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Most threatening Pokemon behind a substitute?
- Thread starter FaceFaceFace
- Start date
Going to have to second Breloom and Gliscor...also no one has mentioned Latias...Sub+CM with defense eves is extremely deadly....it laughs at choiced Scizor, Genesect, and non Ice Punch Jirachi.
Edit-Mamoswine too.
Edit-Mamoswine too.
Calm Mind Jirachi and SubPunch Breloom are defenitively the hardest pokémon to take down if they are behind a Substitute. Jirachi can defeat you with a move before you break its substitute, forcing you to have 2 pokés capable of deal with Jirachi; one that can break his substitute, and another that can OHKO Jirachi. Breloom is also hard to take if it's the SubPunch variant; even Celebi, wich is generally considered a good check/counter to Breloom, cannot effectively deal with Breloom if it is behind a Substitute, as Breloom spores you, forcing you to switch and then giving Breloom an oportunity to setup another substitute.
I don't know if Acrobatics Gliscor is hard to kill by myself, but I've used him on my team and my opponents always had a hard time killing Gliscor when he was behind a Substitute. It needed to break it's substitute to kill Gliscor, but before it actually did so (if the attack didn't missed because of Sand Veil), Gliscor already killed the opponent.
I don't know if Acrobatics Gliscor is hard to kill by myself, but I've used him on my team and my opponents always had a hard time killing Gliscor when he was behind a Substitute. It needed to break it's substitute to kill Gliscor, but before it actually did so (if the attack didn't missed because of Sand Veil), Gliscor already killed the opponent.
Gyarados and Terrakion, both because they both have the stat spread and boosting moves to effectively sweep with two attacks. The only way to kill them is by breakin there substitutes, but that can be challenging because there boosted power can OHKO half the metagame, plus Gyarados outspeeds most scarfers after two DDs, while Terrakion is natuarally fast.
A really interesting one is tornadus (I). Not only is it a fantastic user of the move with prankster, but with incredible two-attack coverage in hurricane + focus blast, the last move slot can be given to something like taunt. If this thing gets a sub up, which is quite easy, even special walls like blissey will be defeated if they've taken a little prior damage. And with toxic spikes, nothing short of very SpD steel walls neutral to focus blast will be able to beat the set. Add to this hurricane's confusion chance and focus blast's SpD lowering chance, and this thing easily sweeps teams.
Not to mention that priority sub has got to be one of the best things in the game: think of it like a protect that can be used as many times as you want, at the cost of a little HP. Perfect for scouting choiced pokes, over-predictions, stalling outrages, the uses are limitless...
Not to mention that priority sub has got to be one of the best things in the game: think of it like a protect that can be used as many times as you want, at the cost of a little HP. Perfect for scouting choiced pokes, over-predictions, stalling outrages, the uses are limitless...
Jirachi is the first Pokemon that comes to mind. Its got Speed, bulk, and ParaFlinch going for it.
I also like Bulk Up Toxicroak with Substitute since it can recover quite a bit of HP every turn in the rain. It doesnt have Serene Grace or a huge attack stat but its got a cool shiny sprite. His typing is pretty cool too.
I also like Bulk Up Toxicroak with Substitute since it can recover quite a bit of HP every turn in the rain. It doesnt have Serene Grace or a huge attack stat but its got a cool shiny sprite. His typing is pretty cool too.
SubCM Jirachi is one of the best things in the metagame now, and forever will be as long as Offensive Rain is popular. Idk if these work in BW2 as nobody on the PS ladder is using them, but SubAcrobatics Gliscor and SubDD Dragonite were very annoying to beat in BW1, the latter's worth recently proven in the Smogon Frontier. Terrakion was decent in BW1 but that was moreso due to Swords Dance than Substitute.
I'd say the best of all them currently is easily Jirachi, probably a top 5 pokemon. Although honestly, tossing Substitute on anything that can abuse hax, such as Machamp usually works. The only other good option is to put it on something else that has decent bulk, good STAB and can set up, like Dragonite, Latias and maybe Keldeo.
And I think full Baton Pass teams deserve a mention as they're blood boiling if the Sub is kept up successfully.
I'd say the best of all them currently is easily Jirachi, probably a top 5 pokemon. Although honestly, tossing Substitute on anything that can abuse hax, such as Machamp usually works. The only other good option is to put it on something else that has decent bulk, good STAB and can set up, like Dragonite, Latias and maybe Keldeo.
And I think full Baton Pass teams deserve a mention as they're blood boiling if the Sub is kept up successfully.
dafuq? no one even mentions salamence -.-
a very effective core of subpass mienshao/other poke and mence. id be shitting my pants if a salamence was behind a sub, as with its raw power, great defenses, great typing, and coverage moves makes it devastating. unless you carry mamoswine, or scarf cloyster/+1 cloyster, your not really going to break it without sacrificing a pokemon.
intimidate gyarados is also scary when subbed. its fairly easy to get one too, especially on cc choiced terrakion, getting a sub/ddance and basically 6-0ing.
intimidate is a great tool as well, as ive found when voltturning into intimidate gyarados and setting up. but, alas, that has been mentioned already.
a very effective core of subpass mienshao/other poke and mence. id be shitting my pants if a salamence was behind a sub, as with its raw power, great defenses, great typing, and coverage moves makes it devastating. unless you carry mamoswine, or scarf cloyster/+1 cloyster, your not really going to break it without sacrificing a pokemon.
intimidate gyarados is also scary when subbed. its fairly easy to get one too, especially on cc choiced terrakion, getting a sub/ddance and basically 6-0ing.
intimidate is a great tool as well, as ive found when voltturning into intimidate gyarados and setting up. but, alas, that has been mentioned already.
Though it may not be threatening, per se, I believe that Abomasnow with Subseed is incredibly annoying, and has the potential to take out some pokemon.
Hail + Leech Seed whittles down the opponent's hp, while you gain some from leech seed and Leftovers. It's a pain if you aren't prepared.
Hail + Leech Seed whittles down the opponent's hp, while you gain some from leech seed and Leftovers. It's a pain if you aren't prepared.
Gliscor and Breloom. The former for fairly obvious reasons (Protect+Toxic+Speed creep OR Acrobatics), and the latter because of Spore + FP + Poison Heal.
Gengar is also extremely annoying when people run random things like Thunderbolt, HP Fire, etc.
Gyarados is also a pain because of its unique ability to boost its speed while a sub is up (something Hydreigon cannot do). Hydreigon, however has much better defensive typing and coverage.
Gengar is also extremely annoying when people run random things like Thunderbolt, HP Fire, etc.
Gyarados is also a pain because of its unique ability to boost its speed while a sub is up (something Hydreigon cannot do). Hydreigon, however has much better defensive typing and coverage.
Also, a Substitute set with Focus Blast and Dragon Pulse with near perfect coverage makes it so much more deadly.
Why no one has mentioned sub Salamence? Its actually quite simple, in order to run sub(I'm assuming you run dd), you have to sacrifice a coverage move in order to do so, either fire blast or eq. Then you're suddenly walled by pokemon like Heatran, Skarmory and Scizor(and running fire blast means you're barely taking advantage of dd in the first place). And with no room to run roost due to 4mss, with the stealth rock weakness, you're suddenly at 50 % hp, making you easy to revenge kill. And if you forego dd, you lose out on sweeping capabilities. I guess you could use moxie or mixed set, but you're to slow after the sub is gone and will be forced out. You're probably better of dding right away.
Eidt: when it comes to the actual topic, sub calm mind Latias is real scary for me if I don't have proper answer to it. Without a strong physical attacker or something, there's nothing you can do to it once behind a sub.
Kyurem has been lightly touched upon, but I feel it needs a bit more recognition, especially Kyurem in the Hail (The only reason to use Hail tbh). SubRoost Kyurem is a very strong pokemon, having huge attack, amazing bulk, instant recovery, and decent enough speed. What makes him really great is his ability Pressure. Pressure allows Kyurem to stall out many low PP moves such as Gyro Ball, Hydro Pump, Stone Edge, and even Focus Blast if the user in question is slower than Kyurem. Blizzard + Earth Power have amazing coverage together. Ice+Dragon is actually a decent enough typing if only for that Dragon-type (although neutrality to Ice is pretty awesome). Bad part about the typing is weakness to SR, which Roost can recover. Roost is really good on Kyurem, since he has good bulk and decent speed, allowing him to recover SR and Substitute damage. The only problem Kyurem has is that it can't do much to Water-types. Oh, what's that? His best friend Abomasnow completely destroys Water-types? Oh, ok! Speaking of Abomasnow, he can be pretty devastating with a Sub as well, as Leech Seed + Hail Damage adds up quickly. Not only that, but only Ice-types aren't affected by Hail, which is an uncommon type for pokemon to carry in the Meta. He can also fire off strong Giga Drains or even Hammer Arms to destroy Water-types, and has Ice Shard to hit Dragons. Seriously, SubRoost Kyurem is a huge threat, and I definitely recommend using it (FB + DPulse doesn't seem bad either, dat neutral coverage)
I'd say a shellsmasher or BP Mew, if you let them get a sub up, a lot of the time it's GG. They just bp boosts to a sweeper and you get wrecked it. Kingdra in the rain with sub is very threatening to, taking down at least a good 2-3 pokemon out when it goes down. CM Raikou is another great one because it can destroy most phazers, and continue its assault
I have to say a personal favourite of mine... Bisharp. Bisharp always holds a special place for me <3. But seriously he is so underrated. Behind a Sub he is soooo damn dangerous. Either you break it and eat a ridiculously powerful Sucker Punch or avoid it and risk it setting up an SD. His Sucker Punches hit like an absolute truck and people are so unprepared for him. I cannot tell you how many times people have underestimated its power and lost their revenge killer. He is also blessed with Steel typing meaning that setting up subs isn't the hardest thing. Also, if you invest into bulk his Subs are very bulky. Pokemon like Ferrothorn become complete set up fodder. His Gyro Balls and Power Whips will fail to 2HKO the subs iirc and he can just SD til the cows come home. In fact his only reliable check is sub gengar. Seriously give him a spin, he won't disappoint.
Another great pokemon behind a Sub is Zoroark (what is it with them dark types). His versatility, speed and power make him very effective and illusion is just icing on the cake.
Anyway to sum up you vs sub--Bisharp = death. I really can't stress enough how effective he is.
Another great pokemon behind a Sub is Zoroark (what is it with them dark types). His versatility, speed and power make him very effective and illusion is just icing on the cake.
Anyway to sum up you vs sub--Bisharp = death. I really can't stress enough how effective he is.