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Most improved Pokemon (NO DW ALLOWED)

NO DW ALLOWED

but yeah, Quaggy is not nearly as bad as people think, although it deserves the tier it's in (i mean seriously, BST 430? Pathetic)
 
Anchormon92 said:
I'm with Katakiri here. I don't understand why DW abilities aren't supposed to be discussed. Ninetales is awsom cuz of DW. No one would be using it otherwise. Also, something like offensive Victreebel can be considered "improved" and not from Dream World, but only because of an OU-legal Pokemon getting Drought through Dream World. You can't really discuss what's good in a metagame that allows (certain) Dream World abilities without discussing some of those abilities.

And how are moves any different? Wild Charge didn't exist last generation, and Arcanine was improved by it. Justified didn't exist last generation, and we're not supposed to talk about how it affects Arcanine? Doesn't really make sense to me, but it's your thread I guess.

To get more on topic (I guess), I only saw one mention of the new Wish mechanics, but it allows Pokemon like Blissey, Chansey, and Vaporeon to basically become competitive Max Potions. Safe passing can be tough to do, but it can bring one of your Pokemon back from near-death under the right circumstances rather than just half healing them.
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Arcanine improved with being introduced with Wild Charge and Close Combat those 2 alone made the puppy shoot right up to one of the top candidates to consider in UU atleast. Justified is a great ability and all but intimidate is better for Arcanine because being a Fire-type you're not gonna be taking hits often.
 
Alright, I'm going to point out why I have remain very queit in this thread, as it would normally be a topic I'd be happy to discus.

To put it simply, the rule against discussing dream world abilities here is just stupid.

To elaborate, I'd like to point out that Dream World Abilities are probably the single biggest contributing factor to the rise and fall of Pokemon this generation, and ignoring it in a topic dedicated to discussing the "most improved" Pokemon is utterly ridiculous, primarily because it cuts so many Pokemon out of the debate.

I'm not saying we should talk solely about dream world abilities, as clearly there have been other factors at work. But we cannot ignore them either, because ignoring them cuts an incredible number of Pokemon out of the discussion.

So until this topic begins to allow the discussion of Dream World abilities, I'm not participating further. If you're worried about weather starters and the like dominating discussion, then change the goal of the topic from finding the single most improved Pokemon to finding out what Pokemon were improved and how. That's a better discussion point anyway since it has no danger of dead ending once everyone decides on Rotom-W as being the most improved.
 
Jimera0 said:
Alright, I'm going to point out why I have remain very queit in this thread, as it would normally be a topic I'd be happy to discus.

To put it simply, the rule against discussing dream world abilities here is just stupid.

To elaborate, I'd like to point out that Dream World Abilities are probably the single biggest contributing factor to the rise and fall of Pokemon this generation, and ignoring it in a topic dedicated to discussing the "most improved" Pokemon is utterly ridiculous, primarily because it cuts so many Pokemon out of the debate.

I'm not saying we should talk solely about dream world abilities, as clearly there have been other factors at work. But we cannot ignore them either, because ignoring them cuts an incredible number of Pokemon out of the discussion.

So until this topic begins to allow the discussion of Dream World abilities, I'm not participating further. If you're worried about weather starters and the like dominating discussion, then change the goal of the topic from finding the single most improved Pokemon to finding out what Pokemon were improved and how. That's a better discussion point anyway since it has no danger of dead ending once everyone decides on Rotom-W as being the most improved.
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I can respect this, as long as people actually read through what's been discussed before posting their piece. If people can manage that then hopefully the topic won't go stale.

Just my two cents.
 
xKYSx said:
Arcanine improved with being introduced with Wild Charge and Close Combat those 2 alone made the puppy shoot right up to one of the top candidates to consider in UU atleast. Justified is a great ability and all but intimidate is better for Arcanine because being a Fire-type you're not gonna be taking hits often.
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I wasn't trying to say that Arcanine improved because of Justified, although that could be up for debate. I was just pointing out that it seems very silly to allow discussion of brand new moves but not allow discussion of new abilities just because it got them from one specific place.

Jimera0 said:
Alright, I'm going to point out why I have remain very queit in this thread, as it would normally be a topic I'd be happy to discus.

To put it simply, the rule against discussing dream world abilities here is just stupid.

To elaborate, I'd like to point out that Dream World Abilities are probably the single biggest contributing factor to the rise and fall of Pokemon this generation, and ignoring it in a topic dedicated to discussing the "most improved" Pokemon is utterly ridiculous, primarily because it cuts so many Pokemon out of the debate.

I'm not saying we should talk solely about dream world abilities, as clearly there have been other factors at work. But we cannot ignore them either, because ignoring them cuts an incredible number of Pokemon out of the discussion.

So until this topic begins to allow the discussion of Dream World abilities, I'm not participating further. If you're worried about weather starters and the like dominating discussion, then change the goal of the topic from finding the single most improved Pokemon to finding out what Pokemon were improved and how. That's a better discussion point anyway since it has no danger of dead ending once everyone decides on Rotom-W as being the most improved.
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I'm with you on this, and will follow suit. I've tried to point out how arbitrary (and ludicrous) that stipulation is, but as long as it's going to keep being enforced, I've run out of things to discuss.
 
You know what? I'm veering away from Rotom-W to say that Jirachi has improved so much. Last gen, Jirachi was "that annoying thing noobs and trolls used to win with repeated hax."
Now ask yourself, when's the last time you saw a ParaFlinch or Scarf Jirachi? Now ask yourself, when was the last time my -insert special attacker that isn't a sun sweeper here- got walled to death by a Jirachi, and its Wish brought almost his entire team back from the dead? The Pokemon itself really hasn't changed, but its role is just ridiculously different (although, new Wish mechanics and the fact that Rain is everywhere doesn't hurt).
 
I'm not really sure what you mean by not seeing Paraflinch Jirachi. Specially Defensive Jirachi still uses a Paralysis move and Iron Head, even if its main goal isn't to sweep teams.

I think the main reason Choice Scarf Jirachi isn't used much anymore is the fact that it was mainly used as an anti-lead in Gen 4. Specific leads don't really exist anymore, particularly suicide leads, making Choice Scarf Jirachi less useful.
 
DDRMaster said:
I'm not really sure what you mean by not seeing Paraflinch Jirachi. Specially Defensive Jirachi still uses a Paralysis move and Iron Head, even if its main goal isn't to sweep teams.

I think the main reason Choice Scarf Jirachi isn't used much anymore is the fact that it was mainly used as an anti-lead in Gen 4. Specific leads don't really exist anymore, particularly suicide leads, making Choice Scarf Jirachi less useful.
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Very true. Tying with Mence after a dd was never a good thing. Getting outspead by scarf Landy and Terra is even worse. Magnezone is still around, as are new threats like ferrothorn and sun sweepers. Scarf rachi just doesnt revenge as much as you need it too anymore.
 
While not "one pokemon" in particular, the addition of scald to the majority of bulky waters is just a game changer. I remember we had a very short-lived discussion back in UU about how scald is one of the best secondary effect moves out there. Unlike discharge or sludgebomb it does not have any immunity except to those with an ability. Those that it hits all have a high chance to be burned with the exception of fire types who take super effective damage from it or those with abilites. With bulky waters being known as "bulky" they become even harder to take down. I wouldnt call scald an auto will-o-wisp, but its defintily a move that scares physical attackers. Scald defintiely makes any bulky water that recieves it a much higher threat.
 
The Truth said:
The problem is that things like manectric, even after absorbing an electric attack, just plain aren't good enough to compete in OU. Let's say that you bring manectric in on rotom-w's volt switch, against a standard voltturn team. Lando just comes in and takes you out. I think that the new Storm Drain mechanic is much better than the new LightningRod due to actually making a niche for gastrodon in OU, whereas lightningrod hasn't actually pushed any weaker pokes up in the ranks. DW zapdos will be pretty awesome though, it's a shame about losing heat wave.
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Cause obviously we're only talking about OU here....*sigh*

And on the case of HW Zappy, there is a possiblity of a move tutor in grey (which is basically confirmed to be happening...)
 
Pwnemon said:
NO DW ALLOWED

but yeah, Quaggy is not nearly as bad as people think, although it deserves the tier it's in (i mean seriously, BST 430? Pathetic)
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Regigigas has 670 BST, the BST is not the only factor. Despite being NU, it could be succesfully used in every tier bar Uber.
 
-Scizor got improved a lot, forming Volt-Turn with Rotom-W, and keeping things like Latios, Dragonite and Terrakion in check.

-Heatran also got an upgrade, being the #1 sun team counter.

-Starmie is the most reliable rapid spinner, being able to get past spinblockers through it's coverage.

-Breloom is one of the most anti-metagame pokemon, dealing with Volt-Turn with it's Bulk Up set, or threatening with one of the most dangerous Focus Punches

-Magnezone, with Ferrothorn to trap
 
Dang, cheezymoon, i'm looking through this and i'm like YES noone posted magnezone or breloom, and then right there the last post has BOTH mag and loom. But hey, great minds think alike right? But yeah, i'll just elaborate.
BRELOOM: not only does bulk up help a lot, drain punch does a lot more, and sleep mechanics are changed for the better. Also, the increase in steel types and bulky waters make breloom a necessity on almost every team.
MAGNEZONE: more surprised was i when i saw that NOBODY mentioned this guy (except for cheesy :) ) then how much this pokemon improved. With the boom of steel types in this gen, magnet pull plus hp fire is really annoying to deal with. Also, given the new move, volt switch, magnezone can even pull double switches on shed shell skarms and stuff like that.
SWIFT SWIM AND CHLOROPHYLL: most notably: DD Kingdra, growth venasaur, kabutops. These pokes have definitely changed the metagames, and though they aren't as popular now, in the beginning of gen V they were used en masse.
 
The reason no one posted about Breloom and Magnezone improving is that they were already great Pokemon in Gen 4 and haven't actually improved all that much. Yes they did get some new toys to play with but just about every other Pokemon improved as well, so they didn't really get much better in comparison.

As for Swift Swim and Chlorophyll Pokemon, the former doesn't affect OU much anymore due to the fact that it's banned with Drizzle and the only OU Chlorophyll user is Venusaur, who only got Chlorophyll due to the Dream World.
 
DDRMaster said:
who only got Chlorophyll due to the Dream World.
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not really: it also enjoys the super-beefed growth, which now boosts +2 attack and special attack under sun, making it a mixed beast in late game ( although that applies to all growth-clorophyll plants in the pokeworld )
 
Toxicroak got an amazing boost, not just because of Drizzletoad and its delicious rain, but also because Drain Punch got a buff this gen, having a decent 75 base attack now. This means that with Leftovers, Toxicroak is gaining a shitton of health each turn, with Dry Skin, Drain Punch, and Leftovers (assuming Bulk Up).

Rotom-W is a top contender, now having an Electric/Water typing. This, coupled with Levitate and decent bulk, gives him only 1 weakness and a bunch of good resists. Just to make him even better, the existence of Volt-Switch just boosts him all the way up to OU. I can also say that Scizor got better because of Rotom-W, making the infamous Volt-Turn combo the legend that it is, since both these pokemon get amazing synergy together. Skarm also got a boost thanks to the boost Sturdy got, making sure he can no longer be OHKO'd without previous damage. Finally, Smeargle got a huge boost for one reason and one reason alone - he can effectively SmashPass, since he's the only pokemon that has Shell Smash + Baton Pass + Spore.
 
I have a few things that many people have missed...

If we count released DW abilities, Sableye has dramatically improved. It's gone from a complete joke to a threat in not one, but two tiers due to Prankster, allowing it to take advantage of a mind-boggling array of support moves.

However, not counting DW abilities, I'm going to say that Sandstorm has gotten several boosts. Pokemon with Sand Rush and Sand Force, as well as stuff like Poison Heal Gliscor, have pretty much allowed sand to become the most used weather in OU.
 
In my opinion, the pokemon that has gained the most from the generational shift is probobly Celebi.

Firstly, I hardly count Gen 4 Rotom-W as the same pokemon as Gen 5 Rotom-W. They have different types. Even then, Gen 4 Rotom-W was hardly bad, just the Dragon dominated metagame filled it with steels, which got cooked by the oven. And there wasn't rain on 15+% of teams either [Hence ~30% of games]. Volt Switch is something all Rotom Formes benifit from.

Celebi:
Gained Nasty Plot
Gained Psyshock
Gained a metagame with fewer Fire types and Fire-type attacks being used
Benifits greatly from the increased prominance of Water-types.

Meanwhile, all of it's old sets ARE STILL VIABLE.

About the only real downside to Celebi is it has to choose between Scizor killing it/Ferrothorn walling it, or Dragons having a feilday. But that was the case in Gen 4, and Celebi can still fire off a T-Wave/Toxic easily at them, and you DO have 5 other team members.
 
I'm confused about why people are saying that Celebi and Dragonite improved in 5th Gen from Nasty Plot and Extremespeed. Those were both 4th Gen events.
 
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