More Thoughts on Stealth Rock

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I don't really see the problem with Stealth Rock but if it is to be banned then i don't think the rise of Focus sash will be the main concern it will be the pokes that are being used, such as Salamence and Gyarados, they will be just as broken then ever and then more speculations will be raised to ban certain pokemon.

Zapdos is easier to switch in and Bulkydos wouldn't die from a DDed thing from Gyara. A number of Ice types have access to Electric moves too.

Ice types suddenly become viable then and Salamence would have loads of fun dealing with things like Regice.

I've lost count how many times I've said this. Would you people read the damn thread? >.>

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Zapdos is easier to switch in and Bulkydos wouldn't die from a DDed thing from Gyara. A number of Ice types have access to Electric moves too.

Ice types suddenly become viable then and Salamence would have loads of fun dealing with things like Regice.

I've lost count how many times I've said this. Would you people read the damn thread? >.>

Actually, if you'd read the "damn thread" you'd realize that your little tirade is ass. First off, you're not taking into account the whole "But I can just switch out" thing. In the current metagame, if I get a DD with Gyarados, I don't want to switch out because I take 25% when I come in. If I get to come in for absolutely free, then I can just wait until your Zapdos has been battered and then just muscle through with Stone Edge (the best variant of LO Gyara, IMO). BulkyGyara also hasn't actually been good in this metagame for a good long time, and almost nobody uses it.

Meanwhile, 93.13% - 109.89% is the damage standard 252/252 Calm Regice takes from +1 Outrage from 405 attack Salamence. That's a better than 50% chance to OHKO, and given that Regice is used as a major special wall and has no reliable recovery, it's not going to be pristine, Regice has never been and will never be a counter to Salamence or any other Dragon.

It's one thing to be a self-righteous jackass, but it's another to be completely wrong about everything in the process.

 

[cim]

MTI, you're acting as if without Stealth Rock, Ice would become a good type. It never has been and won't be. Articuno was never a good Pokémon, for example, with one of the shittiest defensive typings in the game. Ice in general only has one resistance and too many weaknesses to function.

Not to mention "I prefer this" was never a valid argument anyway.

If people don't appear to be recognizing what you've said, it's not that they didn't hear you, it's because you were wrong. I don't know why over the last few months you've been gradually getting an ego and acting like some kind of sage, but that doesn't make you right. I learned that the hard way.

 

[Lakers]

Yeh, id have to agree. Regice is not a good wall at all, could be, at best, alright as a surprise specced poke, but other then that it isnt good. Ice also has 4 weaknesses, and it only resist one type (ice).

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

At every single comment I make Chris its like you're there to try to find a way to make me look bad.

Then use Bold if Calm gets killed. Honestly, you guys are trying too hard to make me look bad. I did not say counter, I said Salamence would have fun with it.

Hail teams have a hell of a time dealing with SR, but without it Hail teams have a better chance.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Bold takes 85% minimum, and you're maxing physical defense on something with 200 base Special Defense? That's stupid, and it pretty much ensures that Regice can't take any special hits. Salamence would have fun with Regice insofar as completely raping your opponent's shitty overspecialized wall is fun.

I've run a Hail team. SR doesn't mean shit to them. Abomasnow either SubSeeds to regain the HP or just hits with Scarfed or Banded hits, and is almost always a lead. Walrein doesn't care about SR, it'll get its 32 turns of Stall anyway. Tentacruel is almost omnipresent on Hail teams, and it can spin the rocks away. Mamoswine isn't SR weak. And usually, the two filler pokes aren't SR weak anyway, as if you're running a straight Ice-type Hail team, you're gonna get raped.

Just stop acting like you're smarter than everyone else, and take a look before you actually make assertions that are complete falsehoods.

 

[cim]

I'm not trying to make you look stupid. I'm pointing out where you are wrong. So, one could say I'm "pointing out what's already there" but that's kind of mean, so I'll just say this.

When I'm correcting or contradicting you, I believe you are being wrong and am attempting to point it out not so I can feel superior, not so I can go "wow, I showed him". I'm hoping that you learn from it and stop making these way out left field, ridiculous, bullshit claims as to what an SRless metagame would be like. You're forming them to back up your "SR is bad" claim, which you're clinging to based initially on "It does 200% per battle" (I can link the post if you want). This isn't your reasoning, it's your justification.

Not only is your reasoning factually wrong, by saying it you're not proving SR broken even if they were true! As I've now said for the 7th time in this thread (!), the reason a lot of the people don't want to test SR is not because they believe it doesn't have an impact on the game. Everyone does. The reason is that the test will just prove exactly that, but show nothing to indicate it is broken. SR does not render the metagame unplayable.

So basically people like me and SDS see you as "as wrong as can be". Your claims are factually wrong. The implications behind them are wrong. Your entire basis is wrong. Yet somehow you shrug off our points, completely ignoring them. You've done this in other threads too (see Latias).

Despite this, your ego has only grown. You've made an RMT bragging about your ladder rank (with your SRless team, "guess you don't need it to win"). Your PR posts all have at least one line flattering yourself. You seem almost completely ignorant of what's going on around you, exisiting in a state of bliss and righteousness.

I'm not doing this because I think you're a bad person, or I want to inflate my ego, or because I want to burn you. You're just being wrong.

 

[Riddler]

I don't understand all this arguing it should simply be tested. It would be interesting to see what it would do to the metagame, because right now it is simply guessing. Stealth rock is one of the most important moves of the metagame right now, why do you think all people are using it. It would make a lot more pokemon more viable that is for sure, so all pokes that we will become more threatning without sr in play will also have to watch out for more revenge killers that can be used.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Interesting, yes. Useful, no. And if the test isn't going to give usable results, why test it? You end up with A metagame and B metagame, both viable, and in that case, erring on the side of less bans is always the more prudent choice. People are just tired of dealing with SR, but that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't break the metagame and shouldn't be banned.

 

[Riddler]

It depends if without sr we will see a lot more variety in teams it is clear that sr is overcentralizing. So I think testing it still could proof te be very valuable. The goal should be the best possible metagame and if this is without sr than that should be the one.

 

[cim]

Back up "it is clear", because it isn't. What does overcentralizing mean? (I think you just mean "influences the game heavily, which it doesn't) How does something being overcentralizing prohibit variety? (Hint: It's tied to the principle of something being overcentralized) People stopped using the term for a reason.

If the goal is the best possible metagame, we would have to ban a lot of things. Best is subjective. Where do you "stop" when you decide "this is fine"?

Your argument is basically "don't you get it?", which doesn't fly.

 

[Riddler]

Best is not really subjective in this case. If the usage statistic greatly changes and more different pokes are being use and more different strategies are being excuted I think you can state that that is a better metagame. Though I not say it will be with removing sr. I simply feel that it needs to be tested since it seems such a high impact move on the game.

 

[Tleilax]

It depends if without sr we will see a lot more variety in teams it is clear that sr is overcentralizing. So I think testing it still could proof te be very valuable. The goal should be the best possible metagame and if this is without sr than that should be the one.

How would you define the best metagame? Variety? Variety really isn't as big of an issue as people believe. How many choices must we have for the metagame to be "better"? Like it or not, not everything can be viable. Part of the game is working around the limitations the game places on players. SR is one of those limitations.

A test would really prove nothing. Some people will prefer a game without it, others won't. There's no way to really quantify which is better for the metagame. Changes to the rules have to be made by more than personal opinion. There has to be logic behind it. An understanding of how the metagame is affected beyond one's personal taste. I fail to see how a SR ban would come down to more than taste.

Best is not really subjective in this case. If the usage statistic greatly changes and more different pokes are being use and more different strategies are being excuted I think you can state that that is a better metagame. Though I not say it will be with removing sr. I simply feel that it needs to be tested since it seems such a high impact move on the game.

Then prove it's not subjective. In Suspect Tests usage stats are near meaningless, since everyone is focused on the suspect, how to play with it, and how to beat it. During a SR test use of Pokemon like Moltres and Regice would rise for the sheer novelty. That doesn't mean they are good. Meanwhile, Wobbuffet use was never high. Does that mean it was any less broken? Usage stats, while helpful, do not prove a point on their own.

High impact means nothing either. We need OVERPOWERING impact. There is a difference. We don't have time to test everything that is good. Good does not mean overpowered. It's this "high impact" reasoning that has people calling for useless tests on things like Scizor and Outrage.

 

[the pugilist]

Tentacruel is almost omnipresent on Hail teams, and it can spin the rocks away.

Hmmmmm, I wonder why that might be.

Edit: @ DarknessMalice

DarknessMalice
However, we should try to use facts and especially battling experience to accurately predict what would happen if there is no SR. Otherwise, we are wasting all the knowledge we have about pokemon.

It is impossible to have experience in a metagame which you have never played before. Prediction is never100% accaurate and should be avoided if we want to get the best meetagame possible.

Only for debates in which there is a large amount of discussion and argument in which a pokemon is uber or not should we have a test.

There is a large amount of discussion whether SR is uber or not. I don't see the problem.

I believe there are two ways of identifying suspects. The first is for suspects that are known, from facts and battling experience, to be overcentralising or powerful to the extent of broken, such as Garchomp and Deoxys-S (Stealth Rock may or may not fit this criteria). We are very familiar with these suspects, as they have been around for a while, so most smogon members' facts and gaming experience are generally accurate.

However, despite this familiarity, Garchomp and Deoxys were still tested in a suspect environment.

Testing every pokemon and move for 6 months each is... you know.

I find 6 months (Possily 4 or 5) to be a decent time for testing suspects (not everything, dunno where you got that from) as it ensures the metagame is more stable compared to say, a month. This gives the players plenty of time to come to grips with the pokemon and the environment, which should help give a more accuarate verdict. Personally, I'd prefer to have each pokemon tested throughly the first time instead of currently retesting unless there is a massive shift in the metagame.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Because Hail teams both love and hate Toxic Spikes, and Tentacruel just works so well with them. If SR were banned, I would still use Tentacruel simply for those reasons. Rapid Spin just happens to be a notable extra. Hell, Hail Tentacruel doesn't even need Rapid Spin. I've used Surf/Blizzard/Knock Off/Toxic Spikes before.

 

[reyscarface]

it would be awesome to test a No SR metagame :)

 

[Tleilax]

I find 6 months (Possily 4 or 5) to be a decent time for testing suspects (not everything, dunno where you got that from) as it ensures the metagame is more stable compared to say, a month. This gives the players plenty of time to come to grips with the pokemon and the environment, which should help give a more accuarate verdict. Personally, I'd prefer to have each pokemon tested throughly the first time instead of currently retesting unless there is a massive shift in the metagame.

Nothing would get done at all if it was 6 month testing. Seriously, what more data would we get? 3 months is plenty of time to gather data. Besides, with 6 month tests means we only get 2 tests done a year compared to a potential 4. 3 months is, except in extenuating circumstances, a perfect time frame.

I would call Platinum and it's changes a massive shift in the metagame. Some things may have changed enough to warrant retesting. Not necessarily yet, but a lot of things have not been questioned in some time, and thus are up for tests.

 

[the pugilist]

Nothing would get done at all if it was 6 month testing. Seriously, what more data would we get? 3 months is plenty of time to gather data. Besides, with 6 month tests means we only get 2 tests done a year compared to a potential 4. 3 months is, except in extenuating circumstances, a perfect time frame.

I would call Platinum and it's changes a massive shift in the metagame. Some things may have changed enough to warrant retesting. Not necessarily yet, but a lot of things have not been questioned in some time, and thus are up for tests.

6 is in abiraty number - I wanted a period of time that would be enough to form accaurate opinions on a suspect. For example, it taook absoloutley ages for Deoxys true potenial to be unearthed. Therefore, a long testing would be advised.

 

[cim]

I would call Platinum and it's changes a massive shift in the metagame. Some things may have changed enough to warrant retesting. Not necessarily yet, but a lot of things have not been questioned in some time, and thus are up for tests.

Hey! I have an idea.

Platinum updates changed the metagame greatly, in ways people think is less fun. I think Platinum is broken and we should ban it because of it. Platinum changes are used on every team and it's impossible to win without them. Pinch sweepers neutral to Bullet Punch would be more viable and Stall wouldn't be ruined by Trick as much. It's the perfect solution to fix the metagame no one likes!

This is essentially the SR argument.

 

[Tleilax]

6 is in abiraty number - I wanted a period of time that would be enough to form accaurate opinions on a suspect. For example, it taook absoloutley ages for Deoxys true potenial to be unearthed. Therefore, a long testing would be advised.

If something comes up that potentially changes a Pokemon's standing, it is looked at for retesting. More time in a test on a single suspect will not fix it, and will delay the tests of others. We can always retest.

 

[reyscarface]

SR makes the metagame more closed. Every team needs a Rapid Spinner now (not in the case of spikes since not all teams have problems with them).

Testing a no SR metagame would be very interesting but we will see the likes of Yanmega and Bellyzard everywhere xD

 

[petrie911]

Hey! I have an idea.

Platinum updates changed the metagame greatly, in ways people think is less fun. I think Platinum is broken and we should ban it because of it. Platinum changes are used on every team and it's impossible to win without them. Pinch sweepers neutral to Bullet Punch would be more viable and Stall wouldn't be ruined by Trick as much. It's the perfect solution to fix the metagame no one likes!

This is essentially the SR argument.

*facepalm* Are you really comparing selectively banning a large number of moves from various pokemon and further banning 2 pokemon to a single, blanket ban on one move?

 

[cim]

SR makes the metagame more closed. Every team needs a Rapid Spinner now (not in the case of spikes since not all teams have problems with them).

Testing a no SR metagame would be very interesting but we will see the likes of Yanmega and Bellyzard everywhere xD

I'm just going to throw out your argument there as the combined total usage of every Rapid Spinner (pre Rotom before people say he made Spinning impossible) did not outperform the #1 Pokémon of the time. Hardly "necessary".

It seems as though you're trying to find justification for an idea (what a lot of people are doing) rather than using justification to find an idea.

 

[Groggy_Realm]

I personally, would like to see a Stealth Rockless metagame tested, if not to see if it is broken, as to make the tireless discussion die down.

Plus, many of my favourite Pokemon are hindered by stealth rock >.>

 

[Tleilax]

SR makes the metagame more closed. Every team needs a Rapid Spinner now (not in the case of spikes since not all teams have problems with them).

Testing a no SR metagame would be very interesting but we will see the likes of Yanmega and Bellyzard everywhere xD

Since when has every team needed a rapid spinner? I have not had a dedicated Rapid Spinner in a long time, nor have almost anyone else I have played. Not all teams have trouble with Spikes, just as not all teams have trouble with SR. In fact, any good team will not have trouble with SR, while Spikes has the potential to do far more damage in the course of a match, since 3 layers will 25% damage to everything but Flyers and Levitators, which SR holds in check.

Besides Yanmega and maybe BellyZard, what are we going to see more of to warrant a ban, assuming the staff decides variety is a good enough case for a test? Most of the BL/UU Pokemon with SR weak have far more problems holding them back than just that, otherwise we would see more Rapid Spinners being used to make them more usable. If SR was so crippling, we'd see far less Flying types in OU.

*facepalm* Are you really comparing selectively banning a large number of moves from various pokemon and further banning 2 pokemon to a single, blanket ban on one move?

No, he's comparing the reasoning, which is that of inconvenience and personal dislike.