More Thoughts on Stealth Rock

Do you support the testing of a Stealth Rockless metagame?


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What's the matter with the stealth rock? It's a move of course, moltres/zard/yanmega hates it... but why do we need to ban it? With it, you won't need a sands/hail team to stop flying and levitating sashers.
 
Considering the majority of those x2 weak to Stealth gain access to Roost, say Zapdos, Salamence, Dragonite, Togekiss, etc... I would say that Roost helps from lost HP due to Stealth Rock, although wasting a turn recovering HP is kind of a wasted turn.
 
Stealth rocks aid sweepers such as lucario have an easier time sweeping, it is an essential part of the metagame as stuff like mamoswine (whom is immune to both kinds of weather) or flying types (whom are immune to all forms of spikes EXCEPT stealth rocks) will truely become hard to take down, especially if said types hold focus sash or if other pokemons have focus sash...

It impacts strongly on flying types as it doesn't make them as threatening....Salamence will suddenyl become able to take care of even sd max atk lo scizor, and it will become mroe dangerous, same applies to zapdos who also willl now become more destructive with the sub roost toxic set or even other sets like specs, or heck, it might even run focus sash just for the sake of annoyance...

Do you know how hard it is to face a focus sash salamence? Without the precense of stelath rocks overcentralization will occur as stuff like tyranitar will have to be used just to break salamence's sash...and we all had enough of tyranitar, and especially steel types considering stuff like zapdos and salamence will rise in usage with rocks down...

But this is all theyroeymon and only testing will tell us what will happen..
 
Sash users have a hard time regardless. Hail teams might become a bit more viable, you still got to deal with the ever so common Sandstream team, Spikes, trying to get something in without taking damage on the switch, etc.

I am unsure if any other move or 'mon leaves such an impact on the tier list. The question is not just about making Articuno, Moltres, and Charizard more usable, but will it make even those who take 25% from it more usable?
it shouldnt even be about making more pokemon usable. it should be about whether its broken or not
 
It impacts strongly on flying types as it doesn't make them as threatening....Salamence will suddenyl become able to take care of even sd max atk lo scizor, and it will become mroe dangerous, same applies to zapdos who also willl now become more destructive with the sub roost toxic set or even other sets like specs, or heck, it might even run focus sash just for the sake of annoyance...

Do you know how hard it is to face a focus sash salamence? Without the precense of stelath rocks overcentralization will occur as stuff like tyranitar will have to be used just to break salamence's sash...and we all had enough of tyranitar, and especially steel types considering stuff like zapdos and salamence will rise in usage with rocks down...

But this is all theyroeymon and only testing will tell us what will happen..
Focus Sash Zapados is a retarded idea, it takes away all of the bulkyness Zapdos offers. Salamence would probably like a Yache berry more than a Focus Sash, in all reality.
 

Farmer

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I dont see stealth rock as unbalance.It does make make some pokemon less useable but is a necessary check for so many pokemon.
 

Darkmalice

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I'm thinking that with a SR ban, Tyranitar, Hippowdon and Abomasnow would be more common. A SR ban will create a large focus sash increase, then these weather pokemon will rise in usage as a reaction. Seeing how high Tyranitar's usage is (especially in the suspect ladder), this could create overcentralisation of Tyranitar and Tyranitar counters.
 
Most of this thread has been discussing weather and focus sash increase. Be careful of these speculations and use of "overcentralization."
 
Exactly darkness, it causes metagame overcentralization which should generally be avoided. And a focus sash salamence can get 2 dds most likely, then with magnezone taking care of the steel types what can take on this beast? I'm not suggesting focus sash, lo dd still works, but without stealth rocks, popular ou pokemon will rise in usage like salamence, tyranyrar (because it needs to stop focus sash with it's ability), hippowdon, zapdos and others, not only are these 4 like on every team these days, but with a stealth rocks ban they'll become on every team <_<, instead of being on like 75% of the teams >_>.

Causing metagame ovecentralization is a no no, we need stelath rocks to balance this already broken metagame....
 
Causing metagame ovecentralization is a no no, we need stelath rocks to balance this already broken metagame....
You're assuming that SR does indeed create a more balanced metagame, when there is no proof otherwise that it does - just speculation. The only really way to honestly prove that SR is indeed broken is to have a testing period for about 6 months or so (IMO), otherwise shit like "with a SR ban they'll be on every team" is groundless.
 
I'm thinking that with a SR ban, Tyranitar, Hippowdon and Abomasnow would be more common. A SR ban will create a large focus sash increase, then these weather pokemon will rise in usage as a reaction. Seeing how high Tyranitar's usage is (especially in the suspect ladder), this could create overcentralisation of Tyranitar and Tyranitar counters.
Erm Focus Sash probably won't increase significantly in use. What would you use focus sash on? The typical frail but hard hitters that would rely on it not to be OHKOed would miss out on crucial OHKOs provided by Life Orb or even a Choice item take Lucario for instance.

And in general it's pretty shitty with Tyranitar and Scizor abound anyway.
 

Scimjara

Bert Stare
You could play games with out stealth rock. Thats the point of carrying rapid spinners. I personally hate SR but i dont wish it gets banned. Yes it breaks sashes but so what so does sandstorm and hail.
 

Darkmalice

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You're assuming that SR does indeed create a more balanced metagame, when there is no proof otherwise that it does - just speculation. The only really way to honestly prove that SR is indeed broken is to have a testing period for about 6 months or so (IMO), otherwise shit like "with a SR ban they'll be on every team" is groundless.
By this logic, we cannot assume that anything is broken without a 6 month test.

Of course, we cannot 100% assume that SR does create a more balanced metagame. However, we should try to use facts and especially battling experience to accurately predict what would happen if there is no SR. Otherwise, we are wasting all the knowledge we have about pokemon. Only for debates in which there is a large amount of discussion and argument in which a pokemon is uber or not should we have a test.

I believe there are two ways of identifying suspects. The first is for suspects that are known, from facts and battling experience, to be overcentralising or powerful to the extent of broken, such as Garchomp and Deoxys-S (Stealth Rock may or may not fit this criteria). We are very familiar with these suspects, as they have been around for a while, so most smogon members' facts and gaming experience are generally accurate.

The second is for suspects who have unknown potential, and little is known about their potential. These are suspects newly introduced to the OU tier, such as Skymin and Latias. Because they have only spent a little time in the OU tier, facts and battling experience is not so accurate, so a test would be needed as quickly as possible, for the suspect may indeed be broken, and the quicker the test is done, the shorter the time period in which the suspect remains in the OU metagame, and the shorter the timer period that the OU metagame remains broken.

Testing every pokemon and move for 6 months each is... you know.
 

Farmer

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I cant see Focus sash as being a big problem.You get a second chance but lose the ability to switch in on attacks it not that great in my eyes.
 
The point is not that focus sash is a big problem, it's that the metagamwe will become much more centralized since salamence, azapdos, tyranitar amongothers will ise in usage, i mean do you want more metagame overcentralization?

And i just said that, without a testing period nothing could be known, but surely not 6 months surely less...6 months is really a "dumb" period of time for a test.
 
I really don't see why people want SR banned. You can spin it away so easily or use Taunt before they use SR if you hate SR so much, and if SR got banned Moltres will be the next best Scizor Counter and the annoying stall Moltres would be everywhere, and SR is only used to take sashes away and hurt Flying/Bug/Fire..etc hard. I don't understand why do some people say it will be "fun" if SR got banned.
 
Oh yeah sub roost toxic moltres will be worse than sub roost zapdos! Not only does it make an excellent counter to stuff like scizor, but the annoyingness coming from the sub roost toxic set will just cause more overcentralization since more counters will be born as stuff like moltres will rise. And you can't spin it so easily since the rotoms are around and they can defeat all the common spinners...except lo starmie, so why don't poeple use that if they're too afraid from stealth rocks?

And i agree, it's just putting stuff like bug, fire types etc. from becoming crazy used, and we have enough flying types (salamence, zappy etc.) so we don't need more...

Also, people want sr banned because they want to use stuff like magmortar or they just plainloy lost because theyr team has salamence and gyara...Really it's not our problem they can't team build good...but really only a testing period will tell if rocks are really broken..
 
Causing metagame ovecentralization is a no no, we need stelath rocks to balance this already broken metagame....
"Overcentralization?" This word is being thrown around so much I am not sure people even know what it is anymore. Sashers lose to priority attacks things like Quick Attack, Ice Shard, Mach Punch, Bullet Punch (this has a move tutor in Platinum), etc. among many other things.

The point is not that focus sash is a big problem, it's that the metagamwe will become much more centralized since salamence, azapdos, tyranitar amongothers will ise in usage, i mean do you want more metagame overcentralization?

And i just said that, without a testing period nothing could be known, but surely not 6 months surely less...6 months is really a "dumb" period of time for a test.
I think a 2 month time period would be sufficient to be honest, that way we could compare stats between the first and second month. People would get their gimmicks out of the way for the first month and then the second month would really tell us what it would truly be like.

I really don't see why people want SR banned. You can spin it away so easily or use Taun before they use SR if you hate SR so much, and if SR got banned Moltres will be the next best Scizor Counter and the annoying stall Moltres would be everywhere, and SR is only used to take sashes away and hurt Flying/Bug/Fire..etc hard. I don't understand why do some people say it will be "fun" if SR got banned.
Are you saying this because you personally dislike stall or did you analyze it? I've gone up against those kind of Moltres and I haven't had a problem with them. If you have a CM user that has Rest that's basically free setup for them. Also you can phaze out Subs as well.

How many of you have actually played RSE?
 
The point is not that focus sash is a big problem, it's that the metagamwe will become much more centralized since salamence, azapdos, tyranitar amongothers will ise in usage, i mean do you want more metagame overcentralization?
you don't know what overcentralisation means. you are describing "centralisation", a process in which the metagame shifts to favor certain factors and "centralizes" around them.
"overcentralisation" is an arbitrary limit by which we say "the metagame has centralised too much around this factor".
basically you are taking out of your ass.

read the thread.

However, we should try to use facts and especially battling experience to accurately predict what would happen if there is no SR. Otherwise, we are wasting all the knowledge we have about pokemon. Only for debates in which there is a large amount of discussion and argument in which a pokemon is uber or not should we have a test.
battling experience ("theorymon") to predict a metagame shift post sr? given that no one has really battled inthis metagame before how do you plan on accomplishing such a feat?

I believe there are two ways of identifying suspects. The first is for suspects that are known, from facts and battling experience, to be overcentralising or powerful to the extent of broken, such as Garchomp and Deoxys-S (Stealth Rock may or may not fit this criteria). We are very familiar with these suspects, as they have been around for a while, so most smogon members' facts and gaming experience are generally accurate.
stealth rock does not, since there is no evidence of brokenness, only evidence of frequency and centralization.
The second is for suspects who have unknown potential, and little is known about their potential. These are suspects newly introduced to the OU tier, such as Skymin and Latias. Because they have only spent a little time in the OU tier, facts and battling experience is not so accurate, so a test would be needed as quickly as possible, for the suspect may indeed be broken, and the quicker the test is done, the shorter the time period in which the suspect remains in the OU metagame, and the shorter the timer period that the OU metagame remains broken.
ok?

i don't really understand the point of those last two paragraphs. you're saying "some suspects we have experience with, some we don't, both need to be tested". so?

seriously guys, read the thread. the discussion in the last couple of pages was 10 times the worth of this one lol

there is really no way that anyone can predict whether sr's removal will be beneficial with respect to metagame centralization. it's just a big deal, just like having an eq resist is a big deal.
 
Stealth Rock is like Trick. If faced with a Trick lead, you can switch out to your own choice scarf user in most cases or a designated trick taker, or you can just take the trick and use the extra power/speed to your own advantage later. Having a spinner is NOT necessary. If you have 5 4X weak to rock pokemon then it might be, but you can let the opponent set up rocks, and you can go on with your own strategy. Setting up Stealth Rock does not magically stop a sweep from a DDing poke or a rain dance team. They'll just have 12% less HP.

You can spin away the rocks if your team is threatened so much by them, but why not just continue with your own strategy while the opponent wastes a turn with SR or with a suicide lead?
 
You know, I'd feel that it would be much easier if we just threw a non-SR ladder out and everybody who hates SR can play it and metagame on it and do whatever on it then we can check back in like six months after all the other suspect tests have finished or something. :/ Instead of wasting time arguing. Since we're probably getting a SR clause anyway...

At any rate, SR certainly needs testing. The effects will be interesting, to say the least. I cannot wait to see what the lack of SR might bring to the table.

Oh, and for all those people complaining about Charizard getting nerfed by SR, I would like to beg to differ from personal experience (which I guess would count for bullshit here due to my small number of posts). Bellyzard with SR support OHKOs basically every other bulky water with Fire Punch. Gyarados? KOed from 81% with Fire Punch; Done it before. Swampert gets slammed down to about 11% with Fire Punch: KOed with SR support. Suicune probably takes about 81% as well (Fine, theorymonning here a bit); while not SR KO range, it's certainly dangerous. And also having SR around makes it 10x easier to cut Charizard's HP to the desired pinch amount.

I honestly do not want SR banned, but having two seperate metagames develop out of the usage of SR would definitely make competitive battling more diverse. It's honestly a bit irritating to have to run anti-leads for every other novelty team that I build to stop SR from ruining, say, my Sashed Agility + Nasty Plot + Download Porygon-Z.

On a side-note, Encoring Stealth Rock might be a rather interesting option for some free turns if the dolt doesn't switch.

I refuse to say more because everything has been said in the previous nineteen pages I have read.
 

Zak91

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I don't really see the problem with Stealth Rock but if it is to be banned then i don't think the rise of Focus sash will be the main concern it will be the pokes that are being used, such as Salamence and Gyarados, they will be just as broken then ever and then more speculations will be raised to ban certain pokemon.
 
Stealth Rock isnt going to be banned, although I would like to see it tested. Rocks just seem to balance out the metagame, and it helps bring down some sweepers like gyrados/mence
 
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