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Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]
- Thread starter ryan
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Firstly, I'm rather busy for a few weeks, so if my posts are shorter than they should be or I don't reply that doesn't mean I don't care, just that I'm busy probably.
And Kyurem-White is broken, much like Talonflame was and in many ways moreso. Sure, Sash volcarona isn't unheard of and it could revenge kill Talonflame if it ran HP rock (also not unheard of). But that didn'ts top Talonflame from being unhealthy for the metagame, so I (and many others) called for it to be banned. It even had uses outside of revenging talon, somewhat like Nidoqueen as a sash SR lead, but neither exactly does a great job. You wouldn't want to run sash volc or sash nidoqueen, because in the majority of your games they're simply not good enough to be pulling their weight. There's better pokemon that do better, such as the Lum Volc which you've used to beat me in the past, or perhaps Offensive Nidoking with SR on the side. And even when you are up against the pokemon they're meant to beat, you have to throw a poke away for them to come in, make sure their sash is intact, and then hope your opponent doesn't just see it coming and switch out anyway. And no, running certain pokes to beat one thing isn't out of the ordinary, but there's a difference between running landorus or swampert to remedy your weakness to electric in general and running a sashed poke so that you have a chance, and not even a particularly large chance, of beating it. And dragalge? That doesn't even revenge kill. You're sacking a poke, sending in dragalge to weaken it, then using that weakening to revenge it? And would it be at all usable outside of that anyway? :I
tl;dr no I'm not biased, thanks for asking.
Moving on though. I'm a little busy so sorry if I didn't get through all the replays, from what I saw though I don't really understand what your point is. From what I saw, it generally said "If someone makes a large misplay they lose, and otherwise if you're weak to ice kyu-w wins". Sorry if I'm missing the point here, and feel free to point out which replays in particular prove this notion wrong, but I can't really see anything screaming out "Kyu-W sucks". For example one replay I saw had a player using Mantyke specifically to try and beat Kyu-W, and it still lost (due in part to not playing exactly amazingly, though also to mantyke just... not being that great competitively). If there was a pokemon where you at least had the option of running something to counter it, like having gastrodon as an option to counter kyogre, that'd be one thing. But there isn't even that option with Kyurem-W. And onto the big point I've been stressing for what feels like the past six months, not that anyone's listened:
Having a revenge killer for Kyu-W isn't good enough. I mean sure, if all teams automatically carry one and you don't have to edit the team to put one on, that's one thing. See dragon teams: They play by revenge killing and the games often last 12 turns or less. That's just the way they play out due to being Super Effective and Hyper Offense much of the time, everyone's used to it and there's no disadvantage really. But Revenge Killing isn't reliable, and if you have to change your team just to add a revenge killer, that's something else. To say that all teams must now carry either a pokemon fast enough to Outspeed scarf Kyu-W or Tank a hit and OHKO back, else they auto-lose to scarf kyu-w, that's going too far. My poison stall team, for example, should be viable. Not great, by any means, nobody's claiming that. I mean, stall isn't great in monotype and there's plenty of mega medichams and things running around to ruin it. But despite that, I shouldn't have to add a single scarf or sash with the power to OHKO Kyu-W just so that I have the slightest chance to beat it. That's not how pokemon works. It completely destroys the way teams have to be put together, by just adding a single pokemon.
And more than that. As my replay earlier showed, even with a specific revenge killer, added specifically for that single pokemon, and even knowing my opponent well and outplaying him in places, I lost. Even when I'd changed my team specifically for that pokemon, and even with all those circumstances in my favour, I lost. It wasn't even a particularly unlucky game. That specific game was (IIRC) in the finals of a tournament, and I came away from it feeling like I never stood a chance of winning, whatever I'd done, however well I'd played or put together the team. And that's not how competitive pokemon is supposed to work. You know why? Because of the word Competitive. Competitive, meaning the better player should beat the worse player. Sure, flying can beat ice when the ice player makes an outright mistake and throws it away. But if both players are at a high level and the flying player outplays, chances are they still lose simply because of type advantage. If that's not uncompetitive, I don't know what is.
Again, sorry for this being a rant rather than a well thought-out argument. I'll post a proper argument later as I said, but for now please just ban this thing.
Firstly, suggesting I'm biased because I use flying. When it came to talonflame, I was using it on my flying team and I saw it was OP, so I called for it to be banned. I probably asked for it to be banned more than anyone else in this thread TBH, and while I needed to re-organise my team and my games have never been quite as easy, I was happy because it deserved to be banned and it was.
And Kyurem-White is broken, much like Talonflame was and in many ways moreso. Sure, Sash volcarona isn't unheard of and it could revenge kill Talonflame if it ran HP rock (also not unheard of). But that didn'ts top Talonflame from being unhealthy for the metagame, so I (and many others) called for it to be banned. It even had uses outside of revenging talon, somewhat like Nidoqueen as a sash SR lead, but neither exactly does a great job. You wouldn't want to run sash volc or sash nidoqueen, because in the majority of your games they're simply not good enough to be pulling their weight. There's better pokemon that do better, such as the Lum Volc which you've used to beat me in the past, or perhaps Offensive Nidoking with SR on the side. And even when you are up against the pokemon they're meant to beat, you have to throw a poke away for them to come in, make sure their sash is intact, and then hope your opponent doesn't just see it coming and switch out anyway. And no, running certain pokes to beat one thing isn't out of the ordinary, but there's a difference between running landorus or swampert to remedy your weakness to electric in general and running a sashed poke so that you have a chance, and not even a particularly large chance, of beating it. And dragalge? That doesn't even revenge kill. You're sacking a poke, sending in dragalge to weaken it, then using that weakening to revenge it? And would it be at all usable outside of that anyway? :I
tl;dr no I'm not biased, thanks for asking.
Moving on though. I'm a little busy so sorry if I didn't get through all the replays, from what I saw though I don't really understand what your point is. From what I saw, it generally said "If someone makes a large misplay they lose, and otherwise if you're weak to ice kyu-w wins". Sorry if I'm missing the point here, and feel free to point out which replays in particular prove this notion wrong, but I can't really see anything screaming out "Kyu-W sucks". For example one replay I saw had a player using Mantyke specifically to try and beat Kyu-W, and it still lost (due in part to not playing exactly amazingly, though also to mantyke just... not being that great competitively). If there was a pokemon where you at least had the option of running something to counter it, like having gastrodon as an option to counter kyogre, that'd be one thing. But there isn't even that option with Kyurem-W. And onto the big point I've been stressing for what feels like the past six months, not that anyone's listened:
Having a revenge killer for Kyu-W isn't good enough. I mean sure, if all teams automatically carry one and you don't have to edit the team to put one on, that's one thing. See dragon teams: They play by revenge killing and the games often last 12 turns or less. That's just the way they play out due to being Super Effective and Hyper Offense much of the time, everyone's used to it and there's no disadvantage really. But Revenge Killing isn't reliable, and if you have to change your team just to add a revenge killer, that's something else. To say that all teams must now carry either a pokemon fast enough to Outspeed scarf Kyu-W or Tank a hit and OHKO back, else they auto-lose to scarf kyu-w, that's going too far. My poison stall team, for example, should be viable. Not great, by any means, nobody's claiming that. I mean, stall isn't great in monotype and there's plenty of mega medichams and things running around to ruin it. But despite that, I shouldn't have to add a single scarf or sash with the power to OHKO Kyu-W just so that I have the slightest chance to beat it. That's not how pokemon works. It completely destroys the way teams have to be put together, by just adding a single pokemon.
And more than that. As my replay earlier showed, even with a specific revenge killer, added specifically for that single pokemon, and even knowing my opponent well and outplaying him in places, I lost. Even when I'd changed my team specifically for that pokemon, and even with all those circumstances in my favour, I lost. It wasn't even a particularly unlucky game. That specific game was (IIRC) in the finals of a tournament, and I came away from it feeling like I never stood a chance of winning, whatever I'd done, however well I'd played or put together the team. And that's not how competitive pokemon is supposed to work. You know why? Because of the word Competitive. Competitive, meaning the better player should beat the worse player. Sure, flying can beat ice when the ice player makes an outright mistake and throws it away. But if both players are at a high level and the flying player outplays, chances are they still lose simply because of type advantage. If that's not uncompetitive, I don't know what is.
Again, sorry for this being a rant rather than a well thought-out argument. I'll post a proper argument later as I said, but for now please just ban this thing.
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Right, we've been playing a lot of mono-OM tours in the room recently, and I just wanted to use this post to try and spark some discussion into what people thought was maybe a little broken or OP in these OM's, because I know a lot of people enjoy them and if we can balance them, they'll be even more enjoyable still!
NOTE: This is not a petition to ban stuff, just a chance to give some insight into what could be seen as a little too powerful
Mono Ubers
Yeah I'll start with the big one, mono-Ubers is very unbalanced at the moment, with the tours being dominated by Flying and Dragon, with occasional Fire, Water, Psychic and Dark teams showing their strength too. While in every mono-OM there will always be those types that are stronger, this is more than that. Dragon gets an all star lineup of Rayquaza / Palkia / Dialga / Giratina forme / Reshiram / Zekrom / Kyurem-White to pick from, while Flying, an already very strong and diverse type in standard play, gets access to Shaymin-S / Yveltal / Ho-oh / Lugia / Rayquaza to beef up their teams. There is the argument that this is Ubers and this is the tier that's supposed to be unbalanced so I'd really appreciate some thoughts on this one.
Mono STABmons
I've heard a lot of complaints towards Normal spam in this meta, as types that don't have access to bulky resists can often find themselves overcome by the Extreme Speed that this type carries in abundance, everything else seems fairly balanced.
Mono TS, AAA and Hidden Type
Everything seems to be fine here, bulky Psychic is strong in TS but that can largely be kept in check.
If you feel I missed any OM's out, just post your thoughts about them. Also if you don't think we should be trying to balance these OM's and should just leave them free for want of not overcomplicating, please say, want as many opinions as possible.
NOTE: This is not a petition to ban stuff, just a chance to give some insight into what could be seen as a little too powerful
Mono Ubers
Yeah I'll start with the big one, mono-Ubers is very unbalanced at the moment, with the tours being dominated by Flying and Dragon, with occasional Fire, Water, Psychic and Dark teams showing their strength too. While in every mono-OM there will always be those types that are stronger, this is more than that. Dragon gets an all star lineup of Rayquaza / Palkia / Dialga / Giratina forme / Reshiram / Zekrom / Kyurem-White to pick from, while Flying, an already very strong and diverse type in standard play, gets access to Shaymin-S / Yveltal / Ho-oh / Lugia / Rayquaza to beef up their teams. There is the argument that this is Ubers and this is the tier that's supposed to be unbalanced so I'd really appreciate some thoughts on this one.
Mono STABmons
I've heard a lot of complaints towards Normal spam in this meta, as types that don't have access to bulky resists can often find themselves overcome by the Extreme Speed that this type carries in abundance, everything else seems fairly balanced.
Mono TS, AAA and Hidden Type
Everything seems to be fine here, bulky Psychic is strong in TS but that can largely be kept in check.
If you feel I missed any OM's out, just post your thoughts about them. Also if you don't think we should be trying to balance these OM's and should just leave them free for want of not overcomplicating, please say, want as many opinions as possible.
I agree with DM35 that this Thread can and should also be used to discuss the sub-Metas (sub-sub-Metas? lol) of the Monotype Tier. Monotype is generally a static Tier, however one could approach another Meta using Pokemon that all share the same Type and find themselves immersed in a refreshing Metagame that is a separate entity on it's own. This overall broadens the Monotype Tier and opens the door for various possibilities, and overall enhances the Monotype experience as a whole. We should discuss those Metagames amongst ourselves here and help out people
Some sub-Metas of Monotype that I am really enjoying are AAA Monotype, Tier Shift Monotype, and Monotype Doubles. Each of these Metas gives Lower Tiered Types such as Grass (AAA), Ice (Tier Shift), Rock and Electric (Doubles).
DM, you already know my opinion on ubers, but I'll post here because this is a topic that warrants some discussion. Ubers should just be left alone imo; the tier isn't meant to be balanced and the sub-set of types you mentioned are really the ones that people will be playing on a routine basis because they have access to a number of uber 'mons. We do not do this often enough to warrant restrictions that make the types w/o many uber options viable in the meta.
I have yet to play a stabmons tour, so I'm not the best resource; but, from what I've seen, diggersby is the real monster w/ the ability to setup and sweep w/ an effective x8 attack stat. Something should be done in this area and the community should provide the input!!! (no one is replying right now guys)
As for the other 3, I don't see much of a problem. I have won every TS tour I played w/ SS water (even w/o damp rock), but its certainly beatable.
Yeah, Diggers is a HUGE problem, especially with its ORAS tutor moves.
Fire Punch (beats Skarm, Ferro, M-Scizor, Gourgeist, etc.)
Ice Punch (beats Gliscor, Lando-T, Gourgeist, and Trevenant)
Gunk Shot (doesn't beat much)
Iron Head (same)
Superpower (beats Ferro)
And the real biggie...
Knock Off (beats Gourgeist, Trevenant, and EVERY GHOST LOOKING TO SWITCH INTO AN E-SPEED)
Ice Punch (beats Gliscor, Lando-T, Gourgeist, and Trevenant)
Gunk Shot (doesn't beat much)
Iron Head (same)
Superpower (beats Ferro)
And the real biggie...
Knock Off (beats Gourgeist, Trevenant, and EVERY GHOST LOOKING TO SWITCH INTO AN E-SPEED)
Hm, I don't think it gets Thousand Arrows or Extreme Speed in Monotype. Was this meant for STABmons?
Edit: Oh you meant Mono STABmons. Duh.
In that case, we need to do something about Normal-types in MonoSTAB. Even before ORAS.
Honestly, with the plethora of moves normal type gets in STABmons, including, but not limited to, Shell Smash, Belly drum, Baton Pass, Lovely Kiss, Boomburst, Fake Out, Extremespeed, Head Charge and milk drink/softboiled/slack off/recover, I believe the best course of action would be to ban normal as a type in Mono STABmons/STABmono or whatever the flip it's called now. With no types except Ghost and Steel being able to handle the pressure of six Espeeders, six boombursters or a combination of both, it isn't competitively viable to keep it in the tier.
In regard to Mono Ubers, there's been some discussion about Arceus and its distribution. It is a fantastic utility mon, regardless of the type, and having it on a team can go a long way to helping combat the dominance of Flying/Dragon/Psychic, especially for types that may be a little lacking in the ubers department. Giving it free reign across all types seems like the most sensible plan.
More action may be needed here to balance this one further, because I don't believe it should be left in the current state. Unfortunately, I don't have any ideas on how.
In regard to Mono Ubers, there's been some discussion about Arceus and its distribution. It is a fantastic utility mon, regardless of the type, and having it on a team can go a long way to helping combat the dominance of Flying/Dragon/Psychic, especially for types that may be a little lacking in the ubers department. Giving it free reign across all types seems like the most sensible plan.
More action may be needed here to balance this one further, because I don't believe it should be left in the current state. Unfortunately, I don't have any ideas on how.
Is there no discussion about the new mega's and move tutors at all? Things like Mega Mence, Knock Off Diggersby, Mega Metagross and Gunk Shot Greninja look very promising. Psychic gets 3 awesome mega's (Meta, Slowbro, Gallade) and Mega Altaria and Mega Salamence are good competition for Zard as the mega on flying, while Normal finally gets a mega. I will make a longer post later this evening about my thoughts of the new mega's and the impact on the monotype metagame but don't have more time atm
I guess i'll post my thoughts about the Psychic megas first, since there are a lot of them.
Mega Latias
Trait: Levitate
80 / 100 / 120 / 140 / 150 / 110
Mega Latias gets significant boosts to its defenses, which will make it an even better pivot for Psychic teams. I feel like Mega Latias won't do as much as Mega Latios will for Dragon Teams, so that's not what i'll discuss. However, on Psychic teams, Mega Latias will become a very difficult Pokemon to cripple. If it's supported with Heal Bell from an ally Pokemon, for example Mew, it may become very difficult to kill, since toxic poison is useful for wearing this Pokemon down. Furthermore, with access to Draco Meteor and Psyshock as its 2 main STAB attacks, it will be able to deal significant damage to the opponent, having a base Special Attack stat of 140, reaching 416 Special Attack with a Modest Nature and 379 without a Sp. Atk boosting nature.
Of course, with the usage of Mega Latias, Healing Wish will not be seen as often, as wasting a mega slot for something with a suicide move seems pointless.
Mega Latios
Trait: Levitate
80 / 130 / 100 / 160 / 120 / 110
Mega Latios will become an incredible attacker for both Psychic Monotype and Dragon Monotype. Having a whopping base 160 Special Attack, reaching 460 Sp. Atk with a Sp. Atk boosting nature and 416 without, Mega Latios should be capable of 2HKOing anything that doesn't have Sp. Def investment with 2 Draco Meteors, factoring in the Sp. Atk drop. Furthermore, Psyshock allows it to deal large damage to special walls, and having access to a wide array of moves, there will be very little capable of taking a hit from Mega Latios. Furthermore, Dragon Monotypes will definitely be using this mega, as Mega Garchomp poses little significance to a Dragon Monotype.
Mega Slowbro
Trait: Shell Armor
95 / 75 / 180 / 130 / 80 / 30
Mega Slowbro will be a rather troublesome Pokemon. Having a whopping 180 base Physical Defense, it only needs to switch into a physical attacker that doesn't hit it super effectively and it's in practically for free. OU has a lot of answers to this, but in monotype, Mega Slowbro will be an incredibly large threat. Thanks to its access to Calm Mind, not only will it be able to raise special bulk, but also its own Special Attack, and then it can proceed to use Scald and Ice Beam to deal heavy damage. Slack Off is a very reliable recovery move, which will allow it to get its HP back very quickly. Ground and Rock monotypes in particular will have trouble dealing with this mega, as they don't have many special attackers to check Slowbro. Toxic is their only hope.
Mega Gallade
Trait: Inner Focus
68 / 165 / 95 / 65 / 115 / 110
Mega Gallade is going to be an extremely good physical attacker for the Psychic and Fighting monotypes, simply because it learns Swords Dance. A Mega Gallade will have 858 Attack, without an attack increasing nature. Furthermore, because it has access to Knock Off, Rock Slide, etc., Flying and Ghost will be unable to check this Pokemon without a fast one of their own. Having 110 base speed, it will be able to outpseed a large amount of Pokemon that aren't Scarfed. There is very little else to be said about this Pokemon. Nothing can switch into it, and that goes especially for Monotype.
Mega Metagross
Trait: Tought Claws
80 / 145 / 150 / 105 / 110 / 110
Well, it does have fearful stats on paper. 145 Attack with Tough Claws and 110 Speed is definitely something to fear. However, due to Metagross' lack of good set-up moves, it shouldn't as hard to deal with as some other megas. Power-up Punch, Hone Claws and a possible Attack boost from Meteor Mash is really all the attack boosting Metagross can do, although Agility will provide an incredibly large boost to its speed. Futhermore, thanks to its rather large increase in bulk, Metagross is capable of living at least one hit, even if it's SE, aside from a boosted Pokemon. Therefore, it is able to set up at least one boost and hit the opponent hard with a good STAB move. Of course, if it's using Power-up Punch, it will also have to sacrifice a move slot for Bullet Punch, so it can finish off any faster Pokemon than itself. If it's running Agility, it's likely to run Earthquake that KOs many of its checks.
Of course, this is all strictly theoretical. I haven't been able to try all of these mega-evolutions out yet, though I am doing so when I can. I can't say for sure what i'd like to be banned, either. However, i've given thoughtful analasys to what could be the most threatening things about these Pokemon.
Mega Latias
Trait: Levitate
80 / 100 / 120 / 140 / 150 / 110
Mega Latias gets significant boosts to its defenses, which will make it an even better pivot for Psychic teams. I feel like Mega Latias won't do as much as Mega Latios will for Dragon Teams, so that's not what i'll discuss. However, on Psychic teams, Mega Latias will become a very difficult Pokemon to cripple. If it's supported with Heal Bell from an ally Pokemon, for example Mew, it may become very difficult to kill, since toxic poison is useful for wearing this Pokemon down. Furthermore, with access to Draco Meteor and Psyshock as its 2 main STAB attacks, it will be able to deal significant damage to the opponent, having a base Special Attack stat of 140, reaching 416 Special Attack with a Modest Nature and 379 without a Sp. Atk boosting nature.
Of course, with the usage of Mega Latias, Healing Wish will not be seen as often, as wasting a mega slot for something with a suicide move seems pointless.
Mega Latios
Trait: Levitate
80 / 130 / 100 / 160 / 120 / 110
Mega Latios will become an incredible attacker for both Psychic Monotype and Dragon Monotype. Having a whopping base 160 Special Attack, reaching 460 Sp. Atk with a Sp. Atk boosting nature and 416 without, Mega Latios should be capable of 2HKOing anything that doesn't have Sp. Def investment with 2 Draco Meteors, factoring in the Sp. Atk drop. Furthermore, Psyshock allows it to deal large damage to special walls, and having access to a wide array of moves, there will be very little capable of taking a hit from Mega Latios. Furthermore, Dragon Monotypes will definitely be using this mega, as Mega Garchomp poses little significance to a Dragon Monotype.
Mega Slowbro
Trait: Shell Armor
95 / 75 / 180 / 130 / 80 / 30
Mega Slowbro will be a rather troublesome Pokemon. Having a whopping 180 base Physical Defense, it only needs to switch into a physical attacker that doesn't hit it super effectively and it's in practically for free. OU has a lot of answers to this, but in monotype, Mega Slowbro will be an incredibly large threat. Thanks to its access to Calm Mind, not only will it be able to raise special bulk, but also its own Special Attack, and then it can proceed to use Scald and Ice Beam to deal heavy damage. Slack Off is a very reliable recovery move, which will allow it to get its HP back very quickly. Ground and Rock monotypes in particular will have trouble dealing with this mega, as they don't have many special attackers to check Slowbro. Toxic is their only hope.
Mega Gallade
Trait: Inner Focus
68 / 165 / 95 / 65 / 115 / 110
Mega Gallade is going to be an extremely good physical attacker for the Psychic and Fighting monotypes, simply because it learns Swords Dance. A Mega Gallade will have 858 Attack, without an attack increasing nature. Furthermore, because it has access to Knock Off, Rock Slide, etc., Flying and Ghost will be unable to check this Pokemon without a fast one of their own. Having 110 base speed, it will be able to outpseed a large amount of Pokemon that aren't Scarfed. There is very little else to be said about this Pokemon. Nothing can switch into it, and that goes especially for Monotype.
Mega Metagross
Trait: Tought Claws
80 / 145 / 150 / 105 / 110 / 110
Well, it does have fearful stats on paper. 145 Attack with Tough Claws and 110 Speed is definitely something to fear. However, due to Metagross' lack of good set-up moves, it shouldn't as hard to deal with as some other megas. Power-up Punch, Hone Claws and a possible Attack boost from Meteor Mash is really all the attack boosting Metagross can do, although Agility will provide an incredibly large boost to its speed. Futhermore, thanks to its rather large increase in bulk, Metagross is capable of living at least one hit, even if it's SE, aside from a boosted Pokemon. Therefore, it is able to set up at least one boost and hit the opponent hard with a good STAB move. Of course, if it's using Power-up Punch, it will also have to sacrifice a move slot for Bullet Punch, so it can finish off any faster Pokemon than itself. If it's running Agility, it's likely to run Earthquake that KOs many of its checks.
Of course, this is all strictly theoretical. I haven't been able to try all of these mega-evolutions out yet, though I am doing so when I can. I can't say for sure what i'd like to be banned, either. However, i've given thoughtful analasys to what could be the most threatening things about these Pokemon.
Normal finally gets a Knock Off Resist / Immunity with Audino and Lopuny :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Slowbro will be cancer to HO Monotype Teams
Mence will get banned
Altaria's lacking :[
Gallade may outclass Medicham in Fighting because of its speed and Psycho Cut + Close Combat
Metagross may be Aegislash 2.0 with its neutrality to Fighting.
Swampert will be a pretty good Knock Off absorber / Rock setter. RIP Dank Rock.
Sableye's not going to be used alot
Lati@s, pls ban.
More later :P
Slowbro will be cancer to HO Monotype Teams
Mence will get banned
Altaria's lacking :[
Gallade may outclass Medicham in Fighting because of its speed and Psycho Cut + Close Combat
Metagross may be Aegislash 2.0 with its neutrality to Fighting.
Swampert will be a pretty good Knock Off absorber / Rock setter. RIP Dank Rock.
Sableye's not going to be used alot
Lati@s, pls ban.
More later :P
I agree with Mega Slowbro being a huge threat because set up is easier as pokemon that give it trouble can be killed by things like Latios
Mega Sableye is,an interesting new mega. It was already viable without its mega and the only other option for ghost was Banette, which is pretty bad. IIRC T-Tar was the only mega for dark and with Greninja getting Gunk Shot go kill fairies, Dark will grow in popularity
Normal didn't have a mega at all and Mega Lopunny and Knock Off Diggersby helps Normal a lot vs. ghost teams. The offensive pressure things like Mega Lopunny, Staraptor, P-Z etc. is really nice but still not seeing normal as one of the best types
Flying and Dragon both get Altaria and Salamence. I think Salamence won't be long in the meta, but Altaria is a nice addition.
Mega Swampert is nice, but not awesome outside of rain. With Damp Rock gone I only see it work if you equip Rain Dance on Swamp itself, and that sucks as it cost coverage. Still very frightening
Mega Glalie: I encounter Mono Ice surprisingly often and I have seen 2 kinds.of teams. One is a team made around a Kyurem W sweep with things like Froslass and screens Rotom-Frost. With Mega Glalie you have priority, a powerful attack that can kill threats to Kyurem W (explosion) and other supportive moves. Might be pretty useful
Mega Sableye is,an interesting new mega. It was already viable without its mega and the only other option for ghost was Banette, which is pretty bad. IIRC T-Tar was the only mega for dark and with Greninja getting Gunk Shot go kill fairies, Dark will grow in popularity
Normal didn't have a mega at all and Mega Lopunny and Knock Off Diggersby helps Normal a lot vs. ghost teams. The offensive pressure things like Mega Lopunny, Staraptor, P-Z etc. is really nice but still not seeing normal as one of the best types
Flying and Dragon both get Altaria and Salamence. I think Salamence won't be long in the meta, but Altaria is a nice addition.
Mega Swampert is nice, but not awesome outside of rain. With Damp Rock gone I only see it work if you equip Rain Dance on Swamp itself, and that sucks as it cost coverage. Still very frightening
Mega Glalie: I encounter Mono Ice surprisingly often and I have seen 2 kinds.of teams. One is a team made around a Kyurem W sweep with things like Froslass and screens Rotom-Frost. With Mega Glalie you have priority, a powerful attack that can kill threats to Kyurem W (explosion) and other supportive moves. Might be pretty useful
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Nah there's still Houndoom and Absol, but T-tar's the best imo.
To me, Ghost 100% needs priority Will-o-Wisp since most of its mons are so frail.
I personally think that Normal became one of the best types this gen. P2 / Chansey and BulkyRaptor wall every Mega except Metagross. Even so, Ditto can clean up if it tries to set up.
Galie's still bad since it's so slow and sucky typing. I guess it can be a wallbreaker but idk ?.?
Mega Diance should be standard on Rock from now on because it outspeeds Keldeo and Terrakion. It also says fuck you to Cobalions w/o Iron Head
Forgot about Houndoom and Absol, just like the new Sharpedo, but neither of the 3 are good enough to take the mega over T-tar and Sableye (however both are still great outside mega)
The speed tier of Diancie is indeed nice as you iutspeed things like Keldeo, Char, MegaMedi (won't be that common though) and kill it before it can hit you. Speed tieing with Gengar and Lati@s is very nice too
(also MegaRay Delta Stream => Ice = 2x)
hey everyone kinda need all your help, doesn't matter how small comment or not any advise is thanked.
so there is this pokemon society at our college thats trying to gain some recognition and what not, so they decided to create entire armada of boss trainers. meaning they are going the whole 9 yards of making the pokemon league possible in real life. 8 gym leaders, the elite 4, and a champion. they already got the elite 4 and the champion, but they need gym leaders to help complete the set. thats where i come in. they are holding a competition to determine who the gym leaders will be and i plan on being one of those leaders. i know i have the skill, the thing i lack though is guidance and facts.
the rules are simple. come up with a team of pokemon of a single type in the same fashion as the gym leaders from the games(double typing and megas allowed) and beating your oppents to a pulp till your out on top. I've decided to go with steel. (secretly I'm hoping to be know as "the Steel King" among this particular group for more than one reason) i wanted to go with dragon because I've got a beast Garchomp that could easily lead a team, but 4 other people chose dragon so I'm doing steel instead. however i am lost at making my team. not only have I've never worked with a full steel team before, but I've only just recently gotten back into pokemon so my known facts about the game, especially competitive battling, is rusty at best.
so thats where you guys come in. i need help putting together a team of steel-oriented pokemon for this event. which pokemon should i use? what move sets and ev-spreads should i use? any tips and tricks you can enlighten me on? is anyone willing to train me to become familiarized with formed team and understanding its strengths and weaknesses? any kind of help will be appreciated.
if anyone thinks this could become a bigger thing and might need its own thread then please direct me to where i should post this. otherwise fire away with the advise! :)
so there is this pokemon society at our college thats trying to gain some recognition and what not, so they decided to create entire armada of boss trainers. meaning they are going the whole 9 yards of making the pokemon league possible in real life. 8 gym leaders, the elite 4, and a champion. they already got the elite 4 and the champion, but they need gym leaders to help complete the set. thats where i come in. they are holding a competition to determine who the gym leaders will be and i plan on being one of those leaders. i know i have the skill, the thing i lack though is guidance and facts.
the rules are simple. come up with a team of pokemon of a single type in the same fashion as the gym leaders from the games(double typing and megas allowed) and beating your oppents to a pulp till your out on top. I've decided to go with steel. (secretly I'm hoping to be know as "the Steel King" among this particular group for more than one reason) i wanted to go with dragon because I've got a beast Garchomp that could easily lead a team, but 4 other people chose dragon so I'm doing steel instead. however i am lost at making my team. not only have I've never worked with a full steel team before, but I've only just recently gotten back into pokemon so my known facts about the game, especially competitive battling, is rusty at best.
so thats where you guys come in. i need help putting together a team of steel-oriented pokemon for this event. which pokemon should i use? what move sets and ev-spreads should i use? any tips and tricks you can enlighten me on? is anyone willing to train me to become familiarized with formed team and understanding its strengths and weaknesses? any kind of help will be appreciated.
if anyone thinks this could become a bigger thing and might need its own thread then please direct me to where i should post this. otherwise fire away with the advise! :)
You're better off in the Monotype room if you want to get help with teambuilding.
i was told to put it here but ok, link? i kant seem to find it
Yea that was something i meant to tag onto my post, you are more than welcome to discuss the new megas here, although for those reading (as the posts on this subject have already been very good), please try and focus your posts on what the new megas can do in Monotype and how they will help their team rather than going mega salamence looks so cool/broken and adding no basis.
I for one think that out of all those so far, audino-mega could be quite the staple for normal mono's in time to come, the hunk has played several games against me with it, and not only have i found it nigh unbreakable, it provides normal with a solid knock off absorber which when the backbone tends to consist of chansey and pory2, is more than appreciated. Ally that alongside a support movepool rivalling chansey in that it has access to heal bell and wish, and you can see the addition it could make to normal. Truly a threat that snuck under the radar, but one I believe we'll be seeing a lot more of soon.
EDIT: Also you say mega-diancie to be a staple for rock... aren't you forgetting a certain metallic bug?
EDIT 2 cos I keep forgetting to add stuff: If my ORAS OU experiences are anything to go by, Mega Latias is godly, such nice bulk and offensive presence w/out recoil.
I for one think that out of all those so far, audino-mega could be quite the staple for normal mono's in time to come, the hunk has played several games against me with it, and not only have i found it nigh unbreakable, it provides normal with a solid knock off absorber which when the backbone tends to consist of chansey and pory2, is more than appreciated. Ally that alongside a support movepool rivalling chansey in that it has access to heal bell and wish, and you can see the addition it could make to normal. Truly a threat that snuck under the radar, but one I believe we'll be seeing a lot more of soon.
EDIT: Also you say mega-diancie to be a staple for rock... aren't you forgetting a certain metallic bug?
EDIT 2 cos I keep forgetting to add stuff: If my ORAS OU experiences are anything to go by, Mega Latias is godly, such nice bulk and offensive presence w/out recoil.
How about heading over to our Good Cores thread to get started! Once you have built a team, we will gladly help you test it and improve your battling skills in the monotype room on PS!. If you want any more help before coming, Anttya's Viability Rankings are also an excellent resource.
ok, here you go mate: http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype
edit: grammar
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Well, more opinions on megas, doing normal today.
Mega Audino
Trait: Healer
103 / 60 / 126 / 80 / 126 / 50
Well, Audino has always been a great NU tank, but now that it has a mega with a fairy typing, it now takes neutral damage to fighting. Furthermore, having access to an insane amount of support moves such as Wish, Heal Bell, Encore, Dual Screens, Yawn and Knock Off, it'll be a significant wall and a great member for a Normal Monotype. Also, it may be possible for it to use a Calm Mind set with Hyper Voice and Dazzling Gleam, with Wish to restore HP, although it will need a large amount of Calm Minds up before it can dish out noticeable damage.
Mega Lopunny
Trait: Scrappy
65 / 136 / 94 / 54 / 96 / 135
Mega Lopunny will provide the Normal Monotype with a decent counter to Ghost. Scrappy allows its Return and High Jump Kick to hit ghost types, which will finally neutralize normal's weakness to Aegislash. It will also be able to use Power-up Punch to raise its Attack, which may make it powerful enough to achieve a sweep, provided it doesn't get KO'd first due to its lack of good bulk. Also, it doesn't have the largest of movepools, which hinders it.
Mega Pidgeot
Trait: No Guard
83 / 80 / 80 / 135 / 80 / 121
Well, No Guard allows Pidgeot to hit Hurricane in any scenario, making it a fairly large special threat. It also has coverage with Heat Wave to check Steel Types, and doesn't have all too bad bulk. However, even though it has large Special Attack, Speed and access to Hurricane, it's still not one of the better mega-evolved Pokemon because of its limited movepool. Hopefully, we'll get some tutor moves added to Pidgeot, but if not, we may have to deal with mixed Pidgeot or Work Up Pidgeot.
Mega Audino
Trait: Healer
103 / 60 / 126 / 80 / 126 / 50
Well, Audino has always been a great NU tank, but now that it has a mega with a fairy typing, it now takes neutral damage to fighting. Furthermore, having access to an insane amount of support moves such as Wish, Heal Bell, Encore, Dual Screens, Yawn and Knock Off, it'll be a significant wall and a great member for a Normal Monotype. Also, it may be possible for it to use a Calm Mind set with Hyper Voice and Dazzling Gleam, with Wish to restore HP, although it will need a large amount of Calm Minds up before it can dish out noticeable damage.
Mega Lopunny
Trait: Scrappy
65 / 136 / 94 / 54 / 96 / 135
Mega Lopunny will provide the Normal Monotype with a decent counter to Ghost. Scrappy allows its Return and High Jump Kick to hit ghost types, which will finally neutralize normal's weakness to Aegislash. It will also be able to use Power-up Punch to raise its Attack, which may make it powerful enough to achieve a sweep, provided it doesn't get KO'd first due to its lack of good bulk. Also, it doesn't have the largest of movepools, which hinders it.
Mega Pidgeot
Trait: No Guard
83 / 80 / 80 / 135 / 80 / 121
Well, No Guard allows Pidgeot to hit Hurricane in any scenario, making it a fairly large special threat. It also has coverage with Heat Wave to check Steel Types, and doesn't have all too bad bulk. However, even though it has large Special Attack, Speed and access to Hurricane, it's still not one of the better mega-evolved Pokemon because of its limited movepool. Hopefully, we'll get some tutor moves added to Pidgeot, but if not, we may have to deal with mixed Pidgeot or Work Up Pidgeot.
for normal
Mga pidgeot is a very good addition as not only does it outspeed and destroy all fighting types (read non scarfed) with its stab no guard hurricane, its access to heatwave allows it to aid normal in its fight vs steel as once heatran is gone, steel lacks many good checks to fire type moves and seeing as diggersby anyways can threaten steel a lot (just run life orb + wild charge skarm on the switch guaranteed 2hko) in all mega pidgey is like a poor mans tornadus t but as we know in monotype errything is good.
Mega Audino: This pokemon is godly. it is knock off absorber, fighting types worst nightmare and is one of the only reasons calm mind mega sableye does not sweep mono normal. Apart from that it eases the pressure on pory2 vs dragon and acts as a solid pokemon in 9/10 match ups (steel ruins it) and all in all can be a burden to take down if you are not packing high powered moves. Also playing around with a cm + wish + 2 attacks setis nice as long as you know when to set up as it can be taken out by stronger hits
Mega Lopunny: This diva is good for normal vs steel but i feel a bit underwhelming as any good normal player knows that diggersby is aegis worst nightmare partly because it cannot tank anything from diggersby. Add knick off to its moveset mono ghost is going to be hard pressed to stop a core of the two bunnies from having their way with steel. Otherwise mega lopunny creates a lot of diversity for normal allowing it to reliably beat non scarf terrakions with ease.
Now onto the new other additions
Mslowbro- CM rest 4 dayz it really is broken and on the other hand we can run scipinions evil asf set of amnesia+iron defense and just watch shit crumble as u use scald + rest to outstall opponents
M Lat@s: these two are both amazing in their own way ;). But no for real mlatiass is the real threat due to its amazing bulk plethora of set up options + access to recovery i can see it being a pain in the ass to deal with as long as it can remain healty (ez pz use recover) and mlatios is also dangerous with its mixed attacking stats but i feel regular life orb latios is better due to the fact that it does not waste a mega slot and still retains similar offensive presence
(Calculations done adjusted latios special attack to 160 for mlatios calcs)
252+ SpA Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 222-262 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (m latios)
252+ SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 247-292 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (normal life orb latios)
Seeing as almost always they will have the same offensive presence, i do not feel latios is viable enough for psychic as it has mega gallade (moster after sd) and mega slowbro to compete with aswell as mlatiiass.
Now onto the underloved megas:
Mega Altaria: This mother is a boon for all dragon monos as not only does it add unprecedented bulk (i mean cmon its got to off the best types in the game!) it can be a dangerous set up sweeper thanks to pixilate + ddance and reliable recovery. Apart from that it can take the role of a bulky status remover/spreader as it can toxic walls that plague dragon types and its access to heal bell mens that dragon types are nto fully crippled.
Secondly i would like to turn the houses attention to MEGA MOTHERFUCKING SALAMENCE....
This thing is a complete monster and it rapes allmost all monos with its standard ddance + stabs thanks to aerialate giving it return to spam for dayz.
Like it has zero counters as if it goes mixed mega mence then it single handedly beats steel as eq + fire blast= rip any steel type core especially considering its amazing stats across the board including a lot of bulk gone are the days of b rank mega mence. Lastly pls dun ban
Now onto MEGASHREK Beedrill
This thing is the definition of hyper offensive pivot as thanks to its amazing base attack, speed and ability, it hits like a T-82 and i mean it. Mostly running u-turn/poison jab to annoy the crap out of people by switching out and poisoning things (cough 30% is the new 100) and it breaks the fuck out of most offenive cheks as they cannot switch in and even if they do this thing u-turns on their face. apart from that i feel this is a good new addition to the poison meta if they wanna run something with a bit more OOMPH as scoli + mbeedril= nightmare.
Last for now
mega metagross: This thing in theory is really good but i dont like its practical usage as its really good or really bad will comment later
Mga pidgeot is a very good addition as not only does it outspeed and destroy all fighting types (read non scarfed) with its stab no guard hurricane, its access to heatwave allows it to aid normal in its fight vs steel as once heatran is gone, steel lacks many good checks to fire type moves and seeing as diggersby anyways can threaten steel a lot (just run life orb + wild charge skarm on the switch guaranteed 2hko) in all mega pidgey is like a poor mans tornadus t but as we know in monotype errything is good.
Mega Audino: This pokemon is godly. it is knock off absorber, fighting types worst nightmare and is one of the only reasons calm mind mega sableye does not sweep mono normal. Apart from that it eases the pressure on pory2 vs dragon and acts as a solid pokemon in 9/10 match ups (steel ruins it) and all in all can be a burden to take down if you are not packing high powered moves. Also playing around with a cm + wish + 2 attacks setis nice as long as you know when to set up as it can be taken out by stronger hits
Mega Lopunny: This diva is good for normal vs steel but i feel a bit underwhelming as any good normal player knows that diggersby is aegis worst nightmare partly because it cannot tank anything from diggersby. Add knick off to its moveset mono ghost is going to be hard pressed to stop a core of the two bunnies from having their way with steel. Otherwise mega lopunny creates a lot of diversity for normal allowing it to reliably beat non scarf terrakions with ease.
Now onto the new other additions
Mslowbro- CM rest 4 dayz it really is broken and on the other hand we can run scipinions evil asf set of amnesia+iron defense and just watch shit crumble as u use scald + rest to outstall opponents
M Lat@s: these two are both amazing in their own way ;). But no for real mlatiass is the real threat due to its amazing bulk plethora of set up options + access to recovery i can see it being a pain in the ass to deal with as long as it can remain healty (ez pz use recover) and mlatios is also dangerous with its mixed attacking stats but i feel regular life orb latios is better due to the fact that it does not waste a mega slot and still retains similar offensive presence
(Calculations done adjusted latios special attack to 160 for mlatios calcs)
252+ SpA Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 222-262 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (m latios)
252+ SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 247-292 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (normal life orb latios)
Seeing as almost always they will have the same offensive presence, i do not feel latios is viable enough for psychic as it has mega gallade (moster after sd) and mega slowbro to compete with aswell as mlatiiass.
Now onto the underloved megas:
Mega Altaria: This mother is a boon for all dragon monos as not only does it add unprecedented bulk (i mean cmon its got to off the best types in the game!) it can be a dangerous set up sweeper thanks to pixilate + ddance and reliable recovery. Apart from that it can take the role of a bulky status remover/spreader as it can toxic walls that plague dragon types and its access to heal bell mens that dragon types are nto fully crippled.
Secondly i would like to turn the houses attention to MEGA MOTHERFUCKING SALAMENCE....
This thing is a complete monster and it rapes allmost all monos with its standard ddance + stabs thanks to aerialate giving it return to spam for dayz.
Like it has zero counters as if it goes mixed mega mence then it single handedly beats steel as eq + fire blast= rip any steel type core especially considering its amazing stats across the board including a lot of bulk gone are the days of b rank mega mence. Lastly pls dun ban
Now onto MEGA
This thing is the definition of hyper offensive pivot as thanks to its amazing base attack, speed and ability, it hits like a T-82 and i mean it. Mostly running u-turn/poison jab to annoy the crap out of people by switching out and poisoning things (cough 30% is the new 100) and it breaks the fuck out of most offenive cheks as they cannot switch in and even if they do this thing u-turns on their face. apart from that i feel this is a good new addition to the poison meta if they wanna run something with a bit more OOMPH as scoli + mbeedril= nightmare.
Last for now
mega metagross: This thing in theory is really good but i dont like its practical usage as its really good or really bad will comment later
Mega Pidgeot will probably do well, but I worry a little about coverage still. Heat Wave+Roost/U-turn+Hurricane+HP of Choice can really only do so much, I still wish Game Freak had decided to give it Focus Blast, that would have pushed it over the top. That said, it'll probably do as stated above: absolutely wreck Fighting Monos without Scarf users.
I actually seem to think that Mega Metagross will do well, Jolly with Hone Claws will let it hit a bit harder (and with what, 145 Base Attack, 150 Defense, the still workable 80 HP, a now-respectable 110 Special Defense, and 110 Speed? It'll outspeed most non-Scarf users/unboosted Pokemon, and have the natural bulk to shrug off most neutral hits.
145 Base Attack is nothing to sniff at (Pokemon with less Attacking stats and less bulk run sets with NO Buffing moves), and it's major Attacks like Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt are going to LOVE the Accuracy boost, bringing them up from shaky, to a pretty sure thing. While yes, we might still see the Agility set, I don't see it being common considering it kind of beats the Base 100 Speed tier which sets the "fast" apart from the "slow" in most OU-oriented Metas (yes, this is not OU, but some basic things still stand true) by a noticeable amount. It may not give Steel or Psychic anything they NEED, but it IS a fun toy to play around with.
Mega Slowbro. Honestly, I had my doubts about the Ability, but Arceus above the Stats are wonderful, and Crit Immunity means it CAN indeed set up Calm Mind/Amnesia as long as it has to with no fear. The only issue will be choosing whether to go full Defensive with Amnesia and Toxic... and whether to run Calm Mind+Slack Off with Scald and a Psychic STAB. Or whether to use Slack Off or Rest, Slack Off gives you the "no downsides to the two down turns" but leaves you wide open to being whittled down with Status. Either way it's probably going to run a Bold 252HP+Defense sort of set.
Mega Beedrill. Might be fun, but overall something tells me Bug will prefer Heracross or Pinsir for their Mega Slots. That said, a Fell Stinger with Adaptability intrigues me, might be fun to try, even if it's about as situational as they come.
The analysis on Mega Audino intrigues me, it always came off as a Doubles oriented Mega to me, how it plays in Singles will be fun to see.
That said, some of these Pokemon might not perform the same in Monotype as in other Tiers and Games such as the OU Ladder, as some of them may require support that their personal Monotype just can't offer. But I think that most of them may find a role here.
Also, other fun news, Physical Greninja may see a bit of play now that it gets Ice Punch as a Tutor Move, and while it may not give it a major buff, Flygon with Boomburst shall become a thing. I doubt it'll give Mono Ground or Mono Dragon anything they didn't have before, but it's something to consider when contemplating our new ORAS toys.
I actually seem to think that Mega Metagross will do well, Jolly with Hone Claws will let it hit a bit harder (and with what, 145 Base Attack, 150 Defense, the still workable 80 HP, a now-respectable 110 Special Defense, and 110 Speed? It'll outspeed most non-Scarf users/unboosted Pokemon, and have the natural bulk to shrug off most neutral hits.
145 Base Attack is nothing to sniff at (Pokemon with less Attacking stats and less bulk run sets with NO Buffing moves), and it's major Attacks like Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt are going to LOVE the Accuracy boost, bringing them up from shaky, to a pretty sure thing. While yes, we might still see the Agility set, I don't see it being common considering it kind of beats the Base 100 Speed tier which sets the "fast" apart from the "slow" in most OU-oriented Metas (yes, this is not OU, but some basic things still stand true) by a noticeable amount. It may not give Steel or Psychic anything they NEED, but it IS a fun toy to play around with.
Mega Slowbro. Honestly, I had my doubts about the Ability, but Arceus above the Stats are wonderful, and Crit Immunity means it CAN indeed set up Calm Mind/Amnesia as long as it has to with no fear. The only issue will be choosing whether to go full Defensive with Amnesia and Toxic... and whether to run Calm Mind+Slack Off with Scald and a Psychic STAB. Or whether to use Slack Off or Rest, Slack Off gives you the "no downsides to the two down turns" but leaves you wide open to being whittled down with Status. Either way it's probably going to run a Bold 252HP+Defense sort of set.
Mega Beedrill. Might be fun, but overall something tells me Bug will prefer Heracross or Pinsir for their Mega Slots. That said, a Fell Stinger with Adaptability intrigues me, might be fun to try, even if it's about as situational as they come.
The analysis on Mega Audino intrigues me, it always came off as a Doubles oriented Mega to me, how it plays in Singles will be fun to see.
That said, some of these Pokemon might not perform the same in Monotype as in other Tiers and Games such as the OU Ladder, as some of them may require support that their personal Monotype just can't offer. But I think that most of them may find a role here.
Also, other fun news, Physical Greninja may see a bit of play now that it gets Ice Punch as a Tutor Move, and while it may not give it a major buff, Flygon with Boomburst shall become a thing. I doubt it'll give Mono Ground or Mono Dragon anything they didn't have before, but it's something to consider when contemplating our new ORAS toys.
Yeah I've been really underwhelmed by Mega Metagross, anything bulky it can't hit hard with it's STABs can generally do work on it, read here Skarmory, Mandibuzz to an extent and p. much every bulky steel that isn't massively weak to Earthquake. On the subject of Earthquake, it's sad that it doesn't get boosted by Tough Claws, because without the boost it's fairly easy to shake an Earthquake off thanks to a lack of boosting item. Then there's the 4MSS, imo Meteor Mash and Earthquake are mandatory, leaving 2 slots for elemental punches(in particular Ice), Grass Knot(boosted by ability and beats slowbro), secondary STAB, priority in Bullet Punch and the problem is, dropping any of these either mean you're walled by something common, or are susceptible to revenge killers. A threat for sure, but not in the same class as mega mence.
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