The reason Spinners aren't as useful in D/P comes only partially from Ghost-types. It just requires time. A lot of strategies don't HAVE time to fool around. Some have to act quickly upon threats or be punished for trying. And by the way: have you ever thought of using Pursuit-users to beat those pesky Ghost-types? I remember that Weavile still has Pursuit and is perfectly capable of using it. Same with Scizor, Heracross, Metagross, and Tyranitar.
Unfortunately that is not the only reason why Spinners are rather useless; only 15 Pokémon in the game learn Rapid Spin (16 with Smeargle). Out of these Delibird takes ½ HP and Torkoal ¼, and they’re not very viable in general in metagames. In the other cases it can be so that Rapid Spin isn’t the first thing to prioritize on that specific Pokémon. So the numbers of Pokémon Rapid Spin is justified on are few in numbers so they become obvious when they’re about to use Rapid Spin, and that leaves the opponent a spot to switch in a ghost Pokémon to counter this. SR on the other can be used be a staggering amount of Pokémon: 63 (64 with Smeargle). And although it can be predicted, there’s nothing that can be done about it to prevent it from happening. Well the exception is taunt, but that requires you to be faster than your opponent and having the Pokémon with taunt in play.
Another thing is that if the opponent does not have SR, Rapid Spin is with no doubt a complete waste. SR on the other hand is never useless, it will always inflict damage and constrict the opponent’s ability to switch. Also, even with Rapid Spin in play, it needs to be switched in. With SR in play it has to inhibitors: first of all the damage taken from SR and secondly the opposing Pokémon might not be a opportune opponent to switch in on. In addition to this most Spinners are rather slow, with the exception of a possible Tentacruel, so if they switch in on an unfortunate opponent they won’t even strike first. So in order to play the spinner a player might have to wait, taking huge amounts of damage while waiting for an opportunity. I thin Glen summarized this pretty well by stating “It's broken because there's absolutely no risk into using SR, and the reward is too high.”
So SR’s power does not only lie in the lack of Spinners, but also the ability to counter spinners, the lack of being able to prevent it and the amount of Pokémon that can learn it. It is possible to counter it but it becomes rather situational as opposed to how freely SR can be used.
Stall teams lose a good chunk of use without Stealth Rock. This is why I'd argue that it CAN create a "balance" for teams. Do you know how hard it is to handle Life Orbed Salamence? How about Life Orb Gyarados? Celebi is 2HKOed by Ice Fang after a Dragon Dance. That's scary folks. And Waterfall still 2HKOes Skarmory for the most part. By removing Stealth Rock, you have EASILY opened a new door, and not a good one in my opinion. You've allowed hyper-offense to be very easy.
You also open up to extremely defensive playing. If one lacks SR it can easily lead to a SR/Skarbliss combo or any combo at all where one can simply start switching between two walls if the opponent lacks mix sweepers. In the case of Skarbliss the opponent doesn’t even have to switch with whirlwind in play. In addition to this, SR does not necessarily inhibit offensive playing; if one side is free to switch but the other is not the one without SR can freely switch in any Pokémon without the opposing side being able to switch in a counter with equal ease.
It feels as if the counter-argument it; just because something is barely able to counter, does it make over-powered? And I believe the answer to that is: yes, yes it does. Because it’s barely able to counter, I think the answer is given in the very same statement. For stat-raisers we were given haze, first-hitters and focus sashes.
Removing SR from the game also has other pleasant consequences, such as opening up UU/BL Pokémon more so. These Pokémon pretty much need any HP they can get and removing them could open up the game for them as well, examples are Butterfree and Scyther who with SR in play are basically useless if they are not leads. Even if they are leads they cannot really counter SR anyway.
lol the fact that sr is overwhelmingly beneficial makes it ban worthy? not unlike that annoying recover move!
I believe you actually can regret using recovery moves. Most Pokémon that have recovery are tanks and also have some sort of disabling move. If the opposing Pokémon has a stat-raising move, you can very well regret using a recovery move instead of a disabling one.
The same could be said of Trick. Just look at Darknessmalice, seems like he agrees that Trick could conceivably be worthy of a Suspect Test!
You could; there are some switches that, although stated as rare, may occur, but also if you can anticipate the trick, you can switch in a Pokémon that is unaffected or benefits from it. The possibilities of countering trick and using trick in a manner that is disadvantageous to you are far greater than using SR, which has the disadvantage use zero.
What's the big deal with SR? If you use it, it comes with the loss of tempo. You are not attacking, or switching. You're using a move that does absolutley nothing to the opposing pokemon. Suicide Leads are like running 5 pokemon and Stealth Rocks, you just gimp yourself and your team IMHO. Some people run bulky pokes with SR, if they don't lead off with it. This is just a free switch for your opponent, or a lucky KO. It's easy to punish SR users. I run a Scarf Roserade lead, so not many leads get to use SR with the exception of those that carry Lum Berry (Sup, Bronzong?) Switch in Azelf on your opponents Swampert. So what, he got SR up! Congratulations. Azelf just got a free switch in.
… well. It’s not about whether or not it is doing something at that very time, that’s not even what SR is about. It’s about the effects that it carries with it. I feel like I shouldn’t even have to say this. You’re presenting SR as something harmless when clearly it is not. ½ hp from a Pokémon by simply entering a battles is not “doing absolutely nothing to the opposing Pokémon”. You could argue that a lot of moves are useless if you’re not ‘attacking/switching’. Wish is useless, rest is useless. How about Dragon Dance? Or Sword’s Dance? Or Substitute? You’re not actually doing anything to the opposing Pokémon, and they’re basically giving you a free switch.
Translation: The game is mean and won't let me use what Pokemon I want. BAWWWWWWWWW.
Translation: My entire team depends on SR. BAWWWWW.
We can adjust, I just don't think we should force ourselves to do something that isn't necessary. Stealth Rock isn't broken, it is just common. Being good is not ban worthy, being broken is, and there has yet to be any evidence provided that would suggest that SR is broken. It does 50% to Moltres!!! Well, so does Surf.
Surf is an active move. SR plucks off 50% of Moltres simply entering battle. If SR only hit one time I could’ve agreed with you.
As for my own opinion, I think stating that SR being powerful is unavoidable. Firstly you have a constant damage output on the opponent’s team at the cost of one move-turn. This can only be avoided through Taunt, which isn’t that much of a threat seeing as a SR can simply switch out and make a better opportunity. The other counter is Rapid Spin which can be countered by Ghost types and the other liability with it that it can’t be switched in at any given time. Surely this can applied to spikes as well, but for regular spikes you need several move turns to accomplish something nearly as effective as SR and in addition to this, Pokémon also be immune to these spikes. Same goes for Toxic Spikes. SR on the other hand damages all Pokémon regardless of type and can consume as much as ½ of the opponent’s HP.
Secondly it creates a typing benefit, prohibiting types to enter the field. If SR is out and you have a Pokémon out that is weak to ground moves and no levitating Pokémon, you are left with a decision whether you want this Pokémon to take a hit or the other Pokémon to take ½ or ¼ of its HP. I think it’s unfortunate that SR adds a side of Pokémon where well anticipated switches are punished, something that I otherwise felt Pokémon excelled in as opposed to other games, but that is a sentimental note. The fact is that SR constricts proper switching and using type advantages/disadvantages. In a sense it becomes type biased since Flying’s immunity to ground is compensated to ground by causing damage anyway.
I wouldn’t mind SR so much if it wasn’t for it huge damage output it causes.
