Resource National Dex Viability Rankings [update post #116]

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jho

is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Driver
Moderator
OP Stolen from the OU Thread


art by Cresselia92

Viability Rankings
(new banner coming soon!)


Welcome to the first official NatDex OU Viability Rankings thread. In this thread, we as a community will be ranking every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." You're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in NatDex OU and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each NatDex OU Pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a tier list for the entire metagame, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense, defense, and supportive presences in the metagame within this thread. For example, Ferrothorn can be ranked in the A tier as a supportive presence, Ash Greninja can be ranked in the A+ as an offensive presence, and Toxapex can be ranked in the A+ tier as a defensive presence. While these three examples can also be found in the initial rankings, the viability of Pokemon and their roles within the metagame can and will change over time, so we will be sure to keep an open mind to this as well and adjust the thread accordingly during each update.

Viability Council:

The Pokemon in the sub-ranks are ordered alphabetically. Completed analyses are linked to their respective pokemon.

S Rank:

:darmanitan-galar: Darmanitan-Galar
:greninja-ash: Greninja-Ash
:metagross-mega: Metagross-Mega

S-

:tornadus-therian: Tornadus-Therian
:toxapex: Toxapex

A Rank:

A+

:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn
:garchomp: Garchomp
:heatran: Heatran
:hydreigon: Hydreigon
:lopunny-mega: Lopunny-Mega
:rotom-heat: Rotom-Heat
:slowbro: Slowbro
:tangrowth: Tangrowth
:tapu-fini: Tapu Fini

A

:aegislash: Aegislash
:alakazam-mega: Alakazam-Mega
:cinderace: Cinderace
:clefable: Clefable
:dragapult: Dragapult
:gliscor: Gliscor
:hippowdon: Hippowdon
:kyurem: Kyurem
:magnezone: Magnezone
:tyranitar-mega: Tyranitar-Mega

A-

:excadrill: Excadrill
:greninja: Greninja
:kartana: Kartana
:landorus-therian: Landorus-Therian
:latios-mega: Latios-Mega
:magearna: Magearna
:manaphy: Manaphy
:pelipper: Pelipper
:reuniclus: Reuniclus
:scizor-mega: Scizor-Mega
:serperior: Serperior
:swampert-mega: Swampert-Mega
:volcarona: Volcarona

B Rank:

B+

:alomomola: Alomomola
:bisharp: Bisharp
:corviknight: Corviknight
:chansey: Chansey
:charizard-mega-x: Charizard-Mega-X
:gastrodon: Gastrodon
:gengar: Gengar
:latias-mega: Latias-Mega
:mawile-mega: Mawile-Mega
:mew: Mew
:rotom-wash: Rotom-Wash
:slowbro-mega: Slowbro-Mega
:tapu-lele: Tapu Lele
:tyranitar: Tyranitar
:venusaur-mega: Venusaur-Mega
:victini: Victini
:zapdos: Zapdos

B

:kommo-o: Kommo-o
:medicham-mega: Medicham-Mega
:melmetal: Melmetal
:weavile: Weavile

B-

:amoonguss: Amoonguss
:blacephalon: Blacephalon
:charizard-mega-y: Charizard-Mega-Y
:ditto: Ditto
:dracovish: Dracovish
:gallade-mega: Gallade-Mega
:grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl
:gyarados: Gyarados
:gyarados-mega: Gyarados-Mega
:hawlucha: Hawlucha
:hoopa-unbound: Hoopa-Unbound
:jirachi: Jirachi
:sableye-mega: Sableye-Mega
:seismitoad: Seismitoad

C Rank:

:aggron-mega: Aggron-Mega
:crawdaunt: Crawdaunt
:diancie-mega: Diancie-Mega
:Mandibuzz:Mandibuzz
:mantine: Mantine
:mimikyu: Mimikyu
:muk-alola: Muk-Alola
:nidoking: Nidoking
:ribombee: Ribombee
:skarmory: Skarmory
:suicune: Suicune
:Tapu Koko: Tapu Koko
:Terrakion: Terrakion
:thundurus-therian: Thundurus-Therian
:torkoal: Torkoal
:venusaur: Venusaur
:volcanion: Volcanion

  • Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will be deleted. Expand on your opinion with actual analysis showing understanding of the metagame and perhaps bringing a unique perspective to the conversation.
  • Absolutely no flaming, personal attacks, or general idiocy will be tolerated. Part of this is under moderator discretion and please know that posting in this thread is a privilege, not a right. You'll get warned initially if it is not something overly malicious, but harsher punishments can and will come with repeated behavior or severe offenses.
  • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. There needs to be more substance than just this. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
  • When nominating a Pokemon to move from one rank to another, do not merely list its obvious qualities such as stats, typing, movepool, etc. If you think a Pokemon deserves to rise or drop, explain what has changed in the meta to cause such Pokemon to get better or worse. I can assure you that the VR Council already knows the obvious qualities and we are far more interested in understanding why you believe it has increased or decreased in viability.
  • Unrelated discussion such as talk of (potential) suspects and unproductive one liners that do not greatly contribute to discussion will be deleted. If this becomes a recurring issue for any particular user, then it could lead to an infraction. If you are unsure where to post something, feel free to start a conversation with me on here or discord. Moreover, if you have a general question, then odds are it belongs in the SQSA, not here.
Blacklisted Pokemon: All posts regarding these Pokemon will be deleted (or nominations of these Pokemon will be removed)
  • Deoxys-D
And thats it! Happy posting :blobthumbsup:
 
Last edited:
:slowbro-mega: B- -> B+

Mega Slowbro is ranked too low. The amount of Physical attackers that it blanket checks is pretty amazing and when paired up with a sturdy SpD wall its really hard to kill.

:Dugtrio: A -> S

Please for the love of god gets this broken shit out of the tier. All you need to do is read the posts in the metagame discussion thread to understand why this thing is so hated. Its amazing what the power of trapping can do. Genesect pivoting out of Heatran and switching to this is so super fun I love it haha kill me.

:latias-mega: A -> B+

Ranked a bit too high imo. I get its defensive sets are decent but in a metagame where your 6 slots have to account for everything. Its defensive niche usually gets taking up. Also Reuniclus now has Stored Power so its CM set now has major competition now.

:tapu-fini: A -> B+

I don't understand how this thing is in A. Its a Water that can't check Steels and lacks recovery. With Defog now removing Terrain its become way easier to punish now.

:scizor-mega: A -> A+

Curse Mega Scizor is such a good set man. It can basically check anything that doesn't have a fire move. With Mega Metagross, Zygarde, Kartana, Galarian Darmanitan, and Melmetal being staples. I see this thing belonging with the big guys in A+.

I would wright more but theres a lot on this list so I would probably be sitting here for hours writing this so no thanks.
 
I’m going to post my full VR thoughts later, but Pelipper and Torkoal should be ranked with their respective abusers (Peli to A and Venu to C imo). These two cores rely on each other to work properly, so it makes sense they should be ranked together.

Ok so before I go onto the actual VR, I wanna point the incredible bloat in some of the tiers. A- is extraordinarily crowded with TWENTY Pokemon, which trumps over the 16 in A rank (which is also quite bloated). Aside from that, this is a good VR for the data that we have, because NatDex’s playerbase is relatively small.

:dugtrio: A to S
Yeah so this is pretty much a given. Dugtrio’s presence is felt in the builder and the game itself. It traps an absurd number of things and leaves a bunch of shit extremely niche (think Cinderace, Dracozolt and Toxtricity). It also enables of ton of other Pokemon, namely Genesect and Mega Charizard Y, to become proficient balance breakers.

:darmanitan-galar: A to A+
GDarm is GDarm. Its got strong offensive presence between Icicle Crash and U-turn, is good Speed control/cleaner with a Scarf, and is essential to the function of VoltTurn offenses. Meme Zen BD sets like the one I’m running have a niche on Screens, too.

:dragapult: A to A-
Dragapult is not the same mon as it is in SS. It’s very fast but is not that strong offensively, so it often has to compromise by running Specs or DD, which limits coverage or locks it into undesirable STABs. This is more prevalent in this meta, where locking in can spell doom for teams.

:celesteela: A- to B+/B
Corviknight’s existence doesn’t bode well for this Pokemon. Cele’s strongest niche over Corv is handling Lele + Zam better, but with the PsyTerrain nerf this isn’t the most relevant factor. Corv has reliable recovery, a pivot move and Defog, as well as a way to threaten Heatran switch-ins (Body Press / U-turn). It is also a better win-con with Bulk Up, so Cele should drop.

:garchomp: :gliscor: A- to B+
These two aren’t bad at all, but I find that Zygarde or Dugtrio is the Ground I’m putting on teams right now. Defog Corviknight’s usage is particularly bad for SR Gliscor and TankChomp, but it is setup fodder for SD variants of both. Regardless, these utility options have disappeared and more offensive sets are going to be outdone by Zygarde.
 
Last edited:

Chazm

Z-moves did (almost) nothing wrong
is a Pre-Contributor
This VR seems quite dodgy to me and overrates / underrates a lot of threats in my opinion so I'm here to give a change of which Pokemon I believe should rise and drop.
S Rank:

:dugtrio: Dugtrio
Dugtrio's insanely busted rn. It traps pretty much all of Genesect's counterplay options and that alone makes it an incredibly powerful mon to utilize. Outside of this it can also assist with taking out mons such as Mega Metagross, Magearna, and other wallbreakers that would give trouble to teams. It's such a good slot and it's just waiting to get banned.
Arena Trap banned, lol.
:genesect: Genesect
:metagross-mega: Metagross-Mega
:zygarde: Zygarde
Zygarde is quite frankly an absolutely incredible Pokemon right now and even with all of the preparation that's going around it is still slaying teams with Choice Band, SubToxic, SubGlare... the list goes on, for a Pokemon with already heavy blanket utility in being able to tank hits from a large portion of mons from this VR, mainly Fire types, and even be one of the best sweepers in the metagame when compiled with its current roles. Weakness Policy is capable of invalidating most checks on balance, and Extreme Speed insures Zygarde against some other revenge killers such as Galarian Darmanitan. It almost does it all.

A Rank:

A+

:aegislash: Aegislash
:blastoise-mega: Blastoise-Mega
Whilst it still suffers from its checks being highly common, Mega Blastoise is possibly one of the best abusers of a team structure. Its checks tend to have limited HP or ways of being pressured, such as through Choice Band Zygarde. The bulk it has also gives it plenty of setup opportunities to smash other teams down against Ground types like Landorus-Therian and in some cases Zygarde.
:darmanitan-galar: Darmanitan-Galar
Very difficult mon to switch into. CB practically has no defensive counterplay other than 'hope your opponent clicks the wrong move'. It does have some good offensive counterplay (like Mega Metagross and other offensive steel staples) as well as checks to Choice Scarf like Tapu Fini and Melmetal, so it's not entirely broken but it's definitely underrated by this VR for sure.
:heatran:
Heatran
Specially defensive Heatran is possibly the metagames best Stealth Rock user right now, as it happens to roll a lot of compression into one. It scouts for Choice moves and takes on Dragapult very nicely. Most Dragon switchins also hate getting Toxiced and as such it tends to wear down teams without Toxapex quite fast. Trapper Heatran is also pretty good considering specially defensive Heatran is common right now, luring checks such as Tapu Fini that would otherwise hard counter it.
:tangrowth: Tangrowth
Tangrowth's a very easy mon to splash on teams right now. Dealing with Zygarde, Mega Blastoise, and helmet being one of the best answers to Mega Metagross makes Tangrowth a prime member for Ground resists on teams. Assault Vest pairs exceedingly well with Slowbro too as one of the toughest Regenerator cores to break.
:toxapex: Toxapex

A

:corviknight: Corviknight
Corviknight is a top tier defogger and pivot that tends to fit on a lot of teams even despite its weakness to some common mons such as Heatran and Aegislash. It is possibly one of the best responses teams can have to breakers like Mega Metagross, Melmetal and Kartana and thus tends to be more splashable than expected. Rocky Helmet also tends to be an excellent choice for a breaker that can pivot around Choice Scarf Galarian Darmanitan too.
:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn
:greninja: Greninja
:landorus-therian: Landorus-Therian
Landorus-Therian doesn't really compare that well to the A+ mons. Galarian Darmanitan pressures it too heavily and Mega Metagross gives it severe competition as a Stealth Rocker. It's pretty good as a wallbreaker but due to its mediocre 91 speed it tends to get outsped after killing something, often letting a team member go down at the same time.
:kartana: Kartana
I'd only say this just about drops but it still drops for good reasons. Choice Scarf is no longer as easy to use as it was in the past due to the advent of Boots Volcarona, and stronger wallbreaking sets like Swords Dance still get revenge killed by new faces like Mega Metagross, Genesect and Galarian Darmanitan. It also suffers competition from the aforementioned Mega Metagross and Genesect as well as a slower wallbreaker in Melmetal. Overall, less of a useful mon than an A+ ranking would imply.
:lopunny-mega: Lopunny-Mega
:slowbro: Slowbro
Slowbro got major buffs this generation by the introduction of old threats like Mega Metagross and Zygarde and new Pokemon like Dracovish to wall. It also got access to Teleport which makes it a brilliant offensive pivot for teams when combined with Regenerator. Even though it doesn't like Ghosts such as Aegislash the ability to Teleport in combination with healing with Leftovers or chip damage with Rocky Helmet makes Slowbro an incredible role compressor in the current metagame.
:tapu-fini: Tapu Fini
You can fog away terrain but Fini's still damn good as it's practically the best form of counterplay that exists for Mega Blastoise, Galarian Darmanitan and Dracovish right now. As well as this it likes Genesect being around as it can both knock Genesect items as well as enjoy the increased usage of Heatran and Volcarona. Other steels that would also give it problems like Kartana are less useful.

A-

:chansey: Chansey
:clefable: Clefable
:ditto: Ditto
In a metagame ruled by offense Ditto is no stranger. It's still the best revenge killer around and can outright reverse sweep Screen teams with their own Mega Blastoise. It's absolutely underrated for this reason.
:dragapult: Dragapult
As good of an offense killer this mon is, it can struggle to break through balance with Choice Specs despite holding solid coverage as it tends to be easily blanket checked by the likes of Tangrowth and other specially defensive Pokemon such as Heatran and Toxapex. It also doesn't hold reign over speed tiers either - it's easily revenge killed by the likes of Genesect, Galarian Darmanitan and Aegislash, thus leading to it being less effective overall. It also tends to hate Fini being quite good in the meta right now despite its lack of recovery.
:greninja-ash: Greninja-Ash
With the advent of Shell Smash Mega Blastoise and Dracovish, as well as Zygarde making Water and Ground resists absolutely mandatory for teams, Ash Greninja really struggles to make much of an impact due to these mons becoming so common. It's still a very good spiker and often cleans lategame but in general its effectiveness is decreased as a result of Water resists becoming more common.
:hydreigon:Hydreigon
Whilst Hydreigon still has some very serious 4MSS, the Groundium Z Nasty Plot + Roost set is a very solid balance breaker with utilities such as being able to switch into Heatran, non Dragonium Zygarde, and Ash-Greninja in a breaker slot. It also pressures Toxapex hard as a result of its typing and fairly free setup.
:magnezone: Magnezone
:melmetal: Melmetal
:mew: Mew
:rotom-wash: Rotom-Wash
:tornadus-therian: Tornadus-Therian
Tornadus-Therian has not necessarily gotten worse but it tends to fare less well against Mega Metagross as a Defogger and suffers a lot of competition from Corviknight for this role. Offensively its power isn't as strong as well, being able to be blanket checked by new additions like Melmetal. It also doesn't function very well as a Ground resist anymore due to Zygarde's reintroduction.
:volcarona:
Volcarona
Boots Volcarona is undeniably good but it really suffers from 4MSS more than any other Pokemon right now. It can't put a dent in Toxapex nor can it deal with large amounts of Toxic Heatran going around. It also suffers from the rise of alternate resistances like Rotom-Heat, and the things that it did check such as Mega Mawile are much less useful right now.

B Rank:

B+

:alakazam-mega: Alakazam-Mega
:charizard-mega-x: Charizard-Mega-X
:garchomp: Garchomp
Garchomp suffers from increased Ground type prep and Zygarde being reintroduced. It also finds it much harder to break through Corviknight than other Stealth Rock users which means its niche as an offensive Stealth Rock user is diminished.
:gliscor: Gliscor
Gliscor suffers from Galarian Darmanitan and generally increased Ground type competition. It also has a new wall in Corviknight which can give it major troubles without Magnezone support.
:kommo-o: Kommo-o
:latias-mega: Latias-Mega
Doesn't like Mega Metagross and Aegislash being all around the place but its defensive utility is still there and it can often paralyze both of them if they try to hard switch in.
:latios-mega: Latios-Mega
:magearna: Magearna
SG Magearna is not good. It's practically entirely outclassed by Genesect at this role and it still has to deal with extreme 4MSS when accounting for Mega Metagross, Aegislash and Volcarona being all around the place. Specially defensive sets tend to get worn down quite fast and the metagame is not really as demanding for a special tank like Magearna as it once was. Threats like Dragapult can still status it or click Fire coverage, Hydreigon is capable of smashing it through with its Z move, and in general bulky offense is less about having a core like Magearna + Landorus to support it via VoltTurn as a lot of wallbreakers just go straight through these two.
:mawile-mega: Mawile-Mega
Mega Mawile suffers from a 'why would you use this' Steel syndrome, being generally outclassed by Mega Metagross and Aegislash in its wallbreaking. It is also very tough to get in and sweep with as the likes of Zygarde, Rotom-Heat and Heatran are continuous barriers in its effectiveness.
:medicham-mega: Medicham-Mega
Medicham-Mega simply suffers from the fact that there are better offensive Megas to use and that Aegislash happens to exist right now, which can make wallbreaking fairly tough for it.
:scizor-mega: Scizor-Mega
Now that Dugtrio is gone, Scizor is hopelessly walled by Toxapex and other new threats like Corviknight and Rotom-H give it problems as a pivot. However, as long as Zygarde is around it will still have its worth as a steel.
:serperior: Serperior
:slowbro-mega: Slowbro-Mega
Like its non mega brother, Mega Slowbro is still an excellent choice for a Mega Metagross resist and whilst it doesn't abuse Teleport as well it has other offensive options up its sleeve that make it have a distinct advantage over Slowbro.
:pelipper: Pelipper
:swampert-mega: Swampert-Mega
Both of these should drop as a result of water resists becoming very needed for teams, like Tangrowth and Tapu Fini. They are also part of the same style and should be ranked together in my personal opinion.
:rotom-heat: Rotom-Heat
Highly underrated under its initial position, Rotom-Heat has become a better mon under the introduction of Boots, as well as Nasty Plot + Hidden Power. This makes it a seriously good balance breaker as it can now bypass Zygarde and some other mons that initially gave it trouble before. It is also one of the better Genesect checks in the metagame right now and this can give it some high value as a slot.
:tapu-bulu: Tapu Bulu
:tapu-lele: Tapu Lele
Sadly, Tapu Lele is quite awkward as a wallbreaker.. It is outrun by plenty threats like Mega Metagross, Genesect, and other new tools that offense teams now have. This means that it falls into an awkward spot of being an excellent balance breaker but not really having anything on the other ends that it can really use and can end up deadweight as a slot, similar to Dracovish.
:tyranitar: Tyranitar
:tyranitar-mega: Tyranitar-Mega
Tyranitar and its Mega evolution both hate to see Zygarde coming back and other targets that it used to be able to deal with well are now less common, such as Mega Latias / Latios.


B

:diancie-mega: Diancie-Mega
Diancie is not worth using most of the time. As a result of the new Steels being reintroduced, and the popularity of Mega Scizor mean it can have some great difficulty breaking teams as it will often have heavy 4MSS on what to hit.
:dracovish: Dracovish
Dracovish is decent but the issues that it has with water resists becoming common can be difficult for it to adapt to. The stronger speed tiers give Band extreme troubles as even defensive Pokemon can outspeed it and KO it with ease. The main niches that Dracovish has right now is a scarfer on rain but even this can be inconsistent when some Pokemon like Tangrowth and Slowbro are capable of taking Choice Band on fairly easily. Dracovish also suffers from the rise of checks like Hydreigon, which give it even more problems trying to put something in offense and generally making it outclassed by other ludicrous wallbreakers like Galarian Darmanitan and Kartana.
:excadrill: Excadrill
Likewise with Dracovish, Excadrill tends to dislike new resists coming along like Slowbro as a response to the heavy usage of Mega Metagross. It also despises Mega Blastoise getting Shell Smash so it can set up on it and Zygarde coming back as it can fairly easily eat Earthquakes from it.
:grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl
:kyurem: Kyurem
:sableye-mega: Sableye-Mega
Stall in general is less viable since Dugtrio got banned and Mega Sableye doesn't really beat any of the new Pokemon about. Yet, it still suffers from the newer breakers like Galarian Darmanitan continually threatening it out and Mega Metagross forcing it to invest in Defense making it lesser of a Magic Bouncer. It does however have new support in Corviknight so not all is lost.
:reuniclus: Reuniclus
AA + Stored Power is a great set but it can end up being really inconsistent with Aegislash and other new Steel types about. As well as this the overall power level is yet increased further meaning that Genesect and other Pokemon can tend to cause trouble even after an Acid Armor. It also tends to be incredibly passive before actually getting to Special Attack levels that can start killing things.
:victini: Victini
:weavile: Weavile
:zapdos: Zapdos
Zapdos fails to make much of a splash in an offensively oriented metagame. Zygarde is back and whilst it can definitely hurt it with HP Ice it also makes it weary of what moves it can actually run. As a defogger it's also not great as it can tend to lose to Zen Headbutt Mega Metagross quite easily. Zapdos also struggles with the large amount of Corviknight which in general outclass it as a defensive Pokemon, as well as Rotom formes gaining more relevance as traditional Ground resists with Galarian Darmanitan running about.

B-

:alomomola: Alomomola
Stall's best answer to CB Garm and a great Wishpasser that still checks what it used to. This mon hasn't really changed but the VR heavily underrated this mon.
:gastrodon: Gastrodon
:gengar: Gengar
:gyarados: Gyarados
:gyarados-mega: Gyarados-Mega
:hoopa-unbound: Hoopa-Unbound
Hoopa-Unbound just tends to whiff against most teams now. Ditto is better than ever and the speed mark for teams has increased meaning that Hoopa-Unbound tends to have even less chances to break against bulky offenses. Whilst it does like some Psychics such as Slowbro seeing increased usage it also dislikes breakers like Galarian Darmanitan outdoing it offensively. There is also more priority than ever before, and thus it tends to only get off one hit before it is picked off for good. Not a great choice for a slot imo.
:hawlucha:
Hawlucha
The metagame is too bulky for Hawlucha to attempt to sweep most of the time due to Mega Metagross and Aegislash being all over the place, and Seed support is tougher to come by as the Tapus become a lot less splashable.
:hippowdon: Hippowdon
:jirachi: Jirachi
:seismitoad: Seismitoad
:venusaur-mega:Venusaur-Mega
A lot of the targets it previously resisted are less prominent now. It's not really a good Zygarde resist, it struggles with dealing with newer breakers like Galarian Darmanitan and Aegislash, and in general is outclassed as a Grass type, being super effectively hit with Psychic Fangs from Dracovish, making it lose its role as a resist to that too. It also sacrifices an important Mega slot which can be utilized better by Mega Metagross and Mega Sableye.

:volcanion: Volcanion

C Rank:

C+
:amoonguss: Amoonguss
One of the best resists to Mega Blastoise period. It still doesn't like the new additions but with Spore and a larger support moveset than Tangrowth I do believe it deserves a bit more representation on this VR.
:azumarill: Azumarill
:bisharp: Bisharp
:blacephalon: Blacephalon
Blacephalon hates to see Zygarde back and tends to be unable to get many switchins with which to unleash its nuclear attacks. It also suffers from Aegislash being introduced and Gengar getting Nasty Plot which gives it serious competition as a Ghost-type wallbreaker.
:charizard-mega-y:Charizard-Mega-Y
Zygarde got reintroduced, and some new faces in Dracovish have also come to give this mon grief. A slow wallbreaker with a 4x Stealth Rock weakness that is unable to break most balances flops heavily in my book but even outside of this matchup it does have some benefits given from Dracovish as other Water resists like Seismitoad and Gastrodon have been seeing some usage.
:dracozolt: Dracozolt
:garchomp-mega: Garchomp-Mega
:manaphy: Manaphy
Manaphy tends to get outclassed by other Water type breakers like Greninja, Rotom-Wash and Mega Blastoise.
:moltres: Moltres
:quagsire: Quagsire
:suicune: Suicune

C

:aggron-mega: Aggron-Mega
:avalugg: Avalugg
:celesteela: Celesteela
Very bad mon. You have very little reason to use this over Corviknight now.

:corsola-galar: Corsola-Galar
:crawdaunt:
Crawdaunt
:gallade-mega: Gallade-Mega
:hatterene: Hatterene
:heracross-mega: Heracross-Mega
:keldeo: Keldeo
:kingdra: Kingdra
:mamoswine: Mamoswine
:mandibuzz:
Mandibuzz
:nidoking: Nidoking
:pyukumuku:
Pyukumuku
:ribombee:Ribombee
:tapu-koko: Tapu Koko
Tapu Koko simply suffers from the fact that there are too many grasses about for it to actually deal damage. Tangrowth is incredibly good, Ferrothorn is slapped onto teams as usual, Zygarde voltblocks it like no tomorrow, etc. It just doesn't really do that much now, it's threatened out by a lot of Pokemon that otherwise didn't exist in the last generation, and Rotoms now have Nasty Plot which just makes it further outclassed. Oh yeah and Dragapult dropped.

:skarmory: Skarmory
:thundurus-therian: Thundurus-Therian

C-

:araquanid: Araquanid
:barraskewda: Barraskewda
:buzzwole: Buzzwole
:cinderace: Cinderace
With all of the Water types about and increased power levels I really can't see how this mon is worth a slot in National Dex. Maybe getting off an emergency Court Change is worth it but I seriously have doubts about that.

:cresselia: Cresselia
:deoxys-defense: Deoxys-Defense
:dragonite: Dragonite
:jellicent: Jellicent
:mantine: Mantine
:marowak-alola: Marowak-Alola
:mimikyu: Mimikyu
:pinsir-mega: Pinsir-Mega
Very crap and inefficient wallbreaker. Can't really deal with Mega Metagross being one of the faces of the metagame and even Corviknight gives it major trouble.

:shedinja: Shedinja
:terrakion: Terrakion
:thundurus: Thundurus
:torkoal: Torkoal
:toxtricity: Toxtricity
:uxie: Uxie
:venusaur: Venusaur
Ranked with its playstyle, just like rain.

All of the mons in this colour are effectively not worth using - delete these if C is to be merged.


Made some big edits - 21/01/2020
 
Last edited:
Why isnt Dugtrio automatically S Rank? Arena Trap alone warps the metagame and Dugtrio is at the epicenter of it. I dont really think I need to elaborate on why. Its just common sense.
 
Sorry for the double post but my previous one was low hanging fruit

Anyways
:mawile-mega: Drop
I don't see much of Maw outside of TR anymore. She requires lots of support to be an immediate threat compared to Mega Metagross, who does largely the exact same thing without any support whatsoever. Her bulk has been completely power-creeped, too, and for a slow Steel attacker Melmetal rivals her attack with far greater bulk and not using up a mega slot.

:mantine: Rise
As a reliable check to Gren and Vish, and due to Haze faring decent against Mega Blastoise as well as being a defogger, Mantine has role compression. C- is definitely too harsh for a water absorb mon that has recovery and defog.

:azumarill: Drop
Why is she so high? Literally no one uses her outside of niche belly drum sets which havent been relevant in forever. I guess she shits on gren but thats about it.

:garchomp-mega: Drop
Regular chomp is outclassed by Zygarde, and Mega Garchomp is worse than regular chomp. That speed tier absolutely hurts for a mixed wallbreaker. Shouldn't be so high since he often requires sand support to get going. I'll eat my words in five months when he gets dragon dance and hes the next mega blastoise.

:slowbro: Rise
Every day people are realizing that this mon keeps getting better and better. Teleport, good typing and being one of the only reliable physically defensive vish checks in the tier warrant it a higher spot.

:Grimmsnarl: Rise
Should be wayyyyy higher up. The premier and most reliable screens setter and is a staple on almost every single HO teams.

:corsola-galar: Rise
I know that this mon isn't nearly as strong as it was a month ago but he remains an incredibly reliable lead that is a threat to most physical attackers.

:hoopa-unbound: Drop
This mon hasnt been relevant in a loooonnggg time, due to it having absolutely atrocious typing and low speed for a scarfer.

:diancie-mega: Drop
Mega Diancie is unironically one of the worst mega evolutions right now. This meta is one of steel and Aegislash and Genesect and Mega Metagross and Mega Scizor all have a blast fucking over anything Mega Diancie does.

Blacklisted Pokemon: All posts regarding these Pokemon will be deleted (or nominations of these Pokemon will be removed)

  • N/A -- let's try to not have this list grow too much this generation!
Aw man I was about to drop a sick 3 page essay on why we should unban solgaleo
 
This metagame is pretty wack rn with Genesect, Arena Trap, M-Toise, but I would like to share my thoughts on what should rise or drop.

2980EAB7-0CEE-493F-8618-2CE13C0D8DDD.png
A+ to S
Pretty self-explanatory. It’s near impossible to counter/check due to the amount of sets it can run and the different versions of the same sets. It’s stats are incredibly well rounded with absurdly good bulk for a decently fast setup sweeper, and a good enough base 100atk. It does the same thing as in Gen7, which should be a sign that this mon is just as good in this meta.

C42CE9C9-3086-4530-811C-98F932E0D924.png
A to A+
I disagree that this mon should drop cause it has a hard time with balance cores, if anything it should rise for a few reasons. Dragapult’s speed tier is still absolutely ludicrous, being the second fastest unboosted mon in the tier only really outpaced by M-Zam which isn’t very common rn cause of MMeta and Genesect. This lets it run Modest/Adamant if it doesn’t mind getting outsped by Koko, Lopunny, and Ash Gren. Even if it isn’t as hard hitting as in SWSH OU, Sylveon isn’t viable in NatDex OU and most Clef run Bold in this format. Most of the stuff mentioned to swap into it besides SpD Tran is 2HKOd by its coverage. AV Mage and SpD Tran are worn down easily by chip. Pult can run a variety of different sets in this meta like Specs, SubDD, Sub-Disable, etc. DD Z-Phantom Force imo is crazy good. Even with Adamant, at +1 only Scarf Koko is outspeeding you. Z-Phantom also OHKOs a large portion of the metagame, including Pex, Fini, AV Mage, Tran, Lando, and Ferrothorn.

+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 237-280 (77.9 - 92.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Tapu Fini: 388-457 (113.1 - 133.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 394-465 (108.5 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 423-498 (109.5 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 391-462 (102.3 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 345-406 (98 - 115.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

If this mon boasts both versatility and a fantastic speed tier, it shouldn’t be this low.

7C084653-BF4D-4949-B440-68B3D373CE7F.png
A- to A
It has a bit of a 4MSS, but it and Torn are the best defensive defoggers in the tier. It provides more utility than Celesteela while only being frailer by a very small margin. Defog + Pressure is a dangerous combination, letting it 1v1 almost every rocker except Tran. Bulk Up Corv is a solid wincon and it can even be used on Defog sets to beat SD Lando, Kart, and Chomp. It provides plenty of role compression from pivot, wincon, defogger, fairy and steel resist, and even stallbreaker. Hence why I nom it to A.

DABC3464-77E4-4CDC-B5F9-E3A50F16398A.png
00DD427E-780A-4C27-8245-DD0761631928.png
A-/B+ to Lower
Both of them hate current meta trends. Mainly all the steels roaming the tier. Both of them don’t appreciate a nerf to their damage output and are harder to use over other breakers.

7C980CF4-9BC4-4109-875F-D6ACE32C6298.png
B to B+ or Higher
Not sure why this isn’t used often. If anything, its stronger here than in Gen 7 with this gen blessing it with HDB. Scarf/Band, and HDB sets can check MMeta, Genesect, Kart, non-Shadow Sneak Aegi, Garm, and Mage. Its a solid pivot with good bulk and dmg output. Z-Celebrate sets work fine as well. It’s criminally underrated and more players should notice its potential.

34337928-DF08-435A-9D7A-A88DF5A90AF9.png
C+ to B-
Another episode of why HDB are the best things ever. Decent speed tier, steels are everywhere, Pressure + Defog is always scary, and a good check to Volc, Kartana, and other dangerous offensive threats. A reminder that this mon has 125 SpA and a great offensive typing.

19F3C260-2031-45C5-A3F9-67E10ED64404.png
C- to C
C- is way to low for Mola. Its a fantastic answer to Garm, MMeta, and Draco in one while providing Wish and Knock Off for its fellow teammates. Regenerator means it doesn’t mind taking Banded U-Turns from Garm. Not much else to say, it does the same thing as last gen.

911FB981-9820-4192-9CE1-3D4D8658CA7E.png
C- to UR
Generation 8 is an episode of Everybody hates Terrakion. Outclassed by MMeta and Lando as an offensive rocker, not to mention is easily checked by said rockers. Slowbro regaining popularity, Duggy trapping everybody, Zyagrde returning, and stronger breakers entering the meta isn’t good for it at all. Nonetheless, I think it deserves to rest in the shadow realm.
 
I have a few thoughts and nominations I would like to share.

:gastrodon: - B- to B: I feel Gastrodon is slightly underrated at B- and would be better served in B rank. I have been using it as a soft pivot (though not sole answer) for Dracovish and it has performed that role well. It also serves as one of the better standalone checks to Genesect (particularly specially-oriented sets), as Genesect functionally never runs a grass move because it doesn't optimize its coverage on any common set. It also does a decent job at checking other common top tier threats such as Meta Metagross (lacking Zen, which anecdotally has been most of them), G-Darmanitan, Mega Scizor, Magearna, most Dragapult sets and honestly a ton of other pokemon depending on your set and EV spread. I've also found it to fit nicely on teams with Zygarde because it invites in Tangrowth and other grass types that check it, and can Toxic them on the switch, freeing up a moveslot for Zygarde. It is not perfect by any means and can be a bit passive in some matchups, but I think it is a highly underrated anti-meta pick that you should try if you've not built with it yet.

:Victini: - B to B+: I see this nomination has already been made but I want to throw my support behind it as well. Vic is another good anti-meta choice right now as a solid HDB check to most of the top tier threats at the moment, and it's a highly customizable pick that can lure what your team needs while preserving momentum and nuking whatever isn't a fire resist. I played about twenty games or so on ladder today and in my experience, most people do not know what to pivot into this thing with besides bulky waters, which get hammered by grass coverage that Vic actually can afford to run. It requires thoughtful play because obviously it doesn't have recovery but I think it's slept on at the moment, and should rise half a subrank.

:Dugtrio: - A to S: A Pokemon can be unhealthy and/or banworthy and not be S-rank in viability, or alternatively, a Pokemon can be S-rank in viability and not be unhealthy or banworthy. I question whether Dugtrio was ever S rank at any point in time ever, and it has been doing the same thing since ADV OU. Don't get it twisted, I absolutely think Arena Trap at the moment is very constraining on teambuilding and unhealthy for the meta, and I think it should be suspected/looked into very soon, but Dug does require intelligent play and has its flaws. People have their pitchforks out for Genesect atm but realistically the meta has a ton of offensive threats with a limited pool of checks/cores to handle them defensively, and almost all of them appreciate Dugtrio's ability to come in an remove those checks to limit their counterplay further. I think people asking for this to rise to S are making more of a claim about the meta right now than Dugtrio itself.

I might edit/revisit this at a later time since I have other nominations in mind but right now I'll leave it there.
 
While I think we did a pretty good job with the starting list of the Viability Rankings, there are obviously some flawed placements and I'll try to address the ones that should rise or drop (imo).

:dugtrio: A --> A+
Dugtrio is so incredibly centralizing and unhealthy rn, it's insane. It pairs so nice with so many Pokemon, consistently removing Pokemon such as Heatran, Toxapex, Chansey, Magearna and other ground weaks from games. The amount of support this gives, and how much prediction the opponent needs to do to get around this thing is insane. Should definitely rise.

:ditto: B --> B+ / A-
Insanely good glue rn. It's a nice 'catch-em-all' in the builder, making sure you don't get swept by stuff like Mega Blastoise, Kartana, Magearna or Volcarona. Will always shine in an offensive meta like this, and therefore should rise one or two subranks.

:slowbro: B --> B+ / A-
Amazing glue as well for many teams rn. Is able to take on Mega Metagross, Zygarde, Galarian Darmanitan and Mega Lopunny pretty consistently. Teleport is nice so it's not just a momentum drainer against stuff like Ash Greninja or Tapu Bulu. A solid Pokemon and deserves to rise.

:slowbro-mega: B- --> B
While being worse than its regular form, the extra defense boost it gains from mega evolving is really noticeable. Able to take hits better from Dracovish, Melmetal, Mega Mawile and Z-Move Garchomp/Landorus as well as the mons that regular Bro checks can be extremely valuable. Of course it loses Regen which is a big downside, but should still rise.

:gastrodon: B- --> B
Annoys quite some teams rn. Water immunity gives Dracovish a headache, and Specially Defensive sets are always nice to take on Pokemon like Ash Greninja, Heatran, or even Mega Blastoise of you're carrying Clear Smog. Pretty valuable and should rise for being a nice tank in a lot of matchups.

:suicune: C+ --> B-
While it's definitely not as good because of the insane amount of wallbreaking we have, SubCM can still annoy a fuckton of defensive / stall teams out there. It easily stalls a lot of PP from Pokemon like Pex, Tran, Aegi and Corvi while just spamming Scald. Immunities don't really matter when you outstall them anyways. Has a lot of potential still and should rise a Subrank.

:amoonguss: C --> C+
One of the only and consistent Mega Blastoise checks (Ice Beam has been falling off for Water moves on ladder to take on Clefable), takes on AshGren and Magearna as well. It's solid, move it up.

:rotom-heat: C --> C+
Cool breaker w Nasty against stuff like FerroPexCorvi. Obvs doesn't like Zygarde a lot, and its speed is a bit mediocre, but still solid enough to warrant a rise.

:skarmory: C --> C+
Underrated af. Stall is good rn and Skarmory is just a good Spiker that also can check stuff like Kartana, Mega Metagross and other strong physical attackers due to Counter. Shouldn't be down there with stuff like Mega Gallade and Hatterene.

:alomomola: C- --> C+ / B-
Insanely good 'mon rn and I have no idea why this is C- tbh. Not only limited to Stall, but also relatively splashable on balance or BO because of its ability to take on Dracovish (even in Rain), Galar Darm, Mega Metagross, Melmetal etc. Don't run Leftovers though, run Rocky Helmet. Helmet allows you to punish your opponent for attacking you, chipping the 'mons your supposed to check away and making it way more effective at dealing with them. Galar Darm can't just spam U-turn, Melmetal gets fucked if it goes for Double Iron Bash etc. Really good rn and should definitely rise.

:mantine: C- --> C
Relatively decent SpDef Defogger that annoys hazard setters like AshGren and Heatran while also having reliable recovery (which Fini doesn't have). Pretty inconsistent but can still find its way on some teams and should rise for that. HDB is nice for it.

:dragapult: A --> A-
Unaware Clef has been appearing more and more, which is just hindering Dragapult a lot. Above that, stuff like Scarf Galar Darm, Scarf Greninja, and physically defensive Mega Scizor are all common as well, which hinders Dragapults sweeping abilities. Can still put in a lot of work, but isn't as consistent as it was early on in the meta, thus it should be reflected by dropping it a bit.

:swampert-mega: A --> A-
After thinking about it, it should be in the same rank as Pelipper. I don't think Rain is A as a playstyle just yet, so I think A- for now works.

:dracovish: A- --> B+
Inconsistent af since Water immunities have been appearing a lot more, as well as hard water resists like (Mega)Bro, PhysDef Growth, Alo etc.

:tyranitar: :tyranitar-mega: A- --> B+
Dugtrio hurts a lot, and are outclassed as breakers. They're still good, but just don't have the consistency level of the Pokemon in A rank, and should drop.

:reuniclus: A- --> B+
Read Chazms post. (Stored Power good tho)

:hoopa-unbound: B --> B-
Slow, there are better breakers, offense is everywhere.

:cinderace: C+ --> C- / UR
This thing just isn't good. There is enough removal in the game to just not care about Court Change. Its not that strong, its coverage is pretty lacking, and just is really inconsistent. Gets trapped by Dugtrio as well, Zygarde says fuck you. It checks Kart and Gene ig but so do other Pokemon which put in more work than this thing.

:barraskewda: :terrakion: :jellicent: C- --> UR
Barraskewda only fits on Rain and Rain nearly ever has the room to put it on. Terrakion is trash. Jellicent is inconsistent, especially with Dracovish getting worse.

:venusaur: C+ --> C
:torkoal: C- --> C
Should be same rank. C rank is appropriate for now.

There are maybe some other things, like Galarian Darmanitan going to A+ and Kartana going to A, but I'm not sure about those. But the discussion so far has been nice to read and I'm hoping that'll continue!
 

Guardsweeper

Semper ad Meliora
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
:dugtrio: Dugtrio

I would be the first to acknowledge Dugtrio’s presence in the current metagame but I do not believe it is justifiable to judge Dugtrio as an S-rank threat. Dugtrio is a very effective enabler for several of the current metagame’s offensive powerhouses (Genesect, Mega Metagross, Darmanitan-Galar et cetera). This is a very powerful and unique tool in its arsenal and I do recognize the strain it puts during both teambuilding and the course of a battle depending on the matchup. However, it should be noted that Dugtrio is only able to pave the path for its teammates. This is where previous posts seem to misjudge Dugtrio’s viability, as they stress the potency of its teammates after Dugtrio has trapped their counters too much as an argument for it to rise to S. In my opinion, when we define Dugtrio’s viability, we should not put too much emphasis on the elevation of its teammate’s effectiveness due to its trapping support, as that ultimately falls under the viability of its teammates, even though the cause of that elevation is Dugtrio. Rather, we should put emphasis on how effectively Dugtrio supports its teammates, the scope of Pokemon it can trap or support and the relevance of its niche in the current metagame. Judging based on these points, I do not believe Dugtrio warrants an S-ranking.

Nevertheless, due to its aforementioned positives, I support a nomination to A+.
 
:dugtrio: Dugtrio

I would be the first to acknowledge Dugtrio’s presence in the current metagame but I do not believe it is justifiable to judge Dugtrio as an S-rank threat. Dugtrio is a very effective enabler for several of the current metagame’s offensive powerhouses (Genesect, Mega Metagross, Darmanitan-Galar et cetera). This is a very powerful and unique tool in its arsenal and I do recognize the strain it puts during both teambuilding and the course of a battle depending on the matchup. However, it should be noted that Dugtrio is only able to pave the path for its teammates. This is where previous posts seem to misjudge Dugtrio’s viability, as they stress the potency of its teammates after Dugtrio has trapped their counters too much as an argument for it to rise to S. In my opinion, when we define Dugtrio’s viability, we should not put too much emphasis on the elevation of its teammate’s effectiveness due to its trapping support, as that ultimately falls under the viability of its teammates, even though the cause of that elevation is Dugtrio. Rather, we should put emphasis on how effectively Dugtrio supports its teammates, the scope of Pokemon it can trap or support and the relevance of its niche in the current metagame. Judging based on these points, I do not believe Dugtrio warrants an S-ranking.

Nevertheless, due to its aforementioned positives, I support a nomination to A+.
I think the argument that we should rank Dugtrio based on its individual power is flawed and doesn't really capture what viability rankings are about. This is a bring 6 meta, not 1v1; we rank other support mons (like, say, anything with stealth rock or defog) highly specifically because they extremely good at aiding other team members. Dugtrio regularly wins games by securing important pick offs, and the fact that it isn't the sweeper that's able to 1v4 at the end of the game because its checks are removed shouldn't obscure the fact that the game wouldn't have been won otherwise.

To me, this argument should only really apply to pokemon locked to specific partners (notably, weather setters and abusers). It makes sense that Pelipper's viability is held back by the teambuilding and gameplay constraints it brings about - the fact that you need (usually) Mega-Swampert both on your team and not knocked out for Pelipper to do anything limits how far up the list it can go. But this simply isn't the case for Dugtrio - it doesn't require any specific partner. Both offense and stall teams love having important checks removed, and both benefit from the thread Dugtrio applies of losing an essential pokemon to any wrong predictions, regardless of what those essential pokemon are or what Duggy is paving the way for.

Tl;dr: Dugtrio is extremely good at further a team's win condition, the fact that it does so by paving the way for other teammates shouldn't prevent it from being S tier.
 
My more elaborated thoughts.

A Rank:


A

:blastoise-mega: Blastoise-Mega A-->S this thing is the most centralizing mega in the metagame by a large margin and is much more threatening than Mega Metagross, the other Mega in S tier.
:dugtrio: Dugtrio A-->S I don't get the argument on judging a Pokemon based on its own power (although it would explain a lot of the ranking decisions here). Dugtrio on his own is an absolutely garbage pokemon. But he has never been about strength; he has been about disabling the most key mechanic in Pokemon: switching. Thats why any Pokemon that gets Arena Trap gets use (Trapinch), and thats why the advantage you have by putting him on your team is tremendous. He enables so many broken pokemon and their existences in this meta are entirely because of Dugtrio.
:latias-mega: Latias-Mega A-->B+ Latias really isn't on the level that these other mons are. Shes good but shes threatened by a lot of the meta picks, and she still really has no reliable answer to Toxic, making her fucked over by the extremely common SubToxic Aegislash rn.
:mawile-mega: Mawile-Mega A-->B- Why this mon is so high baffles me. I guess someone on the council has a TR team because thats just about the only use you can get out of Maw in this day and age. Super slow, poor bulk, and a predictable movepool hurt this mon's viability.
:swampert-mega: Swampert-Mega A-->A- The sheer amount of bulky grasses in the tier to stop Zy nerf Swampert's breaking power. Also, Pelipper is In A- and Swampert is enabled by Pelipper so it only makes sense that Swampert is there.

A-

:celesteela: Celesteela A- --> B+ No more Airstream ruins Cel's offensive presence, and a lack of direct recovery, as well as said indirect recovery being gimped by the number of grass types, warrants a drop imo.
:garchomp: Garchomp A- ---> B I really see zero reason to use this Pokemon while Zygarde exists. Swords Dance + Rockium Z is alright but theres a lot of mons who will survive that, and Garchomp's speed tier is unimpressive in this meta.
:medicham-mega: Medicham-Mega A- ---> B+ Why use Mega Medicham when there's faster, deadlier and more versatile AoA (lop and meta). The increasing number of physical walls in the tier to check vish that also coincidentally hard wall cham hurt Medicham's scariness (slowbro, alomomola).
:reuniclus: Reuniclus A- --> B+ Theres no denying that Reuniclus is one of the better wincons in the meta rn, but tbh due to his lack of intrinsic physical bulk outside of soft checking zygarde. and the realization that he's hard walled by every single dark type that exists hurts, mandating support. I dont think A- is low enough for a mon that is completely invalidated by an entire type.
:tyranitar-mega: Tyranitar-Mega A- --> B This meta has no place for slow dugtrio bait. He's not bad by any stretch, but being weak to little every single offensive threat in the tier (im not kidding, go to the top of the tier list, count how many of the offensive mons in S rank to A- rank don't have kill pressure on mega ttar) doesnt make him very good rn. When dracovish gets sand rush, however, he's back with a vengeance.

B Rank:

B+


:diancie-mega: Diancie-Mega B+ ---> C- this point is where I'm convinced someone on the council has some bias. Diancie Mega is absolutely horrible right now. Never mind the easily dodgeable speed tier, never mind the unimpressive bulk and shitty defensive typing, never mind the vapid, hilariously one-dimensional movepool. this meta is filled with mons that can OHKO Diancie so easily. Most of Mega Diancie's sets rely on a turn of setup - rock polish, calm mind, stealth rock - and this meta has way too many steels and waters for this to happen. Mega Diancie is liable to get yeeted on by Aegislash, Mega Scizor, Mega Metagross, Dugtrio, Genesect, Darmanitan, Ferrothorn, Melmetal, Corviknight, the list goes on. She has basically no coverage and dies to most attacks and is hard to fit on teams due to the opportunity cost- either use this sand-reliant shitty metagross bait or use an unwallable AoA steel type chad. Hm.

B

:charizard-mega-y: Charizard-Mega-Y B --> B- Let's see, a predictable AoA mon with an unmitigatble Sr weakness, poor bulk, and a weak speed tier, as well as being hard walled by Toxapex who is on almost every single team at this point. He hits harder than his competition and has drought, but as far as offensive fire types go, rotom-fire, volcarona, ScarfTran and Blace have him beat.
:ditto: Ditto B --> A Despite dynamax being banned, this meta is so blatantly hyper offensive that ditto remains a staple on many teams since hes the only reliable countersweep.
:grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl B --> A Literally the premiere screens setter on the most common and most centralizing playstyle, as well as a decent wincon and annoying support in his own right. He doesnt belong on the same level as Mega Charizard Y and Hoopa Unbound.
:hoopa-unbound: Hoopa-Unbound B --> C+ Oh man how the mighty have fallen. For starters, his status as "the wallbreaker with no counter" is no longer unique because almost every single wallbreaker in nat dex has no counters. So where does that leave him? Right. Terrible speed thats way too high for TR and useless for everything else, mediocre bulk made worse by horrible typing and especially vulnerable to volt turn and its users, hi Genesect. This thing even has trouble killing the stuff it wants to kill because its so fucking slow. Mega Metagross outspeeds and OHKO's. Genesect Ohkod before fire punch, and Zygarde just laughs.
:slowbro: Slowbro B --> A- This mon is pretty great. Teleport is excellent for pivoting, ample recovery, good bulk, and a check to vish while also being an exemplary wall in general.



C Rank:

C+

:azumarill: Azumarill C+ --> UR This mon is pretty bad. AV sets dont hit hard at all, and Band outside of TR is outclassed by the slew of wallbreakers we have rn. Belly Drum only works in rain, and even then a +6 Aqua Jet in Rain is quite weak to any of the physically defensive grass or water types the enemy is pretty much guaranteed to have too. As for CB in TR, he doesnt hit hard and outside of checking gren doesnt match the raw power that Mel and Maw bring.
:cinderace: Cinderace C+ to UR This mon is bad. Court Change is predictable, and Cinderace isnt worth enough to be viable without. Walled by the various water types in the tier and Zygarde.
:garchomp-mega: Garchomp-Mega C+ to C- --> Base 92 speed single handedly kills this mon. Swords Dance sets are easy to outspeed. Tangrowth and Slowbro wall the fuck out of him, and mixed sets dont really do much. Sand Force isnt useful in most situations. Too slow.
:Pinsir-mega: Pinsir-Mega C+ to UR This mon is so fragile that it basically requires a whole team to be built around it. And for what? A rather slow wallbreaker thats unable to harm Corviknight and is vulnerable to every single relevant scarfer.


C

:amoonguss: Amoonguss C to B AV Amoonguss is one of our best defensive checks to Mega Blastoise at the moment, and as a Pokemon he is very similar to Tangrowth, so I'm not sure what the hell he is doing down here ranked lower than mega garchomp and mega diancie and cinderace. Clear Smog, fantastic typing giving spikes absorption and leech seed immunity, one of the only good users of spore, soft checks Heatran and gren, hard counters Ferro, as well as the utility he has. A good check to Magearna and Rain too. This is a crime that he is so low.
:corsola-galar: Corsola-Galar C to C+ Corsola-Galar may not be the hot shit anymore but shes still a great lead that is absolute hell for any physical breaker.
:ribombee: Ribombee C to B+ wtf? Literally like the best sticky webs user in the game as well as being absolute cancer to play against. Immune to hax, high speed tier, u-turn, stun spore, Jesus Christ it angers me just thinking about her.

C-

:alomomola: Alomomola C- to B- A casual check to Vish that also throws around massive wishes. Also has ample utility. She is one of the many defensive answers to Vish and Metagross and provides utility and use even after absorbing those fishious rends.
:mantine: Mantine C- to C A defogger with great defensive typing, checks Heatran, greninja, and dracovish, has water absorb, and haze for mega blastoise? And on top of this insane special defense and reliable recovery? Mantine simply has too many valuable assets to be at C-.
:terrakion: Terrakion C- to UR Terrakion has been completely useless for over half a decade. I dont know how he was even considered for a spot on the list.

Thats about my opinion at first glance. Overall decent list, there's some bias (Reuniclus being ranked so high. you know who you are) but of course everything is biased so whatever. Odd how some bad pokemon are ranked higher (diancie) over mons that are more viable (amoonguss, alomomola, mantine). And some pokemon are absent from the list entirely (excadrill, porygon2, Stakataka, ninetales-alola) despite them having more defined niches then fucking terrakion and diancie-mega. Jfc I'm actually rofl'ing rn at Diancie-Mega being B+. Like Bullet Punch. at least two meta Pokemon have it and use it often. Also rain exists. Diancie cant even ko Ferro with hp fire lmao. And terrakion.

But joking aside good job on the list especially the upper echelons. I agree with most of the high ranks. Its just the lower ranks that need a bit more polishing. But like I said otherwise good job.
 
Responding to some noms

:slowbro: to A-
:slowbro-mega: to B/B+
Agree

Yeah yeah we’ve seen these two make huge leaps in viability. Slowbro is one of the defining Regenerator pivots in the meta right now, because it walls MMeta, Zygarde, Heatran, GDarm and Scarf Vish. The fact that it has Teleport as well as the ability to live nearly any physical hit while coming back decently healthy is such a boon for Bulky Offense. MegaBro trades Regenerator to deal with GDarm and Vish better, but the fact that it takes a mega slot, isn’t able to hold an item and is more likely to Teleport or Slack Off than attack annoys me. Still deserves a raise.

:tapu-fini: to B+
:mantine: to C+
Agree

By contrast, Fini seems much more outclassed as a fat Water. In fact, its starting to seem like Mantine is taking its role now. Mantine is a reliable Rain answer, AshGren answer, Vish answer, Volc check, ZardY check not susceptible to Dugtrio, has Roost and is a potent Defogger. Meanwhile, Fini can’t check Vish and is way more susceptible to being worn down into the range where MToise and GDarm overrun it. Your brief status immunity is great but if Rocks are up, Defog is a priority and then you lose Terrain.

:grimmsnarl: to A
Disagree

Ok so what’s this thing’s niche outside of setting Screens? If it were anything else, I’d say rise it up. However, even with MToise in the tier, Screens is not the dominant playstyle, and even if it were, we would be raising MToise (which I also disagree with), not Grimmsnarl. Unless you come to me with some SpDef Bulk Up RestTalk heat, this isn’t going above B.

:dracovish: to B+
Agree

Both Water resists and Water immunities are more common in this meta. Band is slow as fuck and mandates some form of free entry, and is probably getting one kill best case scenario. Scarf is a shit tier Scarfer compared to the likes of Lando, Kart and Darm, and breaks even worse outside of Rain. It runs all over Heatran and Mash-spamming Metagross, though.

:corviknight: to A
Agree

Tier’s best Defogger on par with Torn-T. Although it isn’t as fast and doesn’t keep the strong offensive presence + Defog, it makes up for it with its ability to shrug off hits with ease and outstall Stealth Rock PP. My only issue is its a fogger that can be run over by Magnezone and Heatran, but that’s a small price to pay, and its not like Torn wasn’t just U-turning on those guys anyway.

:terrakion: :jellicent: :barraskewda: to UR
Agree

These suck or are just outclassed. I don’t see a niche for any of these that isn’t done better by Ttar, a fat Water or Mega Swampert.

:cinderace: to C-
Agree

I say this one with heavy heart, but Cinderace has no niche that isn’t filled by, like MegaZardX. Court Change is cool, but it means you conserve Rocks or its just a useless or DETRIMENTAL move to use. The only reason I want to see this ranked is because it abuses Ferro spiking snd can U-turn to Duggy on Pex and Ttar. Other than that, *sniff* this is useless. I just have to wait until Libero is released, though, along with new move tutors.

:rotom-heat: to B-/B
Agree

On the other hand, this is great. NP + 2Attacks + Will-O-Wisp becomes good utility both offensively and defensively, although being weak to TArrows sucks. Also serves as a suitable check to GDarm, Sucker-less MMaw and the rarer LO Clef.

:tapu-bulu: to B+
Disagree

Ok so this is one the more consistent VishGren answers in the tier with the physdef sd set. Yeah sure it lets in Corv for free but you can pair it with Zone or Tran and you’ll be fine. Also, the halved Earthquake damage is huge for some mons, think like Melmetal and Aegislash and Metagross. These now all have no issue stomaching EQs and can take on Bulu’s checks quite (BoltBeam Melm and Meta do it very well). Please don’t drop this. All the Tapus being B+ should be fine tbh.

Ok yeah, quite a long post. But there was a lot I wanted to throw my support for. Any of the noms I didn’t mention are ones I abstain from, aside from Victini. Heavy-Duty Boots Victini is not on par with the actually good Band/Scarf sets that are super anti-meta right now. Like, look at how many Steels and GDarms infest the tier right now. However, its susceptible to Dugtrio. Good day.
 
:volcanion: to b/b+

This mon is pretty good answear to a lot of top threats. Thanks to heavy boots, it can come on the most common spikes/stealth rock setters Ferrothorn and Heatran and threaten them with one of two stabs. He is 4 times resistant to fire and ice and immune to water which makes him a good check to banded Dracovish and Darmanitan-Galar. Sludge bomb one shots most variants of 3 tapu expect Tapu fini. And even then, with buffed defog you can remove there psychic terrain when they try to switch into you which also removes hazards. Those are major strenghts. And he can survive plus one quiver dance volcarona and kill her around 90% health (for some reason I have found myself in a lot of these situations). Now he is not perfect. He hates status (tho he can absorb burns), especially poison, being week to earthquake and electric attacks in no good (althrough he can punish most of the users here with good predictio and since his moves either have chance to burn or poison so even bad prediction can bring some benefits), hates knock off because it removes heavy boots, has no recovory (so I recommend some type of healers). And you let Toxapex for free expect with a burn( but those really are not that much of problem to that thing). So all In all he is probably more of a B tire then B+ but way above of other pokemon in B-.

:cinderace: to C-/Ur
Its just so useless in most situation. The reason he works in Gen 8 ou because he can spam U-turn non stop because he threatens most of his checks with Pyro Ball chip. Here, with hire BST and more pokemon that can check him and out speed him, he seems like blank spot when I see him on enemy team. Lets wait for him to get Libero. Then Maybe he can be C/B-. And court change? Just set up your own hazards. But it could be good stall breaker when it gets libero.

:dugtrio: Same spot for now.
Yeah, he probably needs a ban. Now there are not a lot of thinks he can really come in so he really relies on U-turn. And there is not a lot of things he can really kill in one turn and he can be killed pretty easily by a lot of things if he has focus stash but takes chip from hazards. And bands are not really way to go with him. But at same time, most teems save him for mid game where he can easily pick of not even that low health targets, and if you have pokemon that he can easily kill, may god help you because you can never use it to check something that that dugtrio protect (usually Genesect). I think we really need to make decision now. Especially since I do not think that things changed that much with gen 8 for little duggy. He still goes how he always did.
 
Last edited:

Zneon

formerly f is for frens
is a Live Chat Contributor
My views on a few mons rn:


A -> A+

Dugtrio is the first Pokemon that I think of in the tier that should rise, it basically enables so many offensive mons by getting rid of their checks/counters to the point where it is nigh impossible to deal with them. This thing can be used for any kind of team archetype and has a massive strain on teambuilding at the moment, which is perfect for A+.


A- -> B

Celesteela is just mediocre in my opinion and shouldn't be in the A ranks. I find it overshadowed by most other steel types, especially Corv and Skarm. Corviknight has mixed bulk as well but much more utility with U-turn, Defog and Taunt, and Skarmory for its bulk, access to hazards, and phazing abilities, so it has a defined niche on stall. What does Celesteela have? Not much, this Pokemon is entirely lacks a defined niche for itself in comparison to the other steel types and the 2 birds I've just mentioned and thus there is little reason to use it over them.


C+ -> UR

This Pokemon is just flat out awful in this metagame. Cinderace has little to no niche whatsoever that is actually useful in this metagame. HDB Court Change is much worse here than it is SS OU because there is much more hazard removal and with a meta this big there are more things that can come in and take advantage of its poor utility and bad typing, Slowbro, Greninja, Tornadus-T, Toxapex, Zygarde and especially Dugtrio can either wall it out, kill it reliably, or in Zygarde's case, use it as setup fodder or a free Substitute, Glare or Toxic. Cinderace has almost nothing that differentiates it from other Fire-types or hazard control apart from cheesing teams that have screens, and thus shouldn't be ranked whatsoever.



B -> B+/A-

This is a great Pokemon. Slowbro is an amazing defensive glue to balance and bulky offence cores, its ability to check dangerous threats such as G-Darm, Vish, M-Meta and Zygarde makes it such an amazing pivot and useful in many situations, G-Darm barely misses the 2HKO on max Physdef Slowbro and can just Slack it off or just switch out and regen the damage away, its ability to deal with the most dangerous threats in S-A- make it really good in the metagame in my eyes. So it's a A- for me, potentially higher in the future.




C -> C+

Despite being worse as a pivot than Slowbro, I think Amoonguss is pretty underrated right now and should warrant a rise. Great check to Kart, Bulu, MLop and Vish on PhyDef sets, and Ice Beam from a 2+ Mega Blastoise does under 80% max in which Amoonguss can threaten an OHKO after rocks with Drain. Spore has such good utility, and putting something to sleep can do so much for a team, it does lack recovery yes, but it still works wonders as a pivot because of of its bulk, typing and just the amazing utility of Spore which is why I think should be a little higher.
 
Last edited:
:Medicham-Mega: to B+/B

This is too slow and frail for the meta. Still decent at killing Steels and shit, but you're better off running Mega Lopunny right now, who's faster, a bit bulkier, and provides a much better offense matchup thanks to STAB priority.


:Celesteela: to B/B-

There's hardly any reason to run this when both Corviknight and Skarmory have much better utility and/or bulk than this. Corviknight also has the benefit of being a far more reliable check to stuff like Grass and Psychic Spam(while uncommon, but that's a bit besides the point) because it has reliable recovery in Roost and can pivot out of Magnezone to avoid trapping.

:Corviknight: to A

This is one of the two best defensive Defoggers rn, repeatedly switching in and recovering with Roost on top of Pressuring hazard setters if you're playing the long game against stuff like stall and balance. Some of the other points have already been mentioned above so I won't restate here.

:Cinderace: :Terrakion: :Jellicent: to UR

Lol why were these ranked in the first place?(not trying to be rude, just genuinely surprised) Neither of these do their job that good in the first place (in NatDex OU at least) and there are just better wallbreakers, hazard setters/removers, as well as Vish checks that can actually deal with the rest of the meta.

:Tapu Lele: :Tapu Fini: to B+

These two struggle a lot in a steel-heavy meta. Lele can't really dent stall thanks to Duggy, it dies to a multitude of physical breakers like Darm-G before being able to do any real breaking of its own, and it's way too slow to pressure offensive teams. Fini can't repeatedly check stuff because of its lack of recovery, Defogs its own terrain away(which severely hampers its niche), can't check Vish that well, and its Fairy-typing means it can't check any Steel-types.

:Alomomola: to B-

This is an amazing bulky water rn for any team that obviously isn't hyper offense, providing immense utility such as checking a large majority of the physical metagame thanks to pure Water-typing, Scald and/or Toxic, Knock Off support, and passing fat Wishes to teammates like Heatran that appreciate having much more staying power. It also laughs off Fishious Rend from Scarf Vish even in Rain(which Alomomola has a good matchup against anyways) and utilizes Regenerator to keep healthy which makes up for its overall passivity(as mentioned before, make sure you run Rocky Helmet, especially on more offensive teams in order to better check and actually pressure stuff).
It's not on the same level as Slowbro, but it's still very decent.
 
:volcanion: to b/b+

This mon is pretty good answear to a lot of top threats. Thanks to heavy boots, it can come on the most common spikes/stealth rock setters Ferrothorn and Heatran and threaten them with one of two stabs. He is 4 times resistant to fire and ice and immune to water which makes him a good check to banded Dracovish and Darmanitan-Galar. Sludge bomb one shots most variants of 3 tapu expect Tapu fini. And even then, with buffed defog you can remove there psychic terrain when they try to switch into you which also removes hazards. Those are major strenghts. And he can survive plus one quiver dance volcarona and kill her around 90% health (for some reason I have found myself in a lot of these situations). Now he is not perfect. He hates status (tho he can absorb burns), especially poison, being week to earthquake and electric attacks in no good (althrough he can punish most of the users here with good predictio and since his moves either have chance to burn or poison so even bad prediction can bring some benefits), hates knock off because it removes heavy boots, has no recovory (so I recommend some type of healers). And you let Toxapex for free expect with a burn( but those really are not that much of problem to that thing). So all In all he is probably more of a B tire then B+ but way above of other pokemon in B-.

:cinderace: to C-/Ur
Its just so useless in most situation. The reason he works in Gen 8 ou because he can spam U-turn non stop because he threatens most of his checks with Pyro Ball chip. Here, with hire BST and more pokemon that can check him and out speed him, he seems like blank spot when I see him on enemy team. Lets wait for him to get Libero. Then Maybe he can be C/B-. And court change? Just set up your own hazards. But it could be good stall breaker when it gets libero.

:dugtrio: Same spot for now.
Yeah, he probably needs a ban. Now there are not a lot of thinks he can really come in so he really relies on U-turn. And there is not a lot of things he can really kill in one turn and he can be killed pretty easily by a lot of things if he has focus stash but takes chip from hazards. And bands are not really way to go with him. But at same time, most teems save him for mid game where he can easily pick of not even that low health targets, and if you have pokemon that he can easily kill, may god help you because you can never use it to check something that that dugtrio protect (usually Genesect). I think we really need to make decision now. Especially since I do not think that things changed that much with gen 8 for little duggy. He still goes how he always did.
In response to your take on Grimmsnarl's placement, I'd say that while it's best niche is indeed simply dual screens, I'd argue that it is the best screens setter the game has ever had by a long shot. With Grimmsnarl around, screens aren't just something certain HO teams use to make their lives easier, it is almost to be as expected as staples like stealth rock when used on offense.
The fact that it checks many powerful dragon and dark types merely by existing is icing on the viability cake.
Make no mistake it is depressing seeing my boy Grimm get relegated to the role of "world's greatest Meowstic" when he should be breaking spirits, but hey bulk up isnt a COMPLETELY trash option.
 

Jordy

is a Top Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Discord Leader
I was asked to post this here, so here it is I guess.

To preface this post, I've highlighted Pokemon that should rise green and Pokemon that should drop red. Of course, this is all based on my own opinion.

Another thing to note is that I'm not going to talk about every single nomination. I'll just talk about the ones I feel are most controversial or may need some explaining. I also merged the C rank into one because I can't be bothered to figure out the distinction between C+, C, and C-; I frankly don't think its necessary to divide C into subranks.

S Rank:
:genesect:Genesect
:metagross-mega:Mega Metagross
:zygarde:Zygarde

A Rank:
A+
:aegislash:Aegislash
:heatran:Heatran
:kartana:Kartana
:landorus-therian:Landorus-T
:tangrowth:Tangrowth
:toxapex:Toxapex

A
:blastoise-mega:Mega Blastoise
:clefable:Clefable
:corviknight:Corviknight

:darmanitan-galar:Galarian Darmanitan
:dragapult:Dragapult
:ferrothorn:Ferrothorn
:greninja-ash:Ash-Greninja
:lopunny-mega:Mega Lopunny
:tapu-fini:Tapu Fini
:tornadus-therian:Tornadus-T
:volcarona:Volcarona

A-
:chansey:Chansey
:ditto:Ditto
:greninja:Greninja
:latias-mega:Mega Latias

:magnezone:Magnezone
:medicham-mega:Mega Medicham
:slowbro:Slowbro
:slowbro-mega:Mega Slowbro
:mew:Mew
:tyranitar:Tyranitar
:tyranitar-mega:Mega Tyranitar
:zapdos:Zapdos

B Rank:
B+
:dracovish:Dracovish
:garchomp:Garchomp
:gliscor:Gliscor
:hydreigon:Hydreigon
:latios-mega:Mega Latios
:magearna:Magearna
:pelipper:Pelipper
:reuniclus:Reuniclus

:rotom-heat:Rotom-H

:rotom-wash:Rotom-W
:scizor-mega:Mega Scizor

:serperior:Serperior
:swampert-mega:Mega Swampert
:tapu-lele:Tapu Lele

B
:alakazam-mega:Mega Alakazam
:bisharp:Bisharp
:charizard-mega-x:Mega Charizard X
:gastrodon:Gastrodon

:grimmsnarl:Grimmsnarl
:hawlucha:Hawlucha
:kommo-o:Kommo-o

:kyurem:Kyurem
:mawile-mega:Mega Mawile
:melmetal:Melmetal
:sableye-mega:Mega Sableye

:seismitoad:Seismitoad
:tapu-bulu:Tapu Bulu

:victini:Victini
:volcanion:Volcanion

B-
:alomomola:Alomomola
:blacephalon:Blacephalon

:gengar:Gengar
:gyarados:Gyarados
:gyarados-mega:Mega Gyarados
:hippowdon:Hippowdon
:hoopa-unbound:Hoopa-U
:jirachi:Jirachi
:manaphy:Manaphy
:venusaur-mega:Mega Venusaur
:weavile:Weavile

C Rank:
C
:aggron-mega:Mega Aggron
:amoonguss:Amoonguss
:azumarill:Azumarill
:crawdaunt:Crawdaunt
:dracozolt:Dracozolt
:mandibuzz:Mandibuzz
:mantine:Mantine
:mimikyu:Mimikyu
:moltres:Moltres
:skarmory:Skarmory
:suicune:Suicune
:torkoal:Torkoal
:venusaur:Venusaur


:tapu-koko:
As you may have noticed, Tapu Koko is completely missing. While it is ranked rather high right now, I believe that this was frankly an error and should never have happened. It does not have a distinct niche and really struggles with the current metagame in general. Tapu Koko's a relatively mediocre wallbreaker because of the prominence of Tangrowth and Ferrothorn, as well as Electric-immune Pokemon such as Zygarde. If we purely look at its role as an offensive pivot, it's generally outclassed by Dragapult. While the fact that it has access to Roost and resists Flying are appealing on paper, no team is realistically going to need it.

:diancie-mega:
Similarly to Tapu Koko, Mega Diancie was ranked way too high and also struggles to distinguish itself from other Pokemon and struggles with the current metagame in general as well. Mega Diancie has way too many issues with the abundance of Steel-types and other Pokemon such as Tangrowth and Tapu Fini to be used at all right now.

The recent Arena Trap ban may have helped both Tapu Koko and Mega Diancie, but it's really not enough to blow life into either of them.

:celesteela:
Celesteela's also missing. If you ever want to use Celesteela, reconsider and use Corviknight instead.

:slowbro::slowbro-mega:
As many others have stated, Slowbro and Mega Slowbro are amazing in the current metagame. I don't really feel like reiterating what's already been said but I'd like to briefly touch on the general notion that Mega Slowbro's easier to wear down than Slowbro. This argument is kind of moot because you often don't want to mega evolve until late-game to get the most out of Regenerator. I don't think the opportunity cost of using your mega slot on Mega Slowbro is enough to warrant a gap in ranks between the two.

:pelipper::swampert-mega:
Rain really isn't that great right now. Solid Water-resistant Pokemon like Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, Tapu Fini, Slowbro, and Mega Slowbro are way too common to rank Pelipper and Mega Swampert in the upper echelons of the viability rankings. Ditto is another major roadblock rain has to deal with.

:rotom-heat:
I realize that a rise from C to B+ is very drastic, but Rotom-H is honestly really good and definitely warrants it. Rotom-H sports incredible defensive utility, being one of the very few good checks to Genesect, while also providing teams with a solid check to Pokemon such as Tornadus-T, Corviknight, and Clefable. On top of that, it is often genuinely hard to deal with for bulkier builds which rely on Pokemon like Zygarde and Tapu Fini to check Fire-type Pokemon.

:mawile-mega::melmetal:
I realize dropping both Mega Mawile and Melmetal to B is very drastic, but they're really not all that great right now. Mega Metagross and Genesect give them some massive competition in this metagame. On top of that, they can't switch into play very reliably and can be forced out quickly due to how slow they are. Mega Mawile may have access to Sucker Punch, but it still has to deal with Zygarde and many faster Dark-resistant Pokemon.
 
Last edited:
TFW people restate your exact opinions and get 8x the likes while you get angry reactions without any reasoning

Anyways

:volcanion: to C+
The Dracovish meta is winding down and as a non Volcanion is outclassed in most respects. His dual STAB is resisted by the large amount of water types in the tier. As a fire wallbreaker Volcarona and Blacephalon and Heatran are better, and as a water wallbreaker Vish and Ash Gren and Mega Blastoise are better. Despite having Water Absorb he has no straightforward way to deal with most water types which is why you see these weird physically defensive sets. Obviously weakness to SR and no recovery as well as being slow as hell don't make matters better, not to mention a weak offensive movepool. He has defog but for a mon with such weak defensive typing and no recovery hes surprisingly frail and I wouldn't recommend using him as your only defogger.

:latios-mega: to C+
I don't really see anyone use him, and his Mixed Sets (I barely consider them Mixed Sets anyway they're more or less AoA with EQ and a Timid Nature) really aren't that effective when they are used. He loses to a lot of stuff right now like Aegislash and Tyranitar, etc. He lacks the defensive presence that Latias has that makes her appealing and he is outdamaged in most aspects by other mons. There are stronger special nukes. There are more splashable offensive dragons. That said; he remains an efficient cleaner and Sp.Attacker that reliably beats Tran, has decent bulk and recovery (this is what sets him apart from pult mainly) and does quite well against so I think C+ is good.

:thundurus-therian: to C-
I cannot deny TT's wallbreaking potential in a watery meta but theres too many factors holding him back. He was actually alright when we had Max Airstream to patch up his mediocre speed tier of 101 but now that its gone, he has to rely on Double Dance to sweep. His movepool is lacking and while he has an interesting niche in countering VoltTurn he's threatened by both Darm and Gene anyways. Heavily outclassed by Tapu Koko who has a much much much better speed tier and utility.

:kartana: to A-
Has a lot more checks these days and overall isnt nearly as problematic as he was before the dyna ban. Zapdos, Moltres, Volcarona, Tangrowth, etc. After Swords Dance he is hard to wall but he cant boost his speed anymore and lots of things outspeed and threaten to OHKO him.

I was asked to post this here, so here it is I guess.

To preface this post, I've highlighted Pokemon that should rise green and Pokemon that should drop red. Of course, this is all based on my own opinion.

Another thing to note is that I'm not going to talk about every single nomination. I'll just talk about the ones I feel are most controversial or may need some explaining. I also merged the C rank into one because I can't be bothered to figure out the distinction between C+, C, and C-; I frankly don't think its necessary to divide C into subranks.

S Rank:
:genesect:Genesect
:metagross-mega:Mega Metagross
:zygarde:Zygarde

A Rank:
A+
:aegislash:Aegislash
:heatran:Heatran
:kartana:Kartana
:landorus-therian:Landorus-T
:tangrowth:Tangrowth
:toxapex:Toxapex

A
:blastoise-mega:Mega Blastoise
:clefable:Clefable
:corviknight:Corviknight

:darmanitan-galar:Galarian Darmanitan
:dragapult:Dragapult
:ferrothorn:Ferrothorn
:greninja-ash:Ash-Greninja
:lopunny-mega:Mega Lopunny
:tapu-fini:Tapu Fini
:tornadus-therian:Tornadus-T
:volcarona:Volcarona

A-
:chansey:Chansey
:ditto:Ditto
:greninja:Greninja
:latias-mega:Mega Latias

:magnezone:Magnezone
:medicham-mega:Mega Medicham
:slowbro:Slowbro
:slowbro-mega:Mega Slowbro
:mew:Mew
:tyranitar:Tyranitar
:tyranitar-mega:Mega Tyranitar
:zapdos:Zapdos

B Rank:
B+
:dracovish:Dracovish
:garchomp:Garchomp
:gliscor:Gliscor
:hydreigon:Hydreigon
:latios-mega:Mega Latios
:magearna:Magearna
:pelipper:Pelipper
:reuniclus:Reuniclus

:rotom-heat:Rotom-H

:rotom-wash:Rotom-W
:scizor-mega:Mega Scizor

:serperior:Serperior
:swampert-mega:Mega Swampert
:tapu-lele:Tapu Lele

B
:alakazam-mega:Mega Alakazam
:bisharp:Bisharp
:charizard-mega-x:Mega Charizard X
:gastrodon:Gastrodon

:grimmsnarl:Grimmsnarl
:hawlucha:Hawlucha
:kommo-o:Kommo-o

:kyurem:Kyurem
:mawile-mega:Mega Mawile
:melmetal:Melmetal
:sableye-mega:Mega Sableye

:seismitoad:Seismitoad
:tapu-bulu:Tapu Bulu

:victini:Victini
:volcanion:Volcanion

B-
:alomomola:Alomomola
:blacephalon:Blacephalon

:gengar:Gengar
:gyarados:Gyarados
:gyarados-mega:Mega Gyarados
:hippowdon:Hippowdon
:hoopa-unbound:Hoopa-U
:jirachi:Jirachi
:manaphy:Manaphy
:venusaur-mega:Mega Venusaur
:weavile:Weavile

C Rank:
C
:aggron-mega:Mega Aggron
:amoonguss:Amoonguss
:azumarill:Azumarill
:crawdaunt:Crawdaunt
:dracozolt:Dracozolt
:mandibuzz:Mandibuzz
:mantine:Mantine
:mimikyu:Mimikyu
:moltres:Moltres
:skarmory:Skarmory
:suicune:Suicune
:torkoal:Torkoal
:venusaur:Venusaur
Koko has one minor niche over Dragapult, which is being an offensive pivot that enables Hawlucha, as well as being one of the few scarfers that outspeeds Mega Blastoise at +2. He also is splashable in VoltTurn, which is popular right now.
 
Last edited:
:heatran:
A -> A+

Not S tier yet but right now Heatran is becoming a rising star due to the Arena Trap ban. SpD sets are very consistent Stealth Rockers thanks to how it annoying it is for top threats like Genesect. Its ability to easily spread Toxic to pressure Slowbro and Zygarde is very good at keeping up the pressure on those kind of teams. Z move sets have also seemed to have picked up, with Grassium in particular luring bulky waters like Slowbro for huge threats like Mega Metagross and Dracovish.

:rotom-heat:
C -> A-

I know this a huge jump but Rotom-H is has proven to be one of the most useful pivots in the metagame because it checks Genesect and Darm-G. But recently a Nasty Plot wallbreaker set has rose to prominence. This set is great because it can break both Bulky Grasses and Bulky Waters. This set also has a flexible last moveslot. HP Ice to hit Zygarde and so you can kill Landorus-T without losing your boost. Pain Split lets it greatly annoy Chansey and gives it some form of Recovery. Finally Defog can be used if don't have room to fit it on a teammate.

:magnezone:
A- -> A

The scarf set basically forces Genesect to always U-turn. This is very good because it means you can actually let something like Dragapult stay in without being Ice Beamed or else it just get trapped. Magnezone is also annoying for Kartana and Mega Scizor which are quite good atm.

:landorus-therian:
A+ -> A

I feel weird for doing this but Landorus-T is simply not as effective as it once was. It is heavily threaten by the rise in Slowbro and bulky grasses making it reliant on Flyium to break them. It also isn't that consistent at checking Mega Metagross and Zygarde because of its lack of real recovery. Scarf sets suffer from competition from Genesect and Darm-G. I think it has too many issue to be A+ imo.

:toxapex:
A+ -> A or A-

Seems like people prefer using Slowbro atm because of its ability to check Mega Metagross. Toxapex inability to check it and Dracovish makes it a lot harder to build with. Still a fine defensive mon but not really A+ material. I should also mention that the rise of Heatran has not done it any favors.

Removing C- and C+

After thinking about it for a bit, I think this a good idea. In my opinion the C rank means "niche" or "Needs to be built around." I don't think you need to have 3 tiers centered around this concept and some of C- mons are just not worth using. If you are doing this, this is what I think should be ranked in it.

C

:aggron-mega: Aggron-Mega
:amoonguss: Amoonguss
:araquanid: Araquanid
:avalugg: Avalugg
:crawdaunt: Crawdaunt
:cresselia: Cresselia
:dracozolt: Dracozolt
:hatterene: Hatterene
:keldeo: Keldeo
:mamoswine: Mamoswine
:mandibuzz: Mandibuzz
:marowak-alola: Marowak-Alola
:moltres: Moltres
:nidoking: Nidoking
:pyukumuku: Pyukumuku
:quagsire: Quagsire
:ribombee: Ribombee
:shedinja: Shedinja
:skarmory: Skarmory
:suicune: Suicune
:thundurus-therian: Thundurus-Therian
:torkoal: Torkoal
:uxie: Uxie
:venusaur: Venusaur

If there are mons that aren't in here that means I either think they shouldn't be ranked or should rise. I agree a lot of what the people above think who should rise above this rank.

Creation of D Rank

Honestly this doesn't need to happen but the D Rank would be for Pokemon that are OU by usage but are otherwise unviable. I think it would be useful for this resource to tell new players to avoid using them.

D

:corsola-galar:

Yeah really just Corsola-G. My reason for it to be here is because its incredibly awkward to build with. Corsola-G is very passive and very prone to knock off spam. And once its Eviolite is gone, it doesn't check anything. Lets not forget that Slowbro and Tangrowth are far more effective physical walls. Slowbro may also hate Knock Off but its not useless if it gets hit by it, and if its Mega Slowbro then it does very little outside of STAB users of the move. Tangrowth is able to run Rocky Helmet to punish Mega Metagross from hitting it unlike Corsola-G who it just switches out and brings in Chansey or Sub Zygarde. Overall, theres no reason to run this thing in this metagame.
 
Last edited:

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
VR Slate 1 / January 26th, 2020

So the VR council has voted on all nominations made in the thread thus far in addition to some internal nominations we had been discussing as well. For full insight on how the votes turned out, refer to this sheet.

Now onto the results:

Rises
:zygarde: A+ to S
:heatran: A to A+
:tangrowth: A to A+
:ferrothorn: A to A+
:blastoise-mega: A to A+
:tapu-fini: A- to A
:corviknight: A- to A
:clefable: A- to A
:slowbro: B to A-
:ditto: B to A-
:slowbro-mega: B- to A-
:gastrodon: B- to B
:seismitoad: B- to B
:rotom-heat: C to B+
:bisharp: C+ to B-
:alomomola: C- to B-
:amoonguss: C to C+
:skarmory: C to C+
:mantine: C- to C
:torkoal: C- to C
:mimikyu: C- to C
:shedinja: C- to C

Drops
:greninja-ash: A+ to A
:magearna: A to A-
:scizor-mega: A to A-
:swampert-mega: A to B+
:latias-mega: A to B+
:garchomp: A- to B+
:gliscor: A- to B+
:dracovish: A- to B+
:pelipper: A- to B+
:tapu-lele: A- to B+
:mawile-mega: A to B+
:rotom-wash: A- to B+
:celesteela: A- to UR
:reuniclus: A- to B
:melmetal: A- to B
:tapu-bulu: B+ to B
:charizard-mega-x: B+ to B
:kommo-o: B+ to B
:hawlucha: B+ to B
:sableye-mega: B+ to B
:diancie-mega: B+ to C
:tapu-koko: B+ to UR
:manaphy: B to B-
:hoopa-unbound: B to B-
:charizard-mega-y: B to B-
:blacephalon: B to B-
:venusaur-mega: B to B-
:azumarill: C+ to C
:venusaur: C+ to C
:garchomp-mega: C+ to UR
:pinsir-mega: C+ to UR
:cinderace: C+ to UR
:corsola-galar: C to UR
:terrakion: C- to UR
:barraskewda: C- to UR
:jellicent: C- to UR
:buzzwole: C- to UR
:cresselia: C- to UR
:dragonite: C- to UR
:marowak-alola: C- to UR
:thundurus: C- to UR
:toxtricity: C- to UR
:uxie: C- to UR
:araquanid: C- to UR
:deoxys-defense: C- to UR

Some explanations on some changes:

:Zygarde: A+ -> S
Zygarde has cemented itself as one of the deadliest setup sweepers in the current metagame, where sets abusing Substitute + either Glare, Toxic, or even Protect with Toxic Spikes support can especially cause a nuisance to the majority of it's checks such as Tangrowth, Slowbro, Tapu Bulu, and Tapu Fini. Choice Band sets have also started gaining some traction, where mindlessly spamming Thousand Arrows can be nigh unbearable to deal with at times once certain resists have been properly accounted for, while sets abusing Z-moves can accomplish a similar goal in overwhelming it's checks with powerful coverage options in it's disposal. Zygarde's flexibility as an offensive and bulky setup sweeping presence has caused enough of a push for it to rise in the S-ranks with other metagame staples such as Mega Metagross and Genesect for this reason.

:slowbro: B to A- / :slowbro-mega: B- to A-
Slowbro's access to Teleport and ability to check prominent metagame threats such as Mega Metagross, Zygarde, Dracovish, and Landorus-T has propelled it in popularity and thus makes it a common sight on the majority of balance teams rn due to it's incredible role compression and ability to generate momentum thanks to it's slow pivoting potential. It still faces strife against the majority of special attackers of course, but still find a way to support it's teammates regardless. It's mega counterpart is ranked similarly due to it largely being able to abuse it's pre-mega state for the majority of the game, only needing to mega evolve once the extra physical bulk and specially offensive power is needed to deal with more deadly threats like Mega Medicham and CB Dracovish under the rain, thus leading them to be ranked together.

:rotom-heat: C to B+
With access to Nasty Plot and ability to avoid hazard damage thanks to Heavy-Duty Boots, Rotom-H can take advantage of many defensive cores seen on balanced teams on which it can threaten both Grass and Water types with it's STABs and be an incredibly difficult mon to check once boosted. It may even circumvent certain checks thanks to the rise of coverage option such as HP ice to deal with threats like Zygarde. Although it does lack reliable recovery, Rotom-H just offers so much as an offensive breaker / pivot for it to justify it such a rise.

:tapu-koko: B+ to UR
Tapu Koko struggles to find any niche in a metagame filled to the brim with better offensive wallbreakers and offensive pivots such as Dragapult, Rotom-H, Z-Move Tornadus-T, and Genesect. The combined nerf to Electric terrain's power and ability for it to remove it's own terrain when trying to perform a Defog role has really diminished any niche Tapu Koko could try to fill in the current meta, especially when considering that Grimmsnarl also outclasses it as a screens setter on HO teams. For this reasoning, Koko will be left unranked for the time being.

:celesteela: A- to UR
Another drastic change of course, but Celesteela has fallen under the same fate as Koko in which it really struggles to distinguish itself from it's new Gen 8 counterpart in Corviknight, where the ladder has access to reliable recovery, U-turn pivoting, and other miscellaneous traits such as Pressure stalling, Bulk Up to act as a wincon, and Taunt to shut down other passive threats. Despite Celesteela's better special bulk and better coverage, there are still better Steel-types that can perform the role as a specially defensive pivot in Heatran, Jirachi, and the aforementioned Corviknight while Mega Metagross, Aegislash, Genesect, and Magearna outclass it as an offensive Steel-type. With all this in mind, Celesteela has been Unranked for now.

We have also decided to remove the C- rank and decided on which mons just rise and stay on the VR and which ones are better left unranked.
 

Guardsweeper

Semper ad Meliora
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
:darmanitan-galar: A to A+
Darmanitan is a very threatening form of speed control in this metagame, often being able to break holes by itself (Icicle Crash chips away at the likes of Tapu Fini and Rotom-Heat quite easily) and clean up late-game very efficiently as long as there is hazard control. Importantly, Slowbro has been preferring to run Leftovers or Slowbronite in lieu of Rocky Helmet in most instances, which means Darmanitan can safely serve as a pivot without repercussions against most matchups. Its splashability and the amount of work it puts in are very much on par with A+ residents and it does not necessarily need more support than say Mega Blastoise, which makes me believe Darmanitan is a safe A+ pick currently.

:slowbro: A- to A
I don't think Slowbro is necessarily inferior to Tapu Fini and should be ranked in A for the qualities which got it to A- in the first place.

:rotom-heat: B+ to A-/A
Rotom-Heat deserves staple status fair and square, having exploded in usage recently. The ease with which it breaks current Balance cores with its Nasty Plot sets is simply astounding, and so is the efficacy of its pivoting prowess with Volt Switch, checking prowess with Pain Split (Mega Metagross, Darmanitan, Genesect, Magearna etc.) and additional breaking prowess with HP Ice/Firium Z/Electrium Z. This is absolutely a few notches above its current rank.

:dracovish: B+ to B/B-
Dracovish struggles to perform in a metagame naturally infested with bulky Grass-Water cores and needs much more support in general than its current rankmates.
 
:amoonguss: C+ -> B-
:dracozolt: C+ -> C
:moltres: C+ -> C
:quagsire: C+ -> C
:skarmory: C+ -> C
:suicune: C+ -> C

I think the C+ rank is unnecessary. Firstly non of the mons in that tier are really above the rest of C, a lot of them require the same amount of team support to function well and same amount of reward of using them. Secondly, separating the C tiers has always felt nitpicky at best. Like in my opinion the C rank should be for mons that have a niche but need to be built around to maximize its effectiveness and just that. No need rank them separately.

Amoonguss stood out of the rest however. I've seen it plenty of times during Room Tours. I just like to highlight some things that have gone well for it. Less Tapu Koko means less Electric Terrain which is brilliant for it since it can use Spore more freely. Spore in general makes countering this thing tricky. Apparently some people have used AV to check Mega Blastoise which is cool I guess.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 4)

Top