Resource National Dex AG Viability Rankings [DLC I]

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S+
:yveltal:
Eh. I honestly am not so sure this should be S+. Definitely S tier, but as the metagame has evolved, it's become less and less of a game-winner and more and more of a game-changer. Still super impactful, but I'm starting to think about dropping it to S.
S
:zacian-crowned: Strong AF. Asides from dedicated counters that basically do nothing but counter zacian like quagsire and physdef eleceus, there's nothing that doesn't fear switching into this mon.
:zygarde-complete: Highly overrated. It gets absolutely destroyed by ice beam and draco meteor, and only wins games if the opponent is sorely underprepared.
S-
:necrozma-dusk-mane: Can fit on just about any team. The surge of assurance Zacians hurts it, but it's still super good and super useful.
:xerneas: Gets walled by chansey, and can't safely set up against tons of mons because of incidental checks.
A+
:rayquaza-mega: It's still a good wallbreaker! It's not god-tier but it's still really good.
:ho-oh: Easy to fit on a team , and with hdb, many teams have troubles poking holes in this thing. Gets ravaged by physical breakers and top threats like zacian and zygarde tho.
:groudon-primal: Good mon with multiple useful sets, but just barely always seems to be missing out on something - not enough support, not enough longevity, not enough damage.
A
:arceus-ground: (Ground) Multiple good sets, blanket checks basically the entirety of the meta. Can scare out even ho-oh with mixed sets.
:ditto: Easy to pick up and use. It does its job - turning on sweepers, checking zacian, etc.
:eternatus: Has nice sets and can pp stall out prominent mons like ho-oh, but has a horrid movepool and is clumsy

A-
:kyogre-primal: Solid breaker. It's unfortunately beaten by chansey, but it can manage to cripple its other switch-ins with either thunder parahax or just solid chip dmg. Really, chansey's the only thing that can reliably hold this back.
:ferrothorn: Works as a wall, usually on the special side of things. Stall isn't so good, but this thing still manages to find its way into bulky balance and semi-stall.
:arceus-water: (Water) Okay wall that clashes well with ho-oh and groundceus, but loses to too much to be as good as groundceus.
:necrozma-ultra: Meh, it can sometimes sweep, and it really appreciates marsh not being in the meta, but it's just not as good anymore. Not being able to dynamax and having the top threats be all fairy and dark types sucks for a psychic/dragon.
 

Icemaster

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I think most people's VRs are pretty similar with common points of disagreement seeming to be:

:Zygarde-Complete: vs :Zacian-Crowned:
:Groudon-Primal: vs :Rayquaza-Mega:
:Eternatus: vs :Ditto:- the placement of A rank mons in general.
:Arceus-Water: vs :Ferrothorn:
:Kyogre-Primal: vs :Necrozma-Ultra: - the placement of A- rank mons in general.

I think it would be more useful to have much more discussion focusing on the placement of these and much less of the other mons which seem pretty clear cut or lists which are pretty much the same. It'd also be useful to see some justification. It's much more useful to the VR council in seeing your opinions on those mentioned above, and much less useful to see personal opinion lists with no justification.
I'll start off with my opinion on those mentioned above:
  • Zygarde-Complete is slightly better than Zacian-Crowned imo, offensive sets are literally uncounterable outside of rare hard counters which aren't used much otherwise (eg Sub Lugia), and the amount of setup/healing opportunities it gets is crazy. Defensive sets are just icing on the cake. It's also exceptionally easy to fit. Zacian-Crowned is similarly quite easy to fit, but it doesn't have it as easy coming in and it often requires some support (eg Rocks for Assurance, and improofing). Zacian-Crowned also has less variation in its sets. Both offer utility in checking things, but I think Zygarde offers more with its ability to Dynamax.
  • Rayquaza-Mega is clearly better than Groudon-Primal. Defensive sets of Groudon have fallen out of favour slightly due to Zygarde/Groundceus and they all have a slight 4 MSS. Offensive sets are clearly not as destructive as Rayquaza-Mega's - MixRay/SD/DD and Band to and extent are extremely powerful right now and it completely cleaves through Ho-Oh/NDM/Groundceus/Zygarde-Complete cores often requiring DMax to stop it. The more I think about PDon the more I can see it in A rank.
  • Eternatus and Ditto are very difficult to compare since both do such different things, but I personally prefer Eternatus. Groundceus is more splashable and better than both.
  • Ferrothorn is better than Arceus-Water imo. Arceus-Water's main set is CM Refresh/Sub which is honestly a bit of an MU reliant mon. Ferrothorn puts in work pretty much against all non HO MUs, and sometimes comes in use during HO. Spikes stacking is very potent, same with Knock Off; the support it offers is great and it is the best counter to Kyogre-Primal. It also helps stall DMax turns.
  • Ultra-Necrozma is very easy to setup and very easy to sweep with as everything single attack does so much damage and it is so fast - its clearly better than Kyogre. Its coverage is very good too. While it only really fits on offense, Kyogre-Primal doesn't fit on very many builds either. Defensive simply takes too much damage from so many things and often gives Rayquaza/Groudon free turns. Offensive is forced out too often. Neither do anything vs HO. Ferrothorn and Arceus-Water are better than both.
Most people's VRs will look similar I bet because most mons are quite clearly better than one another.

S Rank
S+
:yveltal: yep. yveltal runs this division.

S
:zygarde-complete: Of course - dd dtail is pretty damn troublesome seeing as all of the best checks to it are pretty hard to run and we're left with shaky checks like ditto + groundceus + hooh. Defensive is also amazing - be it coil/haze.
:Zacian-Crowned: yep. This thing always puts work in, and assurance is a cool tech. More importantly it's checks are always one tiny thing from going wrong away from being broken to pieces.

S-
:necrozma-dusk-mane: defensive is pretty important for most teams. ddance is very good too.
:xerneas: yep. it's one dimensional, but still great. checks are way more common though, doesn't do what it used to. Also is at risk of being counterswept by ditto as once you lose your own dynamax checking Ditto-Xern becomes way more problematic


A Rank
A+
:ho-oh: yep. the only thing holding this back is its one-dimensional stuff and probably its reliance on an item and its ability to be overwhelmed by many threats carrying the correct coverage. Still does great things though.
:rayquaza-mega: public enemy number 1, mix/sd/dd forces the defensive dmax so often or just claims stuff. Band has fallen off a little though imo. We don't talk about scarf.
:groudon-primal: yep. Pdon suffers due to groundceus and zyg prevalence. Defensive has a little low longevity and battles in natdex are quite long - it's difficult to keep it healthy to check zacian or kyogre forever. Offensive sets are still menacing, but not Rayquaza-Mega level menacing. it only dreams it has the defensive capabilities of Ho-Oh or the offensive capabilities of MRay. it sucks to suck.

A
:Arceus-Ground:Yep. great glue mon
:eternatus: Wallbreaking LO sets are terribly hard to switch into. Ironically, eternatus is hard to bring into play. "T-killer" trades that offensive pressure away for a million times more longevity and toxic spikes are actually quite crazily powerful as the main things which do threaten it hate being poisoned or the amount of chip taken from Flamethrower, and defensive mons hate pressure.
:ditto: crazy good at helping the stall and offensive mu.

A-
:ferrothorn: amazing at laying spikes, being an annoyance to almost every defensive mon and for being the most sturdy kyogre check.
:Arceus-Water: the other glueceus but it can also run CM sets (lets be real you rarely run support on this bc groundceus generally does that better)
:Necrozma-Ultra: Yep, it's absolutely amazing on HO, but where else do you get to use it?
:kyogre-primal:the coolest mon but it is hard to fit on teams, defensive struggles vs the offensive threats, rise in MRay's usage is not good, offensive is forced out a ton and is deadweight in a few MUs. Still leagues ahead of B+ mons.
TL;DR: Please stop posting very similar lists with no context/justification. Thanks.
 
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TBH , my hot take:
Any ordering within these subranks is in most cases subjective because the Pokemon within them do completely different jobs.
Is Zacian-C better than Zygod? Impossible to say. One is a breaker that sweeps unprepared teams without relying on Dynamax, the other is a wall/wincon. They are totally different mons, and trying to say one is better than the other is pretty pointless, because neither of them are better than the other at anything they're meant to do.
Same goes for S-, Xern and Nec DM just aren't comparable.
A+ you could argue about who is the better wall between Ho-Oh and Pdon, but that doesn't capture Pdon's offensive presence or Ho-Oh's pivoting. Mega Ray stands apart from the other two, bringing very little defensively to the table and instead being a top offensive presence.
A Ditto is Ditto, perhaps you could make a case for Eternatus and Arceus-G being similar enough that you could point to one as marginally better (hint: Eternatus is busted).
A-, Ultra Nec is very different to the other 3, Ferrothorn is very passive, I guess you could compare Pogre and Arceus-W, but one has more offense, the other has recovery and better base speed. It also ignores defensive Arceus-W as a set. (Yes, defensive Pogre is a thing, no it's not anywhere near A- level).
So I think most of this is subjective. The only solid for me is Eternatus being better than Arceus-G thanks to its devastating coverage, blazing speed, access to Tspikes and unpredictable Z-moves. It also soft checks basically the entire game. (Seems like this is another hot take lol.)
 
TBH , my hot take:
Any ordering within these subranks is in most cases subjective because the Pokemon within them do completely different jobs.
Is Zacian-C better than Zygod? Impossible to say. One is a breaker that sweeps unprepared teams without relying on Dynamax, the other is a wall/wincon. They are totally different mons, and trying to say one is better than the other is pretty pointless, because neither of them are better than the other at anything they're meant to do.
Same goes for S-, Xern and Nec DM just aren't comparable.
A+ you could argue about who is the better wall between Ho-Oh and Pdon, but that doesn't capture Pdon's offensive presence or Ho-Oh's pivoting. Mega Ray stands apart from the other two, bringing very little defensively to the table and instead being a top offensive presence.
A Ditto is Ditto, perhaps you could make a case for Eternatus and Arceus-G being similar enough that you could point to one as marginally better (hint: Eternatus is busted).
A-, Ultra Nec is very different to the other 3, Ferrothorn is very passive, I guess you could compare Pogre and Arceus-W, but one has more offense, the other has recovery and better base speed. It also ignores defensive Arceus-W as a set. (Yes, defensive Pogre is a thing, no it's not anywhere near A- level).
So I think most of this is subjective. The only solid for me is Eternatus being better than Arceus-G thanks to its devastating coverage, blazing speed, access to Tspikes and unpredictable Z-moves. It also soft checks basically the entire game. (Seems like this is another hot take lol.)
You have correct information, but I'm afraid you've arrived at an incorrect conclusion.
Individual pokemon may serve different roles, but that does not at all mean that any ranking between them must be subjective. There are many ways of objectively evaluating a pokemon's strengths and weaknesses - for example, regardless of the role of a pokemon, winrate and usage will always be an objective (albeit not perfect) evaluation of a pokemon's usefulness. In fact, the entirety of smogon tiers are based on usage rates - as evident in the name of the tiers (overused, underused, rarelyused, etc...) TLDR: There are objective number values to evaluate mons.

Additionally, let's assume we don't have that information. Even so, we can easily approximate the relative usefulness of mons ourselves. Pokemon may assume different roles, but those roles can be more/less useful than each other. The situations in which those roles matter can also come up more/less often than each other. Thus, it is still possible to objectively rate pokemon and sort them.

Now let's move on to the individual arguments made:
:Zacian-Crowned: vs. :Zygarde-Complete:
Maybe I'm biased in some way, but I really don't see how Zygarde can be considered better than Zacian-Crowned, and I honestly don't even see how it's S. It relies your opponent being woefully unprepared, takes double digit turns to transform and then set up, and through the whole ordeal, it is incredibly liable to getting 1 shot due to its poor special bulk and its quadruple weakness to ice. Meanwhile, Zacian just comes in and kills things. It doesn't need setup, it just comes in (on mostly the same mons zygarde comes in on) and clicks attacks until the entire enemy team is dead. With setup (which only takes 1 turn to do with SD), it utterly destroys literally every pokemon in AG.

:Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: vs. :Xerneas:
This isn't a question - Xerneas suffers as a special sweeper because many top tier pokemon incidentally check/counter Xerneas, and it struggles to find a situation where it won't get chunked or statused while setting up. Meanwhile, NDM is far more effective at its job - walling things. Access to stealth rocks and a useful ability in prism armor allows it to survive gargantuan hits like v-create from M-ray. It does a great job at hitting back with toxic and sunsteel strike and even has some flexibility in being able to run knock off to cripple its opponents, especially opposing NDM and Ho-oh.

I'll just write about the S mons for now. The rest of my brief arguments can be found above in my VR post, which I'll repeat here.
S+
:yveltal:
Eh. I honestly am not so sure this should be S+. Definitely S tier, but as the metagame has evolved, it's become less and less of a game-winner and more and more of a game-changer. Still super impactful, but I'm starting to think about dropping it to S.
S
:zacian-crowned: Strong AF. Asides from dedicated counters that basically do nothing but counter zacian like quagsire and physdef eleceus, there's nothing that doesn't fear switching into this mon.
:zygarde-complete: Highly overrated. It gets absolutely destroyed by ice beam and draco meteor, and only wins games if the opponent is sorely underprepared.
S-
:necrozma-dusk-mane: Can fit on just about any team. The surge of assurance Zacians hurts it, but it's still super good and super useful.
:xerneas: Gets walled by chansey, and can't safely set up against tons of mons because of incidental checks.
A+
:rayquaza-mega: It's still a good wallbreaker! It's not god-tier but it's still really good.
:ho-oh: Easy to fit on a team , and with hdb, many teams have troubles poking holes in this thing. Gets ravaged by physical breakers and top threats like zacian and zygarde tho.
:groudon-primal: Good mon with multiple useful sets, but just barely always seems to be missing out on something - not enough support, not enough longevity, not enough damage.
A
:arceus-ground: (Ground) Multiple good sets, blanket checks basically the entirety of the meta. Can scare out even ho-oh with mixed sets.
:ditto: Easy to pick up and use. It does its job - turning on sweepers, checking zacian, etc.
:eternatus: Has nice sets and can pp stall out prominent mons like ho-oh, but has a horrid movepool and is clumsy

A-
:kyogre-primal: Solid breaker. It's unfortunately beaten by chansey, but it can manage to cripple its other switch-ins with either thunder parahax or just solid chip dmg. Really, chansey's the only thing that can reliably hold this back.
:ferrothorn: Works as a wall, usually on the special side of things. Stall isn't so good, but this thing still manages to find its way into bulky balance and semi-stall.
:arceus-water: (Water) Okay wall that clashes well with ho-oh and groundceus, but loses to too much to be as good as groundceus.
:necrozma-ultra: Meh, it can sometimes sweep, and it really appreciates marsh not being in the meta, but it's just not as good anymore. Not being able to dynamax and having the top threats be all fairy and dark types sucks for a psychic/dragon.
 
:Zacian-Crowned: vs. :Zygarde-Complete:
Maybe I'm biased in some way, but I really don't see how Zygarde can be considered better than Zacian-Crowned, and I honestly don't even see how it's S. It relies your opponent being woefully unprepared, takes double digit turns to transform and then set up, and through the whole ordeal, it is incredibly liable to getting 1 shot due to its poor special bulk and its quadruple weakness to ice. Meanwhile, Zacian just comes in and kills things. It doesn't need setup, it just comes in (on mostly the same mons zygarde comes in on) and clicks attacks until the entire enemy team is dead. With setup (which only takes 1 turn to do with SD), it utterly destroys literally every pokemon in AG.
I strongly disagree with this and it sounds like you have never used Zygarde-C. Let's see what Pokemon in AG commonly run Ice coverage:


:kyogre-primal:
:kyogre:
:lugia:
:arceus:
:mewtwo:
:mewtwo-mega-y:
:arceus: (Electric)
:omastar:
That's it. The only special Dragon attacks in AG are Draco Meteor from MRay and Dragon Pulse and Dynamax Cannon from Eternatus. SD Zacian-C is extremely weak to Ditto, and Zacian-C in general is countered by Pdon (one of the best defensive mons). Your other argument is that Zygarde-C suffers from overprep, but it doesn't. Zacian-C does instead, I shouldn't even explain how common Zacian-C counterplay is rn (Necrozma-DM+Pdon+Ho-Oh+Ditto). And finally, Zygarde-C wins the 1v1 vs Zacian-C if it doesn't have Play Rough, but most of the time it doesn't, especially now with the new Assurance set.
 
I strongly disagree with this and it sounds like you have never used Zygarde-C. Let's see what Pokemon in AG commonly run Ice coverage:


:kyogre-primal:
:kyogre:
:lugia:
:arceus:
:mewtwo:
:mewtwo-mega-y:
:arceus: (Electric)
:omastar:
That's it. The only special Dragon attacks in AG are Draco Meteor from MRay and Dragon Pulse and Dynamax Cannon from Eternatus. SD Zacian-C is extremely weak to Ditto, and Zacian-C in general is countered by Pdon (one of the best defensive mons). Your other argument is that Zygarde-C suffers from overprep, but it doesn't. Zacian-C does instead, I shouldn't even explain how common Zacian-C counterplay is rn (Necrozma-DM+Pdon+Ho-Oh+Ditto). And finally, Zygarde-C wins the 1v1 vs Zacian-C if it doesn't have Play Rough, but most of the time it doesn't, especially now with the new Assurance set.
I mostly agree with this, but with a couple of notes:
- Zacian-Crowned puts pressure on Zygarde switching in freely. Keep in mind that a Behemoth Blade is likely going to 2HKO, and almost certainly will after rocks. Zygarde usually doesn't like to be heavily chipped.
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 207-244 (49.2 - 58%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 207-244 (49.2 - 58%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- Is Omastar really relevant, considering its very small niche on your list. I hardly ever see it used in serious teams.
 
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 207-244 (49.2 - 58%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 207-244 (49.2 - 58%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Remember Power Construct is a thing, so:
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 207-244 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- 2.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 207-244 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- 51.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Zygarde-Complete Thousand Arrows vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: 174-206 (53.3 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Power Construct triggering after the first hit allows Zygod to beat Zacian-C.
Even funnier:
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-Complete: 280-330 (48.6 - 57.2%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 216+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 348-410 (107 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Zacian-C is setup bait for DD Zygod (outspeeds after a DD).
- Zacian-Crowned puts pressure on Zygarde switching in freely. Keep in mind that a Behemoth Blade is likely going to 2HKO, and almost certainly will after rocks. Zygarde usually doesn't like to be heavily chipped.
Uhh, Rest. Zygod literally does not care about chip as long as it is awake.
You have correct information, but I'm afraid you've arrived at an incorrect conclusion.
Individual pokemon may serve different roles, but that does not at all mean that any ranking between them must be subjective. There are many ways of objectively evaluating a pokemon's strengths and weaknesses - for example, regardless of the role of a pokemon, winrate and usage will always be an objective (albeit not perfect) evaluation of a pokemon's usefulness. In fact, the entirety of smogon tiers are based on usage rates - as evident in the name of the tiers (overused, underused, rarelyused, etc...) TLDR: There are objective number values to evaluate mons.
Yes, we know that certain mons are good/bad lol that's not the point I'm making. At no stage did I say that there was no way to compare mons at all (hint: This thread), I was making the point that both Zygod and Zacian-C bring different traits that are vital to the identity of the metagame (hence why they are both S), and are superior to Nec DM and Xern in how consistently they fulfil their purpose, while not being as defining a threat as Yveltal.
The point I was making, is that any attempt to say one is better than the other suffers from how brilliant they both are at their roles. Whatever one does, you can point to something the other does that is just as impactful. IMO, it simply comes down to the player in question. Players who lean towards offense and quick games will point to Zacian-C's breaking power as an indication of how good it is. Players who like longer games and solid wincons will prefer Zygod for enabling both of those. They are both equally invaluable to the metagame, and in the end ranking one of them above the other will always be a disrespect to what they can both achieve.
 
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You have correct information, but I'm afraid you've arrived at an incorrect conclusion.
Individual pokemon may serve different roles, but that does not at all mean that any ranking between them must be subjective. There are many ways of objectively evaluating a pokemon's strengths and weaknesses - for example, regardless of the role of a pokemon, winrate and usage will always be an objective (albeit not perfect) evaluation of a pokemon's usefulness. In fact, the entirety of smogon tiers are based on usage rates - as evident in the name of the tiers (overused, underused, rarelyused, etc...) TLDR: There are objective number values to evaluate mons.

Additionally, let's assume we don't have that information. Even so, we can easily approximate the relative usefulness of mons ourselves. Pokemon may assume different roles, but those roles can be more/less useful than each other. The situations in which those roles matter can also come up more/less often than each other. Thus, it is still possible to objectively rate pokemon and sort them.

Now let's move on to the individual arguments made:
:Zacian-Crowned: vs. :Zygarde-Complete:
Maybe I'm biased in some way, but I really don't see how Zygarde can be considered better than Zacian-Crowned, and I honestly don't even see how it's S. It relies your opponent being woefully unprepared, takes double digit turns to transform and then set up, and through the whole ordeal, it is incredibly liable to getting 1 shot due to its poor special bulk and its quadruple weakness to ice. Meanwhile, Zacian just comes in and kills things. It doesn't need setup, it just comes in (on mostly the same mons zygarde comes in on) and clicks attacks until the entire enemy team is dead. With setup (which only takes 1 turn to do with SD), it utterly destroys literally every pokemon in AG.

[/SPOILER]
So While I respect that everybody can have their own opinion the simple fact is there is a difference between being unprepared and overwhelming your foes. Zygarde does the latter. Particularly dragon dance sets which are all I see recently can easily overwhelm their checks. Zacian does kill stuff yes but it kills the same stuff. It will very rarely OVERWHELM it's checks. Zygarde Overwhelms it's own defensive answers.

My next point is Zygarde C can pick and choose it's checks. Defensive sets have answers in Xerneas and other special attackers. Meanwhile DD sets struggle to break though other things like Arceus-Grass (I know it's not very relevant but that's the one off the top of my head). Also not to be nit picky, but SD zacian C is rare on the ladder due to it's already high weakness to ditto. So unless you packing substitute (Bearing in mind that means you will have just 2 Attacking Moves) Your pretty screwed.
 
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Xern and Nec DM just aren't comparable.
Necrozma-DM is far better than Xern, since it doesn't suffer from overprep, is much better at its job in providing utility, while Xern needs a setup turn in order to sweep. Zacian-C, Necrozma-DM, and Chansey being on every single team means that it will probably end up doing nothing every game. Xern does have a much better matchup vs HO, but HO is really not good rn with Ho-Oh everywhere to Defog Smeargle's Webs away and Whirlwind any setup sweepers.
:yveltal:
Eh. I honestly am not so sure this should be S+. Definitely S tier, but as the metagame has evolved, it's become less and less of a game-winner and more and more of a game-changer. Still super impactful, but I'm starting to think about dropping it to S.
Yveltal can beat every single one of its ''checks''. I will assume that the viable Yveltal sets are:
Yveltal @ Life Orb
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe OR 4 Def / 252 Spa / 252 Spe
Rash / Modest Nature
- Oblivion Wing
- Dark Pulse
- Heat Wave
- Rock Slide / Steel Wing / Knock Off / Sucker Punch / U-turn / Focus Blast / Hidden Power Poison / Taunt

Yveltal @ Choice Band
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Sucker Punch
- Foul Play

Yveltal @ Life Orb
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Sky Attack
- Steel Wing
- Roost

:diancie: :diancie-mega: Loses to Steel Wing LO and Physical.
:tyranitar: :tyranitar-mega: Loses to Focus Blast LO, Choice Band and Physical.
:chansey: Loses to Taunt/Knock Off LO, Choice Band and Physical.
:zacian-crowned: Loses to LO.
:xerneas: Loses to Steel Wing LO and Physical.

And finally, if this was a tier that allowed bans, Yveltal would be banned.
Is Omastar really relevant, considering its very small niche on your list. I hardly ever see it used in serious teams.
That was a list of viable mons in AG that run Ice coverage, so Omastar is in fact relevant.
My next point is Zygarde C can pick and choose it's checks. Defensive sets have answers in Xerneas and other special attackers. Meanwhile DD sets struggle to break though other things like Arceus-Grass (I know it's not very relevant but that's the one off the top of my head).
Both Zygarde-C sets have similar checks in mons that can OHKO it with Ice and Dragon special attacks, so your argument here is invalid. Grassceus isn't relevant at all since it's barely viable.

I will end this with some noms (not related to the S/A ranks for obvious reasons):
-> C
Giratina is much better and more relevant than niche mons like Amoonguss, Omastar, Skarmory, and Toxapex. It is great at its job in walling things and Defog any hazards away. Still much worse than the likes of Ho-Oh and Gliscor, which is why I won't nom it to higher ranks.
-> D
Not that good and much worse than other mons in the rank. Its Crowned forme being so viable and splashable rn isn't helping it either. It is also a lot more weak to Ditto than its Crowned forme. Seriously, gl trying to improof this.
 
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Geysers

But my sorrows, they learned to swim
is a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I cannot disagree more strongly with the above nomination of MMY. I am actually going to nominate
:ss/mewtwo-mega-y: —> B / B+
MMY is an incredibly deadly non-dynamax sweeper and breaker. Its massive special attack stat coupled with its insane speed tier, access to Nasty Plot, and colorful coverage options make it an incredibly deadly force capable of easily chewing apart bulky balances or stalls. These characteristics have led me to employ MMY in three major SSNL matches, where it was extraordinarily effective, as shown in the replays below. In addition, Bacon utilized MMY to deadly affect in a recent SSNL match vs ADF, the replay of which is also below. A significant advantage of MMY over regular mewtwo is that it is far easier to imposterproof, because Ditto can’t dynamax while transformed into it.

Replays -
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1116216211-qs4y4xb1h09tjjmcujxh5l2hlho6irmpw — MMY applies massive offensive pressure, and slowly picks apart an incredibly bulky stall.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1116233794 — MMY cleans up a weakened team with ease
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1123909238 — MMY rips apart a bulky balance with what would have been ease if I’d eved it correctly lol.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1124324823-r619ahklz5ynwln3fjmk10vup684rk0pw — Bacon uses MMY webs.

As the above replays show, MMY is an incredibly deadly force in the current metagame, capable of defeating with almost unparalleled ease the vast majority of balances and stalls thanks to its absurd firepower and spectacular speed tier. Dropping MMY off the VR is in no way a good idea, as evidenced by its effective use in high level tournament play. In conclusion, MMY should be raised to B or B+ thanks to its sheer power and ability to annihilate bulky teams, which is an incredibly useful characteristic to have on semistall in the current meta.
 
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I know I don't post on here often but for me I have been making a pokemon viable for a while and my pokemon I would like to nominate would be chandelure. I know everyone has rejected this idea but I have spent 4 consecutive years on putting my case in. I have proof that chandelure should at least be a D-class pokemon. Here is my proof. I have had chandelure on my team since day one. Since then I have made a heavy beating on myself to prove that willpower and the ability to conquer the best teams like a full Arceus team and a crazy win against Lance stall team. I have used chandelure to beat them. And when dynamax came out I have proven again hat dynamax chandelure took out 5 Pokemon alone. So if that's a big enough feat for class D then I don't know what is. Here is my proof.
https://pokepast.es/414db93144ff9f11
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-977468187
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1089445798
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1066434823
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-994531771
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-974353306
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-908955973
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-894534227
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1125722594
This is the chandelure stats from pokemon showdown. And that is my proof thank you for your time.

Chandelure @ Focus Sash
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Clear Smog
- Flamethrower
- Sleep Talk
 
I cannot disagree more strongly with the above nomination of MMY. I am actually going to nominate
:ss/mewtwo-mega-y: —> B / B+
MMY is an incredibly deadly non-dynamax sweeper and breaker. Its massive special attack stat coupled with its insane speed tier, access to Nasty Plot, and colorful coverage options make it an incredibly deadly force capable of easily chewing apart bulky balances or stalls. These characteristics have led me to employ MMY in three major SSNL matches, where it was extraordinarily effective, as shown in the replays below. In addition, Bacon utilized MMY to deadly affect in a recent SSNL match vs ADF, the replay of which is also below. A significant advantage of MMY over regular mewtwo is that it is far easier to imposterproof, because Ditto can’t dynamax while transformed into it.

Replays -
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1116216211-qs4y4xb1h09tjjmcujxh5l2hlho6irmpw — MMY applies massive offensive pressure, and slowly picks apart an incredibly bulky stall.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1116233794 — MMY cleans up a weakened team with ease
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1123909238 — MMY rips apart a bulky balance with what would have been ease if I’d eved it correctly lol.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1124324823-r619ahklz5ynwln3fjmk10vup684rk0pw — Bacon uses MMY webs.

As the above replays show, MMY is an incredibly deadly force in the current metagame, capable of defeating with almost unparalleled ease the vast majority of balances and stalls thanks to its absurd firepower and spectacular speed tier. Dropping MMY off the VR is in no way a good idea, as evidenced by its effective use in high level tournament play. In conclusion, MMY should be raised to B or B+ thanks to its sheer power and ability to annihilate bulky teams, which is an incredibly useful characteristic to have on semistall in the current meta.
:mewtwo-mega-y: -> B / B+
Agree with raising it to B. Extremely short post but yes I was the one who nommed this down. Just realized that Mewtwo is the niche mon here, not MMY since MMY is faster and stronger. I think MMY is better than Mewtwo, but I don't think it should be as high as B+. Both are really powerful after all, but MMY allows the use of another Dynamax abuser like Ygod, is easier to improof, and outspeeds Zacian-C.

Soon...
 

Kate

Moving In Stereo
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past SCL Champion
RBTT Champion
Hello, Kate is back with another stupid nom for you all. I had smoked a joint and randomly decided that I may as well use recent UU drop, Keldeo. I was a bit surprised to find out that it isn't completely useless and can put in ridiculous amounts of work vs common balance builds. (Ladder is an HO shitstorm so don't use Keldeo there). Anyway, here's the set:
:sm/keldeo:

Keldeo @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 4 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Calm Mind

The aim of the set is pretty simple; you can cleave through defensive cores with Keld's great Dual STAB. It also operates as a fantastic last mon CM user, as it dominates both Chansey and Ho-Oh. The EVs are designed to allow three things.
- Sunsteel Strike from Defensive Dusk Mane will not break Substitute
- Arc Water Judgment will not break Sub
- Keldeo will outspeed the base 100 camp.
Luckily, this all works out pretty nicely, as 196 Timid Speed hits 331, allowing you to even creep Arceus Forms. Additionally, after two Calm Mind boosts, you can turn Arc Ground into bait for Keldeo as well. With Ferrothorn also opting for Koff over Gyro/Grass coverage, you once again completely wall an integral part of Balance builds. The merits over CM Waterceus are pretty obvious, Keldeo can cripple switchins to it with Scald, and it easily breaks Chansey. While Waterceus can use Sub as well to bait in Ferro, it ends up being less useful thanks to its lack of defensive utility with Refresh. Keldeo can also break through weakened PDon, which Arc Water can never do. Thanks to it being relatively easy to improof, Keldeo operates as a deadly balance killer that deserves to move from UR --> D.
(You also beat Heatran which is an immediate plus in my book)
 
After carefully reading through this keldeo nomination for VR, I’ve wanted to put my input as to why I think it does not have the niche for it to qualify to be the rank of D.

I’ve played this specific set of Keldeo vs mdb as shown above, yes it had beaten my team but only because of the testing I have been conducting with tangrowth plus the lack of effective moves to break sub besides yvel but won’t get into that today. Ladder wise, yes this set could it possibly give some results although not many, but tour wise I don’t see being that useful at all and here is why.

Currently in the VR we have Eternatus which not only walls keldeo, but completely shuts it down because of its ability pressure so keldeo can’t even use scald against it or secret sword even with set up due to it losing more PP every turn because of pressure. I was told in the replay that eternatus is not used in gameplay. I’m not sure about ladder if it’s usage but in regular tour games I’ve seen plenty of it’s usage and it being A rank tells me that it is used quite frequently. Anyways, so what would keldeo do to eternatus if it were to set up? With only 4 spa in the EVs:
+6 4 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eternatus: 223-263 (46 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery.
Eternatus doesn’t even have spdef invest whatsoever and keldeo can only 2hko with scald.Now let’s look at secret sword:
+6 4 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eternatus: 169-200 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- 71.6% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery.
Secret sword won’t do much vs it either even after +6, yes it is decent set up mon but I don’t see it doing well in the meta or for it to be D.

Wanted to also mention that you said that it completely breaks ho-oh, well it would need at least 3 Calm Mind set up in order to OHKO ho-oh.
+3 4 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 356-420 (85.5 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 4 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 288-338 (69.2 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
What I’m trying to get at is that you’d need to set up at least +3 vs ho-oh and even if you sub vs it you do know that there are whirlwind sets ran on ho-oh meaning you won’t really get the chance to set up vs it because of it being able to phaze you out of the field before you do.
4 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 144-170 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Wanted to mention that you 3hko it and this isn’t even a max spdef ho-oh which can be ran but defensive is preferred overall it seems. Ho-oh cannot be broken by keldeo unless you have more than +2 set up of calm mind with keldeo.

You’ve mentioned chansey as a breakable mon in general for keldeo, but it is usually paired in a stall team. Stall, yes you get walled or phased out by two stall cores with that set and it will prove ineffective even if you do set up. These mons are giratina and lugia which are the top used cores used on both the ladder and in the tournament scene. Lugia can just whirlwind you out of the field while giratina just pressures you when you use an attack vs it, so same situation as Eternatus basically. Let’s say you do set up all the way to +6 and are playing vs giratina. Well this is how much you’re doing with scald against it.
+6 4 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Giratina: 175-207 (34.7 - 41.1%) -- 67.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even if you do +6 and try to kill Gira it’ll just rest up vs keldeo since you have the 4 SpA EV on it and keep resting until you run out of scald which would be very quickly do to it having the ability Pressure.

My last mention is actually one from D rank in the VR actually and that is Toxapex. You cannot set up vs this mon at all because of it running haze and whatnot so it’s practically useless against it, not just in this meta but in OU as well. It can’t get the opportunity to set up since of haze so you’d just be wasting your turns with keldeo. If you are walled by even a D rank mon I don’t see how it can rise from UR => D like this. There are more answers for keldeo, was too lazy to mention all of them, but this shall do for now.

Hence I suggest it not being ranked up to D and staying UR.
 
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Kate

Moving In Stereo
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past SCL Champion
RBTT Champion
After carefully reading through this keldeo nomination for VR, I’ve wanted to put my input as to why I think it does not have the niche for it to qualify to be the rank of D.
This seems to almost intentionally miss the point of my post so I'll dissect this for clarity.

plus the lack of effective moves to break sub and etc
This is literally my whole point, common cores struggle to break its sub. I dont understand why you just dismiss this casually.

Currently in the VR we have Eternatus which not only walls keldeo, but completely shuts it down because of its ability pressure so keldeo can’t even use scald against it or secret sword even with set up due to it losing more PP every turn because of pressure. I was told in the replay that eternatus is not used in gameplay. I’m not sure about ladder if it’s usage but in regular tour games I’ve seen plenty of it’s usage and it being A rank tells me that it is used quite frequently. Anyways, so what would keldeo do to eternatus if it were to set up? With only 4 spa in the EVs:
+6 4 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eternatus: 223-263 (46 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery.
Eternatus doesn’t even have spdef invest whatsoever and keldeo can only 2hko with scald.Now let’s look at secret sword:
+6 4 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eternatus: 169-200 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- 71.6% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery.
Secret sword won’t do much vs it either even after +6, yes it is decent set up mon but I don’t see it doing well in the meta or for it to be D.
Yes, you're correct, Eternatus beats Keldeo. How does this dictate viability? Is Primal Groudon bad because it loses to Groundceus? Is Xerneas unviable because Dusk Mane exists? The fact that you can only point out one mon in the A ranks that reliably beats Keld should speak to its effectiveness, not the other way around.
Wanted to also mention that you said that it completely breaks ho-oh, well it would need at least 3 Calm Mind set up in order to OHKO ho-oh.
+3 4 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 356-420 (85.5 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 4 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 288-338 (69.2 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
What I’m trying to get at is that you’d need to set up at least +3 vs ho-oh and even if you sub vs it you do know that there are whirlwind sets ran on ho-oh meaning you won’t really get the chance to set up vs it because of it being able to phase you out of the field before you do.
4 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 144-170 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Wanted to mention that you 3hko it and this isn’t even a max spdef ho-oh which can be ran but defensive is preferred overall it seems. Ho-oh cannot be broken by keldeo unless you have more than +2 set up of calm mind with keldeo.
I said it dominates Ho-Oh, not completely breaks it. Keldeo is especially effective as a last mon CMer, which I specifically point out in my post. This is very inconsequential as you can always just dmax if you need to break Ho-Oh that bad. It's also not hard to slot in Koff support.
You’ve mentioned chansey as a breakable mon in general for keldeo, but it is usually paired in a stall team.
Actually no, the prominence of Yveltal and Xern pits Chansey most often on Balance. Stall is not commonly used and the variants seen in AGLT didn't even use Lugia or Giratina.
My last mention is actually one from D rank in the VR actually and that is Toxapex. You cannot set up vs this mon at all because of it running haze and whatnot so it’s practically useless against it, not just in this meta but in OU as well. It can’t get the opportunity to set up since of haze so you’d just be wasting your turns with keldeo. If you are walled by even a D rank mon I don’t see how it can rise from UR => D like this.
Your last line is frankly just bad. Is Zygarde unviable because of Shedinja? Is Ho-Oh quaking in its boots because of the presence of Omastar? This is such an irrelevant pokemon and moreso draws away from your main points rather than aiding them. I have no problem with people disagreeing with this nomination, but there is no fact here to actually back up your argument. Thank you.
 
This seems to almost intentionally miss the point of my post so I'll dissect this for clarity.


This is literally my whole point, common cores struggle to break its sub. I dont understand why you just dismiss this casually.


Yes, you're correct, Eternatus beats Keldeo. How does this dictate viability? Is Primal Groudon bad because it loses to Groundceus? Is Xerneas unviable because Dusk Mane exists? The fact that you can only point out one mon in the A ranks that reliably beats Keld should speak to its effectiveness, not the other way around.

I said it dominates Ho-Oh, not completely breaks it. Keldeo is especially effective as a last mon CMer, which I specifically point out in my post. This is very inconsequential as you can always just dmax if you need to break Ho-Oh that bad. It's also not hard to slot in Koff support.

Actually no, the prominence of Yveltal and Xern pits Chansey most often on Balance. Stall is not commonly used and the variants seen in AGLT didn't even use Lugia or Giratina.

Your last line is frankly just bad. Is Zygarde unviable because of Shedinja? Is Ho-Oh quaking in its boots because of the presence of Omastar? This is such an irrelevant pokemon and moreso draws away from your main points rather than aiding them. I have no problem with people disagreeing with this nomination, but there is no fact here to actually back up your argument. Thank you.
The simple fact is that Keldeo Is completely outclassed at the job you claim it does well. Many Other Mons such as Deoxys A, Zacian, And Mega Ray are far far better at breaking defensive cores. Also HO-Oh is known to carry Whirlwind just phazing away the boosts thus no way Keldeo can break it.

It's also outclassed by arceus as sub cm user who have better bulk, better offensives and more powerful moves to utilise it
 

Spyro

Banned deucer.
I really think Rayquaza Mega should be in S-. While I can't really compate them to Groudon Primal and Ho-Oh because they obviously have completely different uses, it's definitely way more difficult to handle compared to those two and the rankings should reflect that. Mega Rayquaza is basically like a pseudo dynamax Pokemon because it hits incredibly hard while being able to tank super effective hits thanks to delta stream. I've been using Mega Ray a lot and it's so strong that it commonly forces the opponent to dynamax. This is great because it allows you to dynamax later with another pokemon and they won't be able to dynamax anymore often resulting in you winning the battle. Rayquaza can fit into pretty much any team and has a ton of different options at it's disposal. Nothing in the tier is safe from it's attacks. Like lets say you have a dynamax Xerneas and you're planning to sweep with it late game. You can have Rayquaza bait Necrozma with V-create. It's just a great wallbreaker. Then there's DD and even focus sash and scarf to revenge kill. Depending on your team structure Rayquaza is just a hard hitting great Pokemon that you can taylor any way you want and it will always deliver.
 
I really think Rayquaza Mega should be in S-. While I can't really compare them to Groudon Primal and Ho-Oh because they obviously have completely different uses, it's definitely way more difficult to handle compared to those two and the rankings should reflect that. Mega Rayquaza is basically like a pseudo dynamax Pokemon because it hits incredibly hard while being able to tank super effective hits thanks to delta stream. I've been using Mega Ray a lot and it's so strong that it commonly forces the opponent to dynamax. This is great because it allows you to dynamax later with another pokemon and they won't be able to dynamax anymore often resulting in you winning the battle. Rayquaza can fit into pretty much any team and has a ton of different options at it's disposal. Nothing in the tier is safe from it's attacks. Like lets say you have a dynamax Xerneas and you're planning to sweep with it late game. You can have Rayquaza bait Necrozma with V-create. It's just a great wallbreaker. Then there's DD and even focus sash and scarf to revenge kill. Depending on your team structure Rayquaza is just a hard hitting great Pokemon that you can taylor any way you want and it will always deliver.
So your point is rayquaza can kill stuff? While it is very threatening, defensive zygarde (Which is in S) walls it to tell and back , Yveltal (who doesn't take up the mega slot) can wall break and sweep just as well.
 
I really think Rayquaza Mega should be in S-. While I can't really compate them to Groudon Primal and Ho-Oh because they obviously have completely different uses, it's definitely way more difficult to handle compared to those two and the rankings should reflect that. Mega Rayquaza is basically like a pseudo dynamax Pokemon because it hits incredibly hard while being able to tank super effective hits thanks to delta stream. I've been using Mega Ray a lot and it's so strong that it commonly forces the opponent to dynamax. This is great because it allows you to dynamax later with another pokemon and they won't be able to dynamax anymore often resulting in you winning the battle. Rayquaza can fit into pretty much any team and has a ton of different options at it's disposal. Nothing in the tier is safe from it's attacks. Like lets say you have a dynamax Xerneas and you're planning to sweep with it late game. You can have Rayquaza bait Necrozma with V-create. It's just a great wallbreaker. Then there's DD and even focus sash and scarf to revenge kill. Depending on your team structure Rayquaza is just a hard hitting great Pokemon that you can taylor any way you want and it will always deliver.
While I appreciate your effort in your post, it's not the most sound reasoning. First off, while it is a threatening DD sweeper, it can easily be baited into mindgames. The Choice Scarf is for this reason becoming more uncommon, as being locked into one move sucks without the power of a Life Orb or a DD boost. Want to use Dragon Ascent to 2HKO Ho-Oh, Groudon, Zygarde, and so forth? Too bad, NDM and Zacian-C can switch in. Want to use V-create to defeat Steels? Ho-Oh and Zygarde will wall and punish it, and Earthquake is uncommon, so Primal-Groudon can also cause problems. The stat drops certainly are punishable with priority and outspeeding it, and therefore expoitable. Focus Sash is rare, and with Stealth Rock all over the tier, especially with Assurance Zacian-C, it's a waste of a item slot. Just because Delta Stream neutralizes it's Rock weakness doesn't mean it removes its Stealth Rock weakness.

Also, just because it has more sets doesn't equate to a better ranking. Look at Yveltal and Zacian-Crowned, they have only 2 viable sets, and look how much the duo centralized the tier. Zygarde, while having multiple sets, is in S because each set is almost just as good and isn't punishable because Thousand Arrows + Rest + Filler Slots is that good.

The biggest issue holding Mega-Rayquaza is it needing more team support than someone like Zacian-Crowned and Dynamaxing allowing stuff what would previously threaten an OHKO/2HKO to not be even 2HKOed. Zacian-Crowned doesn't take up a Mega slot or Dynamax slot, doesn't require defog support, has a more relevant typing, literally redefined the passable speed tier (130+) in AG, pressures non-Steel resist Dynamaxers with Behemoth Blade, forces teams to run NDM + Primal Groudon + Ho-Oh + Zygarde, and achieve similar feats Mega-Rayquaza can do. It doesn't mean that Mega-Rayquaza isn't great, but by the definition of the S-tier, it doesn't qualify.
 
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Spyro

Banned deucer.
So your point is rayquaza can kill stuff? While it is very threatening, defensive zygarde (Which is in S) walls it to tell and back , Yveltal (who doesn't take up the mega slot) can wall break and sweep just as well.
It´s not like Rayquaza suffers much from 4mss. Sure Extremespeed is nice and all but you can definitely replace it with a dragon move. it´s not at all necessary to have. Ray can beat it´s would be checks. Draco Meteor or Dragon Claw to kill Zygarde after a DD. It´s not like you´re running Draco Meteor just for Zygarde. Draco Meteor also hits Giratina which is common on more defensive teams. You also hit Groudon hard without the need for EQ or defense drops from Dragon Ascent. You say it takes up the Mega slot but it´s literally the best Mega there is? I´m confused.

HanSoloIndie Those mind games go both ways. Want to switch Necrozma DM in on Dragon Ascent? it gets killed by the following V-create. Same for Zacian C. Also you should NEVER switch Zacian C into Rayquaza. As it can also DD and just kill you with EQ the next turn. Want to switch in Zygarde? it gets killed by Draco Meteor. Rayquaza is a lot like Greninja in OU where it can eliminate would be checks for it´s other team mates to have an easier time. This is what makes Ray so good. SD also just tears trough slower defensive teams. Whatever you want it to do, it does it well.

Does anyone else want to chime in? maybe I´m wrong and it's fine in A but I´ve always had way more problems dealing with Mega Rayquaza than the other A pokemon like Groudon and Ho-Oh. It's just so unpredictable, hits hard as hell and it's hard to kill it in one turn and sometimes can´t even 2HKO it before it boosts out of control.
 
It´s not like Rayquaza suffers much from 4mss. Sure Extremespeed is nice and all but you can definitely replace it with a dragon move. it´s not at all necessary to have. Ray can beat it´s would be checks. Draco Meteor or Dragon Claw to kill Zygarde after a DD. It´s not like you´re running Draco Meteor just for Zygarde. Draco Meteor also hits Giratina which is common on more defensive teams. You also hit Groudon hard without the need for EQ or defense drops from Dragon Ascent. You say it takes up the Mega slot but it´s literally the best Mega there is? I´m confused.

HanSoloIndie Those mind games go both ways. Want to switch Necrozma DM in on Dragon Ascent? it gets killed by the following V-create. Same for Zacian C. Also you should NEVER switch Zacian C into Rayquaza. As it can also DD and just kill you with EQ the next turn. Want to switch in Zygarde? it gets killed by Draco Meteor. Rayquaza is a lot like Greninja in OU where it can eliminate would be checks for it´s other team mates to have an easier time. This is what makes Ray so good. SD also just tears trough slower defensive teams. Whatever you want it to do, it does it well.

Does anyone else want to chime in? maybe I´m wrong and it's fine in A but I´ve always had way more problems dealing with Mega Rayquaza than the other A pokemon like Groudon and Ho-Oh. It's just so unpredictable, hits hard as hell and it's hard to kill it in one turn and sometimes can´t even 2HKO it before it boosts out of control.
First of all, MRay is currently in A+, not A. Same for Ho-Oh and Pdon.
The problem with MRay is, he can't have both Draco Meteor, V-create, and EQ at the same time (physical Dragon STAB is awful, don't use it please). Necrozma-DM can actually at least do some chip damage to MRay before he faints. V-create makes contact so MRay gets worn down by the RH. Both Scarf and Sash MRay are horrible, especially since they lack the wallbreaking power that all other sets have. Scarf is a set that I would only use on a TR team to RK Zacian-C, and TR is an almost unviable playstyle. Sash is even worse. I would never use it on a serious team. Stealth Rock makes the Sash completely useless. MRay is both incredibly prediction-reliant, needs team support, AND has many flaws that prevent him from being as good as he was in USUM, so I don't think it belongs anywhere near S Rank.
Xerneas at least has Dynamax and is able to OHKO almost anything after a single Geomancy and is pretty easy to setup if you know what you are doing. Necrozma-DM is an excellent defensive mon that checks stuff like Zacian-C and Xerneas. MRay doesn't really have anything going for it other than being a good wallbreaker in general, but almost every team has Zygarde-C, Necrozma-DM, Pdon, or Zacian-C to check it.
 
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Spyro

Banned deucer.
What are you hitting with EQ that Draco Meteor, V-create and Dragon Ascent doesn´t already hit like a truck? and your post is 1/3rd about Clefable which doesn´t even help Focus Sash Ray since it only works once. You clearly have no idea what you´re talking about if you´re bringing up Clefable. Also what's with the comparisons to Pokemon like Xerneas and Yveltal? as if you have to choose M Ray or the other. I dont get it lol. Alright I´m done with this thread.
 
What are you hitting with EQ that Draco Meteor, V-create and Dragon Ascent doesn´t already hit like a truck? and your post is 1/3rd about Clefable which doesn´t even help Focus Sash Ray since it only works once. You clearly have no idea what you´re talking about if you´re bringing up Clefable. Also what's with the comparisons to Pokemon like Xerneas and Yveltal? as if you have to choose M Ray or the other. I dont get it lol. Alright I´m done with this thread.
EQ hits Pdon for much better damage and can still hit Necrozma-DM while not triggering the RH. I literally wrote A SINGLE sentence about Clefable and you pretend that it was 1/3rd lol. Also I did say that Clefable is basically unviable since it's outclassed by Chansey (WishPort isn't as valuble in AG). The reason why I am comparing MRay with Xerneas and Necrozma-DM is because they are the other mons in S-, where you nominated MRay to. I NEVER compared MRay to Ygod, but I should have since MRay does face a lot of competition with Ygod, so I will now. Ygod wastes your Dynamax abuser slot, while MRay wastes your Mega slot. However, Ygod can beat all of its checks, as well as boosting his Speed with Max Airstream! Too lazy to explain how and why Ygod is so broken rn, so I'll leave this here:
J1mm1P said:
Yveltal can beat every single one of his ''checks''. I will assume that the viable Yveltal sets are:
Yveltal @ Life Orb
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe OR 4 Def / 252 Spa / 252 Spe
Rash / Modest Nature
- Oblivion Wing
- Dark Pulse
- Heat Wave
- Rock Slide / Steel Wing / Knock Off / Sucker Punch / U-turn / Focus Blast / Hidden Power Poison / Taunt

Yveltal @ Choice Band
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Sucker Punch
- Foul Play

Yveltal @ Life Orb
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Sky Attack
- Steel Wing
- Roost

:diancie: :diancie-mega: Loses to Steel Wing LO and Physical.
:tyranitar: :tyranitar-mega: Loses to Focus Blast LO, Choice Band and Physical.
:chansey: Loses to Taunt/Knock Off LO, Choice Band and Physical.
:zacian-crowned: Loses to LO.
:xerneas: Loses to Steel Wing LO and Physical.

And finally, if this was a tier that allowed bans, Yveltal would be banned.
Yes, MRay can also beat its checks but not in the ridiculous way that Ygod does.
If you still think that MRay outclasses/is better than Ygod, think twice before posting about that since basically everyone will disagree. There is a reason that Ygod is in S+.
 
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