The problem is that if you replace Platinum with SR in his reasoning, it becomes a valid complaint against Stealth Rock. If it is impossible to win without SR, then SR is, in fact, broken. Meanwhile, Platinum changes are so widespread that even if it were impossible to win without them (it's not), it would be more comparable to saying that we should have stuck with 200 play when FRLG came around.
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More Thoughts on Stealth Rock
- Thread starter MythTrainerInfinity
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The problem is that if you replace Platinum with SR in his reasoning, it becomes a valid complaint against Stealth Rock. If it is impossible to win without SR, then SR is, in fact, broken. Meanwhile, Platinum changes are so widespread that even if it were impossible to win without them (it's not), it would be more comparable to saying that we should have stuck with 200 play when FRLG came around.
But is it impossible to win without SR? Absolutely not. It simply makes it more difficult. I've run a SRless team with decent success, and I'm far from a great player. A player who has trouble against SR is a player who lacks team building skills. Most complaints come down to "I don't like it" or "it keeps me from using Pokemon X", which simply don't work. We don't test something based on personal taste or it being good. It needs to be BROKEN, which SR has proven not to be, since we have had a perfectly playable metagame with it for so long.
It was satire.
The whole point of it is that you could sub Platinum with SR and then people would call it valid. What's the difference? Both are (1) untrue and (2) invalid, both share an ulterior motive ("I like it better the other way"), and both are dumb.
Sorry that I had to ruin my joke, just had to make it clear.
You really think that an argument couldn't be made suggesting otherwise? I can think of much scarier things than having 1/24th of my moveslots unquestionably being limited to Stealth Rock that would not necessarily be considered obviously broken, much less factually.petrie911 said:
Yes, the point of it was obvious, which is why I addressed it. If it were, in fact, impossible to win without SR, it would be broken and thus should be banned. If it were impossible to win without the Pt changes as a whole, they would not be banned, since the Pt changes are so widespread. The complaint against SR is a valid one, since if its claims are true, then SR should be banned. The complaint against the Pt changes is not valid, as even if its claims were true, they wouldn't be banned.
That makes no sense. How come if one thing can be proven undesirable it's up for ban, while something similar cannot? This is where the aforementioned flawed reasoning of "I don't like it" comes into play, which his satirical post was highlighting.
As for it being impossible to win without SR, is is clearly NOT. It simply makes thing easier and helps keep significant threats in check. Stop making such fallacious statements.
To elaborate on the issue, let me present a situation. I claim that we should ban Platinum because the introduction of the Move Tutors did nothing more than centralize the game around using and countering specific threats. I feel limited because the abundance Trick forces me to run more Choice users to ruin the efforts of Trick, since I can't get around it. In addition, I feel that I have to run specific Pokemon to deal with Pokemon like Scizor, Zapdos, and Salamence that appear on 80+% of teams, limiting my team building options. You call this ridiculous. What arguments can you use against this scenario CIM satirized that we can't use on SR?
A test wouldn't really solve anything, since people already have in their minds that SR is broken. Such is the mindset of the masses, and the inherent flaw of open testing rather than closed-door decision making behind the scenes.
SHHH. Why bother with such trivial details?
Yeah I don't even know how any of this "if we're right, it's broken!" stuff ever came up, considering that it really in no way supports a Stealth Rock test because we already know that it isn't true.
Yet another MTI this MTI that post >.>
I made it there because I managed to win battles and punish people for using the move improperly. Its harder to combat SR users now that people have caught on and are using the move a bit smarter, which is something I've wanted to see.
The point in which I wanted to see the metagame evolve to was to the point where it was in fact next to impossible to punish. Every single pokémon, every single move (that isn't banned) has some form or way of punishing. Putting it on a wall like Blissey or Celebi, setting it up with those fast Jirachis, etc. basically playing it smarter makes it next to impossible to punish. before you say "Ttar's Pursuit" that's not going to really hurt every good SR user (ex. Hippowdon).
Suicide leads like Azelf I think are declining, if a threat is present people can just switch in and out their SR poké when the time is right and you're no longer losing 5-6 with a suicide lead, but have 6 and have Rocks up.
This is just another point, don't rip at it like its the only thing out there.
"Punishability" has absolutely nothing to do with anything in the sense of "is it broken".
Yet another time you've missed my point... entirely! Again! Seriously, go back and read the rant I posted about you a page or two back, because you're doing it again. You know, completely ignoring the point of the poster you're replying to in order to flatter yourself rather than give a real response.
You act like I'm doing this because you're MTI and I hate you or something, which is proof you didn't read my post a few pages back. Or if you did it went completely over your head like every other post you've ever read in this or any other thread.
Yet another time you've missed my point... entirely! Again! Seriously, go back and read the rant I posted about you a page or two back, because you're doing it again. You know, completely ignoring the point of the poster you're replying to in order to flatter yourself rather than give a real response.
You act like I'm doing this because you're MTI and I hate you or something, which is proof you didn't read my post a few pages back. Or if you did it went completely over your head like every other post you've ever read in this or any other thread.
DS Deoxys-S leads. Why do you think we booted it to Uber?
And how doest hat prove that you don't have some silly grudge against me or something? :/
Punishability is a key factor in the metagame. "Pokémon beats pokémon with move." I don't let CMCunes CM in my face because I will Trick them a Choice Scarf. This is an example of punishing them. Punishing keeps balance because it won't let one techinque be too good without some quick and easy way to deal with it. When it comes to Stealth Rock there's really no surefire way to punish. With such little risk and such great reward...it does not seem like a very fair and balanced move.
So you're saying that unbanning Stealth Rock would knock Deoxys-S straight back into OU?
edit: unless you're not specifically talking about Stealth Rock, in which case ok.
But both players are able to use Stealth Rock, so just saying that "low risk high reward" isn't enough to consider it unfair. Yes, Stealth Rock is a really good move, and is often the safest and best decision to make when the option to use it is on the table. That still doesn't mean that it actually has any adverse effect on the game; just that one in every several dozen decisions I'm forced to make is probably going to be relatively easy (not that even this isn't arguable).
This is just getting unbelievable now .. 1st Chomp, then Deoxys, now (probably Skymin, and now even a move.
I don't think people can just "play the game", without making life difficult!
I don't think people can just "play the game", without making life difficult!
I don't see how SR is impossible to punish. They're using a free turn that you can use to send in a threat and start gaining momentum. Meanwhile, your heavily offensive team isn't going to care about the bullshit 12% damage while you start pounding on their balanced/stallish team with heavy hitters.
MTI, Dual-Screen Deoxys-S was not banned for being unpunishable. It was banned for providing too much key support to teams while simeltaneously bringing every battle to a speed tie. Again, punishability has nothing to do with Uber status.
(Side note: ANd how would you know what it was banned for? At the time you wanted it banned because when Baton Passed boosts it became strong)
I'll repeat a post I've already made for you, though, in case you do care about punishability (which is just another word for "counters" which isn't a valid uber argument, sorry ^_^). SR is usually punishable, and people go to the length of burning a whole pokémon to make this as unpunishable as possible. So it's either punishable or you're 5/6 to start.
So you're wrong on two accounts. One on "punishability" (read: counterability) being a valid argument for Uber status. Second, on SR's "unpunishability" being so, as they either waste a turn or an entire Pokémon to make that so.
Seriously, your post is just a reword of "has no counters" and you know that. Now stop assuming every post I make against SR voters is all about you (seriously, you're not the center of the universe and I'm not doing this to "bring down MTI" for the millionth time) and stop repeating the same bullshit points over and over hoping that they become true.
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For the record, "pokemon beats pokemon with move" is a phrase used to dismiss arguments like "hippowdon can't safely counter Tyranitar because of specs ice beam", not "counters determine uber status"
(Side note: ANd how would you know what it was banned for? At the time you wanted it banned because when Baton Passed boosts it became strong)
I'll repeat a post I've already made for you, though, in case you do care about punishability (which is just another word for "counters" which isn't a valid uber argument, sorry ^_^). SR is usually punishable, and people go to the length of burning a whole pokémon to make this as unpunishable as possible. So it's either punishable or you're 5/6 to start.
So you're wrong on two accounts. One on "punishability" (read: counterability) being a valid argument for Uber status. Second, on SR's "unpunishability" being so, as they either waste a turn or an entire Pokémon to make that so.
Seriously, your post is just a reword of "has no counters" and you know that. Now stop assuming every post I make against SR voters is all about you (seriously, you're not the center of the universe and I'm not doing this to "bring down MTI" for the millionth time) and stop repeating the same bullshit points over and over hoping that they become true.
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For the record, "pokemon beats pokemon with move" is a phrase used to dismiss arguments like "hippowdon can't safely counter Tyranitar because of specs ice beam", not "counters determine uber status"
In addition, on most circumstances it does equal, or less, damage than Spikes. If more than one layer of Spikes goes down, it's almost guaranteed to do more consistent damage through the match. The problem people have with SR is the type discrimination. Pokemon weak to SR usually have problems outside of that issue that limits their use, making the type discrimination usually a non-issue. Most of the OU it DOES affect can deal with it. That's why they are viable.
If SR were replaced with Garchomp, this statement would've been an argument not to ban Garchomp. We know how that turned out.
But you don't have to pack anything to deal with Stealth Rock. I've hardly ever bothered with Rapid Spin. You just take the damage and play around it. When the rocks are on the field I am by no means down and out or even at a severe disadvantage. I can't switch blindly and as freely, but that's it. As for the move being punishable? Its a free turn where you aren't taking damage and the other guy isn't setting up for a sweep. Is there absolutely nothing you can do with a free turn? Also, if you're being forced to switch constantly and eat SR damage and that is really screwing you up, you're just being outplayed. The rocks have nothing to do with it.
Besides the fact that many of those points would be extremely arguable at best when applied to Garchomp, even if they were all applicable, the Stealth Rock situation is clearly much much less severe because Stealth Rock isn't nearly as one-dimensional as Garchomp (or as effective for that matter, but that's besides the point). Even if I absolutely had to use Stealth Rock no matter what, I'd have plenty of ways to work it into a number of strategies, be they offensive, defensive, or somewhere in-between.FastHippo said:
I haven't read any of this, but I'd like to give my two cents on Stealth Rocks.
The main problem that we, as a community, have is that a portion of us will go unhappy if the other part gets our way. So these threads will always exist and though they may have some good points people still back it up time after time since there are no other arguments besides the ones that are posted. It is true that Stealth Rock is countered by two things: Taunt and Rapid Spin. Rapid Spin is countered by Ghost types and Taunt... well it doesn't really work. What does that mean though? Stealth Rocks are on the field, maybe a 3HKO becomes a 2HKO due to the damage that's inflicted by switching in. The problem is if we continue to follow this logic of banning then soon we'll start to question what abilities appear "broken" to us. We'll say how Sand Stream is giving an unfair advantage. This won't happen instantly, but someone will bring it up in the future if we continue banning.
This thread is about testing it, I understand but when we've tested a pokemon for OU from the Uber tier it always made it to OU. When it was OU to the Uber tier it pretty much went as well. As soon as we label something as a "suspect" a lot of people atuomaticly decide that it belongs in the tier it is being tested for. The facts are in the voting fourm.
My last point I guess, what does Stleath Rock actually do for the game? It makes threats like Salamence, Gyarados and Zapdos at bay. It stop Focus Sashers from coming in and ruining your sweep. It allows us to have something to defend ourselves against from the flying types. What does it do against us? It stops Articuno, Moltres and Charizard from entering the metagame, it makes Sash a stupid idea except when it's on a lead. Oh yeah it turns some 2HKO's into OHKO's. Lets face it, if you're switching in a pokemon that can be 2HKO'd what's the difference? What impact will Charizard, Articuno and Moltres have on the game? Hardly any (Moltres might). People want a Stealth Rock less metagame for this reason:
**Please excuse any spelling errors or faulty logic, it's 2 A.M.
The main problem that we, as a community, have is that a portion of us will go unhappy if the other part gets our way. So these threads will always exist and though they may have some good points people still back it up time after time since there are no other arguments besides the ones that are posted. It is true that Stealth Rock is countered by two things: Taunt and Rapid Spin. Rapid Spin is countered by Ghost types and Taunt... well it doesn't really work. What does that mean though? Stealth Rocks are on the field, maybe a 3HKO becomes a 2HKO due to the damage that's inflicted by switching in. The problem is if we continue to follow this logic of banning then soon we'll start to question what abilities appear "broken" to us. We'll say how Sand Stream is giving an unfair advantage. This won't happen instantly, but someone will bring it up in the future if we continue banning.
This thread is about testing it, I understand but when we've tested a pokemon for OU from the Uber tier it always made it to OU. When it was OU to the Uber tier it pretty much went as well. As soon as we label something as a "suspect" a lot of people atuomaticly decide that it belongs in the tier it is being tested for. The facts are in the voting fourm.
My last point I guess, what does Stleath Rock actually do for the game? It makes threats like Salamence, Gyarados and Zapdos at bay. It stop Focus Sashers from coming in and ruining your sweep. It allows us to have something to defend ourselves against from the flying types. What does it do against us? It stops Articuno, Moltres and Charizard from entering the metagame, it makes Sash a stupid idea except when it's on a lead. Oh yeah it turns some 2HKO's into OHKO's. Lets face it, if you're switching in a pokemon that can be 2HKO'd what's the difference? What impact will Charizard, Articuno and Moltres have on the game? Hardly any (Moltres might). People want a Stealth Rock less metagame for this reason:
or because they find it, "a tactic that requires no skill. THough it requires skill to use correctly like MTI has pointed out.
**Please excuse any spelling errors or faulty logic, it's 2 A.M.
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