It is ranked D because it is an inferior toxapex.
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Resource Monotype USM Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Eien
- Start date
Tentacruel is ranked low because it's role as a special wall is outclassed by Muk-Alola, and as a bulky user of Scald+Haze by Toxapex. The only niche I see it having is Rapid Spin which is decent role compression, but most teams want Crobat for a ground-immunity anyway, and run Defog on that.
Isnt skuntank an inferior muk alola then? and you just said that crobat uses defog, so you wont need skuntank for that. Lets say put skuntank to D then.
Exca, that would be true if the listed set was being used strictly as an inferior Toxapex, but it has multiple things differentiating itself from Toxapex. First of all, Tentacruel is hazard control that does not get rid of your own rocks. That is very helpful on more offensive poison builds that want to keep their own rocks up but would prefer not to give certain hazard stacking types (e.g. steel and bug) the liberty to set their hazards with impunity. In addition, liquid ooze punishes Ferrothorn and Celesteela (and whatever they switch out into, scald is very spammable) for leech seeding every time they enter the field (Venusaur hardly punishes them, they can just switch into something else), and both are easily worn down without that recovery. In addition, Tentacruel is able to break through Pokemon like Sableye-Mega with acid spray (it can't spin in the ghost match up so it's less important there, and it forces switches on dark which makes for easy scalds) without worrying AS MUCH about getting its item knocked off (like Nidoking) or just sending the game into a war of attrition (like Toxapex). Toxapex is definitely a better hazer (I would probably run toxic spikes or maybe even ice beam over haze on Tentacruel, depending on team comp). Tentacruel is definitely not an A rank (probably not even a B rank), but it does have a useful niche as hazard control and as a stallbreaker on offensive teams that would prefer not to give up their own hazards. C rank definitely seems better for it than D rank on Poison though, because it certainly does have a more effective niche than the other D ranks. Also worth noting that some speed would probably be ideal, Tentacruel has a beautiful base 100 speed tier, so it doesn't have to invest a whole lot to reach certain milestones.
Even if it does stay D rank, it wouldn't be fair to call it an inferior toxapex because they are not doing the same thing. One is a role compression of hazard control and a stallbreaker, the other just walls and uses toxic spikes. (I am not trying to sound like I'm underselling toxapex, I'm just trying to highlight notable differences between the two that make it irresponsible to reduce tentacruel to "an inferior toxapex")
I will admit that Tentacruel can offer some utility. It's fast enough to haze Azumarill, scald burn Diggersby, and can spin away hazards. But it is outclassed by other poison types which makes it a niche choice at best- the definition of D-rank.
Toxapex resists any attacks from non-earthquake Celesteela. It can likely get a scald burn to reduce output from heavy slam and can regen health lost to leech seed. Venusaur acts as a better check to wall variants of Celesteela:
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 84-100 (23 - 27.4%) -- 66.1% chance to 4HKO
Venusaur is also immune to leech seed and can leech seed Celesteela itself. Nidoking can finish it off at ~half health with flamethrower.
Toxapex has access to reliable recovery and is more defensive overall. Regenerator is a fantastic ability that prevents it from getting worn down as easily as Tentacruel does, and recovery lets it win PP wars. As a hazard remover it's outclassed by Crobat, which offers vital ground immunity, recovery, and utility with either U-Turn or Taunt (and Haze). You can argue that rapid spin is better on offensive poison teams, but poison is not a good offensive typing. I also fail to see what aside from liquid ooze makes it a stallbreaker when Crobat and even eviolite Golbat can roost, taunt, and super fang. Acid spray to stallbreak, I guess, denies the ability to wear down walls by spreading status, which is a great way to bolster poison's offensive core. What hurts Tentacruel the most is that it has a hard time fitting into a poison type team. Almost everything on poison has a well-defined role. Switching out Toxapex for it means that I lose the ability to wall so many threats, and losing Crobat means that I have no ground immunity.
Dropping Skuntank is fine. Muk, Gengar, and Scolipede are better answers to psychic types and I'd argue that Golbat, which it shares a ranking with, is better at hazard control anyways.
As for comparing Tentacruel to the rest of C-rank, I think Golbat is a better form of hazard control and adaptability draco meteors are nice. Keep it D rank.
Toxapex resists any attacks from non-earthquake Celesteela. It can likely get a scald burn to reduce output from heavy slam and can regen health lost to leech seed. Venusaur acts as a better check to wall variants of Celesteela:
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 84-100 (23 - 27.4%) -- 66.1% chance to 4HKO
Venusaur is also immune to leech seed and can leech seed Celesteela itself. Nidoking can finish it off at ~half health with flamethrower.
Toxapex has access to reliable recovery and is more defensive overall. Regenerator is a fantastic ability that prevents it from getting worn down as easily as Tentacruel does, and recovery lets it win PP wars. As a hazard remover it's outclassed by Crobat, which offers vital ground immunity, recovery, and utility with either U-Turn or Taunt (and Haze). You can argue that rapid spin is better on offensive poison teams, but poison is not a good offensive typing. I also fail to see what aside from liquid ooze makes it a stallbreaker when Crobat and even eviolite Golbat can roost, taunt, and super fang. Acid spray to stallbreak, I guess, denies the ability to wear down walls by spreading status, which is a great way to bolster poison's offensive core. What hurts Tentacruel the most is that it has a hard time fitting into a poison type team. Almost everything on poison has a well-defined role. Switching out Toxapex for it means that I lose the ability to wall so many threats, and losing Crobat means that I have no ground immunity.
Dropping Skuntank is fine. Muk, Gengar, and Scolipede are better answers to psychic types and I'd argue that Golbat, which it shares a ranking with, is better at hazard control anyways.
As for comparing Tentacruel to the rest of C-rank, I think Golbat is a better form of hazard control and adaptability draco meteors are nice. Keep it D rank.
I did not say Toxapex and Venusaur don't check Celesteela, I claimed that Tentacruel punishes Celesteela for clicking Leech Seed while the other two don't. Celesteela will never stay in on Venusaur unless it is running Air Slash (I mean I get that steel has issues with ground, but really, AV?), so Venusaur wouldn't get to click Leech Seed against Celesteela. There is nothing really punishing Celesteela for clicking Leech Seed against a team with just Venusaur, but if it clicks Leech Seed and Tentacruel comes in, whatever Celesteela goes into to try and avoid getting whittled down will continue to lose health from the mistake of clicking Leech Seed against a team with Tentacruel. For variants of Celesteela lacking Earthquake, there is no negative to bringing in Tentacruel. I did explicitly mention in my previous post that avoiding sending the game into a war of attrition (as Toxapex often does for the things it checks) is one of the reasons why someone could opt for Tentacruel over Toxapex.
Also, check out some of Bit's games with offensive poison, the archetype functions fine, AND it doesn't call for 60 turn games. If for some reason you deemed it necessary, giving an Air Balloon to Tentacruel gives it a one-time ground immunity and it's actually capable of punishing the ground moves it switches into unlike Crobat (and for Pokemon other than Diggersby which can easily spam frustration against poison, Landorus-I which Crobat fails to beat many variants of, Choice Banded Excadrill, and SD Garchomp which is in the same boat as Landorus-I, Venusaur already acts as a check. And for all of these Pokemon (other than Diggersby) , slapping an Air Balloon onto Tentacruel on an offensive team is more likely to be effective in stopping the threat than Crobat is).
Also, spamming Adaptability Draco Meteors does absolutely nothing for poison as the types that aren't capable of one shotting Dragalge before it gets off the Draco Meteor are types Poison is already beating or have moderately effective switch ins to the attack. Golbat is an inferior Crobat that is easily taunted and takes the same hits that one of either Venusaur or Crobat do (and without the loss of momentum!). So frankly, Tentacruel is more useful than either of the two for actually accomplishing something other poison types don't (getting rid of opposing hazards without getting rid of your own).
It absolutely can't be fit into balanced poison, as I implied in my previous post and throughout this one, but it has a niche on offensive poison (which as Bit has demonstrated to some degree is a viable archetype).
Also, check out some of Bit's games with offensive poison, the archetype functions fine, AND it doesn't call for 60 turn games. If for some reason you deemed it necessary, giving an Air Balloon to Tentacruel gives it a one-time ground immunity and it's actually capable of punishing the ground moves it switches into unlike Crobat (and for Pokemon other than Diggersby which can easily spam frustration against poison, Landorus-I which Crobat fails to beat many variants of, Choice Banded Excadrill, and SD Garchomp which is in the same boat as Landorus-I, Venusaur already acts as a check. And for all of these Pokemon (other than Diggersby) , slapping an Air Balloon onto Tentacruel on an offensive team is more likely to be effective in stopping the threat than Crobat is).
Also, spamming Adaptability Draco Meteors does absolutely nothing for poison as the types that aren't capable of one shotting Dragalge before it gets off the Draco Meteor are types Poison is already beating or have moderately effective switch ins to the attack. Golbat is an inferior Crobat that is easily taunted and takes the same hits that one of either Venusaur or Crobat do (and without the loss of momentum!). So frankly, Tentacruel is more useful than either of the two for actually accomplishing something other poison types don't (getting rid of opposing hazards without getting rid of your own).
It absolutely can't be fit into balanced poison, as I implied in my previous post and throughout this one, but it has a niche on offensive poison (which as Bit has demonstrated to some degree is a viable archetype).
I would like to submit myself to possible ridicule, for I am to seek council in order to put Chatot in the rankings. Although its weak defenses are clear, the power that Chatter provides through Chatot has all been agreed on to be OP. What it lacks in defense, it makes up in sheer power, and is a powerful offense that deserves at least a D Rank in either Normal/Flying.
Can't tell whether you're joking or not.
STAB Boomburst isn't enough to make base 92 SpA high enough to call "Sheer Power". Chatot struggles from the problem of being both slow and frail (its speed tier is really lacking in the long run) and its power isn't that overwhelmingly high either to make up for it. Chatter is a weak move whose only advantage is guaranteed confusion; however, especially with the Gen 7 nerf to confusion which got even Swagger unbanned, this is not worth the ridiculous support required to make Chatot do anything at all. Without Life Orb or Choice Specs, Chatot is really lacking in power, and without Choice Scarf, it is too slow to do much against offense. Not to mention even Scarf Chatot gets outsped by almost every other common Scarfer such as Terrakion, Nihilego, Kyurem-B, Latios, Victini and Jirachi. Finally, Normal and Flying are both known for being pretty limited on teamslots, especially Normal (there's a reason 90% of Normal teams look the same) and there are just way too few reasons to use Chatot over other options, be it as Scarfer, breaker or support Pokémon.
My nomination for bug mono is Illumise to go from unranked to >D
Now, before you scroll past thinking this is a joke, bear with me...
Illumise and Volbeat are the only bug types with Prankster and that's where they find their niche (i recomend Illumise over Volbeat as Illumise has higher special attack, just thought I'd get that out of the way).
Illumise has access to a HUGE amount of supporting moves such as Tailwind, Wish, Thunder Wave, Heal Bell. etc. All of which are bug types only access to prankster.
Personally though I have found a trap staller to be it's best set though. It is the only bug Pokemon with access to prankster; roost, toxic, encore and infestation.
Have a problem with a Pokemon setting up? Hit it with an infestation and encore and that Pokemon is dead and there's nothing the other trainer can do (unless it's a steel type with leftovers or a dark type) and even if not used to encore a set up Mon if you can switch it into a weaker neutral move then you can toxic and roost your way to that pokemons death. Especially when equipped with leftovers.
Illumise does have its weaknesses, mainly high attacking mons and stone edge will often one shot it. Seriously give it a go, it's a lot of fun and can mean deaths of any stealth rock users and any set up sweepers so long as you can predict moves reasonably well.
Now, before you scroll past thinking this is a joke, bear with me...
Illumise and Volbeat are the only bug types with Prankster and that's where they find their niche (i recomend Illumise over Volbeat as Illumise has higher special attack, just thought I'd get that out of the way).
Illumise has access to a HUGE amount of supporting moves such as Tailwind, Wish, Thunder Wave, Heal Bell. etc. All of which are bug types only access to prankster.
Personally though I have found a trap staller to be it's best set though. It is the only bug Pokemon with access to prankster; roost, toxic, encore and infestation.
Have a problem with a Pokemon setting up? Hit it with an infestation and encore and that Pokemon is dead and there's nothing the other trainer can do (unless it's a steel type with leftovers or a dark type) and even if not used to encore a set up Mon if you can switch it into a weaker neutral move then you can toxic and roost your way to that pokemons death. Especially when equipped with leftovers.
Illumise does have its weaknesses, mainly high attacking mons and stone edge will often one shot it. Seriously give it a go, it's a lot of fun and can mean deaths of any stealth rock users and any set up sweepers so long as you can predict moves reasonably well.
It should stay unranked. Here's why;
1) Tailwind and Twave
Bug has better ways speed control, strong priority users like pinsir mega and scizor, galvantula with sticky web help to the whole team and volcarona can set up quiver dance , that renders tailwind useless. Twave is slightly better since it grants a small chance of paralyze effect to gain free turns, homewer speed creep itselt wont affect priority users.
2) Wish
Wish support is a risky gameplay for bug types , considering their weakness to entry hazards and illumise's low hp / defense stats makes the wishpassing predictable.
3) Defog
Bug has access to better hazard removals, mainly armaldo which also grants stealth rock , knock off and fire neutrality to avoid autolosing vs some types.
4) Infestation/Encore
This combo will most likely never work vs good players. On a case where you encore on the set up move, players will switch out before you get chance to hit encore. And most players would know that illumise carries encore so not everyone will set up in front of it anyway. As for infestation, illumise is not bulky to outstall something purely out of infestation, you could die very easily.
5) Taunt
Taunt exists and will most likely force you out , considering you'd need to max your hp and a defense stat which will leave your spatk at 182, that will hit to absolutely nothing.
6) Team Slot
Illumise itself doesnt offer anything offensively, also has a very poor defense and cannot be really replaced with any other pokemon in any bug type team.
TL;DR : Illumise in practice doesnt actually provide anything to bug teams, Its low defenses will weaken the team in general, its offensive is nearly nonexistent and its utility is outclassed by better pokemons in the teams. It also doesnt help bug in anyway to beat types it normally struggles against.
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Personally I have found tailwind to be very useful within a bug team, although this is mainly my experience I have found it means my team can outspeed scarf users and it means that slow bug types such as Araquanid can sweep (I run band on it just for this purpose) however I now use other mons for tailwind and even then only in curtain circumstances. So... that didn't really mean anything XD
However much I would agree that Illumise is not tanky enough to stall with infestation alone i also run toxic on it. Although many Pokemon are immune to toxic i have found illumise able to outstall certain Pokemon as Noivern and Greninja without encoring them into a set up move. This is in practice and not maths, I don't know what their EV spread was and such.
Although I do admit most people should switch out, many don't. And even if they do switch out you're causing free damage onto anything that comes out and have stopped a potential set up sweep. As well as U turn I have found to be useful opening as it means I can bring Illumise in against things I know will attempt to set up, Dragon Dance and such on Dragon teams
Also, who really knows how an Illumise is set up? How many times have you seen Illumise competitively? Perhaps my luck with Illumise is down to people simply not knowing how illumise runs. As well as opening with infestation if possible so as to stop switching. I will admit, I believed this to have been a long shot XD I just found the set up to be rather entertaining and very useful on my team.
I cleaned up the thread because of the recent Unranked---->D post frenzy
There's been a lot of uninformed unranked posts a quick reminder just because a Pokemon has a small niche and is awful in every aspect. Just because you've personally had success with a sub-optimal Pokemon doesn't mean it should be ranked at all. If there are any other misinformed Unranked---->D posts they will be deleted especially those based on personal experience or with little substance. This is your warning!
The long overdue update is coming soon as well
There's been a lot of uninformed unranked posts a quick reminder just because a Pokemon has a small niche and is awful in every aspect. Just because you've personally had success with a sub-optimal Pokemon doesn't mean it should be ranked at all. If there are any other misinformed Unranked---->D posts they will be deleted especially those based on personal experience or with little substance. This is your warning!
The long overdue update is coming soon as well
Well, as a fairy user near the top of the ladder (#4 as of writing), I’d like to make a nom.
Whimsicott (Fairy) D > C
Whimsicott @ Darkinium Z / Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Encore
- U-turn / Tailwind
- Memento
Now let’s get something straight. Whimsicott is certainly not the best option. But this set is useful, Unlike base Diancie, and I believe it is on par with other C-Rank mons. This set provides a decent STAB Moonblast, stall and set up breaking with prankster encore, U-Turn pressure or alternatively speed control with prankster tailwind. Then there’s the star of the set, prankster Z Memento, which has the effect of a Memento and a healing wish combined. This can bring back a crippled teammate, or set up into a sitrus azumarill sweep. Best part is, even if you don’t want to use your z move on whimsicott, Give it a leftovers, Memento and then Normalium Z Azu sweep. I believe this mom is worthy of c rank for these reasons.
EDIT; Regarding the Pikachu thing, I really don’t think it’s that bad. I’m all for a d or c rank for that thing and the OP presented it well.
Whimsicott (Fairy) D > C
Whimsicott @ Darkinium Z / Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Encore
- U-turn / Tailwind
- Memento
Now let’s get something straight. Whimsicott is certainly not the best option. But this set is useful, Unlike base Diancie, and I believe it is on par with other C-Rank mons. This set provides a decent STAB Moonblast, stall and set up breaking with prankster encore, U-Turn pressure or alternatively speed control with prankster tailwind. Then there’s the star of the set, prankster Z Memento, which has the effect of a Memento and a healing wish combined. This can bring back a crippled teammate, or set up into a sitrus azumarill sweep. Best part is, even if you don’t want to use your z move on whimsicott, Give it a leftovers, Memento and then Normalium Z Azu sweep. I believe this mom is worthy of c rank for these reasons.
EDIT; Regarding the Pikachu thing, I really don’t think it’s that bad. I’m all for a d or c rank for that thing and the OP presented it well.
Hey Drifting, welcome to smogon! Regarding your nomination, could you state WHY Whimsicott should be ranked C because in your post you just explained what the set does( which most of the people know already) and I feel that is not adequate at all, explain how Whimsicott has a unique niche that puts it on par with other C rank Pokemon on the VR. VR is all about comparison. Also your personal achievement on the ladder has nothing to do with VR or a nomination to get considered. All the best!
I’ve been on forums for 2 years and Showdown for 3 but thanks anyway.
And I included ladder just to show I’m not some uninformed scrublet who started playing in USUM and can’t break 1200.
But to the main point, Whimsicott’s niche is incapacitating set up users, healers, and any not attacking mons. Alternatively you can Z Memento, and cripple offensive mons. Both of these options provide a free switch into another mon to set up or sweep with, be it with Memento or a U-Turn after a successful encore, And Memento gives the mon you switch into a full heal, a second wind really.
Speaking of U-turn, It gives you some momentum if you predict a switch, and that isn’t hard after a good encore. Alternatively, use tailwind, and make playstyles like webs irrelevant, as well as letting your hard hitters outspeed their threats.
Moonblast/Grass STAB isn’t the strongest, but it does a good bit of damage, especially when it’s SE. And with your spread, you won’t be taking much either.
I’m on mobile so I’ll end here, I might add calcs later.
I don't have an opinion about your submission, but this point in particular is wrong, I'd like to point smub's post explaing why Decidueye rose to B rank
Bringing this back up again because I think it genuinely deserves the rank up.
Mega Latios UR (Dragon) => D (Dragon)
M-Latios isn’t the best dragon mega at all but to say it doesn’t offer a good amount of benefits in some matchups is insane. Steel / Poison are still a semi annoying matchup for dragon even with Chomp / Band D-Nite / Kommo, And M-Latios basically makes those matchups hard to lose. It also isn’t a dead weight in every matchup imo. It sports pretty good bulk that can’t be ignored just because it’s mega is outclassed by it’s base form.
Show my man M-Latios some love bois
Mega Latios UR (Dragon) => D (Dragon)
M-Latios isn’t the best dragon mega at all but to say it doesn’t offer a good amount of benefits in some matchups is insane. Steel / Poison are still a semi annoying matchup for dragon even with Chomp / Band D-Nite / Kommo, And M-Latios basically makes those matchups hard to lose. It also isn’t a dead weight in every matchup imo. It sports pretty good bulk that can’t be ignored just because it’s mega is outclassed by it’s base form.
Show my man M-Latios some love bois
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I hate to be that guy but:
Why would you give up the almost mandatory dragon asset of scarf Latios, when you could just use mega latias instead?
Until there’s a big, new answer to this question, the opportunity cost is simply too high.
Let me start off by saying I’m nominating this for D rank, so I completely agree it is far from the best mega and Scarf Lati is definitely a better set to use.
That being said, M-Lati has a good niche of giving dragon a better matchup vs iffy matchups, and isn’t terrible overall. I also disagree with the opportunity cost being too high when running M-Lati over Scarf Lati. Dragon has several options at Scarf that aren’t Lati, such as Latias, Hydregion, Chomp, or even Kyurem-B. They might not be the best scarfer like Lati is but they’re still good for teams that call for them.
The thing is that D-Ranks are supposed to have a small but unique niche that might make them worth using on highly specialized teams. The matchups that Mega Latios is supposed to help in are ones that I could honestly say are extremely easy for Dragon as is (Steel, Poison, or even Water lacking Azumarill). I would rather just use normal Latios with or without Choice Scarf on any Dragon Team and run Megas that can help in harder matchups. The whole "rank it for the sake of ranking it" has never been how the VR has worked. You could make a team around Mega Latios but is it really worth it? I would atleast like to see some replays or sample sets that show Mega Latios filling a unique and useful niche that can't be done better by other Dragons.
Yeah OK, but why not just use regular latios, and have a mega latias. That way you can use the amazing scarf latios, and also have a mega which is almost literally a clone of mega latios
Er...Mega Latias does something different than Mega Latios. Mega Latias should run Calm Mind + Stored Power to help aid the Normal, and in theory the Fairy matchup while the Mega Latios set in question is like Hidden Power Fire and Earthquake to be Steel killer which helps a lot on Psychic-type teams. Dragon does not need another way to murder Steel- or Poison-types and its niche is simply non-existent. It should stay unranked on Dragon since it does not help in any bad matchups and does not overall add anything to Dragons.
Mega Latias and Mega Latios are two different beasts. Mega Latias acts more as a bulky setup sweeper w/ CM and Stored Power, aiding in the Normal and Fairy matchups, while Mega Latios functions better as an All out Attacker. The option to use Mega Latios at all falls to a couple of factors, with one of them being a lure to defensive checks in Tyranitar, Heatran, and Alolan-Muk, while also threatening Mega Lopunny, Mega Diancie, and opposing Latios by bluffing Choice Scarf at base form. A second reason to use Mega Latios over regular are the vast options at your disposal. Just because it functions primarily as a Steel killer, does not necessarily mean it has to be built like one, especially when you have teammates such as Garchomp, Kommo-o, Dragonite and co. that threaten Steel-types fine on their own. Other options such as BoltBeam can make the Flying matchup much harder, while Thunder Wave can provide solid support against revenge killers and setup sweepers such as Greninja and Double Dance Mew. While it has just a niche, the fact that it is very effective at the role it does, with access to many more options, makes Mega Latios an explorable option that can be mended to account for weaknesses in a Dragon team (one that I believe is underrated and underused), and should at least have the D ranking.
Besides this, a nom of my own: Tornadus-T: C -> B.
It's something that has proven to be more popular as of late, having great utility in forming offensive VoltTurn cores on Flying teams, Knock Off, and works as an offensive Defogger, which is coupled with solid offensive/defensive stats and a remarkable speed tier for its type. A combination of these traits, as well as access to Regenerator, allows Tornadus-T to act as a solid offensive pivot. Having Tornadus-T around to act as an offensive Defogger also frees moveslots for teammates, allowing Zapdos to utilize Sub/Toxic sets, or Skarmory to run Stealth Rock or Spikes. Because of the role compression that it offers for Flying teams, I believe that it deserves a rise, and at the very least, should be looked into.
Besides this, a nom of my own: Tornadus-T: C -> B.
It's something that has proven to be more popular as of late, having great utility in forming offensive VoltTurn cores on Flying teams, Knock Off, and works as an offensive Defogger, which is coupled with solid offensive/defensive stats and a remarkable speed tier for its type. A combination of these traits, as well as access to Regenerator, allows Tornadus-T to act as a solid offensive pivot. Having Tornadus-T around to act as an offensive Defogger also frees moveslots for teammates, allowing Zapdos to utilize Sub/Toxic sets, or Skarmory to run Stealth Rock or Spikes. Because of the role compression that it offers for Flying teams, I believe that it deserves a rise, and at the very least, should be looked into.
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Oh... My bad I guess. I mean the fact that I have no idea what MLatios does sorta speaks for itself when I’ve played monotype for 3 years.
Anyway, as other posters acknowledge, dragon already does great in the matchups MLatios aids, and scarf Latios is just so good, not to mention an additional opportunity cost of a better Dragon mega. I see this thing stauing unranked.
Let me give my two cents on this Mega Latios is as useful as special wall Goodra stuff.
So far the main arguments I've seen people give to raise Mega Latios to D are the matchups it helps in, specifically Poison, Steel, and to some extent Flying with its BoltBeam coverage.
Let's start with Poison. Honestly Dragon does not struggle with Poison at all. You basically just have to remove Muk-A and soften up stuff like Pex before starting to clean/sweep with Scarf Latios or maybe Mega Latias. (Oh wait? What do I notice? Both of these are suddenly no longer options when running Mega Latios!) This is easier on paper than in practice, but Garchomp is able to cleanly OHKO Muk-A with Earthquake while the constant pressure applied by teammates quickly puts it into KyuB Earth Power range, and unlike with Chomp, Crobat does not want to switch into KyuB to absorb the Ground move at all. Scarf Latios is imo better at this than Mega Latios as it is able to outspeed Crobat to dodge its Brave Bird, UTurn or whatever other move, as well as the Poison team's Scarfer, while its only advantage is not being as reliant on its teammates to remove molten lollipop boi and needing a liiittle less chip on the Poison team.
Onto Steel. Steel Killer M-Tios sounds fine, but I honestly question why you would use it when Dragon already has these great Steel Killers already. KyuB with Earth Power+HP Fire+Fusion Bolt rips apart every single mon on it while Garchomp gradually breaks open the defensive mons with Earthquake+Fire Blast. That's not even mentioning other potential Steel Killers like Hydreigon and Kommo-O. Adding another one just feels like a a waste of a teamslot.
Finally, I've seen someone notice that BoltBeam M-Ios can apparently beat Flying. Let's ignore the fact that EQ/HPFire/TBolt/IBm Latios runs no STAB and look at the effect of BoltBeam on the Flying team itself. BoltBeam to break Flying... Where have I heard that before... Oh wait, it's literally what KyuB is supposed to do. I guess being able to more comfortably switch into Mantine's Scald and being able to outspeed max speed Zapdos to avoid potential Discharge paralysis (or Heat Wave burns) is nice, but Zapdos rarely runs max speed anyways. Imo mons like the aforementioned KyuremB and other stuff like Garchomp already improve the Flying matchup enough to make M-Ios not worth the teamslot most of the time. Outspeeding Landorus-I is not relevant enough.
Also, Mega Latios barely threatens Mega Diancie at all other winning the speed tie to deal chip with Earthquake (or Surf/HP Steel if you have that) as it gets OHKOed by Moonblast. If you have to rely on speed ties to even be able to pose a threat at all then you're not a good threat.
As for Thunder Wave, I'm honestly more tempted to run a Thunder Wave+Roost+2 Attacks Mega Latias set along with Scarf Latios instead of the reverse. What is Megatios even going to TWave, it would rather just attack everything in sight.
Tl;dr Mega Latios' small niches over other mons that do similar things are not worth the opportunity cost of forfeiting a borderline S Rank mon and two very good A Rank mons (or C rank Mega Chomp if you're into that, which honestly also sounds like a better Steel killer than Mega Tios.)
So far the main arguments I've seen people give to raise Mega Latios to D are the matchups it helps in, specifically Poison, Steel, and to some extent Flying with its BoltBeam coverage.
Let's start with Poison. Honestly Dragon does not struggle with Poison at all. You basically just have to remove Muk-A and soften up stuff like Pex before starting to clean/sweep with Scarf Latios or maybe Mega Latias. (Oh wait? What do I notice? Both of these are suddenly no longer options when running Mega Latios!) This is easier on paper than in practice, but Garchomp is able to cleanly OHKO Muk-A with Earthquake while the constant pressure applied by teammates quickly puts it into KyuB Earth Power range, and unlike with Chomp, Crobat does not want to switch into KyuB to absorb the Ground move at all. Scarf Latios is imo better at this than Mega Latios as it is able to outspeed Crobat to dodge its Brave Bird, UTurn or whatever other move, as well as the Poison team's Scarfer, while its only advantage is not being as reliant on its teammates to remove molten lollipop boi and needing a liiittle less chip on the Poison team.
Onto Steel. Steel Killer M-Tios sounds fine, but I honestly question why you would use it when Dragon already has these great Steel Killers already. KyuB with Earth Power+HP Fire+Fusion Bolt rips apart every single mon on it while Garchomp gradually breaks open the defensive mons with Earthquake+Fire Blast. That's not even mentioning other potential Steel Killers like Hydreigon and Kommo-O. Adding another one just feels like a a waste of a teamslot.
Finally, I've seen someone notice that BoltBeam M-Ios can apparently beat Flying. Let's ignore the fact that EQ/HPFire/TBolt/IBm Latios runs no STAB and look at the effect of BoltBeam on the Flying team itself. BoltBeam to break Flying... Where have I heard that before... Oh wait, it's literally what KyuB is supposed to do. I guess being able to more comfortably switch into Mantine's Scald and being able to outspeed max speed Zapdos to avoid potential Discharge paralysis (or Heat Wave burns) is nice, but Zapdos rarely runs max speed anyways. Imo mons like the aforementioned KyuremB and other stuff like Garchomp already improve the Flying matchup enough to make M-Ios not worth the teamslot most of the time. Outspeeding Landorus-I is not relevant enough.
Also, Mega Latios barely threatens Mega Diancie at all other winning the speed tie to deal chip with Earthquake (or Surf/HP Steel if you have that) as it gets OHKOed by Moonblast. If you have to rely on speed ties to even be able to pose a threat at all then you're not a good threat.
As for Thunder Wave, I'm honestly more tempted to run a Thunder Wave+Roost+2 Attacks Mega Latias set along with Scarf Latios instead of the reverse. What is Megatios even going to TWave, it would rather just attack everything in sight.
Tl;dr Mega Latios' small niches over other mons that do similar things are not worth the opportunity cost of forfeiting a borderline S Rank mon and two very good A Rank mons (or C rank Mega Chomp if you're into that, which honestly also sounds like a better Steel killer than Mega Tios.)
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