yeah, let's just randomly ban everything in the world that's slightly usable so we have a "second-choice" metagame, instead of shutting the fuck up and go play (and/or fix) UU.
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More Thoughts on Stealth Rock
- Thread starter MythTrainerInfinity
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UU is going to be looked at starting early next year please take a look at this http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1641289&postcount=3 I would advise some practice in UU would be a good idea because then we could potentially move that along faster based on people's experience.
@Shelcario is those suspicions based on soley what you know or what you think?
I am talking a lot based off of my experience and since I don't use SR some of the things that would pop up as a threat in a SRless metagame I have to take into account when team building. As such I haven't had too much of a problem with any of them.
Your experiences, while still much more relevant than most people's, are not entirely relevent to what a Rock-less metagame would be like. You might not play with Rocks, but all of your opponents would play with a team expecting Rocks, and so would not use all the options that could be useful in a Rockless metagame.
I'll admit, when I first saw this topic in the PR I immediately dismissed it and was against it, but now I'm not so sure. There's decent arguments on both sides.
I understand. There would be a lot more built to abuse it in a true SRless metagame, but really my experiences and the Stop the Rocks tournament is the closest thing we have at the moment.
The opposing team might expect SR? Nope. I have seen NO single person that switches to a spinner before SR was up. And his experiences are relevant, because this shows it is possible to do fairly well in a SRless metagame.
It doesn't strengthen nor weaken either argument. Since I do not carry SR I have found myself unable to enter the top 10 (my best is 15). Having no SR gives me a little experience of the "what ifs" someone played in an SRless metagame.
As far as I am concerned in my honest opinion R/S/E had less overcentralization than D/P and we got more pokémon now. What do you guys think of that?
Well that's your honest opinion. No one can really say if the Advance generation was more centralized or less centralized, because usage statistics were never published. There never seemed to be as much controversy over tier status and overcentralization in Advance.
I don't get why the testing of Stealth Rock is so low on priority, compared to things like Manaphy and Ho-oh, when it is s influential on the game, and questionably broken. Of course people want to test Manaphy and Ho-oh because they are new powerhouses we get to use in OU, but the testing of Stealth Rock seems overall more beneficial to the health of the metagame.
I don't get why the testing of Stealth Rock is so low on priority, compared to things like Manaphy and Ho-oh, when it is s influential on the game, and questionably broken. Of course people want to test Manaphy and Ho-oh because they are new powerhouses we get to use in OU, but the testing of Stealth Rock seems overall more beneficial to the health of the metagame.
It doesn't matter
OK, this is one of my biggest problems with this whole discussion. It's one thing for Jumpman to say "we don't care if something is broken, that wasn't our goal in the first place and in the end we're just looking to improve the game however we can." Sure, I don't think that this should be Smogon's position but at least it would actually justify a Stealth Rock test.
But to say that "we think Stealth Rock might be broken so let's test it" is just completely absurd and quite honestly has probably caused a good amount of the opposition we've had to a test in the first place. It's really ignorant and basically tells me "we really hate dealing with this move constantly and this is the most obvious excuse to get it tested and hopefully banned." Please realize that there is no fucking way to determine whether something is broken just by testing a metagame without it. Yes we can find out whether that metagame is "better" (subjectively), but there's a good chunk of you who apparently don't realize that this is all we can learn from a Stealth Rock Suspect test.
Personally, I'm sick of seeing things being tested and removed. If we continue to stab away chunks of the game then it will become boring and repetitive. Think about it for a minute: every time something becomes a bit difficult to play with it is removed. We ourselves are wearing down at the pool of options for the game. Soon the game will become even more repetitive, and don't tell me you don't see the Scizor/Heatran/Salamence/Zapdos in every other battle. Some will argue that taking away stealth rocks would allow other weaker types of pokemon into play, yet I don't see many creative battlers who themselves make movesets and EV spreads. Instead, over 80% of battlers just copy and paste pokes that are currently popular. It might spark a new interest of creativity for the top battlers but then something else will be deemed too powerful once stealth rocks is removed. Our problem as a pokemon community is not what poke or move is too powerful; it is that most battlers cannot come up with their own ideas. By removing more things you only make the pool of choices smaller, hence, you will see more of the same in every battle.
So, you think Garchomp, Deoxys-S and Wobbuffet weren't deserving of a ban? Just for curiosity, I'm not trying to bash you. Don't forget that "testing it" doesn't mean "ban it" (that's why it's a, huh, testing). Should SR ever get tested, it could be still allowed in the end.
The only "chunk removed" was Garchomp; Wobbuffet and Deoxys-S were also banned, but they were introduced in OU in the first place.
I love when people say Smogon nowadays is a bunch of whiners that only want the second-choice pokémon, when in the past it allowed Celebi and Jirachi, two pokémon deemed as ubers by the majority, and also don't have that shitty Legend Clause so many other e-communities have.
Seriously? I don't. I only see two of them together, and the only one who gives me problems is Salamence because of its unpredictability.
Yeah, people tend to use what's best, or want to test something new to know what's all the fuss about it. Your point?
Do you really think people won't realize a unban of Stealth Rock would be better in this case? No, seriously, do you think everybody here is that dumb?
I agree with you just until before the semicolon, but, to me, our problem is that not everybody has a good reasoning about what's too powerful or not (again, chris is me's signature is a good example of a bad reasoning). If you are that worried about the "huge amount of bans" we're doing nowadays (even if ONLY Garchomp really got banned, the other two banned pokémon just "returned to their place"), you should go read the Order of Operations topic to see that we're actually going to unban some suspect ubers, starting with Latios and Latias. This can't be "reducing our options", is it?
You people talk as if banning something in this testing was permanent. All banned suspects will be tested together later, and they even might come back to OU. While I do agree now that testing Stealth Rock is just too "slippery-sloppy" and not really needed, I don't like this "the sky is falling" chickenlittleness.
You say this as if it would be utterly ridiculous for someone to believe so, despite all three of their respective placements being decided by vote.Arael said:
Their bans weren't justified in the first place. Allowing them in OU was the natural thing to do, and banning them was "removing a chunk from the game."
That was then, and we both know where those pokemon would be if we decided their tiering based on a month of testing.
See the Focus Sash discussion. Yes, there are people who are that dumb.
Heatran was viable when Garchomp was OU...zarator said:
Blame Game... No offense dude, but none of your points really make sense or have major flaws.
What if we were to put something like Kyogre in the OU metagame? If we were to test it, quite clearly it would be broken. You have not given us any solid data whatsoever or anything really to strengthen your argument. You simply say it isn't. This close minded apporach is really disappointing in this community...
What if we were to put something like Kyogre in the OU metagame? If we were to test it, quite clearly it would be broken. You have not given us any solid data whatsoever or anything really to strengthen your argument. You simply say it isn't. This close minded apporach is really disappointing in this community...
which part of my post (and which post) are you specifically referring to? I didn't even bring up any of the "obviously broken" pokemon (though I have in the past) so I don't exactly know how to respond without changing the subject. I'm really just confused as to what you're talking about in general actually
Better reword that line, I didn't mean it.
Well, you really have a point. "Everyone is OU until proven wrong".
Yeah, but would it be because they were the "ADV Garchomps", or the "ADV Skymins"? That is, because people really thought they were unstoppable, or because they didn't like the hax?
Well, it isn't important anymore. But I still find it funny when we let people test and vote on something and then we are treated as "whiners who can't deal with Garchomp/Evasion/Guillotine/etcetera", while we have so many people advocating a ban or clause on legends, high-tiered OUs and other crazy shits. It's just like everybody in the pokémon community is dumb, those who want Garchomp banned, and those who play with Legendary Clause.
Tsk, I always forget Focus Sash exist.
No. In fact, unlike most others I enjoyed having a challenge and having to strategically create things to deal with all threats. This question itself can drag out to a huge debate between us.
I consider bring something in to the OU game and taking it out removing.
I never said any of that.. Also, I didn't insult any forum. I'm here to put in my "two cents" in a respectful manner.
Flaw on my part; I meant to place commas. Anyways, you do see these four in combinations in absurd amount.
My point is the best battlers create or alter sets and spreads to make it to the top. Many others just copy and paste, hence, why you see so much of the same in teams. A good friend of mine, Tleilax, created an amazing Starmie and Gliscor modification. This is what the general community should do instead of just copying, which will be even more common once choices are withered down.
The ban won't be better. I didn't say anything about anyone's intelligence.
Quit assuming insults and categorizing me. I'm glad Smogon testing instead of just voting on things. I came from PokeBeach to become a part of the voting and discussions.
I wasn't active enough at the time to know exactly what the case was, but I do know that plenty of solid solid battlers thought Celebi was flat out "too good," just like there are some solid solid battlers right now who have called for Garchomp, Deoxys-S, and Shaymin-S bans. I don't think anybody thought of Celebi of "unstoppable" per se, but can that even be said of Garchomp?
I have the solution to all of your problems.
First, dont recklessly ban stealth rock. In chat rooms asking for a ban on stealth rock would get you the following reply: [unedited]
"You can't ban something just because it owns you."
If you dont like sr, make a team that resists sr. The above argument was used in the "Skymin for OU" campaign (for which, interestingly enough, i voted uber.) My sad, blatant hypocrisy aside, sr is not a pokemon. its a move. If we banned a move, what kind of precedent would that set? "We should ban draco meteor." "We should ban dragon dance."
"We should ban sketch."
The metagame, like all things, is a work in progress. The solution here is not to ban sr; it is, i think, to create more of it.
If there were moves of other types similar to sr in the next gen (eg. hot ground, darkness aura, slick surface) would sr maintain its popularity? would the super sr weak pokes rise in popularity? No and Yes. SR and its unfair bias against rock weakness would be gone.
But to alleviate the predictable increase in entry hazards as a whole, more effective rapid spinners need to be created- some with ways to deal with ghosts. or a new move like rapid spin that is not normal type. or give rapid spin to something like a dugtrio so they cant switch in a ghost.
The way to fix this is to 1) bear with sr and 2) petition nintendo for all this in the 5th gen.
Oh yeah.
First, dont recklessly ban stealth rock. In chat rooms asking for a ban on stealth rock would get you the following reply: [unedited]
"You can't ban something just because it owns you."
If you dont like sr, make a team that resists sr. The above argument was used in the "Skymin for OU" campaign (for which, interestingly enough, i voted uber.) My sad, blatant hypocrisy aside, sr is not a pokemon. its a move. If we banned a move, what kind of precedent would that set? "We should ban draco meteor." "We should ban dragon dance."
"We should ban sketch."
The metagame, like all things, is a work in progress. The solution here is not to ban sr; it is, i think, to create more of it.
If there were moves of other types similar to sr in the next gen (eg. hot ground, darkness aura, slick surface) would sr maintain its popularity? would the super sr weak pokes rise in popularity? No and Yes. SR and its unfair bias against rock weakness would be gone.
But to alleviate the predictable increase in entry hazards as a whole, more effective rapid spinners need to be created- some with ways to deal with ghosts. or a new move like rapid spin that is not normal type. or give rapid spin to something like a dugtrio so they cant switch in a ghost.
The way to fix this is to 1) bear with sr and 2) petition nintendo for all this in the 5th gen.
Oh yeah.
"We should ban Double Team." "We should ban Sheer Cold."
If we're speculating about 5th gen, the better solution is to make SR ignore double weaknesses/resistances*. You take 12.5%, 25%, or 6.25%, and that's it. None of this "you take 50% damage just for existing" crap. Additionally, simply make rapid spin's effect take place even if the opponent is immune to the attack. Brick Break does this; why can't Rapid spin?
*this is if we want try to keep the spirit of the move. Another solution is to remove it entirely.
Ummmm..... Are you implying that these were banned just because people didn't like them? If so you're waaaaayyy off. Either way the fact that they are up for consideration to be unbanned undermines your point.
Pretty sure that graph is the type of attacks that are used, notice that "Physical" and "Special" anyone?
The person that said "Just build a team that resist Stealth Rock." is retarded, if that is the case, then the game over centralized, because I am forced to play whatever the game tells me to, not the ones I want to play.
Like the other person said, there is no other redeeming spinners other the ones I listed before, that is the reason no one these days want to use a spinner these days.
I'm not saying that by banning SR will bring more diversity, but it will definitely level the playing field.
The person that said "Just build a team that resist Stealth Rock." is retarded, if that is the case, then the game over centralized, because I am forced to play whatever the game tells me to, not the ones I want to play.
Like the other person said, there is no other redeeming spinners other the ones I listed before, that is the reason no one these days want to use a spinner these days.
I'm not saying that by banning SR will bring more diversity, but it will definitely level the playing field.
How so? Everyone has access to the move.
Im sorry, this statement is utterly..dumb. Salamence is a Challenge. Lucario is a challenge. Why? Because you have to figure out what they're running and manage to not get taken down before you do so Garchomp can pretty much run the same set all the time and dismantle a team. Unless of course you create a team that specializes in dealing with Garchomp, which is over-centralization. In dealing with Garchomp, you typically lose 2 Pokemon, thats a minimum of 1/3rd of your team gone. Which then leads us to the fact that your ability to deal with other threats is lowered sigificantly, because on any good team the syngery is gone.
tbh I didnt shoddy much during the Dual Screen Deoxy stage but everything I read looked like over centralization..
SR is on almost every team. Without it, we see a lot of BL options become usable in OU; Moltres, Charizard, Regice and Articuno being examples. It might be good to test, but I doubt it'll last. It's a shame that Rapid Spin is so exclusive and unavailable; if it were available to more Pokemon, Stealth Rock would be easier to spin away.
Stealth Rock probably won't cost you a game like Garchomp or something would, but like I said, it might be good to test. Mence, Gyara and the other powerful flyers still have their natural counters.
Stealth Rock probably won't cost you a game like Garchomp or something would, but like I said, it might be good to test. Mence, Gyara and the other powerful flyers still have their natural counters.
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