metagame.
 
Aegislash and Mega Sableye play very different roles. I don't think "you can do without this pokemon because you already have this other one" is a viable argument in this case. Mega Sab is a physical wall and currently the only thing on ghost that can take a strong knock off- even though ghost functioned without it before, it was a subpar type. I believe Mega Sableye brings ghost up to standard without making it extremely overpowered; as we've said before, Mega Sableye *is* able to be defeated by boosting physical attackers, anything that forces a switch, guts and moldbreaker pokemon, and substitute, to name a few. Due to ghost's inability to keep switching back and forth without taking major damage, and the lack of a hazard setter if you're running the element core (Gourgeist often subs for Golurk) and therefore the opponent's ability to switch safely, it's definitely not an impossible type to beat. A misprediction by the ghost user also wrecks Mega Sableye, and I think it's fair to say that no game is perfectly played and especially at high ladder, it's easy to mispredict your opponent

I have a feeling that some Ghost users may be being a bit naive on this subject... Spiritomb has access to a very similar move pool to M-Sableye while possessing only moderately smaller defensive stats???

I get that Spiritomb doesn't have the reliable recovery that Sableye does but it still has options for recovery and Rest can be used to remove status too. Spiritomb also has access to CM so it can run a very similar set to Sableye with the only difference being semi-reliable recovery, compared to Recover.

However to address the bolded part of Kammi's statement I don't believe that it is true either. With the bulk that Spiritomb possesses it can tank Knock Off's almost as well as Sableye, the only difference being Spiritombs ability to hold an item, which increases Knock Off's BP


252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 96-114 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 85.7% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk burned Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 58-69 (19 - 22.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk burned Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 39-46 (12.8 - 15.1%) -- possible 7HKO

252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sableye: 76-91 (25 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Ok so these are all the calcs I had time to run because I was in a bit of a hurry. Sableye's defences have been increased to what the Mega form has, base 125. And while there is still a difference between the two, Spiritomb can still tank Bisharp's Knock Offs pretty well in my opinion, which is why I maintain that if M-Sableye does get a full ban then Spiritomb can be the one to step in and take over from it, unless Ghost users would still prefer to use regular Sableye.

Actually, this is a point I was curious about. I've started to get back into Mono, and from what I've seen and talked about, MegaGross may warrant a ban here. Not simply because it smashes Fairies (which it does admirably), but I'm curious as to what other types do to stop it. It has insane bulk, with 80/150/110 defenses. Utterly incredible. Not to mention its outstanding offensive stats too. 145/105/110 is absolutely incredible as well, and then you add in Tough Claws, essentially a LO boost. And then you add on its great movepool. It has coverage like no other, and while it usually runs 1 set only, with a variation here or there, it very certainly has the potential to be flexible, and add unpredictability in the mix as well. I personally use Flying, and run Skarmory to take it on, which is quite possibly one of the best counters available. Even then, I still tend to have troubles with it. Not to mention that I've seen a rise in Magnet Pull Magnezone + Mega Metagross, which, quite simply, 6-0'es Flying. Talking with one of my friends, who uses Dark and has very high success with it (laddering high, being on par with users such as Clearly and Mega P!ka, etc), and he says that even he has trouble with it using Dark. It has nearly no switch ins, and if it comes in on, say, TTar or a Volt Switch off of Mag or whatever, it gets a kill. Simple. Toying around with other types, I've noticed similar things. With its typing and bulk, it gets switch ins for days. And once it gets one, I'm forced to sac a mon to send in a revenge killer. Agility sets, while lacking in coverage (so it can't threaten everything, and requires more support) can somewhat remedy this if played well. That's just one example of how it can use its movepool to bypass what its original checks could be, albeit by adding different checks and counters.

However, one thing that is REALLY threatening about Metagross is that it can do this to no drawback. It resides on two of the most powerful Monotypes, Psychic and Steel. While most use a generic build, they can EASILY be adapated to how Metagross wants to be played, and what its weaknesses are (i.e. Magnet Pull Mag like previously mentioned). While it may not sweep much, without Agility, it can wallbreak insanely well, opening up simple sweeping opportunities for other sweepers on its types.

Oh, on the topic of team support, if you really wanna go the extra mile, BOTH of these monos have Healing Wish support (Psychic: Gard, Latis, Jirachi; Steel: Jirachi), which can be absolutely insane with Metagross. I've seen Scarf Healing Wish Rachi + Mega Mawile, and to be frank: it obliterated. The user of the team could play very recklessly with his Mawile early game, opening up holes for itself (lol) to come back in late game and sweep. Something similar could be used for Metagross, and I'm personally terrified of such a core. I know team support itself isn't a great argument for banning, but from what I've seen, that's what we're doing for Sableye.

Anyway, this was mostly an opening post since I was curious on everyone's opinion on this. Do you find M-Metagross banworthy? Why or why not? Should it be postponed until after the current discussion, or does it merit discussion right now? I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on how you feel at Metagross in the metagame.

Yeah I'm starting to agree with a MegaGross ban too. As Croven said it has great support from both mono' sit resides on and can cover quite a fair bit of the meta game within 4 moveslots, and the rest can be covered from its teammates.

And it isn't just teams who are at a disadvantage that can be swept by MegaGross. Being a Ground user I can attest to losing quite a few matches against Steel of late due to being swept in the late game by MegaGross who by its coverage of Ice Punch/Zen Headbutt/Grass Knot.

I may be able to just write it off as bad plays on my part, but the two mons I use to check it (Sand Rush Exca and Gastrodon) can be 2HKO'd by either Ice Punch or Grass Knot. And with Levitators on Psychic and Skarmory on Steel it can be hard to hit with an EQ unless you predict it just right.

All of this couple with great offensive and defensive stats make it in my opinion a mega that is in place for at least a suspect
 
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I have a feeling that some Ghost users may be being a bit naive on this subject... Spiritomb has access to a very similar move pool to M-Sableye while possessing only moderately smaller defensive stats???

I get that Spiritomb doesn't have the reliable recovery that Sableye does but it still has options for recovery and Rest can be used to remove status too. Spiritomb also has access to CM so it can run a very similar set to Sableye with the only difference being semi-reliable recovery, compared to Recover.

However to address the bolded part of Kammi's statement I don't believe that it is true either. With the bulk that Spiritomb possesses it can tank Knock Off's almost as well as Sableye, the only difference being Spiritombs ability to hold an item, which increases Knock Off's BP


252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 96-114 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 85.7% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk burned Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 58-69 (19 - 22.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk burned Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 39-46 (12.8 - 15.1%) -- possible 7HKO

252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sableye: 76-91 (25 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Ok so these are all the calcs I had time to run because I was in a bit of a hurry. Sableye's defences have been increased to what the Mega form has, base 125. And while there is still a difference between the two, Spiritomb can still tank Bisharp's Knock Offs pretty well in my opinion, which is why I maintain that if M-Sableye does get a full ban then Spiritomb can be the one to step in and take over from it, unless Ghost users would still prefer to use regular Sableye.
Actually, Spiritomb can't really take Bisharp's Knock Off's at all. You forgot to calc with Life Orb on your Bisharp, as most Bisharp's I've seen run Life Orb, and I personally run that myself.

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 152-179 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 101-121 (33.2 - 39.8%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO (second KOff, after the item has been knocked off)

So if you add up the minimum rolls, they turn into 88%, which as we all know is how much HP you have after SR. So basically, it's a 100% 2HKO after SR, which as we have discussed is not hard at all to get against a Ghost mono. And don't forget that's the minimum rolls.

And if it SD's on the switch, say goodbye to your Spiritomb:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 300-355 (98.6 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

So yeah, I wouldn't immediately call the Ghost users naive for saying that Sableye is possibly their only good Knock Off switch in.

However, Bisharp is quite possibly the strongest Knock Off user in the OU meta, bar Crawdaunt, so it is respectable that Spiritomb is barely 2HKO'ed by his LO Knock Off after Rocks. If it had reliable recovery, I would most likely agree with you here that Spiritomb could fill the void that M-Sableye leaves. Unfortunately, you seem to underestimate how badly the lack of reliable of recovery hurts it. Sleep Talk is INCREDIBLY unreliable, and should never be used as a legit argument. Trust me, I've tried to use Sleep Talk to win games, and let's just say that it didn't end well for me. Add that to the fact that is is susceptible to both Spikes and Rocks and you have here a very shaky check to Knock Off, one of the most powerful moves in the game for good reason.

Anyway, I'm not experienced with Ghost myself, but I've played a couple Spiritombs, and they didn't absorb Knock Off one bit. I am registered for the Core ladder thing for Ghost, so hopefully I can get some experience with Ghost after using it on the ladder. We'll have to see though, ladder isn't always the most reliable method of getting experience.
 
Actually, Spiritomb can't really take Bisharp's Knock Off's at all. You forgot to calc with Life Orb on your Bisharp, as most Bisharp's I've seen run Life Orb, and I personally run that myself.

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 152-179 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 101-121 (33.2 - 39.8%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO (second KOff, after the item has been knocked off)

So if you add up the minimum rolls, they turn into 88%, which as we all know is how much HP you have after SR. So basically, it's a 100% 2HKO after SR, which as we have discussed is not hard at all to get against a Ghost mono. And don't forget that's the minimum rolls.

And if it SD's on the switch, say goodbye to your Spiritomb:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 300-355 (98.6 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

So yeah, I wouldn't immediately call the Ghost users naive for saying that Sableye is possibly their only good Knock Off switch in.

However, Bisharp is quite possibly the strongest Knock Off user in the OU meta, bar Crawdaunt, so it is respectable that Spiritomb is barely 2HKO'ed by his LO Knock Off after Rocks. If it had reliable recovery, I would most likely agree with you here that Spiritomb could fill the void that M-Sableye leaves. Unfortunately, you seem to underestimate how badly the lack of reliable of recovery hurts it. Sleep Talk is INCREDIBLY unreliable, and should never be used as a legit argument. Trust me, I've tried to use Sleep Talk to win games, and let's just say that it didn't end well for me. Add that to the fact that is is susceptible to both Spikes and Rocks and you have here a very shaky check to Knock Off, one of the most powerful moves in the game for good reason.

Anyway, I'm not experienced with Ghost myself, but I've played a couple Spiritombs, and they didn't absorb Knock Off one bit. I am registered for the Core ladder thing for Ghost, so hopefully I can get some experience with Ghost after using it on the ladder. We'll have to see though, ladder isn't always the most reliable method of getting experience.

Yeah I guess I was a bit quick to judge on that score and I apologise.

However as for Bisharps most run set that I've seen, Lum Berry seems to be more popular, and is certainly the one I've seen the most.

But yes I do see your point and I stand rebuked on some of the statements I made.

I think to get more of a perspective into this subject I might start laddering a bit with Ghost when I get back to my computer so I can get a bit more insight into both points of view so I can be a bit less unbiased with my opinion :>
 
By the way, random question, how fun or not fun is playing against Mega Sableye for all of you? Specifically on both of its types, is it more or less fun/not fun to play against on either? Try to include as many type matchups in your opinion as possible.
 
Did I call it viable? I just corrected someone by saying that it did exist.
Sorry about that, meant to say viable, it was just a typo. I did know that Mismagius existed from a previous post on this thread. Also, he didn't use Mismagius, so he had no Heal Beller. So, I should have said either no viable Heal Beller, or that his Ghost team had no Heal Beller, thanks for catching that.
As well, Scarf Gengar HP Ice is the best counter for Ghost to non-scarf Skymin, and is useful in many other matchups as well, with access to Trick, Sludge Bomb (also SE on Skymin and STAB), Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, Dazzling Gleam, Psychic, Energy Ball, Focus Blast, and Dream Eater (you're welcome DEG XD). Still can be flinchaxed to death by Air Slash, but then others can switch in if it is choice locked. Or, you pray for no flinch (40% chance to not flinch) and KO with Sludge Bomb/HP Ice. If it is scarfed, and as such is choice locked, ghost has switchins. HP Fire: Chandelure/Jellicent. HP Ice: Chandelure/Jellicent. Earth Power: Gourgeist (and it has access to Light Screen, too). Air Slash: Aegislash. Seed Flare: Gourgeist/Chandelure/Aegislash (although the SpD drops can get overwhelming, but they can likely KO first, or set up Light Screen in the case of Gourgeist, then reswitch). So basically, the element core can wall just about anything Skymin can do if choiced, or Scarf Gengar outspeeds if it is not choiced and KOs Skymin (even if it is behind a sub--it can tank one of Skymin's moves). Frisk Gourgeist also reveals if it is choice locked or not, but can't take HP Fire/Ice or Air Slash, so you've gotta switch it in for something like Aegi/Chandy, as Skymin will likely use Earth Power against them. Cursed Body Jellicent can also get surprise disables on one of its moves.
I kinda derailed a bit, but ghost can beat Skymin and thanks Narset for catching my mistake. Also, I'm interested to see how this new Core Ladder Challenge turns out, especially as Mega Sableye and Mega Gallade are included. I believe itwill be both interesting and informative to hear the opinions of those who will try these Pokemon themselves, rather than just facing them (I have never used Mega Sableye, now I have an excuse, yay).
As well, Scarf Air Slash Skarmory OP imo o3o
 
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Aegislash and Mega Sableye play very different roles. I don't think "you can do without this pokemon because you already have this other one" is a viable argument in this case. Mega Sab is a physical wall and currently the only thing on ghost that can take a strong knock off- even though ghost functioned without it before, it was a subpar type. I believe Mega Sableye brings ghost up to standard without making it extremely overpowered; as we've said before, Mega Sableye *is* able to be defeated by boosting physical attackers, anything that forces a switch, guts and moldbreaker pokemon, and substitute, to name a few. Due to ghost's inability to keep switching back and forth without taking major damage, and the lack of a hazard setter if you're running the element core (Gourgeist often subs for Golurk) and therefore the opponent's ability to switch safely, it's definitely not an impossible type to beat. A misprediction by the ghost user also wrecks Mega Sableye, and I think it's fair to say that no game is perfectly played and especially at high ladder, it's easy to mispredict your opponent.

For example: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-200685344 (I thought I played this rather well- kudos to Arken)

Alright so, sableye mega is beatable so is every pokemon but it expand team building, one must thing before finish his team ''Will this team be able to beat mega sableye?'' Also not every team has the ability to have ''great'' setup sweepers to counter sableye and continue, and if you want us to run ''sub and setup sweeper'' that limits the usage of attacking moves by 2, also MSableye can use it's prankster WoW before Mega Evolving making pass burn the target before it has set up a sub. Also people ''runs'' dazzling gleam on sableye and no dark pulse since it cover it's weakness against dark and gives them an advantage over fighting, so if you had dazzling gleam in that game you would have won.

By the way, random question, how fun or not fun is playing against Mega Sableye for all of you? Specifically on both of its types, is it more or less fun/not fun to play against on either? Try to include as many type matchups in your opinion as possible.

It's less fun playing versus Mega Sableye and I use dark, it swept me lot of times with Calm Mind+Dazzling Gleam.
 
Who is currently banned/unbanned? (regarding Ubers for unbanning) The OP looks a little out of date. Also, are we considering anything for banning/unbanning?
 
I understand the distress of the Mawilite ban for Fairy teams, but you will have to adapt and change the standard team style of "set screens and spam sucker" with Fairy teams, as it was honestly getting overwhelming for most teams, and took little to no effort in doing so. This will now force different antics and I hope to see Mega Diancie in action, with its massive offensive powers and nice physical rock STAB. It's too early to draw conclusions yet, as the bans are not even live on the server yet, so until then, we need to wait and see how it pans out for Fairy. Just as a side note and confidence booster, one of the highest ranked fairy users on the ladder does not even use Mega Mawile, so don't think losing that means Fairy is now trash, because it definitely is not.

Anyway, I want to talk about Galladite in this post. Mega Gallade is probably even worse than Mega Medicham, due to its bulk and dirty Bulk Up Drain Punch sets that some carry. This is totally devastating to every normal team and most steel teams. Some run just an offensive SD variant, which is probably more destructive. Mega Gallade, just like Mega Mawile, needs to set one SD and the pressure is on. Unless you have a physical scarfer (assuming it is at full health and can survive a +2 shadow sneak), most will fall to a +2 CC or Drain Punch. Taking a look on how teams manage against Mega Gallade:

normal - will get dominated, even with mega arduino.

fire - can apply great offensive pressure, and runs nice scarf users, so probably neutral.

water - can hope for scald burns, but if on psychic teams, the burn will be healed. other than that, the offensive pressure gets too much for water. slowbro gets deck'd by knock off

electric - deck'd. can have rotom-w as a check assuming its at full health, lanturn with twave, but again, if these mons arent at full health, its over. fighting will never allow that and psychic can stall it out.

grass - can hope for skymin hax. not good enough reasoning though

ice - can apply heavy damage with kyurem-w draco or ice punch weavile. but drain punch will give back a lot of hp. so ice will struggle heavily.

fighting - neutral.

poison - if(psycho cut) { deck'd; }

ground - hippo can check for so long, and sand rush excadrill can hope for iron head flinches or ko with earthquake if gallade is damaged. would be a bit of a struggle

flying - skarmory can hold it off until it sd's and ruins everything with ice punch. zard mega x can be bulky and WoW but if its +2, don't think it'd survive.

psychic - whoever +2's with gallade first and shadow sneak/knock off spams.

bug - mega pinsir is tanned but its outsped, so need to make sure mega gallade is weakened before quick attacking. probably neutral matchup

rock - rof

ghost - knock off spam, sneak spam, though aegislash and mega sableye can probably hold its own and support the team well.

dragon - offensive usually, so classic outrage spam would probably be fine, but its a poor playstyle in other scenarios.

dark - reliant on mega sableye and greninja to hold off and revenge kill respectively. not good enough as mega gallade can sub/sd/bulk up

steel - overwhelming pressure. if skarmory is gone, gonna have a hard time.

fairy - clefable is a great wall, as is prankster klefki t-wave to cripple it. fairy could hold its own i believe

Just a quick analysis on how teams match against this powerful mega in my opinion and experiences, so share your thoughts on that for the community to read and think about. Having said all of that, I am supportive of a global ban for Galladite, though I want to hear what the community has to say. Also, please note anyone can talk and vent their thoughts here. You don't need an invitation to post here, as someone above implied.

After seeing Mega Gallade in many battles, I think it's way too versatile, and good to be in a metagame like this. Due to Mega Gallade having a better movepool than Mega Medicham, there are a lot more options for people to play with making it almost impossible to counter / check Gallade as a whole. Its standard Swords Dance set is destructive to stall teams and balanced teams since its blazing speed and power lets it rip walls apart after previous damage.

+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 265-313 (79.3 - 93.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 358-423 (84.6 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Staraptor: 316-373 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 327-385 (87.6 - 103.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 357-421 (92.9 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 181-214 (47.3 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (You're not switching in and if it has Ice Punch...)
+1 252 Atk Gallade Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 452-536 (118.3 - 140.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 364-430 (90 - 106.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Most Mews invest in Speed + SpDef as well.)
+2 252 Atk Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 340-402 (86.2 - 102%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (no item does at least 58%)
+2 252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 301-355 (71.6 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (It lives, but the Psychic / Fighting user can easily swap out into something that can wall it such as Keldeo or Mew.)
+2 252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 265-313 (77 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 270-319 (78.4 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (This is an example as to how powerful this thing is. 110 is a great speed tier as well.
+2 252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 306-361 (75.7 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 361-426 (89.3 - 105.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 396-468 (118.5 - 140.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Everything else is either weak to it (Heatran, Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn) or their type has an easier time beating Mega Gallade. (Fairy)

Scald or Discharge is not a reliable way to stop Mega Gallade. If you've resorted to this just to neutralize it (Psychic gets Heal Bell!) then you can see how broken it is.

Gallade can run sets other than the SD set as well. It has access to some good boosting moves, and even more support moves so you can change Mega Gallade's set to fit your team's needs. You can run a Sub Bulk Up set or even a Wish Will-o-Wisp set (<3). Sub Bulk Up renders more passive Pokemon such as Weezing, Porygon2, and Mew useless. In fact, you can tweak your EVs so your sub survives certain moves making Gallade a lot scarier.

0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gallade: 60-71 (21.6 - 25.6%) -- 0.8% chance to 4HKO

lol have fun trying to break my sub before I regain everything with Drain Punch.

To me, the Willo set is extremely dangerous. Things who can normally wall / check it such as Lando-T, and Swampert just can't anymore. A 110 speed tier lets Gallade outrun most walls without investment. Knock Off further cripples them removing them of their precious Leftovers or Eviolite.

4 Atk burned Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gallade: 102-121 (30 - 35.5%) -- 31.4% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk burned Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gallade: 70-83 (20.5 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0- Atk burned Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gallade: 75-88 (22 - 25.8%) -- 3.4% chance to 4HKO
4 Atk burned Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gallade: 56-66 (16.4 - 19.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after sandstorm damage
4 Atk burned Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gallade: 144-169 (42.3 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (you can even outstall BulkyRaptor at full health which is funny)
4 Atk burned Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gallade: 55-66 (16.1 - 19.4%) -- possible 6HKO

In fact, it doubles up as a Dark Pulse absorber for Psychic types.

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 130-153 (38.2 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Lives the Hydro Pump right after)

What makes it dangerous is because it can run some other moves unlike Medicham. However, if this does get banned, Medicham's going to come right back. The release of several speedy megas does not change the fact it can 1-2HKO every single wall in Monotype. So I personally think that Medicham should be banned along with Gallade.

~

I agree with a majority of the Mega Gallade vs Type things Nani posted, but Fighting vs Fighting has become a whoever has a healthy Gallade (or Hawlucha) wins. Gallade absolutely dominates Fighting with Psycho Cut or Zen Headbutt. Keldeo's Scarf Water STAB will not do too much because of Gallade's Sp Def (Keldeo generally runs Specs or CM anyways), and Terrakion's STABs are resisted. It resists Mach Punch as well :c

As for Psychic, it's mostly Knock Off spam. I personally think Shadow Sneak is a little lacking on something like Gallade since it's going to be missing something if it's running SD. Besides, most Psychic teams are balanced so everything's going to get outsped outside of Scarf Victini. (Keldeo & Terrakion conveniently resists V-create & U-turn. Slowbro walls Victini even if it Bolt Strikes.)

For Ghost, now that Mega Sableye's a thing, Balanced Ghost has become the prominent playstyle so there will not be a lot of mons carrying Shadow Sneak outside of Aegislash. However, Meloetta walls Aegislash, and Keldeo will weaken Aegislash to the point where other mons can take care of it. Mega Sableye is the ultimate counter to Mega Gallade, but Mew's Synchronize is going to burn Sableye if it tries to Willo Gallade turning it into another 50/50. If Sableye only has Dark Pulse, then Gallade can set up on it if it has Sub. Hazards and other stuff make it a lot easier to wear down, unlike Dark.

Dragon types are pretty slow compared to Mega Gallade. Everything is outsped by Gallade unless if it's Latios or Latias (speed tie) or they're scarved. Even then, it's pretty obvious if they're scarved because who's going to switch a Garchomp in against something who's faster than it? Even if it was only a bluff and it Swords Dances instead, just sack something before killing it with Ice Punch. Slowbro makes a great Outrage cushion as well.

Fire may be able to apply nice offensive pressure, but once Torkoal's dead (bopped by +2 Gallade) and rocks are up, Psychic can easily outstall Fire's scarf users. After that, Gallade just kills everything else. As for Fighting, their scarf users (Terrakion & Keldeo) outspeed all of Fire's scarves so RIP Fire.

Tl;Dr: Mega Gallade is extremely good in a variety of matchups depending on its set making it almost impossible to counter completely unless if your using a Fairy or Bug (can't counter, but can force it out with Sticky Web). Mega Medicham should be banned as well since it's still Monotype's best wallbreaker. New and faster megas do not change this, in fact, it makes it even better at its job.
 
Just an update on how things are looking:

Mega Medicham - will be allowed in monotype for both psychic and fighting (until other two are dealt with, then we'll see)
Mega Gallade - will NOT be allowed in monotype at all
Mega Sableye - a suspect test may be done for this as people are split (including myself)

I outlined my thoughts here about Mega Gallade, and still firmly believe them. As for the others, I believe leaving Mega Medicham alone for now is fine (until sablenite and galladite are dealt with, it will be looked at more), due to its frailty and "limited" coverage, as compared to Gallade. And in regards with Mega Sableye, I personally am on the fence now, but still leaning to a dark only typeban. a manual suspect test may happen if no clear verdict is shown.
 
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hey guys i like the discussion about gallade but i just want to ask you how its supposed to beat all those types with only 4 moveslots or did u guys forget that it only gets FOUR moves it cant break all those things bc i cant carry psycho cut close combat swords dance ice punch knock off shadow sneak will o wisp knock off in one set so it still gets walled by something lets think about it for christ sakes
 
hey guys i like the discussion about gallade but i just want to ask you how its supposed to beat all those types with only 4 moveslots or did u guys forget that it only gets FOUR moves it cant break all those things bc i cant carry psycho cut close combat swords dance ice punch knock off shadow sneak will o wisp knock off in one set so it still gets walled by something lets think about it for christ sakes
Yes, a pokemon can carry only 4 moves at a time, but Gallade could possibly be carrying any one of those moves you mentioned and more. There is no way to know what set the Gallade is running until it uses a move or two and by then you might have already let it set up or you might have lost a vital member of your team. Not knowing what it could be running is part of what makes it so threatening. Greninja was banned from OU for its massive move pool, yet it can only have 4 moves as well. It's the same reasoning here.
 
hey guys i like the discussion about gallade but i just want to ask you how its supposed to beat all those types with only 4 moveslots or did u guys forget that it only gets FOUR moves it cant break all those things bc i cant carry psycho cut close combat swords dance ice punch knock off shadow sneak will o wisp knock off in one set so it still gets walled by something lets think about it for christ sakes
Swords Dance, Close Combat, Psycho Cut, and Knock Off are all you need to make a gigantic dent. With Ice Punch, it's overkill vs Flying, and with Shadow Sneak it's overkill vs Ghost and Psychic. Will-o-Wisp is for crippling its usual counters such as Lando-T and Hippodown. Gallade doesn't need all of them to be good. The only thing that could be influenced would be Ice Punch Gallade vs Dragon, but Knock Off + Psycho Cut already does a lot.
 
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If versatility is the problem, then you should look at Greninja. You don't exactly see Greninja running the same movesets all the time. His main arsenal consists of Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, Grass Knot, HP Fire, Extrasensory, and Gunk Shot. With the moves I just listed, this shinobi can rip through Ground, Rock, Fire, Psychic, Ghost, Flying, Dragon, Grass, Water, Steel (@HP Fire, only to an extent; doesn't work as well for Ice &Grass), Bug, Fighting, Poison, AND last but not least, Fairy. So versatile it has answers to at least 14 out of 18 types! I may also have missed a move and a few types it works well against, but I think that's enough to highlight my point. If you're thinking like xbooty, you might want to say something right now, and I'd agree with you, but I'm just copying the general line of thought for now.

It also has the stats and coverage to make physical ninja work, Booty Deluxe being one of the users who makes this work, with access to moves like U-Turn, Rock Slide, Low Kick, Shadow sneak, Night Slash, Gunk Shot, and Waterfall. On top of that, he's not restricted to just one item. He can run Life Orb, Choice Band, Expert Belt, and Choice Scarf. You probably have your own opinions about these items and their viability, but they put it in their fair share of work in the teams they are a part of by either denting the opponent's team or cleaning it up.

I'm basically about to waste a third paragraph (*mini-block of text) on Greninja when I don't even want this thing banned, but Greninja is a Pokemon of offensive versatility. It has the stats to be physical or special threat (this one being the more obvious threat), the coverage to nail quite a number of things, the capability to utilize different items, and a hidden ability that makes it moves that much more frightening. Okay, it's actually the ability's effect to practically add STAB on every move it uses IN TANDEM with Greninja's movepool and stats that makes it so scary, and without Protean his "versatility" isn't a big problem. It's not solely his ability's fault, but the sum of all his attributes that make him a threat, but on a related note, its ability is literally about being versatile (some online dictionary, 2. changeable; inconstant). Heck, even its concept as a ninja speaks for Greninja's versatility.

It was banned to Ubers because practically nothing could switch into it! <- Given the right predicts, of course. Let that sink in for a moment. Greninja is Ubers now. Ubers for its movepool (quote Acast). The ban was just decided though, so I apologize if it's already in the queue of things to suspect/ban. Greninja's not even the reason I'm posting today. I just thought I'd open by talking about versatility, a quality of Mega Gallade's that is leading to its banishment.

In Nani's post, Mega Gallade posed a threat to multiple types because it has access to the moves Swords Dance, Close Combat, Drain Punch, Psycho Cut/Zen Headbutt, Knock Off, Shadow Sneak, and Ice Punch. The right combination of moves gives Gallade-Mega the ability to slice through a team with its sick-looking, blade + tonfa arms. In practicality though, you only get FOUR moves to choose from and you can't exactly change your moves right as the battle starts to give yourself an edge. You pick the four you want with the thought in mind that you're going to completely cleave through a certain type(s), but with that combination of moves comes a core/Pokemon that you can't break through/play around forever.

Going back to Greninja for a bit, yeah, it has answers to a lot of types, but just like Gallade, Greninja's chosen movepool will eventually prove futile against a certain core/Pokemon. For example's sake, I run Dark Pulse, Hydro Pump, HP Fire, and Ice Beam on Greninja @ Dark. It's quite anti-Psy/Ghost and works well vs Dragon, Flying, Bug, etc., but I am hard-walled by Gastrodon. (quick tutor sesh) Okay, so now Gastro's a problem, maybe I should put Grass Knot for Dark Pulse, but now naturally bulky-ish Psychic and Ghost Pokemon become somewhat of a problem, but regardless of what I put, SpDef Scrafty (don't say it doesn't exist) walls me along with SpDef Rotom-Wash. Now you say, "that's what teammates are for" to solve the Gastrodon/Psy+Ghost problem, but by saying that, you've sort of admitted that Greninja's threatening versatility (back to versatility) is hampered by 4MSS!

4MSS or four move slot syndrome, if you're unfamiliar to the term, is having a functional movepool, but not having enough move slots to utilize it. Maybe a better example is Chansey on Normal. You want Seismic Toss, Softboiled, Stealth Rock, Heal Bell, and Toxic/T-Wave. Nope, no can do, that's 5 moves. You realize Heal Bell is the better option for the team, but now you run the risk of being helpless against Pokemon with recovery/set up moves. Again, you have your teammates, but in practicality, things don't always go according to plan and you find yourself alone, defenseless, and gg all because of 4MSS. I'm not here to petition against 4MSS, no, rather 4MSS is a good thing since it acts as a necessary, unbiased evil in this way, preventing Pokemon from having an answer to all things.

Where am I going with this?

Mega Gallade also suffers from 4MSS. Personally, I run SD, Psycho Cut, Knock Off, and Shadow Sneak on Fighting. Clearly anti-Psychic, but now I find myself helpless against Mega Venusaur + Drapion, Skarmory, heck, even Hydreigon. Even though I designed Gallade to be anti-Psychic, my chances of winning still aren't 100% ._. "But Arken, you're a fucking noob," no, be quiet, I'm trying to keep Mega Gallade for Fighting. Using Anttya's set of SD, CC, Psycho Cut, and Knock Off, you get off-set by Gliscor, Landorus-T, Clefable (unaware for max walling), Sableye (walls you whatever set you do), Zapdos, Bulky Gyarados, and I ran out of Pokemon because I already have more than 3 listed, BUT I admit that's some fantastic coverage you have there. While Gallade does have bulk to survive a hit as it sets up, it's not like he has enough to set up more against most Pokemon nor does it have reliable recovery to fix its lowered health. Drain Punch does exist, but the drop in base power is easily noticeable. After trading health for power, you are now prone to being KO'd by scarfed revenged killers or strong priority, cutting your sweep short. If you had Shadow Sneak, which is an underwhelming priority to begin with, you may have been able to do something about those scarfed Pokemon that you've strategically worn down, but 4MSS has declared that you're screwed against them because you chose not to run it for more coverage.

I want to list off all the types like Nani did and show that it's not as overwhelming when you clearly define the 4 moves you're going to use on Gallade, but I already felt like this is too much for a first post and I'm not entirely confident that I'm defending Mega-Gallade well. Gallade-Mega is a nice, strong Pokemon with some bulk with obvious sweeping potential, but I don't really think it breaks the meta, not on Fighting at least where it doesn't really get support from its teammates unlike in Psychic where stray scald burns and discharge paras can be cured. WishPass Psychic anyone? !ds fighting type, heal bell Fighting's Hyper Offensive nature leaves them relatively frail in a sense. It's go big or go broke in Fighting whereas in Psychic you can settle for a play style with minimal risks, switching between your defensive core to get a feel of everything as you wear your opponent down before finishing them.

Edit: Forgot to include this because I was rushing to get to class, but it's just an extension of the previous paragraph. Psychic is a naturally bulky type which common features walls in its teams. Say you bring out Gallade, but then you're forced out by something, maybe a scarfed Pokemon, well in Psychic, you can just switch to a wall and bring Gallade back out later, but in Fighting, it's practically "can I afford to lose Mega Gallade now?" or "which Pokemon should I sack?" Fighting isn't swarming with walls that have reliable recovery, your team gets worn down bit by bit overtime because that's just how Fighting teams are. I'm not saying it's broken in Psychic, sorry to all the Psychic users who see my points as so, but I'm just trying to say that it's more manageable on Fighting than on Psychic. I am secretly bargaining Mega-Gallade's place in Fighting for Mega-Gallade's ban in Psychic. That's a joke, but aye.
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One more thing in response to Anttya at the part where it's Fighting vs. Scarfed Victini, yeah, Terrakion and Keldeo take those U-Turns and V-Creates, but Victini also has access to Psychic moves like Zen Headbutt and Psychic/Psyshock, so it's not like they can just conveniently switch-in at anytime a Pokemon in Fighting is being forced out. Sorry for just responding to that bit.

TL;DR Greninja has avoided being banned despite being versatile like Gallade because of 4MSS. Gallade is a powerful Pokemon, but suffers 4MSS that prevents it from being able to be fully realized as a sweeping machine. Gallade-Mega appreciates support, but Fighting is a relatively frail type in the sense that it cannot recover, leaving it vulnerable to status/misc. damage over time, and cannot give Gallade-Mega the same support that Psychic can, thus making it more manageable on Fighting teams.

inb4 intentions are completely misinterpreted and Gallade-Mega along with Greninja are now banned.
 
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