True, but they're still ordered that way in the Pokedex, and Moltres is definitely supposed to be the last of the three considering it's found in Victory Road. Them having a hierarchy like that seems very intentional.
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They probably assumed Frieza.
I do feel RGBY tries to nudge the player to meet and catch Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres in that specific order, even though that intention isn't always successful since not everyone who plays it actually tries to explore every nook and cranny of the game (even though that's also what the game seemingly wants you to do). Ideally Articuno should be the first one you meet, since even before you get ahold of Surf, you can look through the binoculars at the Route 15 gate right near Fuschia City, the southernmost city, and the game tells you there's a bird flying towards the seas and shows Articuno and plays its cry, basically nudging you to go through the Seafoam Islands after you get Surf and the water routes. Then Zapdos is second, and is on a Surf-accessed new part of the mainland near Route 10 and the Rock Tunnel, where there's a side dungeon complete with Voltorb, Magnemite, and Pikachu, and then Zapdos is there. Zapdos is more out of the way but is accessible as soon as Surf opens up, just like Articuno, though the fact that it's second is why it's more the more hidden and out there of the two. Then Moltres is dead last, because it's in Victory Road which is only accessible once you've obtained all eight badges and is very easy to see but that area is close to the end of the game.
So like, yeah there's definitely an intended order in which they want you to meet the three. How well that intention actually worked in practice is another matter though.
So like, yeah there's definitely an intended order in which they want you to meet the three. How well that intention actually worked in practice is another matter though.
So, the Earth badge. By this point we can assume why it's a feather*; Giovanni was a Flying gym leader at one point in development
But i was thinking on it randomly today and why did they commit to making it a feather though? Giovanni's sprite didn't depict it, nor did his official art at the time (Yellow would, but his OG art & headshot wouldn't) and and the games themselves had no sprites for any of the badges. I can believe there was concept art laying around that had it & the other badges, but by the time any of those designs had to actually be used in stuff like the TCG, anime, mangas, etc it would be like 1-3 years down the line. There was plenty of time to either create a fitting design from scratch or rework an existing one, and they still decided on a feather? Little odd. The other badge shapes are either abstracts that even if they dont have a direct link to their type or person are still vague enough to disconnect from any specific thing (the Thunder, Marsh, & Soul) or are direct references to their types (Boulder, Cascade, Volcano and I'd argue Rainbow is meant to be a flower). This one is a feather, we know what that links up with!
*There is artwork depicting it more like a plant -which would still be weird but hypotehtically would reference his japanese name and "Green badge" well enough- but it originates from early 2000s western media and has never been shown as anything other than a feather otherwise before & after that to my knowledge.
But i was thinking on it randomly today and why did they commit to making it a feather though? Giovanni's sprite didn't depict it, nor did his official art at the time (Yellow would, but his OG art & headshot wouldn't) and and the games themselves had no sprites for any of the badges. I can believe there was concept art laying around that had it & the other badges, but by the time any of those designs had to actually be used in stuff like the TCG, anime, mangas, etc it would be like 1-3 years down the line. There was plenty of time to either create a fitting design from scratch or rework an existing one, and they still decided on a feather? Little odd. The other badge shapes are either abstracts that even if they dont have a direct link to their type or person are still vague enough to disconnect from any specific thing (the Thunder, Marsh, & Soul) or are direct references to their types (Boulder, Cascade, Volcano and I'd argue Rainbow is meant to be a flower). This one is a feather, we know what that links up with!
*There is artwork depicting it more like a plant -which would still be weird but hypotehtically would reference his japanese name and "Green badge" well enough- but it originates from early 2000s western media and has never been shown as anything other than a feather otherwise before & after that to my knowledge.
I think the Earth Badge definitely falls into the "vague enough" category too though? The design has differed slightly over time/different continuities but to me it's always looked like a stylised leaf, even in the anime where it's very much a feather.
I'd say they committed to the feather design because... colour it green and you can just pass it off as a leaf.
As a child I always thought it really was just a leaf. I wouldn't be surprised if they thought the color alone was enough to make it pass as such. I don't remember when I learned it's supposed to be a feather, but it really never stood out to me unlike the Soul one.
Then again I would lie if I said I paid any attention to the badges as designs before I could rub them with the stylus.
Then again I would lie if I said I paid any attention to the badges as designs before I could rub them with the stylus.
Hold on
Does the second image remind you of anything?
...no
Like, I think there's only the most vague of passing similarities, that being "green and hexagons"
think i saw somewhere (or maybe just made up lol) that the earth badge resembles an ear of wheat/barley/similar, which is a little bit more earth-related than a leaf or a feather
Reading through XY Adventures and I find this. Was it alluding to a possible Diancie event in the Tower of Mastery? It wouldn't be the first time the manga plays with an unused idea from the games, like Red passing the Gym Leader exam in allusion to him being the final gym leader in Spaceworld Gold demo. So I wonder what were they considering for a Diancie event...
That or it's just alluding to Mega Diancie in the next game lol
I assume there was no intent for a tower of mastery event for Diancie and depending when this chapter came out we already knew about Mega Diancie, so, probably just an allusion to that.
I also doubt the Red thing was a reference to the state of GS at the time of the demo; they probably weren't privvy to that information and it just makes sense that if Blue was able to do it then Red would too.
So here's a fun quasi-follow up to this.A while back, we wound up talking about Clefairy and the whole "was considered to be original mascot" thing and how weirdly proliferated it was as fact despite coming (seemingly) entirely from a Beckett magazine interview (?) with I believe one of the English arm people with no specific quotes transcribed. And some places would even go onto say that Pikachu was a "last minute" decision for the Anime.
It always seemed odd because despite lots of interviews about the franchise (both games & anime) over the years, it just never seemed to come up even though it feels like trivia that would be fun to talk about.
At this point bulbapedia has removed those references, but it always stuck with me. After all maybe that interview was actually very accurate & to the point, who could say? It'd be nice to have more closure on it. So I obviously did what any reasonable person would do and bought
Pokemon Story, a book from December 2000 accounting for the early history of the franchise, from Japan. I learned about this Book when Dogasu translated the portions pertaining to the Pokemon Shock incident, bringing the series over to America and he also translated the table of contents which had this specific thing catch my eye
And it's like, hello??? This is about as primary as a source could get short of a direct word for word interview. After obtaining the book (a pain) and finding a translator (also a pain), I got Aaron Riley ( www.thelanguagequest.com ) to translate the relevant pages for me.
I'll post the full transcription in the anime thread, but as for the stuff about Pikachu specifically
Ta-da!
Basically:
-GameFreak didn't give any specific edicts to begin with, and seemingly had no direct input on mascot status (or lack thereof)
-Pikachu was chosen by the anime pretty definitively in the planning stages. Clefairy was considered (& Jigglypuff, seemingly) but from the wording it sounds like it was just a brief consideration. Either way it definitely wasn't a "last minute" decision from what this implies
-Ironically it sounds like the manga (& I must underline here, this is referring to the Pocket Monsters manga with the talking Clefairy) influenced this decision a lot. It was the primary other major piece of ongoing Pokemon media at the time, so that makes sense. People focus on the Clefairy understandably, but Pikachu was added to the story in very short order and never left; it was basically the second main character (or third, I guess, after the trainer).
-Popularity polls also helped (and-speculation on my part- that was probably also influenced by the manga)
-The only person who seemed to actively suggest Clefairy was the guy representing CoroCoro
Now in fairness this is all focused on the Anime half of things, but glancing through the table of contents it doesn't seem like there's any point where they really talk about the manga or selecting a mascot before this. So there's always a chance they were like "yes, choose Clefairy for this manga, let's see how it cooks" and it's just in another untranslated part of this book or some other interview out there that's just been lost to time. But at least with respect to the media that would define the franchise's mascot, Pikachu seemed like a hard lock.
So maybe not 100% Mystery Solved, but to me it's a solid Mystery Probably Understood.
The full section is pretty neat and has other details, I'll post it to the other thread in a minute.
Dogasu translated an interview with Anakubo, the mangaka behind the Pocket Monsters manga. https://dogasu.bulbagarden.net/read/translations/niconico_news_20171225_kousaku_anakubo.html
there's various interesting things in here, but there was one thing that stuck out to me a little. He was only given reference materials for the starters, clefairy & pikachu (LITERALLY only them, not even monster balls lmao) and he wasn't sure who to choose as the lead since there was no other insight so he thought about maybe Pikachu [incidentally Pikachu joined the cast after a few chapters iirc] but "one of the higher ups" really thought Clefairy would be a good choice.
At first blush I thought oh well maybe that was the gamefreak contact but after thinking both on the context of what little info he had and this aside from Pokemon Story "As a representative of CoroCoro Comics, Yoshikawa asked whether it would be better to make Clefairy, the protagonist in the manga, the main character in the anime as well."
i think this was probably Yoshikawa's suggestion and he just likes Clefairy a lot lmao
Still interesting that they chose Clefairy as one of the 5 Pokemon to send over to get him started. I suppose it makes sense though, its placement as a rare cute Pokemon you can find early on mirrors Pikachu and we know from interviews they chose to make that a rare early encounter because they thought it was so cute that it'd be popular. So if you're trying to grab a handful of Pokemon you think the manga can work with and find success, the 3 starters and the 2 cute rarities. one of these has to stick!
Speaking of bones, why does the Rare Bone share its sprite with the Thick Club until BDSP? How the fuck are random people and Pokémon without the magical ability to identify item effects just by obtaining them supposed to know the difference between the two?
I mean this isn't unique to those two, plenty of items share sprites (or are 99% the same). Obviously there's stuff like medicine and TMs being all the same sprites but Gen III and IV have a LOT of sprite overlap: the Spell Tag and Cleanse Tag are almost identical and you have to really squint to see the difference. Focus Sash and Expert Belt are the same except for a palette swap and a bit of extra fray on the end of the Expert Belt. I can never recall offhand which of the new evolution stones in Gen IV are for which Pokemon because they're all just generic lumps of coloured rock (as opposed to the Leaf Stone, Moon Stone, and Sun Stone which all look distinctly different from the others).
Come to think of it, Berries are pretty much the only category of item in which every single one is unique and they're not just recoloured versions of each other.
Early Diamond and Pearl media had a "best in show" that listed the strongest non-legendary physical and special attackers of each type. Some of them do indeed have the highest Attack or Special Attack of their given type (unless the actual highest is being used for a different type) but some of the picks are just weird. Also a lot of their usage suggestions are very strange but that's to be expected.
Fire:
Magmortar is indeed the strongest non-legendary special Fire-type, but Arcanine is beaten by Flareon and Blaziken.
Electric:
Ampharos is beaten by Magnezone and Magneton, but Zone is used for Steel and using an NFE would have been kinda weird.
Normal:
Yup.
Water:
Gyarados is beaten by Kingler, while Milotic is pretty far from the top of Water special attackers.
Grass:
Tangrowth is far from the strongest physical Grass-type. Roserade is also tied with Exeggutor, which given what they did with Poison, should have gone here in Roserade's place. Speaking of which...
Poison:
Neither are anywhere near the top. Drapion even has the same Attack stat as Weezing.
Fighting:
Machamp is tied with Breloom but sure.
Rock:
Rampardos was right there.
Psychic:
Metagross was used for Steel.
Bug:
Heracross is slightly behind Scizor.
Dragon:
Dragon was always going to be in a weird spot since it didn't really have any non-legendary Special Attackers, but while Salamence beats Dragonite in both categories, it's only one point ahead in physical and ten points ahead in special, so I feel like these should be switched.
Dark:
Tyranitar should have gone here, but even without it Weavile is behind Absol and Honchkrow. Honchkrow meanwhile is behind Cacturne and Houndoom on the special side.
Ground:
No notes.
Flying:
Staraptor is behind Salamence, Dragonite, Gyarados, and Honchkrow, two of which should not have been used already.
Ice:
Looks good.
Steel:
Right on.
Ghost:
Dusknoir is behind Banette.
Fire:
 |  |
| Arcanine has the Ability Flash Fire, which will raise its Fire-type move strength 1.5x. If on your team, consider attacking it with a Fire-type move to raise its power! | Use Sunny Day to increase the attack power of a Fire-type move, then attack with a powerful Fire-type attack like Overheat. |
Magmortar is indeed the strongest non-legendary special Fire-type, but Arcanine is beaten by Flareon and Blaziken.
Electric:
 |  |
| Use Motor Drive to raise Electivire's Speed, and keep it immune to Electric-type attacks. | Use Charge to double the power of a strong Electric-type move like Thunder. |
Ampharos is beaten by Magnezone and Magneton, but Zone is used for Steel and using an NFE would have been kinda weird.
Normal:
 |  |
| The Choice Band will intensify an already strong move, like the 150 power of Giga Impact. | The Ability Adaptability allows it to raise the power of moves that are the same type as the Pokemon. So use a Normal-type move with strong power like Hyper Beam. |
Yup.
Water:
 |  |
| Use Dragon Dance to raise this Pokemon's Attack and Speed, then slam opponents with the powerful Aqua Tail. | Using an HP-healing combination of Aqua Ring and Leftovers, the sturdy Milotic can last several rounds longer than usual. |
Gyarados is beaten by Kingler, while Milotic is pretty far from the top of Water special attackers.
Grass:
 |  |
| Using Sunny Day will activate Tangrowth's Ability, Chlorophyll, which doubles its Speed. | Using Sunny Day and then SolarBeam is a great combo - but also try Petal Dance while holding a Persim Berry! |
Tangrowth is far from the strongest physical Grass-type. Roserade is also tied with Exeggutor, which given what they did with Poison, should have gone here in Roserade's place. Speaking of which...
Poison:
 |  |
| Equid Drapion with the Scope Lens, which raises the chance of critical hits, then use the deadly Cross Poison. | Destiny Bond and Explosion are sure-fire hits, but be careful - Weezing can faint! |
Neither are anywhere near the top. Drapion even has the same Attack stat as Weezing.
Fighting:
 |  |
| Machamp's move DynamicPunch only has a 50% Accuracy, but with its Ability No Guard, that jumps to a 100% Accuracy rating! | Calm Mind with raise Lucario's Special Attack and Special Defense, at which point you can strike with the powerful Aura Sphere. |
Machamp is tied with Breloom but sure.
Rock:
 |  |
| Use Curse to raise Tyranitar's Attack and Defense, then let loose with something devastating like Stone Edge (which has a power rating of 100) | The Rock-type move AncientPower may also cast an additional effect - raising Omastar's stats! |
Rampardos was right there.
Psychic:
 |  |
| Use Bulk Up to raise Gallade's Attack and Defense, then hit opponents with Psycho But for a high chance of critical hits. | Calm Mind comes into use again, raising Alakazam's Special Attack and Special Defense, at which point Psychic becomes devastating. |
Metagross was used for Steel.
Bug:
 |  |
| Use Endure to lower Heracross's HP to 1, then use Reversal, which cause [sic] far more damage when Heracross has reduced HP. | Use the Choice Specs to increase Yanmega's Special Attack, then hit your foe with the 90 power move Bug Buzz. |
Heracross is slightly behind Scizor.
Dragon:
 |  |
| Go for a combo by using the move Dragon Dance to raise Salamence's Attack and Speed, then finish up with the 100 power Dragon Rush. | Raise your friendship with Dragonite so you can teach it the move Draco Meteor, a move that will be incredibly powerful due to Dragonite's high Special Attack. |
Dragon was always going to be in a weird spot since it didn't really have any non-legendary Special Attackers, but while Salamence beats Dragonite in both categories, it's only one point ahead in physical and ten points ahead in special, so I feel like these should be switched.
Dark:
 |  |
| Use Fling to throw an Iron Ball at the opponent, which will cause massive damage. | Raise your chance for critical hits with Honchkrow's Ability Super Luck, augmented by the move Nasty Plot, which raises Honchkrow's Special Attack. |
Tyranitar should have gone here, but even without it Weavile is behind Absol and Honchkrow. Honchkrow meanwhile is behind Cacturne and Houndoom on the special side.
Ground:
 |  |
| Rhyperior's Earthquake hits all of the other Pokemon with a power of 100, but you can still use it in Double Battles if you use Protect on your allies. | Use the move Earth Power while Camerupt is holding an Earth Plate to make it even more powerful. |
No notes.
Flying:
 |  |
| The move Brave Bird is one of Staraptor's best weapons with a power of 120, even with its wicked backlash. | Use Nasty Plot to raise Togekiss' Special Attack, and then use Air Slash to make the Pokemon flinch. |
Staraptor is behind Salamence, Dragonite, Gyarados, and Honchkrow, two of which should not have been used already.
Ice:
 |  |
| Mamoswine cannot harmed [sic] by hail due to its Ability Snow Cloak, which is essential if you decide to use the move Hail on your opponent. | Give Glaceon a Wide Lens, which will raise the accuracy of its 120 power move Blizzard much higher. |
Looks good.
Steel:
 |  |
| Metagross might be vulnerable to Ground-type moves, but that can be prevented when you use the move Magnet Rise to protect it. | Raise the accuracy of Magnezone's Mirror Shot from 85% to 100% when you use the move Lock-On first. |
Right on.
Ghost:
 |  |
| Use Imprison on Dusknoir's opponents, so they forget the moves that they know during the battle. | Put Gengar's opponents to sleep using Hypnosis, catching them flatfooted with the move Dream Eater. |
Dusknoir is behind Banette.
Fire:
Electric:
Normal:
Water:
Grass:
Poison:
Fighting:
Rock:
Psychic:
Bug:
Dragon:
Dark:
Houndoom is slightly behind Cacturne but it felt weird putting a dedicated mixed attacker over a one that actually favors special attacks.
Ground:
Flying:
Ice:
Steel:
Ghost:
Electric:
Normal:
Water:
Grass:
Poison:
Fighting:
Rock:
Psychic:
Bug:
Dragon:
Dark:
Houndoom is slightly behind Cacturne but it felt weird putting a dedicated mixed attacker over a one that actually favors special attacks.
Ground:
Flying:
Ice:
Steel:
Ghost:
I think they were less trying to show what were literally the strongest, and more trying to show what were the best. This leaves it a lot more open to interpretation, though I would still question most of the list.Early Diamond and Pearl media had a "best in show" that listed the strongest non-legendary physical and special attackers of each type. Some of them do indeed have the highest Attack or Special Attack of their given type (unless the actual highest is being used for a different type) but some of the picks are just weird. Also a lot of their usage suggestions are very strange but that's to be expected.
Fire:
Arcanine has the Ability Flash Fire, which will raise its Fire-type move strength 1.5x. If on your team, consider attacking it with a Fire-type move to raise its power! Use Sunny Day to increase the attack power of a Fire-type move, then attack with a powerful Fire-type attack like Overheat.
Magmortar is indeed the strongest non-legendary special Fire-type, but Arcanine is beaten by Flareon and Blaziken.
Electric:
Use Motor Drive to raise Electivire's Speed, and keep it immune to Electric-type attacks. Use Charge to double the power of a strong Electric-type move like Thunder.
Ampharos is beaten by Magnezone and Magneton, but Zone is used for Steel and using an NFE would have been kinda weird.
Normal:
The Choice Band will intensify an already strong move, like the 150 power of Giga Impact. The Ability Adaptability allows it to raise the power of moves that are the same type as the Pokemon. So use a Normal-type move with strong power like Hyper Beam.
Yup.
Water:
Use Dragon Dance to raise this Pokemon's Attack and Speed, then slam opponents with the powerful Aqua Tail. Using an HP-healing combination of Aqua Ring and Leftovers, the sturdy Milotic can last several rounds longer than usual.
Gyarados is beaten by Kingler, while Milotic is pretty far from the top of Water special attackers.
Grass:
Using Sunny Day will activate Tangrowth's Ability, Chlorophyll, which doubles its Speed. Using Sunny Day and then SolarBeam is a great combo - but also try Petal Dance while holding a Persim Berry!
Tangrowth is far from the strongest physical Grass-type. Roserade is also tied with Exeggutor, which given what they did with Poison, should have gone here in Roserade's place. Speaking of which...
Poison:
Equid Drapion with the Scope Lens, which raises the chance of critical hits, then use the deadly Cross Poison. Destiny Bond and Explosion are sure-fire hits, but be careful - Weezing can faint!
Neither are anywhere near the top. Drapion even has the same Attack stat as Weezing.
Fighting:
Machamp's move DynamicPunch only has a 50% Accuracy, but with its Ability No Guard, that jumps to a 100% Accuracy rating! Calm Mind with raise Lucario's Special Attack and Special Defense, at which point you can strike with the powerful Aura Sphere.
Machamp is tied with Breloom but sure.
Rock:
Use Curse to raise Tyranitar's Attack and Defense, then let loose with something devastating like Stone Edge (which has a power rating of 100) The Rock-type move AncientPower may also cast an additional effect - raising Omastar's stats!
Rampardos was right there.
Psychic:
Use Bulk Up to raise Gallade's Attack and Defense, then hit opponents with Psycho But for a high chance of critical hits. Calm Mind comes into use again, raising Alakazam's Special Attack and Special Defense, at which point Psychic becomes devastating.
Metagross was used for Steel.
Bug:
Use Endure to lower Heracross's HP to 1, then use Reversal, which cause [sic] far more damage when Heracross has reduced HP. Use the Choice Specs to increase Yanmega's Special Attack, then hit your foe with the 90 power move Bug Buzz.
Heracross is slightly behind Scizor.
Dragon:
Go for a combo by using the move Dragon Dance to raise Salamence's Attack and Speed, then finish up with the 100 power Dragon Rush. Raise your friendship with Dragonite so you can teach it the move Draco Meteor, a move that will be incredibly powerful due to Dragonite's high Special Attack.
Dragon was always going to be in a weird spot since it didn't really have any non-legendary Special Attackers, but while Salamence beats Dragonite in both categories, it's only one point ahead in physical and ten points ahead in special, so I feel like these should be switched.
Dark:
Use Fling to throw an Iron Ball at the opponent, which will cause massive damage. Raise your chance for critical hits with Honchkrow's Ability Super Luck, augmented by the move Nasty Plot, which raises Honchkrow's Special Attack.
Tyranitar should have gone here, but even without it Weavile is behind Absol and Honchkrow. Honchkrow meanwhile is behind Cacturne and Houndoom on the special side.
Ground:
Rhyperior's Earthquake hits all of the other Pokemon with a power of 100, but you can still use it in Double Battles if you use Protect on your allies. Use the move Earth Power while Camerupt is holding an Earth Plate to make it even more powerful.
No notes.
Flying:
The move Brave Bird is one of Staraptor's best weapons with a power of 120, even with its wicked backlash. Use Nasty Plot to raise Togekiss' Special Attack, and then use Air Slash to make the Pokemon flinch.
Staraptor is behind Salamence, Dragonite, Gyarados, and Honchkrow, two of which should not have been used already.
Ice:
Mamoswine cannot harmed [sic] by hail due to its Ability Snow Cloak, which is essential if you decide to use the move Hail on your opponent. Give Glaceon a Wide Lens, which will raise the accuracy of its 120 power move Blizzard much higher.
Looks good.
Steel:
Metagross might be vulnerable to Ground-type moves, but that can be prevented when you use the move Magnet Rise to protect it. Raise the accuracy of Magnezone's Mirror Shot from 85% to 100% when you use the move Lock-On first.
Right on.
Ghost:
Use Imprison on Dusknoir's opponents, so they forget the moves that they know during the battle. Put Gengar's opponents to sleep using Hypnosis, catching them flatfooted with the move Dream Eater.
Dusknoir is behind Banette.
Fire:
Electric:
Normal:
Water:
Grass:
Poison:
Fighting:
Rock:
Psychic:
Bug:
Dragon:
Dark:
Houndoom is slightly behind Cacturne but it felt weird putting a dedicated mixed attacker over a one that actually favors special attacks.
Ground:
Flying:
Ice:
Steel:
Ghost:
I think they considered not just high Atk and SpA, but also Abilities and/or BST, hence why Slaking is considered Porygon-Z's equal among strong Normal-type Pokémon.