Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Moisture99]

- Gave 5 for lele and glisc, 2 for pon, 1 for everything else.
- Zama can't make progress into anything remotely fat without fsight which happens to get absorbed by slowbro or ghold anyway. So easy to tune an offensive team so that u don't insta lose to id zama too, such as running booster val, bulky ghold, scarf lele, ur own roar zama, etc just bad teambuilding otherwise.
- Moon is checked by like at least two mons on every single team, telegraphed if booster or z, always loses to a hefty chunk of the metagame no matter what set it runs, still loses to a bunch of stuff even with the right set, vulnerable to priority. Just a teambuilding check like zama.
- Gambit is another builder check. Sd is one thing, though still not broken since fighting types are both abundant and good at checking it (as well as stuff like lando corv samu skarm fast wisp encore), but please seriously rethink your perspective if you think pursuit is an issue lol
- Ghold is very good but easy enough to offensively pressure and gets fried by hazards
- Pon is annoying but i wanna keep it around because it beats a lot of the cringe
- Lele I don't really think is broken but a suspect test would be interesting to see so i gave it a 5 lol.
- Gliscor I think is a brain melting menace that should actually be tested. Probably not for a ban on it (or any other mon) but its super wack nonetheless

 

[Toxic Ariados]

- Lele I don't really think is broken but a suspect test would be interesting to see so i gave it a 5 lol.

Lele is just not broken, it's simply another threat to prep for, while also functioning as a great option for teambuilding. Lele also acts as a great hindrance to the Sucker Punch Menace . A suspect on Lele would be a nothing but a time waster, it would be nice to focus on suspecting more important things (unless I am absolutely wrong and Lele is the most broken thing in existence and I'm just not seeing it).

Anyways... survey time!

Enjoyment - 9:

I don't think I've ever had this much fun playing National Dex. Banning Tera was the best thing to ever happen to the format and if you think otherwise you are a stinky doodoo butt. There are so many new Pokemon and team styles to mess around with, and none of them feel overwhelming to play against. I love not having to stress over whether the enemy will Tera Steel on my Toxic and sweep me for making a logical play.

Balance - 8:

To me, nothing feels overwhelmingly powerful right now. There is one thing that I think is a bit strong (I'll get to that later), but I don't think it's necessarily banworthy as counterplay isn't too unreasonable. It does feel like the better player will win most of the time. No playstyle seems overly centralizing. The metagame seems to mesh together very well.

- 1: Mr. Annoying Gremlin #1. Blocking all forms of hazard removal is irritating on paper, until you realize that pretty much all of our hazard removers are tailored to beat this guy. Even things like Corviknight, who can't threaten it offensively, can click U-Turn on the switch and go into something that can punish it. Its middling Speed, the loss of Tera, and the existence of Pursuit are heavy chains weighing it down from becoming the dangerous force it was around year ago.

- 2: Fighting types seem to be on the rise now that Dragapult got the axe, and Kingambit has to deal with that. Having Knock Off and Pursuit are significant buffs compared to its SVOU variant, but I don't think that they change its counterplay that much. Knock Off is annoying, but that damage drop-off can be your downfall if you are going up against fatter targets or Megas, and Pursuit is not as safe to use as people make it out to be. A lot of the things Kingambit wants to Pursuit trap have ways to OHKO it (with stuff like Focus Blast) if it tries to use the move. Mapping out a plan against Kingambit isn't that bad. As long as you can preserve at least one of your checks to deal with its Supreme Overlord endgame, then it should be no problem. Not to mention Low Kick variants get turned into setup fodder by every Fairy type in existence ( go brrrrrrrr). It's still dangerous, but nothing overwhelming.

- 1: This guy isn't broken at all. It has excellent coverage and decent set versatility, but we have so many checks ( etc.) that can stop it in its tracks. I've been seeing a lot more 4-attacks and Choice Band variants, and those can never pack all the coverage moves that they want. There will always be a Pokemon to blank any All-Out Attacker Zamazenta set. ID Press is an Achilles Heel set. It can absolutely annihilate weakened teams, but if you put one bulky Ghost type in front of it then its onslaught gets halted. Crunch will do minimal damage due to how ID Zamazenta needs to invest in Defense EVs to be powerful. We should definitely keep Zamazenta around, it's fast and powerful, but it's abundance of counters holds it back from being too overwhelming.

- 1: Mr. Annoying Gremlin #2. Gliscor just doesn't know how to die. There's something so infuriating about watching a Gliscor heal from 5% of its HP to 100%. That being said, without Tera, it doesn't really have a way to curb its 4x weakness to Ice. As annoying as it is, I would never advocate to ban it, similar to Gholdengo, you can find ways around it.

- 1: I already made my thoughts known on Roaring Moon here. It isn't broken and its sets can be weaved around by careful playing.

- 1: I'm kinda surprised to see this on the survey. Lele acts as excellent speed control and as a great breaker against fatter teams. It's one of the things stopping the format from being ruled by Dark types, and I think that's a good thing. To me, it doesn't seem to be doing anything all that harmful. Being under 100 Speed makes non-Choice Scarf easy to revenge KO. Scarf can also be played around by clever switching, thus forcing the opponent to make correct predictions or risk leaving themselves open to attack.

- 2: Honestly, this would be more closer to a 2.5, if not a 3. I would probably change my original ranking to a 3 if possible. I do think Wellspring is a bit straining on the teambuilder, but there is significant offensive counterplay to it. Wellspring is just one of those things you can't truly check defensively, save for a few Pokemon like Mega Venusaur. You'll have to be a little more aggressive than normal to stop it, and I don't think that's necessarily bad. The abundance of Toxic makes it just a little harder to bring in safely. I wouldn't be opposed to a Wellspring suspect test, but if I was forced to vote for this theoretical test, I would probably lean towards DNB, I'm open to having my opinion swayed though.

Oh yeah, and RETEST THIS GUY ​

 

[CappyThePulpy]

Here’s my survey and general meta thoughts:

4

I think this is the main issue mon in the current meta. If a team can be broken by waterpon it will be broken by waterpon. Most teams are one ivy cudgel crit away from losing to this thing. Its actual counters are very cringe; if you are using tangrowth as your main physical wall, you have a lot to worry about. Zapdos, ferro, corvi, there is a waterpon set which beats them (mostly sd and click them down). Its offensive checks like torn, kartana, rbolt can switch into a couple ivy cudgels but there is always room for something to go wrong. The most reliable way to deal with waterpon is to run very offensive builds and never allow it to come in and click. Waterpon was severely opressed by the dragapult offense and balance in the meta pre-ban, and by all the ho trying to out offense dragapult.

2

Feels like gholdengo is not opressive at all without tera and there are numerous ways to remove hazards against it. However, I think it is one of the best mons around in a lando manner. At least 60% of teams out there could benefit from slotting a gholdengo, you don’t even need to run a spike stack. It brings so many immunities to the table, has amazing set variety, and even the threat of blocking defog is very useful. For example, a moltres may attack predicting your gholdengo only for you to switch into your ttar and protect your rocks. Hazard removers are under increased pressure even if gholdengo never hits the field. Even protecting only rocks is great. As far as I have looked at tournament usage stats, gholdengo is a top mon but its combo with hsam (the most natura hstack core) kind of sucks.

3

This is just a builder issue. You run a proper counter (like ) you will be fine. You run something like scarf , you will be ohkod by heavy slam from behind a sub. You run ? Nothing a crunch def drop cant take care of. Moltres and zapdos are good into zama by hoping you get a flame body/static proc. Overall you pretty much need a guaranteed counter to it unless you want to be reverse swept late game. A well built zama team can weaken checks, even keeping stuff like moltres into body press ko range. Also its crazy just how much setup fodder it finds, gliscor and mola being the most relevant ones.

2

On paper this is a crazy mon. Good speed, attack, nice bulk, proto, etc. Idk if the mon is bad or the players are bad but I just haven’t seen this do much.

1 (more like 0)

If you think this is an issue just get good. If your play is “this is scarf locked lets go gambit and trap it” and you get focus blasted, its 100% a skill issue. Play safe against it and even the crazier lele sets wont get much done, and the mon is easy to deal with once it has been scouted.

 

[Vlarcheops]

Ladies and Gentleman,
After careful considration and long hours of thinking, I’ve the brilliant idea for a suspect. Who’ll the fortunate Pókemon? That’s none other than Zacian Crowned:

Why would Zacian be suspect tested?
▶ That is a GREAT question to start off this SERIOUS coversation about this very topic! For answering this question I sat in my room for a LOOOOONG time. As a solution I came up with BRILLIANT arguments that WILL covince you that Zacian-Crowned is balanced! So without further ado, hear me out....

It can’t hold an item other than Rusted Sword!
▶ Due to the fact that Zacian hast to have Rusted Sword in order to become Zacian Crowned, it can’t have another item. This fact leads to Zacian being vulnerable to hazard (Spikes, Sticky Web and Stealth Rock) and by longevilty as well (Alomomola who?) not having Leftovers or berries covering its weaknesses (Shuca Berry).

Landorus-Therian Exists!
▶ Not only does Landorus-T have intimidate, weakening Zacian Crowned, but also has super-effective STAB Earthquake or Earth Power, being able to kill it effectively! Plus it has the bulk, especially on the physically defesive side with positive nature, EV max and Intimidate, to resist one of its attack and hit it back with the mentioned STAB attacks, very possibly killing (fainting) it.

Common Abilities and Items being HUGE dangers to Zacian!
▶ Almost every (useful or common) move of Zacian’s movepool is both physical AND makes contact with the opponent, meaning it takes damage from Rocky Helmet and abilities like Iron Barbs and Rough Body. It also has a Change to burn itself if it dares to hit Moltres or being paralyzed trying to damage Zapdos, halving its speed or physical capabilities respectively.

It’s walled by great Pókemon!
▶ Having struggles to counter Zacian? No problem! Introducing Dondozo, having Unavare, having massive HP and physical defense, countering Zacian-C without any problem! Toxapex (and Alomomola) can burn it with Scald, using Haze, eliminating stat changes and if Zacian does not have Wild Charge, well the job is even easier. Melmetal COULD take a Cloe Combat and hit it back with Earthquake or STAB Double Iron Bash. Corviknight and Skarmory could also wear it down with their physical bulk, Iron Defese, Roost and killing it with Body Press.

Tera is banned, Therefore lacking coverage!
▶ Unlike ND Ubers, Terastalization is banned, meaning that the movepool coverage of Zacian-C falls quite flat. It can’t kill Moltres unless it does have Wild Charge, it can’t hit Hjlodenho of it lacks Crunch and STAN Play Rough and Behemoth Blade for Lando-t and Gliscor doesn’t cut it. No Close Combat, no hitting Ferrothorn and Melmetal

So there you have it! My ideas on why Zacian-Crowned should suspect and STAY in NDOU! What do you think? Do you agree/disagree? Let me know!

Thanks for reading take care!

“P.S”

…….look at the date of this post…..

 

[Epicgamergod69]

I know this is a hot take but we really should ban clodsire it's very oppressive and restricts building in an unhealthy way completely broken Mon needs QB get on it council

 

[Chilli Dewd]

I finally did my sun guide guys: to not bombard the metagame discussions with it, i decided to leave a link to it on the perfect mon to represent the guide:

 

[Epicgamergod69]

I finally did my sun guide guys: to not bombard the metagame discussions with it, i decided to leave a link to it on the perfect mon to represent the guide:

I hate you (I knew what it was before I clicked but I did it anyway)

 

[Chilli Dewd]

View attachment 728080I hate you (I knew what it was before I clicked but I did it anyway)

Like a moth to a flame....

 

[blacksilver2]

I finally did my sun guide guys: to not bombard the metagame discussions with it, i decided to leave a link to it on the perfect mon to represent the guide:

you rick rolled me

 

[slopcat]

with wc approaching I figured now is probably the best time to make some tentative predictions on the trends I'd expect to see as we get to the games. this is obviously mostly speculative, but I think there's enough backing to avoid making this into pure fanfiction

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/ : holy shit these guys are gonna get spammed LMFAO moon is going to put most unprepared or lazily built defensive teams that lack a fini or clef into a sleeper hold and obliterate them. To say people are gonna realize how bonkers this thing is is an understatement. Moon is absolutely repugnant in how it just decides to instawin the game and with its absolutely elite speedtier (notably outspeeding the 350 breakers like mdia the latis and waterpon (as well as ival but that couldnt break a wet diaper) and with the dd acro has the ability to nuke all of them or just z past its various checks like the birds/zama/ferro. Ogerpon is less varied in its degeneracy but it brings up the bloodmoon dilemna of you know it's going to click the 140bp nuke but there's kind of no way to stop it even with being warned ahead. The common sd/stabs/superpower set is probably the best, but dropping power for taunt makes the stall matchup even more unloseable. pair waterpon with some spikes and it gets to enter a feeding frenzy on anything slower. Although it is more weak to hazards due to the nature of being unable to run a boots set and the inherent want to come in and out more often than moon (which notably can pack roost to alleviate this issue), waterpon is probably the most frustrating clicker to play against. the counterplay to +2 waterpon is generally try to 50/50 your way into a faster threat or to try and stall it out with a lucky toxic from mola, but one wrong guess leads to a guaranteed kill. i'd be shocked if moon wasn't top 5 in usage, with waterpon somewhere close behind.

: while i personally believe that gambit is still very strong, I could see this thing seeing very little play. very good progress maker and obviously cracked lategame cleaner, i've noticed many teams seeming very gambit weak once a check is softened with various aggregate chip that they usually incur from fullfilling their roles as usual (hazards status helmet/barbs etc) which means that it's fairly easy to constrain the lazier builds with a catch-22 of cuckolding their mons intended role within the team OR instantly losing to gambit. in fact, I think that's probably gambit's strongest attribute; the ability to radically change the flow of the average team to centralize around it. with so many strong offensive presences in the tier, having gambit to capitalize on the checks that are forced to come in makes for a very difficult to navigate and extremely high-pressure game for your opponent. However, obviously, if one can manage to keep a fighting type healthy enough to live a sucker, you're gonna be fine versus gambit.

: this mon is going to be CRIMINALLY underplayed. if it does see play it will probably be scarf because 317 speed calm mind is more difficult to pilot, but is MUCH better. it is insane to me how underplayed it is already, but with the expected prevalence of moon and waterpon i think people will be extremely scared of getting out-offensed or getting slammed by hazards. i'd expect to see a few games but i think lele instills too much builder anxiety among many to see top 10 usage, even though its strength is among that upper echelon.

: i'd expect top 5 usage full stop. best special sponge in the tier, second best hazard setter, absorbs future sight, whirls out common threats, can slot rockslide to crack the birds, i'd be amazed if we don't see a ton of the core below that's been pretty crazy:

// : probably the strongest core outside of gliscpex right now. very very powerful against both bulkier teams and more offensive ones, and pech is the most important piece between them. toxic absorber, momentum generator, tox spreader that cant get taunted, physically fat as shit, outspeeds tusk, i could go on but pech at this point is being explored much more heavily. as we have learned with pult. fast ghost with defensive utility equals.... good??? granted pech is not as fast as it would like, but the general sentiment of status spreading speedcreep ghost that this time gets to be insanely fucking fat is really really powerful.

now for my more hopeful predicts with even less backing in a more rapid fire way

has been so disrespected in the builder as of late its a bit vile, insane progress forcing steel with really reliably clickable stab especially with punching glove, beats gliscpex, btfo mola, devours balance, av slams lele, lefties toxtect is nyehhh but still fine overall super super underrated because the ferro dengo mindvirus has infected 80% of the playerbase

similarly disrespected but a little harder to fit. has access to rocks which is awesome and taunt mauls stall really well. progress forcing steel with reliably clickable stab that chunks glisc, eats balances, beats lele, lefties toxtect is playable and is super- wait a minute

all jokes aside tran is very much different in the teams and situations where it can see use but z sets are pretty decent and it checks a lot of really strong stuff like dengo and ferro so it's likely to see at least a little usage and its really cool i like the frog


spdefchomp haunts my fucking nightmares every time i play a friendly vs xurk and i load volcarona its him. its fucking special defense garchomp. garchomp with leftovers and toxic and is specially defensive. specially defensive chomp. chomper utilizing special defense. i see it when i close my eyes. the breath leaves my body when i see +1 bug buzz do like 50. god help me. he cant. he is a special attacker and just got toxic'd. we're doomed

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[Cyber-DJ]

What are some notable things I should be aware of come NatDex higher ladder? Been noticing talk of cores like Gliscor+Toxapex, Pecharunt picking up in usage, Ogerpon-Wellspring being the cutest maniac you'll face on ladder. Y'know, the usual things. But what about stuff. Oh, and also that the sample teams thread has four Mega-Latios teams. Is it really this good or just a huge coincidence?

Also I saw a Howl+Z Crystal Zama once. Does that have anything going for it aside from a cool thing to show on a YT thumbnail?

 

[Faux Focalors Furina]

Also I saw a Howl+Z Crystal Zama once. Does that have anything going for it aside from a cool thing to show on a YT thumbnail?

I know you crossed it out since you probably already knew, but I'd like to point out that it basically gives Zama a one time swords dance with z-howl giving another +1 in atk so yeah it does have a thing going for it :)

Oh, and also that the sample teams thread has four Mega-Latios teams. Is it really this good or just a huge coincidence?

I have to tell you that once Pult got booted out of Natdex OU. Is an absolute beast right now in this metagame. Gambit lost some usage iirc and can't really handle a aura sphere anymore. CM sets are an absolute beast but wallbreaker and pivot sets can be used to great use as well ^^

 

[Comett7778]

What are some notable things I should be aware of come NatDex higher ladder? Been noticing talk of cores like Gliscor+Toxapex, Pecharunt picking up in usage, Ogerpon-Wellspring being the cutest maniac you'll face on ladder. Y'know, the usual things. But what about stuff. Oh, and also that the sample teams thread has four Mega-Latios teams. Is it really this good or just a huge coincidence?

We’re definitely in a more bulky meta and you can definitely see this in the mons being chosen. Scor, Pex, and Pech are all very good walls and Mega Latios is a very good wallbreaker into these teams and also has good defensive utility.

Also Scor likes Pult being gone while Pech and Mega Latios are crying from joy that it was banned.

Pls I want a wellspring suspect

Also I saw a Howl+Z Crystal Zama once. Does that have anything going for it aside from a cool thing to show on a YT thumbnail?

That was probably me. I’ve been running a HO I’ve stolen off the discord and modified for a while now that has howl + electrium z zama. Main goal is to z when they bring in their Ghold/Mola/bird/pex and then hit them with electrium z to ohko. It’s definitely viable and situationally good but far from meta. Very fun and used it to get my past two suspect reqs.

 

[slopcat]

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with the games FINALLY ALMOST HERE PLEASE i thought i'd make an addendum to my previous post on a few trends i've noticed especially in recent tour play. i know the games have technically already begun but i'm just going to shove the week 1 trick room win out of my head ad infinitum

this just in.... freeze dry in gliscpex meta..... strong????? who could have forseen. in all seriousness, kyurem has fortunately (?) made its comeback to relevance just after it drops from OU, and it's positioned to do very well this tournament. the most spammable move in the game in freeze dry paired with coverage in earth power (or if you're greedy, hp fire) is oftentimes genuinely all you need to 6-0 teams that fail to prepare for kyurem. the mons that out offense it hate the 40% they're forced to take and with how often you get to click it the debilitating freeze chance is an event that can and will fuck over something that genuinely can take kyurem on, or removes opportunities for mons like spdef corv to recover off the damage. kyurem, most importantly, works on almost anything. ho loves scarf to alleviate the gliscpex matchup, fatter builds including gliscpex love to slap the boots set on with a roost, and so many otherwise blanked teammates adore the ability to shit on pex and hack ferro to bits with repeated neutral freeze dries. still has the issues it's always had, but kyurem is in position to one-man-band his way through any lazy balances that aren't piloted with absolute care

in the first few games of the tournament we've seen a lot of bolt from sv to doubles, and it raises a lot of questions regarding the mon's future. seen traditionally as a yard/shifu check that gets to click big z dragoniums, it fell a little to the wayside in the advent of lele and moon's tag team on the tier. however, it turns out getting to click really big special buttons is really fucking good! although bolt runs into the problem of both of its stabs being blanked by SOME type, if those dracos hit the grounds and the bolts hit the fairies you wind up with strewn corpses of offenses that couldnt handle the rain of meteors. to be less dramatic and actually say something of substance, bolt has been on the downtrend, but I personally think it, much like its icy brother, can see more creative play than just "yard sun assistant" and should make for some fun tense games as we get deeper into the tournament.

very very strong breaker on a lot of balance structures but i'm yet to see it do much of note. I understand it's quite strong and answers a lot of things extremely well, but it belongs in that nebulous category of swiss army knives that can wear a few hats offensively but never excel in one particular direction and to speak from personal anecdote I've never found that style to be something I can pilot. This is definitely a skill issue and latios is fundamentally strong so I'd be on the lookout for it in prep but it feels so relatively easy to deal with that I have a hard time writing much more than I have here. Great shifu check and does well vs gliscpex at least, but can tend to struggle against the delinquent offensive threats of the tier. the fact that you get popped by mdia and waterpon (even though you resist its whole moveset) is just a little sad especially when you're speedtying as the cherry on top.

don't use corviknight


obviously insanely strong at the moment. fat ghold shits on a lot, and sitting in front of +2 ghostium is a harrowing prospect as always. probably ironically the most skill-based mon in the tier, and it's generally fairly telling of how the game will go when one observes how much mileage any certain player managed to get out of their gholdengo, especially versus fatter teams. it has its counters on every build, which I personally feel makes ghold's consistency in its ability very appreciated to really get some good games that arent totally matchupfucked from the start. also it being the one real ghost in the tier makes it super unique in what it can actually get done, and its probably one of the mons in the tier most reliant on in-game awareness and ability to think ahead. very very cool and I think it's very easy to find ways to improve by looking at the gholds and thinking in your own head what YOU think the ghold needs to do this game and see how that compares to the outcome. very fun stuff. wait what the fuck is the dauntless shiel-


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supersoldier ass dog dropping either absolute ufc takedowns on entire teams or getting hard walled by pech and crying itself to sleep. I've seen like 4 tour games in the last few days where the fullhp zama is just lurked up in the back ready to dispense immense bodily harm upon anything that cant sponge its coverage. zamazenta is both the wolves and the hunter. hes coming. you better have something fat above 60%. mega latios? popped from 65. try again. i think a lot of the z sets are reallyyyyy just not very good but boots cc coverage just gets to work so many offenses and chokeslam anything besides poison types and the fat cheese man

switches out the volatility of zama for more consistent breakage with a similar speedtier with the cons of being super weak to hazards and very frail, along with having to be very very scared of moltres, zap, and too much helmet chip from lando which zama can muscle past with its various coverage.

kleavor if it was playable by which i mean kinda fuckin bonkers. untauntable 100 bp dark move that sets spikes with coverage to hit lando/ferro/ttar???? goodness me. AND its fat enough for either av or scarf??? band can kinda do a putrid amount of damage????? im getting cheesed with sucker?????? this bastard is spamming more fucking dark moves than oras hoopa

jokes aside super insanely mondo strong mon right now. biggest competition being lu kinda sucks, but I think with more games coming up shit should shake out fine for hamurott. counterleading diencie and being able to make twofold progress vs glowking is also super super sweet

the blob is really really strong atm. fini is more splashable and I'll make another post if it sees some cool games but clefella gets to do its blob things super super well. twave is really spammable atm, with answers to clef like pech and with all the rock setters in the tier LOVING literally any other move, having a consistent crippling rock setter that functions insanely well as a defensive piece over the course of a game is super super invaluable. the traditional clef switchins despiseeee getting knocked or twaved, so the consistency will really get you a lot of mileage versus literally everything but ghold. also she hitting ts

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That's all for todays yapsesh folks. Enjoy the games, enjoy the weekend, enjoy my mediocre analysis, and enjoy yourselves most of all. Very fun season for mons and as someone newer to the scene it's been fun seeing and being part of the prep phase for the various team tours

anyway i got an essay to write deuces :v:

 

[Comett7778]

this just in.... freeze dry in gliscpex meta..... strong????? who could have forseen. in all seriousness, kyurem has fortunately (?) made its comeback to relevance just after it drops from OU,

Idk why this thing ever dropped off. It’s Kyurem. Just presses buttons and suddenly lots of progress is made. Also pp stalling.

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Honestly this thing should maybe be suspected. It does insane damage with band and can two shot most most checks with crunch. And if it’s not banded it can more easily use its insane coverage. Not 100% for a suspect but would be open to it.

 

[Moyashi]

Idk why this thing ever dropped off. It’s Kyurem. Just presses buttons and suddenly lots of progress is made. Also pp stalling.


Honestly this thing should maybe be suspected. It does insane damage with band and can two shot most most checks with crunch. And if it’s not banded it can more easily use its insane coverage. Not 100% for a suspect but would be open to it.

Kyurem dropped off for a while because it was no longer nearly as easy to auto win with it, and the checks to it become easier to use while the meta game shifted in a direction (at the time anyway) that favored mons that Kyurem didn’t match too well into. Nowadays with the power and dominance of Gliscor teams, having a Pokémon that can heavily pressure those teams while also being still threatening to general Balance structures is more appealing and the lowering of general speed tiers has helped it out. Dragapult’s exit is deceptively good for it in fact as now teams can’t just load a Mon that can suddenly pick it off even when it’s behind a sub.

DD sets are still too fishy for my liking, struggling with stuff like Bulky Gholdengo, Heatran, Kingambit and Melmetal (this one is particularly big because Melm can punch through subs and slam big damage into Kyurem afterwards). Though I’ve see some cheeky SubTect DD variants floating around ladder ever since they made a couple SPL appearances in SV OU and they can win some match ups off PP stalling tactics, though again still fishy overall.

All this said I think Kyurem is making a comeback and I’ve noticed there’s a lot of teams rather weak to it, and I’ve even felt the need to really consider it more in the builder lately. Also on a personal note, fuck freeze.

Random thoughts of my own on some mons


This Mon recently dropped slightly on the VR and personally I don’t see why. Pult leaving was a pretty neutral change given that Lu wasn’t fond of Wisp Pult crippling its longevity and DD Pult could still take a sizable bite out of its health just to be phased out (assuming DD wasn’t running Wisp). But really Ting-Lu is a very comfy overall pick and it just is too nice to have a Mon that can blanket check nearly any special attacker in an emergency, which eases a ton of pressure off of teammates. It’s arguably the best counterlead Balance has into Mega Diance since it threatens an OHKO into it, not even fearing a 2HKO from full health. Of course depending on your needs you can tech it to check ZardY with rock slide, which extends to Volcarona as well. It outlasts Terapagos easily, keeps Specs Koko from mindlessly spamming moves, hard stuffs Raging Bolt, can handle some Lele sets in a pinch, and can even phase out sub Kyurem if you need it to. And it can soft check set up sweepers like Dragonite with phasing, all while forcing progress easily through Spikes and Ruination. Gliscor might sit at the top as a spiking ground but don’t discount Lu.


This one is a somewhat hot take maybe, but does anyone else think Pursuit is kinda eh? Both of these mons are good, Gambit being great even, but lately I’ve felt the value of Pursuit isn’t super high. Mons like Lele and Gholdengo have largely progressed to not be threatened by it (with non choice sets, especially with Z crystals) while other mons like Zapdos and Tornadus-T can chip them on the way out with pivot moves, and usually just heal up later. Mega Latios can tech for Pursuit with Reflext (which also lets it beat other dominate dark types) while Glowking can just pivot out as they come in. In summary, I just don’t see the move having as much value on a game to game basis and they could use that slot for other moves instead (for example I’ve found 4A Kingambit with Knock/Iron/Sucker/LowKick to be effective as a progress major if you still want to run AV, and similarly attacking variants of MTtar feel better off just using Knock Off and other attacks to make progress since even resists take chunks).


On a related note, with Kyurem rising in usage and viability I think Glowking has more merit in the meta as well. It still naturally covers a lot of special attackers and is an active pivot that generates nice momentum through its combo of FS and Chilly Reception, but you can do a lot with its toolkit honestly. Trick+Black Sludge is an old classic from SwSh that I think is underrated as a disruption tool vs the steel heavy meta game, Psychic Noise is great as well and can catch some grounds (Gliscor) coming in. Notably it also locks out Mola from freely passing around wishes. And AV is nice if you want to stay in and brawl with Gholdengo using flamethrower for a bit. I definitely recommend giving this Mon more attention.


Try punching glove it’s funny

Anyways I’m gonna go relax. Hope you all are having a nice weekend!

 

[Genjaja]

thoughts on volc?

I personally think its deserving to be suspected

 

[slopcat]

thoughts on volc?

I personally think its deserving to be suspected

moth's stupid as fuck with z but i think its pretty workable to deal with when we have stuff like av mola pex molt dnite clod (this mon is astrofake otherwise) and chomp (for non-z)

i think subswarm buginium has some stupid fucking calcs but i think people will compensate the rise of volc with incorporating even more pex/dnite/mola and maybe we'll even see some shit like garg or roar terap (shoutout uubers)

 

[Comett7778]

thoughts on volc?

I personally think its deserving to be suspected

It’s definitely good, but far from suspect worthy in my eyes. Its set variety is huge tho. Fiery Dance and QD are the only necessary things on it. After that you could run roost, bug buzz, giga drain, or hp ground. Usually Volc is boots cause rocks but z bug and fire gives it a nuke of a move. Definitely not broken tho. It’s really susceptible to status, and priority. Also pex is the hardest wall known to man, even with hp ground, thanks to haze + toxic.
Pls suspect wellspring

 

[Toxic Ariados]

Volcarona does not need a suspect in my eyes. It's a very powerful Pokemon but with enough flaws to weigh it down.

On that note: in my opinion, Z Volcarona is a tad bit overblown. I'm still convinced that Boots is its best item. People really underestimate how terrible losing an instant 50% (or more) of your health is on the switch. Unlike Charizard Y, Volcarona lacks the immediate firepower to punish an enemy who went for Stealth Rocks on your switch. Not to mention that non-Boots Volcarona is somewhat readable off of team preview. If they have a Magic Bouncer and some extra removal like a Rapid Spinner or Defogger, then it's reasonable to assume that it might not be holding Boots. Though even with a Magic Bouncer (along with backup removal for the extra cautious), it's unrealistic to think that you can keep hazards off for the entirety of the match, especially in a world with Gholdengo, making the choice to not run Boots a significant trade-off. Sub Swarm is also forced to drain its HP to get that truly devastating damage, leaving it open to priority (assuming its Substitute is broken). Stuff like Sp.Def Moltres can take hits to a reasonable degree due to your lack of coverage. All while mashing Hurricane or the safer Flamethrower/Mystic Fire if you don't have enough Sp.Def boosts for your Substitute to stay intact. Not running a 3rd coverage move like HP Ground is also a significant blow to your strength, since stuff like Heatran and Soundproof Kommo-o (I'm not sure if anyone actually uses the latter?) can menace you. Volcarona is a matchup fish, but a good one. The right set can absolutely steamroll the team it wants to beat, but can thud into others. It's definitely versatile, but not overwhelming. I don't think you should realistically get 6-0d by Volcarona unless you give it one too many setup opportunities.

 

[Darlington]

Usually don't comment in this forum but Ogerpon-WellSpring, KingGambit and Roaring Moon I feel like needs a suspect test or just needs to go. I thought Gambit was going to be fine without Tera but boy was I wrong. Doesn't matter if you have a fighting type if Gambit can 2ko you with Sucker Punch Supreme Overlord. I saw a Zama took 48 from KingGambit sucker Punch, get that mon out or tested at least. Ogerpon-W, where do I started. You can have all the grass types to counter this but once you none, you are finished and if it sets up well good luck. Heck people might as well run Solar Blade instead of Power Whip and just add Charizard Y and Torkoal. Good luck trying to counter that. Roaring Moon lol, why this mon allowed. This is mini Mega Salamance, Set up Knock Off with Acrobatics plus Roost can be annoying. Hard to counter, you can have your Fairy's, your birds, your Fighting type but none can switch in to Roaring Moon if it sets up and mine you this mon has good special defense. And no Ferro doesn't counter it because it has Brick Break and no Zaptops and Moltres both dies to Stone Edge. Yes I know Roaring Moon doesn't run Brick Break or Stone Edge but what happened if it does runs those moves. Those are the 3 mons I feel like needs a suspect test or at least just but that's just me. I could be wrong and they are balance, idk.

 

[Comett7778]

I thought Gambit was going to be fine without Tera but boy was I wrong. Doesn't matter if you have a fighting type if Gambit can 2ko you with Sucker Punch Supreme Overlord. I saw a Zama took 48 from KingGambit sucker Punch, get that mon out or tested at least.

Yeah no. Gambit has at least one check on every team. Even spdef gliscor can check it in a pinch. Almost any ground or fight type(which you should have one go on every team) can easily deal with gambit.

Ogerpon-W, where do I started. You can have all the grass types to counter this but once you none, you are finished and if it sets up well good luck.

Yeah this I agree with. The mask giving a boost to all moves is stupid. Also why does this thing get so much coverage? Play Rough, Superpower, Knock Off, and U Turn. And then it gets SD. And then you have water absorb for healing if you’re savvy. And rap this all up with the nice little bow that’s 350 max speed

Roaring Moon lol, why this mon allowed. This is mini Mega Salamance

This mon, while definitely good, is not broken. Most physically defensive mons can easily handle it. He’ll even bulky Z Ghold can take a booster energy and t wave or hit moon with focus blast. Not to mention how well ferro, pex, tusk, and lando t can take it.

 

[Moyashi]

On Volcarona, I don’t find it broken. While SubSwarm is especially dangerous, its major vulnerability to hazards necessitates support at a level that makes the set telegraphed fairly often. This and it has issues getting Moltres, Heatran and Dragonite while never getting past Haze Pex. It does have to work kinda hard in some games to get that boost to become super dangerous, and if it can’t get the sub it’s hard to get that boost vs some teams.

we'll even see some shit like garg or roar terap (shoutout uubers)

Also this. Roar Terap is legit a neat tech that gives a nice one time emergency “no” button vs any set up threat in the tier to take pressure off.

As for Garg I know most aren’t fond of it right now, but it’s got some good match ups by itself that are understated. Punishes Pex quite well and also dominates Terapagos, making it a Rocker that actually maintains them vs most removal. And it’s a really strong Volcarona answer while also assisting vs the rising Pecharunt usage. Also good at abusing Tspikes. In fact speaking of Garg,


Garganacl @ Leftovers
Level: 100
Careful Nature
Ability: Purifying Salt
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 204 SpD
- Salt Cure
- Ice Punch
- Recover
- Protect

This is one set I’ve been toying around with lately and it’s surprisingly not bad. Beats non Protect Gliscor (which ladder at least loves to death) and keeps it from trying to spike freely on it. Ice Punch is great for rubbing extra chip into things afflicted by Salt Cure, and against bulkier teams trying to outlast Salt Cure with mons like Glowking you can straight fish for Freeze which will break those games open if it lands.

Replay where Garg abuses TSpikes to amplify pressure from Salt Cure and help wear down dangerous threats even with Mola behind them.

Rain game that minus a misplay with Venu, Garg put tons of pressure from lead and made a lot of progress.

Game where Garg sat for 30+ turns and even ended up taking out Roost Gliscor (crit helped) while also freezing Mola which prevented wish passing.

These are older games (month and a half?) but I maintain this Mon is better than it seems even without Tera and simply has to play around its weaknesses.

Tacking this on at the end because the comment came later but, I don’t think Kingambit nor Moon are remotely broken or even close to it. They are very good but cannot simply bowl over teams nearly as easily (or in the case of Gambit, BS endgames with Tera). They require actual thought and skill to pilot. You’ve got to respect them, but they’re not broken.

Wellspring broke though

 

[boppydop!]

ban glisco r

 

[SHOSPLE COLUPIS]

You guys should really consider unbanning Zamazenta-C

Ghold in the tier kinda screws it up badly (Especially now that bulky ghold has proven to be best ghold, and bulky doesn't get 2 shot with crunch)
No tera means it can't just tera out of its weaknesses
It can't wear boots
Slower speed and Steel Type means it actually loses as an IDBP mon vs it's Hero variant (This doesn't matter)

It also has literally the worst 4mss known to man.
Has to run Stone Edge to beat Moltres or Yard
Has to run Crunch to beat Gholdengo
Has to run Heavy Slam to beat Lele and Hatt
Has to run Substitute to beat anything that runs Will-O-Wisp or Thunder Wave

It's stuck in a corner where no set it can have lets it have a chance at beating even half the teams out there.

On top of all this, Set Variety
It has literally none. Unlike its Hero form it is entirely confined to being an IDBP bot with zero other ways to use it.

So in other terms:
You always know what it's going to do
You can kill it with any special attacker that hits it SE
It can't recover any HP ever or wear boots.
You can kill it easily using any Gholdengo with Nasty Plot

Literally its only benefit compared to basic IDBP Zama is immunity to Toxic, which was already solved by Substitute.
(and the general steel type defensive profile I guess but being weak to Ground, Fire, and especially fighting (Every special attacker ever runs Focus Blast) bites it, badly.)


Dog is most likely fine, at least a sus unban is warranted for Dog.