Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

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DoW

formally Death on Wings
Certainly Swift Swim needs to be addressed, perhaps more urgently than Talonflame, however we've come so far with this discussion it would feel like we were going backwards were we to let it drop here. However, I don't see that a conclusion can be reached via these discussions; we've been repeating ourselves for the past page almost.

I say we just do a Gale Wings Suspect Test. We won't gain anything from more discussions IMO, and it's pretty much been agreed that a Gale Wings + Talonflame complex ban would solve any problems. For this reason, I think it would be the simplest solution and allow us to move on to Swift Swim quickly, which seems to be arguably a more pressing issue (I'd certainly like to discuss it).
Treecko would it be possible to set this up? Honestly I don't see a simpler or fairer solution.
 
Well I may not be a top ladder-er like: Godchef or Kaiser. But I do know that I use fire a lot and I rarely use Talonflame and seeing people just say that fire will be unviable without Talonflame just irked me. I have beat many other fire teams with Talonflame. Fire does not need Talonflame to be viable as much as alot of fire users say it does. It really does not.
 
Before I start I want to mention I am primarily a Fighting Type user, but I will try to stay away from being biased. Lately, I have been using plenty of types to ladder such as Steel, Fire, Water, Fighting, Fairy, and Flying, and I have started to look at how Talon changes the Metagame so I finally came back with my argument...

Oh I think you have a misunderstanding with me. I wasn't even thinking of frost. I'm talking about main monotype players although now that you mention they are usually frequent frost. But yeah I brought up kaiser just as a point. A point that if its suspected the ultimate verdict should be done how its normally done on smogon. Although even a suspect is shady when people usually think I'm lying before telling them about this thread.


banning Gale Wings makes it completely useless to fire mono. As I stated in my points of why fire needs it ,in every case because of its priority. Taking away that its just "a swellow with flare blitz" except swellow is slightly stronger :I
This is not entirely true. Talon still does possess speed to use against certain pokemon. As mentioned before, Flying does not need it. When it comes to fire without Talonflame, there are quite a few fast options and scarfers. Without Gale Wings, Fire would just be missing some priority. Now then, does this mean Talon is completely useless? Not a chance. Talon still has the speed to deal with certain threats, as well as the ability to run a choice item set. True about Talon being able to easily be picked off after Stealth Rocks and Priority, however, lets think about all of the types in perspective of this...

1. Fire - There isn't too much Talon can do against Fire. Fire has access to quite a few Stealth Rock users. Talon cannot do much against Rotom-Heat or Heatran, which can be commonly used fire types. Only things Talon can really hurt here are Fire/Fighting types (Such as Infernape) or something at low HP. Little Priority.

2. Water - Water has access to quite a few Stealth Rock users and a variety of Physical Walls or potentials. Being a supereffective type to Talon, it does not suffer to it. Some Priority (As in Aqua Jet which can easily take it out depending on the pokes attack).

3. Grass - Grass is seriously countered by Talon, on either Flying or Fighting. Grass normally is a bad defensive type, however it suffers badly to a Fire/Flying type with priority flying moves. There are some pokes that could potentially attack it with a sash, but without one, Talon dominates most pokes. However, think if Gale Wings was banned. Some pokes (Like a scarfed Ludicolo in Rain with Swift Swim) could be able to kill it, so grass could see a little more usage. Grass would like the ban of Gale Wings.

4. Electric - Talon does not harm due to being weak to electric, as well as electric having fast pokemon such as Jolteon, Mega-Manectric, and Thundurus. Electric has limited Stealth Rock users however, but in the case of being fast, that is not an issue.

5. Fighting - Talon easily deals with pokes in a Fighting Mono. Pokes like Terrakion and Cobalion barely take one hit, but if someone was smart, they would switch out into something part Ground or Rock or whatever stalls out these pokes. Fighting has access to a lot of priority but has limited Stealth Rocks (In the form of Cobalion, which, against Fire, doesnt get its chance to set those). Fighting would like the ban of Gale Wings

6. Bug - Bug is a mixed situation. There is some priority and a couple ways of unleashing Stealth Rocks, but does not like either of Talons types. A few good pokes suffer from Fire Weakness (4X) while others suffer Flying Weakness. Armaldo does not stand up against Skarm too well. One of the major things about Bug Types tho, are the Speed Boost Yanmegas and Scolipedes. Both of these have potential to take down Flying and Fire monos, but can easily be checked and/or countered.

7. Dragon - Limited Stealth Rocks, limited priority, access to Fast Scarfers like Latios, Noivern, Salamence which can easily KO Talon. There are also limited Physical walls. I dont think there would be much change to Dragon
Flying - Flying has Stealth Rocks, only a little priority in the form of Extreme Speed Dragonite or Quick Attack Staraptor, but has quite a few walls able to withstand Talonflame as well as fast attackers. I dont think there would be as much change in Flying.

8. Ground - Ground has nothing to worry about against Talon.Packed with Walls, fast pokes, and Stealth Rocks, there is plenty of things that can beat Talon. There is only a few priority though, but overall, ground doesnt change too much.

9. Rock - Rock is very similar to ground, only even better against Talonflame. STAB 4X Effective moves kill without question unless by an extremely weak attack. Access to plenty of SR, extremely fast pokemon (or set ups like Omastar, but Omastar easily dies to Priority if at low HP), as well as Aqua Jet Kabutops. There are good walls against Talon so overall, it doesnt worry about Talon.

10. Fairy - Fairy has access to pokemon like Klefki who could set up screens to cripple Talon, as well as access to Azumarill for a Belly Drum Aqua Jet combo or just the Aqua Jet or Waterfall itself. It has few stealth rocks and few walls. There shouldnt be too much change for Fairy.

11. Steel - Steel, being a type that is weak to fire, normally looks like it would suffer, however, access to Heatran, Aegislash, and Lucario can easily deal with it by walling or outspeeding it with Priority (Extreme Speed Lucario). Steel has access to Stealth Rocks easily enough as well as priority for some pokes. Overall, it helps Steel handle Fire and
Flying better.

12. Normal - An overall versatile type. Normal doesn't suffer too many movepool restrictions, and has access to plenty of walls and Stealth Rock users. There are some fast pokes, there are also pokes like Ditto which can easily take the opponents team for the normal team user's purpose. Ditto has the option to transform into a Talonflame and take any boosts it currently has while being able to take out a lot of pokes thanks to Gale Wings. If we were to remove Gale Wings, very little would change.

13. Poison - As a whole, Poison isn't the best against Fire. Poison does have Stealth Rocks, but it is not one of the best types. It has limited walls (Although they are pretty potent) as well as limited pokes that are really fast. Crobat gets 2HKOed by Talon, and has little it can do to it. Scarfed Nidoking isnt a bad option for speed, but it gets 2HKOed by Banded Talon. One actual check to Talon would be Max DEF Weezing, as it only gets 3HKOed after Black Sludge and also has Thunderbolt. I think the removal of Gale Wings though, would help Poison shine a little more because Gale Wings easily picks off low HP things (As previously mentioned)

14. Ghost - Ghost is a type of mixed opinions for what i think would change. Ghost has access to Stealth Rocks with the handy ability of its type being immune to Rapid Spin (Though its not immune to Defog). Ghost has fast pokemon like Scarfed Gengar and Froslass, which could potentially deal with Talon MINUS the Gale Wings. True there are walls like Eviolite Dusclops, but being a Fire Type, Talon is immune to Will-o-Wisp. Toxic would be needed, and even then, Swords Dance or Bulk Up Talon can occur. Overall, ghost would benefit a little in my opinion.

15. Dark - Dark I think doesn't suffer from Talon. It has Tyranitar for rocks, Greninja for a fast Water attacker, Mandibuzz for an excellent Physical wall. Dark has priority Sucker Punch to deal with Talon to. I think overall, Talon really doesn't touch Dark too badly, so Gale Wings shouldn't change Dark too much.

16. Psychic - Psychic is an interesting type. It has plenty of options for Stealth Rocks, plenty of fast pokes to combat Talons speed, and quite a few physical walls. The only thing that I could really say that gets hurt by Talon are those Psychic Types who are unable to take a hit, such as Alakazam. Medicham doesn't like Talon too well either. I think Psychic would gain a little more usage without Talonflames Gale Wings about.

17. Ice - Ice started out as a bad type this generation. With the buffs to things like Fire and Steel, Ice has seen little to no use. It has few "viable" options to use against Talon like Weavile (Even though it can only 3HKO with Life Orb Ice Shard and is outsped by Talon) as well as Froslass (If you can try and pull a Sash D-Bond or Tbolt). There are relatively few Stealth Rock pokes and even fewer walls. In my opinion, the ban of Gale Wings wouldnt make too much of a different to ice, but it would do a little...

18. Flying - Flying is an open type. It doesnt need Talon, but uses one. It has access to plenty of Stealth Rocks, fast pokes that can easily 1HKO Talon (Without Gale Wings cuz Priority kills some pokes off easily), and has some priority. Flying can easily handle Talon So I doubt most changes would occur.

One thing to note is that I put this in a matter of perspective by what gets hurt by Talon. A type like Steel would be better against Fire or Flying by dropping Talon, but I only talked about what outright gets boosted by Gale Wings banning. Any small "This type can handle Fire and Flying" comments aren't mentioned because its an implied thing.
I will re-edit this section later if needed. But I think Im done with it. Out of the 18 types, I think 7 out of the 18 types will benefit, while only 1-2 would have lower usage if Gale Wings were banned. Those numbers aren't too big, but if it would balance out types a little, then so be it.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

Let me start this post by addressing the people who would rather see Gale Wings banned than Talonflame. The problem with this strategy is that, as an ability, Gale Wings isn't completely broken in Monotype. Earlier in the thread, somebody paralleled this with the banning of Gengarite, noting that despite Shadow Tag being what made Mega Gengar so terribly broken, it was still Gengarite that was banned. This is because the OU council did not believe that Shadow Tag as a whole was broken. The same logic can be applied here: yes, Flame Body Talonflame would still be usable in Monotype, but it's Talonflame that is broken and not Gale Wings. In the end, Talonflame is potentially broken in Monotype because of Gale Wings, but Gale Wings isn't potentially broken because there are other viable users of the ability that aren't anywhere near broken. If people want to use Gale Wings Fletchinder on Mono-Fire to strengthen their matchup against Mono-Fighting, they should be able to do that.

Now then, if someone wanted to parallel this to the Gengarnite Ban, I can say there is a huge difference. The difference being the fact that more pokemon get Shadow Tag and are able to use it without making anything "overpowered". Gale Wings is an ability strictly to the Talonflame Evolutionary Chain. Now then, should Fletchinder and Fletchling lose Gale Wings? Im my own opinion, no. However, Talonflame uses Gale Wings to its top potential. The ability to use Priority STAB (For Flying moves only) on an already extremely fast pokemon easily deals with some pokemon. However, this is Monotype. How often do you see the lower-evolutionary lines of Talon in OU Monotype? If there was some kind of LC Monotype or whatever, this should not apply, but overall, the banning of Gale Wings really only applies to Talonflame for this tier.

Finally, I want to go over the types that benefit from Talon.

Fire Type: Fire is a good type, and has been since gen 3. The addition to resisting Fairy this gen has helped improve its type chart. Fire has Heatran, two Mega-Charizards, Talonflame, Volcarona, Darmanitan, and several other viable pokemon. I think that Fire is without a doubt, one of the most Overused Types this gen. I think the removal of Gale Wings, would lower its usage easily. Fighting suffers from Priority lack but...there are 7 types that could possible benefit (Mainly three). True the types may not completely become big-shot types with Gale Wings banned, but still it would help balance things out.

Flying Type: Flying is another good type. Since it has plenty of viable options, Talon just supports it being a good type. If we were to remove Gale Wings, Flying shouldn't severely change, as Flying has enough good options to last for a long time. Several options (For reference) include but are not limited to: Dragonite, Salamence, Zapdos, Thundurus, Thundurus-Therian, Gliscor, Landorus, Landorus-Therian, Skarmory, etc.
Overall, I think the banning of Gale Wings could be a good idea. One last thing to note is that I am a Monotype player, and ive been here for longer than a year, but I am not an expert in every type, so you cannot get completely reliable information from me, I just know how to put up a reasonable argument. Also, I can get replays if someone wants.
 
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In all honestly, Talonflame should not be banned or outlawed. Why? Well let me explain in this little essay:

Talonflame is a remarkable pokemon overall, it has arguably the most beneficial ability in the game, but despite this, it comes with a ton of risk factors. It's got horrible defensive typing, its weak to electric, rock, and water, all fairly common types used in the metagame. That being said it is also extremely weak to Stealth Rock, allowing it to be crippled easily. Along with that, it's movepull is also very risky; Brave Bird and Flare Blitz both are it's best stab moves, but they come with recoil damage, crippling it even easier. Some may do Acrobatics instead, but that risk comes with the loss of its item, and it is nowhere OP without a Choice Band or Life Orb to boost its below average attack stat. You could also boost it with Swords Dance or Bulk Up, however some may find it difficult to find a free turn to set up. The things complain about Talonflame is the following; It wrecks grass, bug, ice, and fighting teams, it's too fast to revenge kill, and its just overall unfair. Below I'm going to explain each arguments the best I can.

Despite the complaints that Talonflame completely destroys 4 types of pokemon, it is easily counterable. Besides recoil and rocks damage, I know well that for grass Rotom-Mow and Tangrowth can be successful in countering it. For Fighting Cobalion to set up rocks very easily and bulk many hits and even roar it out. Bug Armaldo, Galvantula, Shuckle, and even Vivillon can easily stop Talonflame in it's tracks. Ice Avalugg can bulk its hits amazingly while Froslass can destiny bond it for an easy kill. Mamoswine, thanks to thick fat, can also be successful with a nice easy icicle crash. Now, onto the next argument, yes, it is very hard to revenge kill, but that doesn't mean it is hard to take out at all. The above points are great examples. So is Talonflame in reality unfair? Not at all! Even though it has an incredible ability, it has plenty of flaws to balance it out and make it an interesting poekon in not only the Monotype Metagame, but the OU Metagame as well.

-Note: I am a long time Monotype Player as well. So don't think I know what I'm talking about lol.
Don't Ban me plz
 
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i'm still keking at barida because literally all you need to do to stop talon on fighting is run sash breloom or terrakion
 
For Rotom-Mow and Tangrowth, Switching out is a viable option. This is OU Monotype remember. For Fire, things like Rotom-Heat deals with Rotom-Mow, and Heatran and Torkoal deal with Tangrowth, or at least are optional switches. Also anything thats is a strong special attack can take out those two. Here are some calculations:

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth in Sun: 888-1046 (219.8 - 258.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0+ Atk Tangrowth Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 68-82 (19.7 - 23.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Rotom-C Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Rotom-H: 42-51 (13.8 - 16.7%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
0+ Atk Tangrowth Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 124-148 (33.1 - 39.5%) -- 19.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Takes one hit and then does an Air Slash or Thunder Wave)
0+ Atk Tangrowth Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 34-41 (10.1 - 12.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
-1 0+ Atk Tangrowth Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 44-52 (11.5 - 13.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever (Rotom-Mow also cant touch this with electric moves)

As for Cobalion, if you want to try to set up Stealth rocks, good luck with Fire...(Also on Flying, Defog is a nice option for a Zapdos)

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion in Sun: 674-794 (174.6 - 205.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion in Sun: 426-504 (110.3 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 351-416 (90.9 - 107.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

For the bugs you mentioned, All I have to say, again, is switch. Sack something if possible for Armaldo, such as Torkoal or some other pokemon on its deathbed. Galvantula doesnt take things to well (If you managed to get rocks up on Bugs, I dont see why you would start off with Talon anyways...)

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Galvantula: 322-381 (114.5 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Galvantula Thunder vs. Landorus: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
252 SpA Galvantula Thunder vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 73-87 (22.5 - 26.8%) -- 29.5% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Galvantula Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Rotom-H: 63-75 (20.7 - 24.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

I understand some of my calc options may be questionable however, I am listing some that do work. Anyways Shuckle...just switch out into something that will take a Rollout or whatever stuff you pack on it for Talon. I don't see how Vivillion can deal with it. Just try to stealth rock before it comes and then use a Gale Wings move and gg.

When it comes to ice though, Avalugg lives a Talon, true, but think about switching into a Special Offensive Force or something that can a Rock Slide or whatever you want to try to put on it. Froslass...just sack something if possible. If it was put under stealth rocks, you can flat out kill it with Flare Blitz. The only thing I can really say that u can't easily take is Mamo, but why the hell would u go for an Ice Move and not a Rock Move first off. Anyways, if you try to go into Heatran, you can lose Air Baloon and get done in by EQ, so unless u want to risk a Choice Mamo, you would have to sack something for fire, but for Flying, If you managed to keep Skarm or Gyarados, gg Mamoswine.

i'm still keking at barida because literally all you need to do to stop talon on fighting is run sash breloom or terrakion
Tell me this, what if you put Stealth Rocks up before Breloom? You can attempt to sack something for Spore, then go back into Talon, and proceed to attack. Also Sash Terrakion...you don't know how to play Competatively if you think thats a good idea (Sashed Terrakion if you mean that)...Switching Out into something to sack is easily done if you have the right set of pokes. Go into something that takes Stone Edge, if you have one
 
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Cat, we're talking about talonflame :/ Plus for Cobalion, you need to remember it is a Physical Wall, but it can usually take torkoal hits fine if the opponent has 1. And a lot of those match ups you calculated, only a moron would do that. There are things called walls that makes it easy top switch into them and bulk hits.
 
Before I start I want to mention I am primarily a Fighting Type user, but I will try to stay away from being biased. Lately, I have been using plenty of types to ladder such as Steel, Fire, Water, Fighting, Fairy, and Flying, and I have started to look at how Talon changes the Metagame so I finally came back with my argument...



This is not entirely true. Talon still does possess speed to use against certain pokemon. As mentioned before, Flying does not need it. When it comes to fire without Talonflame, there are quite a few fast options and scarfers. Without Gale Wings, Fire would just be missing some priority. Now then, does this mean Talon is completely useless? Not a chance. Talon still has the speed to deal with certain threats, as well as the ability to run a choice item set. True about Talon being able to easily be picked off after Stealth Rocks and Priority, however, lets think about all of the types in perspective of this...



I will re-edit this section later if needed. But I think Im done with it. Out of the 18 types, I think 7 out of the 18 types will benefit, while only 1-2 would have lower usage if Gale Wings were banned. Those numbers aren't too big, but if it would balance out types a little, then so be it.




Now then, if someone wanted to parallel this to the Gengarnite Ban, I can say there is a huge difference. The difference being the fact that more pokemon get Shadow Tag and are able to use it without making anything "overpowered". Gale Wings is an ability strictly to the Talonflame Evolutionary Chain. Now then, should Fletchinder and Fletchling lose Gale Wings? Im my own opinion, no. However, Talonflame uses Gale Wings to its top potential. The ability to use Priority STAB (For Flying moves only) on an already extremely fast pokemon easily deals with some pokemon. However, this is Monotype. How often do you see the lower-evolutionary lines of Talon in OU Monotype? If there was some kind of LC Monotype or whatever, this should not apply, but overall, the banning of Gale Wings really only applies to Talonflame for this tier.

Finally, I want to go over the types that benefit from Talon.



Overall, I think the banning of Gale Wings could be a good idea. One last thing to note is that I am a Monotype player, and ive been here for longer than a year, but I am not an expert in every type, so you cannot get completely reliable information from me, I just know how to put up a reasonable argument. Also, I can get replays if someone wants.
So basically you settled that the major benefactors of T-Flame ban is bug,grass,fighting ... anyways I keep thinking of this perspective more and more. Fire and Flying mono's have a team advantage against the three listed monotypes. Are we trying to get rid of talonflame to give them a better chance? Because if that's so I can argue how it won't change the fact its more likely to lose. You can't just predict how a T-Flame ban will affect the metagame or the hundreds of players that will be blindsighted by such a ban on a forum. There's alot of theorymonning going on here but in practice talonflame isn't the monster that its painted here. This happens in every potential suspect forum , my problem with this one in particular is how underground it is and rather informal. Maybe collected opinions of top ladder players to decide if it should go to suspect. I've gone out my way to tell people about this thread though. I don't think a thread of mostly auths of main and a select handful of others should be deciding a suspect that could wind up to a ban of Talonflame or GW, which would effect so many players that were ignorant of this thread the whole time. I know you can't get the whole lot's attention ,but getting the high ladder's two cents on the cause should be a priority I managed to interview two in a matter of minutes and attract to thread. This needs to be a bit more formal and organized. Although we've made a lot of progress with this talonflame ban I'm finding that I just keep repeating myself from my first post and that people are just ignoring crucial parts to their responses. Talonflame should be put on the side imo and maybe I can get some more of the high ladder players looking here. Swift Swim though, I can't say it enough. Also if you're gonna debunk me I can't stress enough that you carefully read my first post and confront my points else this won't get anywhere. ~ Rorschach
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
*sigh*
It seems to me that people are running in circles. It has already been agreed that (outside of ferrothorn, which is shakey), none of the three types has a true Talonflame counter, being able to check at best. And yet people are still arguing as if this hasn't been decided. Would it be possible for people to read over the past three pages as a recap? Otherwise, you're just looking stupid.

If you can't be bothered to read it, then tl;dr: Grass, Bug and Fighting are almost completely destroyed by Talonflame and would be far more competitive if it were banned. We want these types to be more usable, therefore it should be banned.
Look, I'm a flying player, I want to use Talonflame, it wins games for me. Games were I get outplayed, I still win sometimes because of Talonflame. But that's exactly why it should be banned! When I get outplayed, I should lose. Of course sometimes I'll still win when I have a type advantage, but I'd rather it happened less.

But in any case, I think we can agree a conclusion won't be reached via discussion. A Suspect Test of Gale Wings Talonflame would be fair. If anyone can tell me how exactly it wouldn't be fair, speak now. It would also be simple. Swift Swim needs to be discussed, and if we deal with Gale Wings Talonflame in the next few weeks, we can then move on. There would be a simple yes or no result, which the majority of people would agree with and then get on with their lives.


So basically: Gale Wings Talonflame Suspect Test. Then move on to Swift Swim. I don't see the discussion getting us anywhere. People are running round in circles not adding anything or answering how Talon could be countered. This will get it done, fairly, and out the way.
+Death on Wings
 
It seems to me that people are running in circles. It has already been agreed that (outside of ferrothorn, which is shakey), none of the three types has a true Talonflame counter, being able to check at best.
Max defence Cradily, Crustle and Terrakion running Leftovers and Protect can all switch in and OHKO it/force it out... But yeah, that's kind of specific. Of course, monotype teams in general need to be carrying ways to beat their counters, but dedicating an entire slot just to beat Talonflame seems kind of excessive. A good benchmark for seeing if something needs to be banned is seeing if it warps the entire metagame. If Talonflame alone is making three whole types unviable then it probably needs at least a suspect test.
 
In all honestly, Talonflame should not be banned or outlawed. Why? Well let me explain in this little essay:

Talonflame is a remarkable pokemon overall, it has arguably the most beneficial ability in the game, but despite this, it comes with a ton of risk factors. It's got horrible defensive typing, its weak to electric, rock, and water, all fairly common types used in the metagame. That being said it is also extremely weak to Stealth Rock, allowing it to be crippled easily. Along with that, it's movepull is also very risky; Brave Bird and Flare Blitz both are it's best stab moves, but they come with recoil damage, crippling it even easier. Some may do Acrobatics instead, but that risk comes with the loss of its item, and it is nowhere OP without a Choice Band or Life Orb to boost its below average attack stat. You could also boost it with Swords Dance or Bulk Up, however some may find it difficult to find a free turn to set up. The things complain about Talonflame is the following; It wrecks grass, bug, ice, and fighting teams, it's too fast to revenge kill, and its just overall unfair.
Talonflame has not ever been considered to be OP and is not the reason why it has been brought up as an issue; either you assumed this and/or failed to read the rest of the Thread. It was brought up because it over-centralizes a portion of the Metagame, while having no real answers bar 2-3 Pokes out of a whole Monotype. It's Ability putting Revenge Killing out of the equation is what makes this so.

The other side has acknowledged these faults countless times and are arguing that the drawbacks it has are too easy to get over (V.s. these Types). Also, many of the drawbacks mentioned are irrelevant as these Monotypes either don't have access to them or, in Stealth Rocks case, easily cancelled.

The fact that you failed to read and comprehend the other side of the argument stands as a prime example of what not to do in this Thread.

Despite the complaints that Talonflame completely destroys 4 types of pokemon, it is easily counterable. Besides recoil and rocks damage, I know well that for grass Rotom-Mow and Tangrowth can be successful in countering it. For Fighting Cobalion to set up rocks very easily and bulk many hits and even roar it out. Bug Armaldo, Galvantula, Shuckle, and even Vivillon can easily stop Talonflame in it's tracks. Ice Avalugg can bulk its hits amazingly while Froslass can destiny bond it for an easy kill. Mamoswine, thanks to thick fat, can also be successful with a nice easy icicle crash. Now, onto the next argument, yes, it is very hard to revenge kill, but that doesn't mean it is hard to take out at all. The above points are great examples.
And that has been acknowledged. However, it was argued that it had too few. Checks, and no real Counters bar Scarf Terrakion, which cannot Switch in either so can't even be called a Counter itself. It has also been acknowledged that Talonflame itself is not broken, but that it required so little support- all you need is a Defogger and something to wear a "Check" down. This considered and the fact the Monotypes that it is allowed on naturally remove these Threats with ease is what the problem is. Now, that being said, many of you may say this:

Oh and this just popped into my head. Regarding banning talonflame for bug,grass. Those two types lose naturally to flying and fire anyways... I don't understand the big complaint that its making it unviable. ;
Although this may be so, you can't disregard the Player at a disadvantage just because they would, theoretically, "lose on paper"- the heart and soul of this Tier is to overcome that challenge. The point of Competitive Pokemon is give you a challenge. However, when something has no real Counters, a friendly competition becomes an exercise; a challenge a task. That's not the type of environment we want our players to be exposed to, and why Talonflame was brought up before Swift Swim: SS was only usable on one Monotype, whereas Talonflame was on two.

So basically, although these Monotypes do naturally beat the others, they can at least fight back- Staraptor nor Banded Entei has no real Checks in terms of Switch Ins on neither Bug nor Grass either- but the difference here is that they can be actually be Countered in Revenge Kills or stopped cold by Status. Talonflame is doesn't give the opportunity for you to Status it, and is practically immune to Revenge Killing.

This is why Talonflame should go, NOT because it is OP. If anyone else tries to argue against a Ban on the basis that it's being considered as so, your wasting your time and arguing against nothing, as no one is saying that. Please read, or at least get the basic argument of, what the other side is trying to say before you decide to make a Post, especially if your going to Reply to someone. (You know who I'm talking to)
 
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DoW has the right of it here. This discussion has been running in circles for a while now, the best course of action is probably to suspect it. We know by now what can and can't do stuff against it, let's just see how the vote turns out.
 
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The problem with a Suspect Test is that this isn't an Official Tier. I mean, I would love to have one, but this Thread just hasn't gotten enough support to resort to that. The only people actively Posting here is Articuno I, Srixis, Rorschach, Godchef, and Spark Flight. 5 people is not the ideal amount for a Suspect Test imo.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
The problem with a Suspect Test is that this isn't an Official Tier. I mean, I would love to have one, but this Thread just hasn't gotten enough support to resort to that. The only people actively Posting here is Articuno I, Srixis, Rorschach, Godchef, and Spark Flight. 5 people is not the ideal amount for a Suspect Test imo.
True, but I think if there were a Suspect Test ladder up, there would be quite a bit of interest generated from that. Also, there are a number of people posting opinions, then just lurking as they don't have much to input. Their Suspect Test votes would still be appreciated.
 
Enoch, there are plenty of users who do talk about this, they just don't post on the thread. (Im not sure if they never bothered to make an account, or bother to come up with actual reasoning behind their opinions though).
 
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