Got any stats to back that up?
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Ubers National Dex Ubers Stage 2 - Dragons (Koraidon suspect test)
- Thread starter Eledyr
- Start date
- Status
Got any stats to back that up?
good sir, if kora is so good against stall why is there so much stall in ladder?
-kora doesn't counter pdon, sure it can set up on it while living blades and then ko but it can't switch in
-koraidon doesn't have any relevant counters. xerneas outright dies to +2 flare blitz, and unec does to dragon STAB (scale shot, which also lets it deal with former checks like hooh). only "koraidon counters" that exist are shit like tapu fini and dachsbun lol
Now that I confirmed my vote, I can give my 0,02$ about Koraidon, and its impact as a mon in the meta. Please do note that I don't talk as a tier leader, nor even as a council member, simply as a player. What I'm saying is it is not necessarily what other council members can think about it.
I'm pretty safe to say that Koraidon was one of the most controversial Pokemon in the meta, as with the two other horsemen of the apocalypse in Xerneas and Zygarde. All these three lads have been extremely metagame constricting, to the point where many teams were quite much forced to run some defensive backbones like Ho-Oh, defensive Arceus formes, and... Zygarde. Not only this, but even with these defensive backbones all around, many defensive Pokemon already had to run Tera Fairy simply in order to not lose to Koraidon. Despite this, before DLC dropping off, the priority was towards Terastallization, more than anything else.
But! Koraidon only received one relevant move, is it possible that such a small buff can change it from a problematic Pokemon to a banworthy one?
Yes. I'm gonna develop that a bit.
It may look like an innocent buff. But it's definitely not. Scale Shot is, as said in the original post, a ready-made solution for Swords Dance variants. Prior the DLC, SD Koraidon was always caught in between two options : Flame Charge for the useful Speed boost, Outrage/Flare Blitz for more immediate power, as well as some more niche options like Taunt, Tera Blast + Tera Rock, or Shadow Claw. The set was undeniably good at that point, but not as splashable as the other star set Koraidon was using, being a Choiced set. Choice Scarf Koraidon was undeniably the best set Koraidon could run, packing immediate pressure thanks to Orichalcum Pulse, its good base Attack stat and its good options like Dragon Claw, U-turn, Flare Blitz, etc.
Scale Shot kinda fixed everything in what SD Koraidon was struggling in, giving it a reliable move that can OHKO staples like Ho-Oh, as well as achieving ridiculous things such as OHKOing Lunala at +2. On top of that, Koraidon had no problem dropping its Leftovers for a much better use of Loaded Dice, which cements the ridiculous power level Koraidon reaches now. Given how unpredictable, powerful, and unhealthy Koraidon is, as a result of this buff, I strongly believe it should be banned, and recommand everyone who passed the voting identification to do so. I think this will lead to a much more enjoyable metagame, in which Pokemon such as Necrozma-DM, Lunala, and defensive forms of Arceus such as Arceus-Water and Arceus-Dark will have more room to develop their strengths, offering more chances against behemoths such as Xerneas and Zygarde-C, thus leading to an healthier metagame.
I'm pretty safe to say that Koraidon was one of the most controversial Pokemon in the meta, as with the two other horsemen of the apocalypse in Xerneas and Zygarde. All these three lads have been extremely metagame constricting, to the point where many teams were quite much forced to run some defensive backbones like Ho-Oh, defensive Arceus formes, and... Zygarde. Not only this, but even with these defensive backbones all around, many defensive Pokemon already had to run Tera Fairy simply in order to not lose to Koraidon. Despite this, before DLC dropping off, the priority was towards Terastallization, more than anything else.
But! Koraidon only received one relevant move, is it possible that such a small buff can change it from a problematic Pokemon to a banworthy one?
Yes. I'm gonna develop that a bit.
It may look like an innocent buff. But it's definitely not. Scale Shot is, as said in the original post, a ready-made solution for Swords Dance variants. Prior the DLC, SD Koraidon was always caught in between two options : Flame Charge for the useful Speed boost, Outrage/Flare Blitz for more immediate power, as well as some more niche options like Taunt, Tera Blast + Tera Rock, or Shadow Claw. The set was undeniably good at that point, but not as splashable as the other star set Koraidon was using, being a Choiced set. Choice Scarf Koraidon was undeniably the best set Koraidon could run, packing immediate pressure thanks to Orichalcum Pulse, its good base Attack stat and its good options like Dragon Claw, U-turn, Flare Blitz, etc.
Scale Shot kinda fixed everything in what SD Koraidon was struggling in, giving it a reliable move that can OHKO staples like Ho-Oh, as well as achieving ridiculous things such as OHKOing Lunala at +2. On top of that, Koraidon had no problem dropping its Leftovers for a much better use of Loaded Dice, which cements the ridiculous power level Koraidon reaches now. Given how unpredictable, powerful, and unhealthy Koraidon is, as a result of this buff, I strongly believe it should be banned, and recommand everyone who passed the voting identification to do so. I think this will lead to a much more enjoyable metagame, in which Pokemon such as Necrozma-DM, Lunala, and defensive forms of Arceus such as Arceus-Water and Arceus-Dark will have more room to develop their strengths, offering more chances against behemoths such as Xerneas and Zygarde-C, thus leading to an healthier metagame.
Last edited:
Koraidon doesn't struggle vs fairy types, it just tera fires and clicks flare blitz. Also, it is not the only reliable stall breaker in the tier.
With an innate speed tier that's really high even for Ubers standards, practically 190ish Atk out of its ability and decent bulk, Koraidon can easily brute force setup opportunities, quite often you can even go greedy by doing SD then Scale Shot (
even making it a net upgrade over Outrage overall) and get away with that as a good amount of mons are OHKO'd by that, including most HO leads like 
, 
and 
.I sure wish I could say more over Koraidon that hasn't been already said, but the mon is legitimately that braindead, all it needs is a single turn to start blowing holes on the other team,
isn't safe from a +2 Scale Shot, and neither are even the bulkiest physically defensive mons in the meta like 
, 
and especially 
(lol only the first hit accounting Shadow Shield/Multiscale).Sure, Terastallizing does bring counterplay to Koraidon, as its STABs happen to be resisted by the Fairy type, but its ability that's Drought on crack ensures it can just Flare Blitz the pinkies on the spot (notably allowing it to 1v1 even innate Fairies, most notably
(Fairy)), and 
itself can abuse Terastallizing to either gain "true" Fire STAB on top of the sun boost, or go for Tera Ghost to flip its match-up against priority revenge killers like 
(Normal).In other words, we have here a mon that can shred dedicated offensive and defensive team structures, all in a single set and with minimal momentum required, does this reminds of anything? Yeah, Koraidon is what happens if
and 
had a baby with a free item slot like 
with Tera compatibility on top, please yeet Fred Flinstone from the meta like we did with its cousin Barney the Dinosaur (
).
Koraidon has always been an iffy pokemon in this tier. having base speed being able to outspeed fast threats such as ultra necrozma or geomancy xerneas, combined with its raw power, it has always felt like it has been on the edge. I’ve personally wanted to ban koraidon before dlc even came out due to how restricting it was for the tier. With the right set, koraidon could, and would destroy basically any check it had. Ho-oh, the most reliable check to koraidon pre dlc was still not safe to stay in on koraidon after a swords dance due to the threat of stuff such as life orb or the more popular dragonium z. It always created very iffy predictions. Were you able to stay in with your Mega mewtwo y against the korai? Would it be scarf and outspeed? Would it swords dance when you switched out? Would it be band and be bluffing choice scarf? The multitude of sets this close to broken pokemon had was just not a pleasant experience to play around. Of course you can always make assumptions about the set. If you see it on a ho team, chances are small that it’ll be a choice banded set. But that’s still assumptions.
Koraidon had also started to heavily warp the meta around it. Xerneas started to favor quicker timid sets to outspeed a scarf koraidon, as if it didn’t, air would easily get revenge killed by it. Pokémon such as Ho-oh started to deviate from the standard tera grass to tera fairy and start running brave bird for more secure damage. Of course meta development isn’t a bad thing, but shows an active meta. But when it’s taking to these extremes, where any sweeper that gets revenge killed by koraidon is barely worth using, you should start to really question if it’s healthy for the meta.
There are both arguments pro ban and no ban. Some may think that it holds the tier together, giving much necessary speed control not letting stuff such as dragon dance ultra necrozma snowball out of control. Others may say that a pokemon whom is now basically unwallabke and can not only have a better stab than dragon claw, boost it speed at the same time, but also free up a slot where it previously had flame charge to allow it to now run flare blitz. Swords dance flame charge sets were previously decently handled by ho-oh or xerneas that could respectively either deny any attempts to boost it speed, or take a hit and retaliate back with moonblast. This is no longer the case, and it has rather turned opposite. Ho-oh now rather invites koraidon to boost it speed whilst simultaneously knocking out ho-oh, and xerneas now can’t take a hit, nor retaliate back unlike before.
Pre dlc, koraidon always felt iffy and barely manageable. Teams could run 2-3 checks to it and still lose. You had to either invest a lot of resources to check it, or simply try to win before it could cause damage. Koraidon also had excellent bulk unlike other offensive sweepers. With a surprisingly high physical defense, koraidon could easily set up in the face of many foes, and if lucky, it can even survive an opposing unboosted koraidons dragon claw from full health.
One of the biggest problem I have with koraidon in the current meta is that it no longer needs to run niche sets to beat its counters. It always had the option to run swords dance dragonium z to beat ho-oh. But it always came at a cost. You did knock out ho-oh, now giving more room for your xerneas, but you now also have a koraidon without a boosting item, nor a choice scarf. It can no longer run through your opponents primal kyogre, nor can you revenge kill the dragon dance ultra necrozma. There was always something to pay. But now, it can run the standard swords dance set and muscle through ho-oh, outspeed the zacian, and one hit ko the xerneas all with the same set.
By far what really pushes it over the edge, is koraidons ability to terastalize. Of course it wasn’t able to terastalize pre dlc if it chose to use the dragonium z set over another set such as choice scarf or swords dance leftovers. But with the standard sets in the current meta, koraidon may terastalize whenever it wants. This not only means that koraidon may choose to power up its already strong fire type moves, enabling it to revenge kill a modest xerneas, it can also defensively terastalize its a type such as fairy, thus allowing its swords dance sets to live opposing attacks such as a brave bird from ho-oh or an opposing koraidons dragon claw without needing to risk a roll or be able to live it after being chipped previously.
In conclusion, scale shot has given koraidon, an already borderline pokemon more compression, and can now allow it to further beat its checks, being able to further enabling that with its ability to terastalize.
Koraidon had also started to heavily warp the meta around it. Xerneas started to favor quicker timid sets to outspeed a scarf koraidon, as if it didn’t, air would easily get revenge killed by it. Pokémon such as Ho-oh started to deviate from the standard tera grass to tera fairy and start running brave bird for more secure damage. Of course meta development isn’t a bad thing, but shows an active meta. But when it’s taking to these extremes, where any sweeper that gets revenge killed by koraidon is barely worth using, you should start to really question if it’s healthy for the meta.
There are both arguments pro ban and no ban. Some may think that it holds the tier together, giving much necessary speed control not letting stuff such as dragon dance ultra necrozma snowball out of control. Others may say that a pokemon whom is now basically unwallabke and can not only have a better stab than dragon claw, boost it speed at the same time, but also free up a slot where it previously had flame charge to allow it to now run flare blitz. Swords dance flame charge sets were previously decently handled by ho-oh or xerneas that could respectively either deny any attempts to boost it speed, or take a hit and retaliate back with moonblast. This is no longer the case, and it has rather turned opposite. Ho-oh now rather invites koraidon to boost it speed whilst simultaneously knocking out ho-oh, and xerneas now can’t take a hit, nor retaliate back unlike before.
Pre dlc, koraidon always felt iffy and barely manageable. Teams could run 2-3 checks to it and still lose. You had to either invest a lot of resources to check it, or simply try to win before it could cause damage. Koraidon also had excellent bulk unlike other offensive sweepers. With a surprisingly high physical defense, koraidon could easily set up in the face of many foes, and if lucky, it can even survive an opposing unboosted koraidons dragon claw from full health.
One of the biggest problem I have with koraidon in the current meta is that it no longer needs to run niche sets to beat its counters. It always had the option to run swords dance dragonium z to beat ho-oh. But it always came at a cost. You did knock out ho-oh, now giving more room for your xerneas, but you now also have a koraidon without a boosting item, nor a choice scarf. It can no longer run through your opponents primal kyogre, nor can you revenge kill the dragon dance ultra necrozma. There was always something to pay. But now, it can run the standard swords dance set and muscle through ho-oh, outspeed the zacian, and one hit ko the xerneas all with the same set.
By far what really pushes it over the edge, is koraidons ability to terastalize. Of course it wasn’t able to terastalize pre dlc if it chose to use the dragonium z set over another set such as choice scarf or swords dance leftovers. But with the standard sets in the current meta, koraidon may terastalize whenever it wants. This not only means that koraidon may choose to power up its already strong fire type moves, enabling it to revenge kill a modest xerneas, it can also defensively terastalize its a type such as fairy, thus allowing its swords dance sets to live opposing attacks such as a brave bird from ho-oh or an opposing koraidons dragon claw without needing to risk a roll or be able to live it after being chipped previously.
In conclusion, scale shot has given koraidon, an already borderline pokemon more compression, and can now allow it to further beat its checks, being able to further enabling that with its ability to terastalize.
This more or less is what I've been thinking about for the length of the suspect. I don't really get how getting scale shot would really shift anyones opinion on whether
. As Eledyr mentioned, it was part of the big three of 
that were likely if not guarenteed to receive suspects at some point following our failure to ban tera. was already an incredibly spotty check given that it doesn't require much chip to get it into +2 range in the first place. This was not particularly difficult to do in game given what is tasked with handling defensively. The user was forced to play incredibly cautiously to avoid getting into +2 range which heavily limited the ability to lean on 's defensive quailities that make it so good. This, of course, goes out the window if one used 
to one shot it which comes at very little opportunity cost due to the flexibility of its item slot. 
or 
are great items would happily use, but freed up the tera slot to the benefit of its teamates which could now more easily drop coverage for . in particular comes to mind as barring an exceptional amount of luck it was never going to break through all of 
with just four moves.
and some , but most likely won't break through . allows it to very easily drop or There are, of course, other mons that benefit from
nuking from existance, but it isn't like was reliant on to get rid of anyways, it was just the easiest. has a 37.5% to OHKO and if running is either risking a coin flip to 
or Brave birding and either koing or forcing a . It all ends with either dying or being so crippled that it is likely to be little more than sac fodder.All of the above is a long winded way of saying that even before
was an incredibly soft check at best and that if it was your main way of checking you were probably going to have a bad time and that doesn't fundamentally change that dynamic. So I don't understand how is the straw that broke the 
's back on whether should be banned or not. Both pre and post dlc you either ran or 
to answer it defensively or you out offenced it and that hasn't changed. 
and 
can switch in on a predicted scale shot to prevent a speed boost, but this is incredibly risky as pixie-plate: is 2hko'd if followed with a only really works once and locking into moonblast or thunder wave comes with a lot of downsides.It is easier to revenge offensively now with priority from
thanks to the -1 from scale shot, but at the same time hitting it as it setup would accomplish the same thing as teams relying on these mons to revenge kill are likely not going to have the defensive backbones to switch around in the first place.If you thought
was banworthy a month ago you likely think the same now and vice versa.Edit: I havn't talked about
losing its ability to check due to its usage and lack of splashability though it is worth mentioning.Attachments
You see the issue is I’m running defensive tera fairy base Kyogre to counter 1 Pokémon
reasons for me to want to stay:
I hate
I hate
I hate
I hate
I FUCKING LOVE TROLLING EXTREME KILLER
Reasons to ban
My opponents deserve to have fun
I want to have fun
I want to use Scale Shot
I don’t want to run tera fairy
to stay:I hate
I hate
I hate
I hate
I FUCKING LOVE TROLLING EXTREME KILLER
Reasons to ban
My opponents deserve to have fun
I want to have fun
I want to use Scale Shot
I don’t want to run tera fairy
reasons for me to want
I hate
I hate
I hate
I hate
this is literally me fr
Reasons to ban
I want to have fun
i find scarf korai quite funny tho :(
but being for real, koraidon has to go, its wallbreaking potential is
reasons for me to want
I hate
I hate
I hate
I hate
I FUCKING LOVE TROLLING EXTREME KILLER
Reasons to ban
My opponents deserve to have fun
I want to have fun
I want to use Scale Shot
I don’t want to run tera fairy
I am incredibly confused for your rationale for reasons on both banning and unbanning
. Going through them one at a time.Reasons not to ban:
: Is absolutely trash and something that only works on paper rather than actually in game. Ladder loving sash makes the actual good sets of /
so much more dangerous than they are because you forget that is actually capable of doing damage. is so piss weak it can't even 2hko at -1 and doesn't even necessarily beat SpD which is incredibly pathetic. If you want to have zero worries about literally just a hazard up. It is incredibly easy to both get and keep hazards up long term in this tier. 
actually does what ladder thinks does. : I would assume this is about webs. If you're running HO /
both prevent webs from going up with taunt or magic coat and are happy to trade paralysis to do so. Every other playstyle can deal with webs being up for a couple of turns and find a turn at some point to remove them. If leading and clicking scale shot became common enough webs would just switch to 
which will get them up guarenteed thanks to 
It already has a spot on the VR because of this anyways. : I hate as well and think it should be the next priority for a suspect test but fail to see how it is relevant in the context of . 
really does not want to switch in to try to block scale shot and is 2hko'd by flare blitz regardless of tera. If the korai user stays in and can switch once and force a switch or a , but still isn't particularly keen on switching into unless it has to. To reiterate, I share your sentiment towards , but it is not a factor on whether should be banned or not. Was this supposed to be under reasons to ban? is the best consistant hard check outside of stall. If is not banned usage is only going to go up which is not exactly what someone who hates it is going to want to see. Regardless of if gets banned is still going to be one of the best mons in the meta and something every team is going to have a plan for both in the builder and in game. As an aside, Bulk Up, Taunt 
flips the script (shoutout Runo). Ekiller is one of the best ways to revenge unless still can't even OHKO at -1 Lord have mercy is this thing trash). Hitting with literally almost any attack is going to bring it into 
range.Reasons to ban:
My opponents deserve to have fun: Agreed it is far to opressive and quite one dimensional to lose against. This can be said about a lot of other offensive threats in NDUbers, but not to this degree.
I want to have fun: Agreed as well. I've personally never actually use
because it is the kind of mon I get bored using incredibly quickly. Getting a +2 and having the match be over gets boring after 30 minutes. Did it enough with back in the day and I'm not really keen on doing the same thing with a different coat of paint. : Assuming this is kind of a joke, but my brain refuses accept how a mon w/ 150/150 offences and raybillion options for high BP coverage can be so mid. Its defences, typing, and speed tier just hold it back so much. - Who is forcing you to run this which doesn't check in the first place. What exactly is it doing to check it other than chipping it for 40% or 
before it dies to two low kicks? Hoping it stays in so it can surprise tera blast Fairy Heatran is not even a check tbh. Koraidon doesn't even need tera to 2hko heatran
+2 252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fairy Heatran: 186-219 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fairy Heatran: 186-219 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
After getting reqs and seeing all the interesting builds used by ladder, I ought to weight my thoughts on the bicycle lizard. While Koraidon is an integral piece of many teams, it is too powerful as an offensive threat, which is why I will be voting Ban.
First of all, with Orichalcum Pulse, Koraidon is actually slightly stronger than Mega Mewtwo X, all while having the ability to hold an item.
With its base Speed of 135, without a Choice Scarf the only common Pokemon that can naturally outspeed unboosted Koraidon are Flutter Mane in Sun, Zacian-Crowned, Mega Mewtwo Y, and Deoxys-Attack. The former two need a hard read to switch in safely, and the latter two have no hope against Koraidon's attacks.
And Koraidon isn't frail either. It's hardly a wall or tank, but its 100/115/100 bulk is more than enough to take many powerful neutral hits and even some super effective ones.
This gives us a very powerful wallbreaker and sweeper that is absurdly hard to revenge kill. Its excellent stats make Koraidon a very versatile Pokemon, being both the tier's staple Choice Scarfer and a potent user of Choice Band, but what ultimately pushes it over the edge is Swords Dance.
Koraidon was already borderline before the DLC dropped, but like Weirdhamster said, Koraidon often needed to sacrifice its Tera type to blow past Ho-Oh, which was a shaky but splashable check. Additionally, Swords Dance sets generally needed to rely on Flame Charge to boost their Speed, which meant Koraidon needed to decide between a minimally useful move that was difficult to find opportunities to use, or run the risk of being revenge killed by speed control.
Scale Shot changes all of this. Koraidon can now attack with a 90% accurate move that, with Loaded Dice, has 100 BP minimum, which at the same time boosts Speed. While the Defense drop does make Koraidon more susceptible to priority, no priority user can reliably OHKO Koraidon from full.
And this isn't going over its ability to Tera. Tera Fire is obvious choice, granting it a resistance to Fairy and Ice, while powering up its Flare Blitz to unspeakable levels. However, like other in the thread have discussed, Koraidon's Tera type is open to plenty of deviation, as it's more than excellent without Terastalizing, while a single surprise Tera can end games on the spot thanks to Koraidon's sheer sweeping potential.
The result? Swords Dance Koraidon is insane, as when played even slightly competently it is almost guarantee to get a KO. It doesn't beat literally everything, but it 1v1s way too much of the tier and has too easy of a time sweeping for it to be healthy. The only reliable way to stop Swords Dance Koraidon from getting at least one KO is to either run a small group of very specific Pokemon or surprise it with Tera. For the former, the only example that is genuinely useful outside of countering Koraidon is Dondozo, which is still very specific and niche. For the latter, it is essential to note that you'd need the right Tera at the right time, sacrifice Tera, which is still a massive loss since your opponent still has their's, and be at the mercy of your opponent's prediction and Koraidon's Tera-type.
I'd also like to refute a few other arguments I've heard in defense of Koraidon. These aren't directed at any specific individual, as I've heard each of these several times.
What about Fairy-types?: Most Fairy-types get bodied by Flare Blitz, and none except Zacian-Crowned outspeed Koraidon naturally. Koraidon's most common Tera-type is Fire, which lets it beat most Fairy-types one-on-one and sometimes even use them as setup fodder.
What X Fairy-type that resists/is immune to Fire?: None of Tapu Fini, Dachsbun, and Azumarill are viable, so if you have to use a Pokemon that otherwise is completely unusable, that means this Pokemon needs to go.
If we ban Koraidon, won't Stall become too good?: Koraidon does do well against stall, but at the same time it murders every other playstyle. Pokemon like Koraidon put a stranglehold on how people build teams, making teambuilding very samey and rigid. Ironically this makes stall better, since that playstyle relies on having a hard answer to as many Pokemon as possible.
And the thing is, stall is really bad here. It's hard to counter a tier where everything hits like a truck and is absurdly bulky at the same time. One of stall's main redeeming qualities is that it does extremely well against certain Pokemon, notably Koraidon and Xerneas. For Koraidon, you can just fit a Dondozo and call it a day. No other team style can afford this, as outside of stall Dondozo is too passive. I don't think stall should get nerfed, but if anything, banning Koraidon is a major blow to it. Plus, if stall is genuinely broken, then we can easily ban stall after Koraidon. Broken being broken is never healthy.
Overall, while I love using Koraidon, it has to go in order to have a healthy metagame. I will be voting BAN, and I implore others to do the same.
First of all, with Orichalcum Pulse, Koraidon is actually slightly stronger than Mega Mewtwo X, all while having the ability to hold an item.
252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-Complete: 229-270 (39.9 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-Complete: 222-262 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Someone please correct me if I miscalced here, I'm genuinely flabbergasted.
252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-Complete: 222-262 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Someone please correct me if I miscalced here, I'm genuinely flabbergasted.
With its base Speed of 135, without a Choice Scarf the only common Pokemon that can naturally outspeed unboosted Koraidon are Flutter Mane in Sun, Zacian-Crowned, Mega Mewtwo Y, and Deoxys-Attack. The former two need a hard read to switch in safely, and the latter two have no hope against Koraidon's attacks.
And Koraidon isn't frail either. It's hardly a wall or tank, but its 100/115/100 bulk is more than enough to take many powerful neutral hits and even some super effective ones.
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 244-288 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 237-280 (69.5 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Koraidon: 276-326 (80.9 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 288-339 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 277-327 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 237-280 (69.5 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Koraidon: 276-326 (80.9 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 288-339 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 277-327 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This gives us a very powerful wallbreaker and sweeper that is absurdly hard to revenge kill. Its excellent stats make Koraidon a very versatile Pokemon, being both the tier's staple Choice Scarfer and a potent user of Choice Band, but what ultimately pushes it over the edge is Swords Dance.
Koraidon was already borderline before the DLC dropped, but like Weirdhamster said, Koraidon often needed to sacrifice its Tera type to blow past Ho-Oh, which was a shaky but splashable check. Additionally, Swords Dance sets generally needed to rely on Flame Charge to boost their Speed, which meant Koraidon needed to decide between a minimally useful move that was difficult to find opportunities to use, or run the risk of being revenge killed by speed control.
Scale Shot changes all of this. Koraidon can now attack with a 90% accurate move that, with Loaded Dice, has 100 BP minimum, which at the same time boosts Speed. While the Defense drop does make Koraidon more susceptible to priority, no priority user can reliably OHKO Koraidon from full.
+2 252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Scale Shot (4 hits) vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 364-432 (87.7 - 104%) -- approx. 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 455-540 (109.6 - 130.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Arceus Extreme Speed vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 312-369 (91.4 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Ghost Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 278-328 (81.5 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 455-540 (109.6 - 130.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Arceus Extreme Speed vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 312-369 (91.4 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Ghost Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 278-328 (81.5 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And this isn't going over its ability to Tera. Tera Fire is obvious choice, granting it a resistance to Fairy and Ice, while powering up its Flare Blitz to unspeakable levels. However, like other in the thread have discussed, Koraidon's Tera type is open to plenty of deviation, as it's more than excellent without Terastalizing, while a single surprise Tera can end games on the spot thanks to Koraidon's sheer sweeping potential.
The result? Swords Dance Koraidon is insane, as when played even slightly competently it is almost guarantee to get a KO. It doesn't beat literally everything, but it 1v1s way too much of the tier and has too easy of a time sweeping for it to be healthy. The only reliable way to stop Swords Dance Koraidon from getting at least one KO is to either run a small group of very specific Pokemon or surprise it with Tera. For the former, the only example that is genuinely useful outside of countering Koraidon is Dondozo, which is still very specific and niche. For the latter, it is essential to note that you'd need the right Tera at the right time, sacrifice Tera, which is still a massive loss since your opponent still has their's, and be at the mercy of your opponent's prediction and Koraidon's Tera-type.
I'd also like to refute a few other arguments I've heard in defense of Koraidon. These aren't directed at any specific individual, as I've heard each of these several times.
What about Fairy-types?: Most Fairy-types get bodied by Flare Blitz, and none except Zacian-Crowned outspeed Koraidon naturally. Koraidon's most common Tera-type is Fire, which lets it beat most Fairy-types one-on-one and sometimes even use them as setup fodder.
What X Fairy-type that resists/is immune to Fire?: None of Tapu Fini, Dachsbun, and Azumarill are viable, so if you have to use a Pokemon that otherwise is completely unusable, that means this Pokemon needs to go.
If we ban Koraidon, won't Stall become too good?: Koraidon does do well against stall, but at the same time it murders every other playstyle. Pokemon like Koraidon put a stranglehold on how people build teams, making teambuilding very samey and rigid. Ironically this makes stall better, since that playstyle relies on having a hard answer to as many Pokemon as possible.
And the thing is, stall is really bad here. It's hard to counter a tier where everything hits like a truck and is absurdly bulky at the same time. One of stall's main redeeming qualities is that it does extremely well against certain Pokemon, notably Koraidon and Xerneas. For Koraidon, you can just fit a Dondozo and call it a day. No other team style can afford this, as outside of stall Dondozo is too passive. I don't think stall should get nerfed, but if anything, banning Koraidon is a major blow to it. Plus, if stall is genuinely broken, then we can easily ban stall after Koraidon. Broken being broken is never healthy.
Overall, while I love using Koraidon, it has to go in order to have a healthy metagame. I will be voting BAN, and I implore others to do the same.
Last edited:
Little problem with that statement, every single relevant fairy dies after it clicks SD and uses flare blitz. Zygarde dies after rocks, xerneas doesn't survive, and everything else is not even relevant. The only fairy that survives a hit is Arceus. Also, is this the voting requirements thread
Attachments
No, you can find that one here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...uspect-ii-voter-identification-thread.3728408
Great point, though it is important to note you have yet to hit the proper GXE/games as of how. You're fairly close, good luck.
I won’t be pushing on ladder or anything but upon seeing this NatDex suspect exists I wanted to voice my opinion on stall that nobody asked for, particularly about this Koraidon + Stall meta this suspect test looks to be leaning towards.
Pretty much what I think is going on here is that stall is being used so much in part because it’s the best playstyle to go up against Koraidon-based cores with. People might say the meta would get more defensive with Koraidon gone, but I honestly don’t know if that hypothesis is true since a Koraidon ban would, in theory, give people one less reason to use stall in this metagame.
Provided my education on NatDex Ubers is very little, I honestly think Koraidon’s impact on offense is a bigger problem than the defensive part. Fast Dragon-Types have been a problem for matchup parity for several generations now, and I don’t see how a Dragon that has this much firepower (pun intended) for its Speed tier can be seen as a balanced asset within a metagame that already struggles to contain the likes of Xerneas, Zygarde-C, and several Arceus Formes. The ability for Koraidon to run Scale Shot now to further alleviate bad matchups against potential checks like Ho-Oh or Yveltal (I’m probably missing a few, to be fair) gives this Pokémon even more role compression than it already had as both a WinCon, a Choice user, and a pivot, on top of further increasing the gap in viability between Koraidon and other powerful Dragons.
In conclusion, if I had more knowledge of this metagame and particularly if voting reqs were something I would actually shoot for (I’m nowhere near a hardcore competitive player), I personally would be leaning towards Ban so far, but I’m open to having my mind changed if more experienced players start feeling otherwise.
Pretty much what I think is going on here is that stall is being used so much in part because it’s the best playstyle to go up against Koraidon-based cores with. People might say the meta would get more defensive with Koraidon gone, but I honestly don’t know if that hypothesis is true since a Koraidon ban would, in theory, give people one less reason to use stall in this metagame.
Provided my education on NatDex Ubers is very little, I honestly think Koraidon’s impact on offense is a bigger problem than the defensive part. Fast Dragon-Types have been a problem for matchup parity for several generations now, and I don’t see how a Dragon that has this much firepower (pun intended) for its Speed tier can be seen as a balanced asset within a metagame that already struggles to contain the likes of Xerneas, Zygarde-C, and several Arceus Formes. The ability for Koraidon to run Scale Shot now to further alleviate bad matchups against potential checks like Ho-Oh or Yveltal (I’m probably missing a few, to be fair) gives this Pokémon even more role compression than it already had as both a WinCon, a Choice user, and a pivot, on top of further increasing the gap in viability between Koraidon and other powerful Dragons.
In conclusion, if I had more knowledge of this metagame and particularly if voting reqs were something I would actually shoot for (I’m nowhere near a hardcore competitive player), I personally would be leaning towards Ban so far, but I’m open to having my mind changed if more experienced players start feeling otherwise.
- Status