Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Moyashi]

That is not my point, if you want to hit harder, choice band ttar has a larger attack stat, if you want a special wall, its assault vest ttar, not saying mega ttar is unviable, it is just less speicalized

Mega Ttar performs all the roles of both these sets while not falling to their drawbacks. AV locks Ttar out of status moves while also making it deceptively passive and rather easy to take advantage of, while choice band is very prediction reliant and really hates getting locked into the wrong move, plus it's nowhere near as bulky and thus has rather significantly reduced defensive utility (and that might sound strange given the spdef boost in sand, but the lack of any bulk investment is very noticeable on a pokemon also so hampered by hazards). Mega Ttar is more than specially bulky enough while also being plenty strong enough to function as a breaker, and if you want to, a DD attacker.

Mega Ttar is a very good pick right now (already was trending upwards during the Zama metagame) and had there been rises this last month, it actually would've risen to OU proper. It does a lot for teambuilding and I encourage anyone unsure about it to give it a go! It's really nice.

 

[Patar136]

You know, all this talk about Tyranitar makes me think of another Pokemon who probably has the sauce.



Yeah, it's time we talk about Excadrill, Tyranitar's best friend. This mole rat definitely benefits from Zamazenta being gone since that was a Pokemon that could not be broken easily aside from gimmicky Iron Head flinches. Excadrill matches up well against a variety of threats, including Toxapex, Tapu Lele and most importantly, Raging Bolt. Steelium Z sets are probably pretty nasty at breaking stuff though life orb is definitely an option. Thanks to sand rush you outrun a lot of scarfers/+1 speedsters in the sand, you are naturally threatening to sun teams and you are great against opposing Tyranitar in the event you see one. Excadrill does Excadrill things.

However, I would be lying if I didn't see a few drawbacks. For one, like Tyranitar you are pretty terrible against Great Tusk and even compete for the same slot as Great Tusk as an offensive spinner with ground typing and a far more threatening STAB combo in the current metagame. You also stack a water weakness, especially bad against rain, and another fighting weakness when you pair up Tyranitar with Excadrill (unless you wanna go all in on Hippowdon.) Plus, with the sand not being permanent, you can find yourself on a timer when on the field as Excadrill relies on the weather, unlike Great Tusk, Landorus, Gliscor, Iron Threads (a bulkier Excadrill) and Garchomp. Being forced out by Mega Charizard Y when its on the field doesn't help either.

 

[Enderchau2704]

You know, all this talk about Tyranitar makes me think of another Pokemon who probably has the sauce.



Yeah, it's time we talk about Excadrill, Tyranitar's best friend. This mole rat definitely benefits from Zamazenta being gone since that was a Pokemon that could not be broken easily aside from gimmicky Iron Head flinches. Excadrill matches up well against a variety of threats, including Toxapex, Tapu Lele and most importantly, Raging Bolt. Steelium Z sets are probably pretty nasty at breaking stuff though life orb is definitely an option. Thanks to sand rush you outrun a lot of scarfers/+1 speedsters in the sand, you are naturally threatening to sun teams and you are great against opposing Tyranitar in the event you see one. Excadrill does Excadrill things.

However, I would be lying if I didn't see a few drawbacks. For one, like Tyranitar you are pretty terrible against Great Tusk and even compete for the same slot as Great Tusk as an offensive spinner with ground typing and a far more threatening STAB combo in the current metagame. You also stack a water weakness, especially bad against rain, and another fighting weakness when you pair up Tyranitar with Excadrill (unless you wanna go all in on Hippowdon.) Plus, with the sand not being permanent, you can find yourself on a timer when on the field as Excadrill relies on the weather, unlike Great Tusk, Landorus, Gliscor, Iron Threads (a bulkier Excadrill) and Garchomp. Being forced out by Mega Charizard Y when its on the field doesn't help either.

Something to consider.
Excadrill could also be usable outside of sand using mold breaker, mold breaker is a soild all around abilty for a breaker being able to deny regenerator or otherwise pressure deny defensive mons dependent on their ability like gliscor's poison heal, deny glowking and alohamola's regenerator, safely touch a zapdos or volcarona when excadrill is rapid spinning.

 

[Runo]

Mold Breaker doesnt prevent any of these abilities from activating btw.

 

[Dahness]

Something to consider.
Excadrill could also be usable outside of sand using mold breaker, mold breaker is a soild all around abilty for a breaker being able to deny regenerator or otherwise pressure deny defensive mons dependent on their ability like gliscor's poison heal, deny glowking and alohamola's regenerator, safely touch a zapdos or volcarona when excadrill is rapid spinning.

I think ur confusing mold breaker for neutralazing gas

 

[Oculars]

Something to consider.
Excadrill could also be usable outside of sand using mold breaker, mold breaker is a soild all around abilty for a breaker being able to deny regenerator or otherwise pressure deny defensive mons dependent on their ability like gliscor's poison heal, deny glowking and alohamola's regenerator, safely touch a zapdos or volcarona when excadrill is rapid spinning.

mold breaker only ignores whats called ignorable abilities, the list of which can be found here, none of the abilities you listed are considered ignorable.
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Category:Ignorable_Abilities

 

[Patar136]

Mold Breaker Excadrill is a decent Pokemon in its own right, but again, you face a lot of stiff competition from Iron Threads who has the exact same typing, is bulkier, and has an arguably better ability in Quark Drive since it can abuse this ability well with Tapu Koko synergizing well with it. Iron Threads switches into poison attacks while Tapu Koko switches into fighting attacks. Not perfect since they share a ground weakness but that is workable and it makes up for it with some unique moves like Ice Spinner, Volt Switch, Body Press and Knock Off.

I think if Excadrill has a niche in OU, it's as a sand rush sweeper. Just as rain packs Mega Swampert and less common options like Kingdra and Barraskewda, while sun sometimes packs Chlorophyll Venusaur, Sand Rush Excadrill can be a good offensive cleaner/wallbreaker when set up properly. It's something Great Tusk cannot do, or at least, not as reliably if it has to go with plus speed to activate a boosted protosynthesis. Excadrill seems like a specialized Great Tusk who cannot abuse sun, no longer resists dark and isn't as good of a counter to Tyranitar but does gain a toxic immunity, retains the quad stealth rock resist and abuses sand more directly while also punishing opposing Tyranitar for existing even if it can't switch into it as safely.

Swords Dance and Toxic are actually unique tools in Excadrill's tool kit since it amps up its threat potential and allows you to go all out offensively I would say Mold Breaker is great against stuff like Rotom Wash, who doesn't seem that common, and against Unaware walls since you can stack swords dance but Dondozo is still a massive pain and its only Clodsire and Clefable (which are good targets) that you can break this way.

The mole rat has promise, it doesn't seem bad or unusable. But it does seem to be highly specific.

 

[Dahness]

Mold Breaker Excadrill is a decent Pokemon in its own right, but again, you face a lot of stiff competition from Iron Threads who has the exact same typing, is bulkier, and has an arguably better ability in Quark Drive since it can abuse this ability well with Tapu Koko synergizing well with it. Iron Threads switches into poison attacks while Tapu Koko switches into fighting attacks. Not perfect since they share a ground weakness but that is workable and it makes up for it with some unique moves like Ice Spinner, Volt Switch, Body Press and Knock Off.

I think if Excadrill has a niche in OU, it's as a sand rush sweeper. Just as rain packs Mega Swampert and less common options like Kingdra and Barraskewda, while sun sometimes packs Chlorophyll Venusaur, Sand Rush Excadrill can be a good offensive cleaner/wallbreaker when set up properly. It's something Great Tusk cannot do, or at least, not as reliably if it has to go with plus speed to activate a boosted protosynthesis. Excadrill seems like a specialized Great Tusk who cannot abuse sun, no longer resists dark and isn't as good of a counter to Tyranitar but does gain a toxic immunity, retains the quad stealth rock resist and abuses sand more directly while also punishing opposing Tyranitar for existing even if it can't switch into it as safely.

Swords Dance and Toxic are actually unique tools in Excadrill's tool kit since it amps up its threat potential and allows you to go all out offensively I would say Mold Breaker is great against stuff like Rotom Wash, who doesn't seem that common, and against Unaware walls since you can stack swords dance but Dondozo is still a massive pain and its only Clodsire and Clefable (which are good targets) that you can break this way.

The mole rat has promise, it doesn't seem bad or unusable. But it does seem to be highly specific.

The thing with exca rn is that its outclassed by treads, which has the same typing but a better speed tier and can also make good use of quark drive. One big thing treads has over exca imo is ice spinner, exca is kinda....useless into stuff like lando and glisc

 

[Moyashi]

The thing with exca rn is that its outclassed by treads, which has the same typing but a better speed tier and can also make good use of quark drive. One big thing treads has over exca imo is ice spinner, exca is kinda....useless into stuff like lando and glisc

you face a lot of stiff competition from Iron Threads who has the exact same typing, is bulkier, and has an arguably better ability in Quark Drive since it can abuse this ability well with Tapu Koko synergizing well with it. Iron Threads switches into poison attacks while Tapu Koko switches into fighting attacks. Not perfect since they share a ground weakness but that is workable and it makes up for it with some unique moves like Ice Spinner, Volt Switch, Body Press and Knock Off.

Being generous, Treads is extremely fringe itself and only really justifiable on some rain teams as a super specific role and even then, it's not that notable there, as well as a suicide lead. But it's honestly disappointing even at those roles, as it invites threatening pokemon at lead off such as Urshifu, Ursaluna, Mega Medicham, Mega Lopunny and Volcarona to just start their game off strong. It really does not outclass Excadrill at all, let alone give it competition as offensively it's just very underwhelming. Mola squads just walk all over it, and it really can't make progress vs them beyond maybe getting a knock off. It also is a spinner that just gets dumpstered by Ferrothorn really badly, who gets to rock in its face and even leech seed while Treads wears itself down.

Regarding the whole bulk argument, physical bulk it does have Exca beat but as far as special bulk goes, It's not really a difference worth noting though exca is more specially bulky. Treads is also just a very inflexible pokemon since past its EQ+Spin necessity, it also really needs Ice Spinner so isn't blanked by Lando-T/Gliscor which leaves only one free slot and no matter what it chooses, it has issues. Iron Head is necessary so it can threaten fairies it might pivot into, but dropping knock off for it means it gets stone walled by Ferro/Mola/Zapdos (defensive Zap ftr) and more. Exca doesn't really have the same issues since it can run Toxic to cripple Lando-T, Mola and Zapdos and it's a spinner that can overwhelm Ferro in some match ups, where Treads will never. And offensively, though I don't think too highly of sand atm, if you really want to run Exca for sweeping, Tera Blast sets with either Water or Ice let it bypass Gliscor/Lando and possibly Zapdos, making handling it tougher after an SD.

Not that it's amazing, but it's a notably better pokemon than Treads, and certainly better acclimatised to the OU metagame with a more justifiable role that actually does work sometimes.

 

[Patar136]

It does help Excadrill that it doesn't take sandstorm chip if it decides to Tera since Sand Rush gives it a sandstorm immunity. Tera Water makes a lot of sense since it gives you a fire resistance and allows you to hit Landorus for super effective damage as well as other grounds like Great Tusk and Gliscor. But another Tera I can see use for is Fairy to provide a fighting resist as well as a defensive answer to Urshifu, resisting Great Tusk's dangerous STAB that probably OHKOs you, while now able to threaten dragons directly. Other Tera options like Fire, Steel and Rock also probably have their applications (the latter boosting your rock attack and now giving a special defense boost.)

If I were to guess, the best set would probably be Swords Dance, Rock Slide, Earthquake, Rapid Spin/Iron Head/Tera Blast. The last move seems very customizable. You want Iron Head to break fairies, you appreciate Rapid Spin support and Tera Blast can be situational. Again, with Zamazenta gone you gain more usefulness as a Pokemon since you were basically useless when that dog was roaming around. I like the discussion so far.

Oh yeah, I suppose you could add Stealth Rock but that seems like a wasted moveslot. Unless you lead Excadrill. In which case, Tera Ghost.

 

[Moyashi]

Just popping in with some random thoughts and feelings as well as talking about some cool stuff post Zama. The metagame has definitely felt better with its absence. No longer having to bend over backwards with such specific structures or pokemon makes teambuilding a lot more free feeling. There are some challenging mons to answer still but it definitely feels like a sizable improvement. There's a good deal of room for innovation and experimentation and I like that.

Speaking of which

Iron Hands @ Assault Vest
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 136 Atk / 4 Def / 208 SpD / 160 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ice Punch
- Drain Punch
- Wild Charge
- Earthquake

This mon still feels a little awkward in some match ups at times but it has also felt a decent bit more helpful now that it doesn't have to worry about thudding into Zama who could then start boosting potentially in front of it. I think AV Hands has a decent niche for now as a Dark type check that especially is strong into Darkrai, beating most of its sets well. The bulk is also useful for trading blows with other special attackers that can let it sort of emergency check things in a pinch, such as being able to stomach ZardY hits and threaten it out. Or if you get put in an awkward spot by Mega Diancie and need something to threaten it after losing a mon,

228 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 208 SpD Assault Vest Iron Hands: 254-300 (56.5 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

AV Hands can do that. I think this set does well especially paired with Wish Mola for back up to ensure it stays around as long as possible. And again, helpful to stomach dark type threats such as MTtar and Samurott-H. Though having back up is also necessary but I think this set is alright for now.

Darkrai @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp

This one I've been toying around with and I actually enjoy the utility aspect of Darkrai almost more than its sheer breaking power. Playing more to a longer game by knocking off the items of would be switch ins like Heatran or Garganacl, maybe even Koko, while threatening other switch ins like Samurott-H, Weavile and MTtar with burns. Ice Beam is mainly there to ensure Gliscor is covered, and it helps vs Lando if necessary and can be used to beat Dragonites that may pop up. It's an unorthodox set but I think it's fun, and interesting.

 

[Dahness]

Just popping in with some random thoughts and feelings as well as talking about some cool stuff post Zama. The metagame has definitely felt better with its absence. No longer having to bend over backwards with such specific structures or pokemon makes teambuilding a lot more free feeling. There are some challenging mons to answer still but it definitely feels like a sizable improvement. There's a good deal of room for innovation and experimentation and I like that.

Speaking of which

View attachment 639378

Iron Hands @ Assault Vest
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 136 Atk / 4 Def / 208 SpD / 160 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ice Punch
- Drain Punch
- Wild Charge
- Earthquake

This mon still feels a little awkward in some match ups at times but it has also felt a decent bit more helpful now that it doesn't have to worry about thudding into Zama who could then start boosting potentially in front of it. I think AV Hands has a decent niche for now as a Dark type check that especially is strong into Darkrai, beating most of its sets well. The bulk is also useful for trading blows with other special attackers that can let it sort of emergency check things in a pinch, such as being able to stomach ZardY hits and threaten it out. Or if you get put in an awkward spot by Mega Diancie and need something to threaten it after losing a mon,

228 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 208 SpD Assault Vest Iron Hands: 254-300 (56.5 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

AV Hands can do that. I think this set does well especially paired with Wish Mola for back up to ensure it stays around as long as possible. And again, helpful to stomach dark type threats such as MTtar and Samurott-H. Though having back up is also necessary but I think this set is alright for now.

View attachment 639381

Darkrai @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp

This one I've been toying around with and I actually enjoy the utility aspect of Darkrai almost more than its sheer breaking power. Playing more to a longer game by knocking off the items of would be switch ins like Heatran or Garganacl, maybe even Koko, while threatening other switch ins like Samurott-H, Weavile and MTtar with burns. Ice Beam is mainly there to ensure Gliscor is covered, and it helps vs Lando if necessary and can be used to beat Dragonites that may pop up. It's an unorthodox set but I think it's fun, and interesting.

i like hands, but i havent used it in a while (last time was around the end of dlc 1-start of dlc 2),it is able to take hits due to its humongous hp stat, then set up and clean, especially late game. My favorite core was hands+rilla, as rilla's terrain basically flips the matchups vs stuff like , , and many more. With zama gone and a big lack of ghost types(dirge is very niche) i think hands can be a pretty good breaker/wincon, especially since the zama ban promotes the use of dark types such as hsamu, rai, mega tar(as u said), while also taking on more defensive mons like mola pex etc.Overall,i think this thing can become a legit meta mon.
As a sidenote, i think it can be pretty versatile, too. It can thrive pretty well in tr with booster energy too.

 

[Patar136]

I like Iron Hands as a bulky electric/fighting type who can act as a win condition against some team styles. Some of the cons are that it competes with Raging Bolt, one of the best electric types in the format who packs priority to compensate for its low speed in certain match ups (which Iron Hands also suffers from), a similar vulnerability to all forms of passive damage, suffers as a Tera sink and finally is a lot worse against the ground types than competing electric types.
However, its pros include perfect coverage in its moveset, bulk to allow it to stomach at least a few hits at full HP, good synergy with partners like Rillaboom, Serperior, Charizard, most water types and is a great answer to Darkrai as mentioned. Darkrai needs to slot in less common tools to hurt it and doesn’t do well even when it has those tools. The best it can do is Tera poison with sludge bomb to try to break it, which can be punished.

 

[Enderchau2704]

I have been playing the metagame lately, does anyone notice that Ogerpon-Teal is rising in usage as a fast pivot? The usage behind this is that it's tera provides a stab+speed boost making it a fast and deadly. Funny how it was discovered.

 

[Patar136]

Can't say much about the Ogerpon line up but I do think that with one form banned and the other controversial it's not gonna be long before we find applications for the other two forms. They just have good stat distributions and can brute force their way through games at times. The fire form was especially awful to face because it was practically impossible to wall and was too strong. The water form, Waterpon as it is called, has a similar effect but is just under being broken (but I would argue it leaving this tier) is not a bad thing.) As for the rock one and standard form, yeah they can definitely be optimized.

 

[Moyashi]

Random thoughts after playing the last couple weeks (and also because I'm stuck in bed due to being sick bleh)



Gouging Fire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 244 HP / 64 Def / 192 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Claw
- Burning Bulwark
- Morning Sun

Gouging Fire is well regarded in National Dex thanks to the strength of its Dragon Dance sets, especially those packing Z moves for even more burst power that can potentially invalidate would be defensive answers. Notably Z Outrage having the potential to blow past many Toxapex variants at +1 with the slightest prior chip. But I always thought it was a shame that the strength of these sets overshadowed the fact it has such a unique and strong signature move in Burning Bulwark, which is a protect variant that applies burns to would be contact attackers. So I've been wondering if there was a way to make use of it somehow.

This set is entirely experimental, but it plays off the idea of using its bulk to soft check various threats while having the capacity to punish common contact moves such as U-Turn or Knock Off, or the notoriously annoying Ceaseless Edge. The purpose of the special defense investment is to offer a buffer into certain special threats, such as blanking Tapu Koko, being good into Iron Valiant (Burning Bulwark helping potentially for SD sets even), and especially effective into ZardY as well as helpful for switching around Iron Crown. And the Tera choice is there to offer back up into opposing Gouging Fire and potentially Raging Bolt if necessary.

 

[boppy]

I have been playing the metagame lately, does anyone notice that Ogerpon-Teal is rising in usage as a fast pivot? The usage behind this is that it's tera provides a stab+speed boost making it a fast and deadly. Funny how it was discovered.

srry but i don't see veganpon ever being competitively good, especially as a pivot. it's stab and weak coverage doesn't do good into a lot of tier, like into lando, corv, msciz. the reason why the other forms are so much stronger is because of that second stab option, like firepon was so absurdly broken because fire/grass/fairy coverage was pretty much unresisted. pivot set on pon just makes it worse, because you want to drop a move for u-turn, maybe spikes, and knock off, which further weaken your potential to be threatening. it has so little things going for it in comparison to a much better grass pivot in the tier, meowscarada, which features a double stab in knock off, has protean. don't see a genuine reason to use veganpon rn.

 

[Moyashi]

srry but i don't see veganpon ever being competitively good, especially as a pivot. it's stab and weak coverage doesn't do good into a lot of tier, like into lando, corv, msciz. the reason why the other forms are so much stronger is because of that second stab option, like firepon was so absurdly broken because fire/grass/fairy coverage was pretty much unresisted. pivot set on pon just makes it worse, because you want to drop a move for u-turn, maybe spikes, and knock off, which further weaken your potential to be threatening. it has so little things going for it in comparison to a much better grass pivot in the tier, meowscarada, which features a double stab in knock off, has protean. don't see a genuine reason to use veganpon rn.

Grasspon's advantage is its access to Encore which is an invaluable move to have for containing set up threats. This is especially relevant when its tera also comes with a perma speed boost, letting it emergency check these boosting threats for teams. Grasspon is not meant to be a direct threat itself but a disruptive pivot. Meow really isn't something I would call better, especially when it gets its mits torn up by Ferrothorn and falls on issues with item choice (same issues as in standard SV OU). Its main stabs are also rather exploitable in one form or another (grass being poor stab and knock off losing strength against itemless or knocked targets). It's a fairly hazard weak mon without boots but without a boosting item it's fairly weak.

Also it's not good into Lando? It has Defiant which punishes Lando's intimidate.

 

[boppy]

sry abt that, totally forgot about lando, if ur gonna tera u lose that boost tho, which is the entire point of a fast pivot encorer
+1 252 Atk Ogerpon Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 178-211 (46.5 - 55.2%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
still doesnt 2kho in the early game however

my issue is that i dont see pivotpon as a good set in general, sure, you're a fast disruptor, but you're hogging tera for that speed boost and sacrificing a TON of raw power for that, if ur gonna run any pon please run sd

i would say stab knock off is pretty important for meow, and having a faster speed tier definitely raises it some points, not to mention it gets STAB on all its coverages, see taxel, stronger turn, u can get spikes, etc,
the difference is that in order to make pivotpon work on par/better than meow, it basically requires tera, in which meow does not

meow runs ppads usually, pivotpon wants boots like always, i don't see the item choice issue imo

(also why tf did every like/love his comment but laugh at mine istg im gonna get my revenge arc yall suck)

 

[Moyashi]

sry abt that, totally forgot about lando, if ur gonna tera u lose that boost tho, which is the entire point of a fast pivot encorer
+1 252 Atk Ogerpon Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 178-211 (46.5 - 55.2%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
still doesnt 2kho in the early game however

my issue is that i dont see pivotpon as a good set in general, sure, you're a fast disruptor, but you're hogging tera for that speed boost and sacrificing a TON of raw power for that, if ur gonna run any pon please run sd

For one thing that’s a ton of damage on landoT early game which is nice for breaking it open for other teammates to abuse. But also it’s not meant to beat it early? Although it will kill if the first hit is a crit followed into a second hit. But that’s getting off topic.

You lose defiant after Tera but this typically is mid game anyways if it is done. And not sure how losing defiant takes away from fast encore? That’s the point of grasspon. Solid natural speed which lets it encore and emergency check things post Tera with its speed boost that are trying to set up.

you’re looking at it wrong. Grasspon being there doesn’t mean it’s automatically taking the Tera slot. It’s just there in emergencies. You keep talking about power but that’s not what this Mon is about. It’s utility and this is does alright.

i would say stab knock off is pretty important for meow, and having a faster speed tier definitely raises it some points, not to mention it gets STAB on all its coverages, see taxel, stronger turn, u can get spikes, etc,
the difference is that in order to make pivotpon work on par/better than meow, it basically requires tera, in which meow does not

meow runs ppads usually, pivotpon wants boots like always, i don't see the item choice issue imo

meow is pretty underwhelming as speed control in general tbh. It often needs hefty chip to attempt to revenge kill neutral targets, and without a scarf it fails to match the speed of boosted threats. It also thuds into defensive teams without a boosting item which is really annoying since if you’re running a non boots item on Meow you’ll end up getting torn up by hazards pretty quickly. Grasspon can at least wear boots since it has the option to use Tera to emergency check boosted threats.

Also the nonexistent defensive utility blows too.

 

[Dahness]

I have used base Ogerppon since it came out, and i wanna say with my whole heart that i dont like that mon.Unlike the other forms, it has a very weak stab.100bp stab grass move that has a crit chance seems great, but then you realise its just that.... a grass move.Basepon also suffers SEVERELY from 4 mss.You want your cudgel stab, but then u also want rock tomb for the birds ( ) stomping tantrum for (u could run superpower which also helps vs ferro) play rough for the various dragon types, u also wanna run sd, and even if u run band, it's still meh imo, it forces you to use tera on it just so that it can outspeed mons.Problem is, even if ogerpon outspeeds them, mosf ot them are gonna take its stabs like its nothing.

 

[boppy]

For one thing that’s a ton of damage on landoT early game which is nice for breaking it open for other teammates to abuse. But also it’s not meant to beat it early? Although it will kill if the first hit is a crit followed into a second hit. But that’s getting off topic.

You lose defiant after Tera but this typically is mid game anyways if it is done. And not sure how losing defiant takes away from fast encore? That’s the point of grasspon. Solid natural speed which lets it encore and emergency check things post Tera with its speed boost that are trying to set up.

you’re looking at it wrong. Grasspon being there doesn’t mean it’s automatically taking the Tera slot. It’s just there in emergencies. You keep talking about power but that’s not what this Mon is about. It’s utility and this is does alright.



meow is pretty underwhelming as speed control in general tbh. It often needs hefty chip to attempt to revenge kill neutral targets, and without a scarf it fails to match the speed of boosted threats. It also thuds into defensive teams without a boosting item which is really annoying since if you’re running a non boots item on Meow you’ll end up getting torn up by hazards pretty quickly. Grasspon can at least wear boots since it has the option to use Tera to emergency check boosted threats.

Also the nonexistent defensive utility blows too.

- i was talking about pon's speed increase w tera as a fast pivot, not defiant, and ogerpon with a 110 base speed stat isnt that good for a fast pivot. you really need tera to make total use of ogerpon. meow is faster and generally more reliable.
- meow isnt supposed to break, its supposed to clean and pivot, inviting things like bolt on corv, its actually more powerful than pon because of protean
- scarf meow is literally its worst set..?? its not useful and should not be mentioned
- if you're running boots encore pon, i assume you're ivy/knock/uturn/encore which cannot set hazards unlike spikes meow nor do anything to literally half the tier, you can knock but then u just fall flat to knocked mons like corv which generally dont mind about missing helm, at least meow can knock helm off of corv and then break through it with stab taxel, if ppads u dont need to knock first
- boots meow is okay, you're supposed to be a pivot anyway so theres no intention to break, you do have to be careful about the birds, although u can risk knocking them, pon is threatened the same way tho
- what do you mean the defensive utility? encore? yes, its nice to have encore on say, sr lando, but against boosted threats u need increased speed from tera to check it. id argue that if you're smart, you can make use of meow's dark typing to not get blown over by specs lele for example

in general, id say meow is just more reliable since it has a faster speed tier, not to mention ogerpon's 110 being really mid for a pivot, needing to tera to increase its speed. you say that tera is just an emergency option but 350 speed is not speed control nor is it an effective pivot, especially with so many better options, see: mlop, scarf lando, meow, urshifu, koko. you can even run encore lop(ew) if you really want the disruption part, which unlike pon has natural perfect coverage and is the fastest meta-relevant mon around
pivotveganpon is just not good in what it offers opposed to the other actually fast pivots in the tier

 

[Patar136]

So I have been watching some replays and I think that there is a Pokemon I wanna give some attention to. Great Tusk.

Great Tusk definitely likes that Zamazenta isn’t around anymore as it means it isn’t outclassed as a fighting type by an Uber who is faster and stronger. Its typing still has a lot of benefits as it forces Raging Bolt to click non electric coverage options, quad resists rock coverage, and is a relatively reliable spinner. Its physical bulk allows it to check a good amount of physical attackers and retaliate with its two stab options, with a fourth move that is very customizable. Stealth Rock, Knock Off, Ice Spinner, Bulk Up, even Tera Blast. It’s also good against some bulky stuff like Toxapex, Garganacl, Ferrothorn, Clodsire, Ting-Lu and some others. Being able to reliably spin against Glimmora is a nice bonus as even if it Tera’s against you, that means it has to burn Tera that might go to its teammates. Its cons are that it really hates status, as that compromises its effectiveness by a lot. It’s also not amazing into Alomomola, downright bad against Dondozo, and can be revenge killed by a series of threats especially on the special side. Still, nice to see that the upgraded Donphan does well.

 

[Moyashi]

scarf meow is literally its worst set..?? its not useful and should not be mentioned

sorry but this just isn’t true. Scarf Meow being able to revenge kill Booster Val (albeit after some chip) is very valuable since few things outrun it otherwise (the other being scarf Darkrai). Scarf is also useful for handling scale shot Garchomp (not super common but helpful none the less, and it’s useful vs other scarfers as well. It’s not a great set and Meow is very niche to begin with but it’s absolutely there and far from “worst set”.

you can knock but then u just fall flat to knocked mons like corv which generally dont mind about missing helm, at least meow can knock helm off of corv and then break through it with stab taxel, if ppads u dont need to knock first

Corv absolutely hates losing helmet, since it stops being a good punish to physical attackers afterwards and thus becomes very easy to abuse. Also Meow ain’t breaking through Corv with taxel, not without band but then you’re just worse weavile.

for the record I’m not calling grasspon good, just saying it has a niche and merit over Meow

Its physical bulk allows it to check a good amount of physical attackers and retaliate with its two stab options,

Tusk is definitely better a little bit post Zama, but I feel its main issues haven’t gone away.

It actually doesn’t have a very easy time fitting fighting stab outside sun structures because you’re already running ground stab and rapid spin, and Ice spinner is pretty non negotiable unless you want tusk getting walled by lando and gliscor, as well as Zapdos/torn-t. You also need ice spinner on stealth rock sets since those same flying types will just remove your rocks over and over. Knock is usually the easiest catch all choice since it’s always useful, but I think BU is the way to go with Tusk since that can be a strong wincon under the right conditions that also brings good utility through spin.

Tusk is still a GOOD Pokémon though flaws and all. Maybe we’ll see some cool innovations in the near future! Always exciting to think about

 

[boppy]

nah im sorry scarf meow just isnt a good set lol, there is literally no other set that is worse, boots, ppads, band is better. u get rkos but in turn u get punished by birds and helm and having to predict, you can easily slot a check to ival/chomp on the teams you slot meow on(gking for ival for example)
corv doesnt hate losing helm at all, in fact some people run boots or lefties corv, you can still defog and pivot. its like rhelm on clef, you dont need it, but its very nice to have. i don't know what mons abuse corv if it doesnt have helm, shifu? u still roost, bbird, uturn out like you usually would
252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Corviknight: 131-157 (32.8 - 39.3%) -- approx. 99.4% chance to 3HKO
eh. its possible, but difficult to break through it, you need to pair meow with something that can consistently force corv out/force tera dragon, you need ~30% chip on corv on 2kho, keep in mind grasspon could never break thru corv tho(unless opp is bad and defogs on the defiant)

imo meow is just better than veganpon as a grass type fast pivot, grasspon's only niche above it is a faster speed tier requiring tera and encore. very specific traits, i can see where you're coming from but i'd usually choose meow for that slot over pon

dude wth give me likes and loves like you did w Moyashi's posts?? stop replying with sad faces. how am i making you sad. literal haters, all of you