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NBA discussion thread
- Thread starter Scofield
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And.....Magic win, as I said. Not particularly a blowout but, Dwight got 24 points and it seems like whenever he gets at least 20 points that the Magic win.
Also <3 muttonhead for shutting up RL. MJ is better than Kobe by a long shot RaikouLover don't even start this crap. Also <3 Kay lol.
I don't mind Magic-Lakers, or Magic-Nuggets, just as long as Cavs don't get to finals. I'm tired of LeBron, I dunno.
Also <3 muttonhead for shutting up RL. MJ is better than Kobe by a long shot RaikouLover don't even start this crap. Also <3 Kay lol.
I don't mind Magic-Lakers, or Magic-Nuggets, just as long as Cavs don't get to finals. I'm tired of LeBron, I dunno.
It's because Lebran is pretty much the whole team for Cleveland. I'm so happy Orlando won again, if we hadn't it would have been pretty bad news. The fact that Dwight is actually making all his free throws is great because he get's fouled so much lolol. 10 point win isn't bad.
WRONGGGGGGGGG... even experts will agree that it is not "by a longshot" and most of America is so far up Michael Jordan's ass to even realize..
Okay, so the last sentence basically kills Jerry West's argument.
Okay, your using statistics to prove this comparison which is horribly faulty in logic. Statistics vary by the team that a player plays for, the pace, the era, etc. A numerical analysis is hardly a reliable source for a subjective question like this. For starters, statistics predict the Lakers to beat Denver in 5 games (they said it ON the game).. and statistics also was what I used to make my NCAA March Madness bracket... while they give somewhat of a ballpark... they are horribly wrong, especially in sports. For example, Kobe Bryant in his highest scoring year averaged ~35 ppg... now he only averages 26.8 or whatever. Did he get worse at scoring? Fuck no... his team just has more offensive options.. which is why using statistics is shitty.
MJ winning MVP is a product of his era having less comparable stand-outs. Kobe will never win 5 MVPs when hes competing against the likes of James and Wade, as well as the best Power Forward of all time in Duncan (yes, he is), and players such as Dirk and Nash.. Haven't you noticed the NBA refuses to give back-to-back MVPs? Could Kobe have won it the last four years? Absolutely... did he... no.. because apparently MVP now goes to the best player of the team with the best record... which is pretty much each of the last 5 years... If you think MVP is a credential for best player... look at Nash and Dirk... smh.
Scoring title... yay! Same thing... LeBron and Wade's teams demand more scoring from them, where as Kobe's does not.. you honestly think he couldn't win the scoring title if he needed to? (key word being NEEDED). Hell, he won it 3 years ago, before they landed Gasol and brought back Fisher...
Defensive player of the year... yeah that really counts for much. Kobe is a better defender than MJ because flat out.. hes guarding stronger, faster, more talented players. He makes the all-defensive team every year for a reason.. he locks down the other teams best SG / PG / SF.. night in and night out. He will never win Defensive Player of the Year playing with the best power forward of all time in Duncan, and defensive specialists Kevin Garnett and Dwight Howard... that is a big mans award in todays game buddy...
I don't flash it... but Kobe is an all-around better winner than LeBron because of his killer instinct.. Bottom line is.. when the game is in the 4th quarter... Kobe plays for blood, LeBron James does the right thing by getting his teammates involved and usually makes the best tactical decision. But we all (except me) grew to love MJ for his killer instinct in the 4th quarter.. and Kobe's is just as lethal as his. LeBron James doesn't have that aspect yet but he should get it in time since hes just now reaching his potential.
Personally, I think you MJ dick-riders are in denile... I've seen MJ play.. I grew up watching him play.. and to be honest.. Kobe Bryant possessess comparable athleticism and size, but is more fundamental sound at both ends of the floor. He has the same killer instinct, a better jumpshot, unbelievable conditioning, and the same defensive presence (which I can argue is better considering that he guards the other teams best player in a league with better players, where as Jordan never did..). As for leadership... they both have poor off-court scandals (don't go there with me) and it is highly a subjective comparison.. but Kobe is only 29 years old and that aspect of his game has clearly matured as of late. Scary thing for you MJ fans is that Kobe has another 10 years (LeBron another 15)... so get used to him.
Believe what you want... but I don't hold Michael as some unfallible god of basketball and aren't afraid to tell all you what you don't want to here.
Hi RL. I guess you're entitled to your opinion, so I won't argue with you over the more perception-based points, but may I address what I think you misrepresent from my post?
The argument that stats mean nothing...well I won't get into that if that's your opinion.
Bill Russel won 3 in a row.
Wilt won 3 in a row.
Kareem won two in a row.
Moses Malone two in a row.
Larry Bird won three in a row.
Magic won two in a row.
In the 2000s, Duncan won two in a row, and most recently Steve Nash.
About MVPs and eras, MJ had to compete with the award with Magic/Bird, Dr J/Kareem/Shaq/Hakeem/Ewing/Robinson, Payton/Drexler/Dominique/Barkley/Bernard King/Isiah and the Bad Boys/ and the guy who was seen as the best PF ever before Timmy D came along, Karl Malone.I would agree with you that the MVP voting process doesn't necessarily dictate the best player winning it.
From 1982 to 2009, only the following guards won Defensive Player of the Year. Sidney Moncrief, MJ, Michael Cooper, Alvin Robertson and Gary Payton. (Ron Artest forward or guard?) None of them were remotely close to winning MVP/scoring title the same year. The other 19 times were won by forwards/centers. So I would definitely agree with you that it is a big man's award, and MJ also had to go against elite defensive centers like Hakeem, Robinson etc.
Therefore making MJ's award when taken into account with his offensive production that much more surprising.
Also, MJ averaged more far more steals, blocks, and defensive ratings such as opponent PER or def +/- than Kobe.
I know blocks and steals can be a misleading stat for defensive prowess. But let's just look at this as a example of impact. For example take Wade's 2009 season of 173 stl/106 blocks, which had a lot of people very impressed. (Rightfully so, considering his 6-4 height.) However, MJ did 259 steals/131 blocks in 1988. Kobe's best is something like 181/67. And the true beast of stls/blocks is Hakeem in 1988 with 213 stls/282 blocks.
The rest of it is your entitled opinion, but I think it would be foolish to think Kobe can play at this level for ten more years. He's been playing NBA ball since 17-18, and at the age of 30 has played 13 seasons of ball, of which many seasons went deep into the playoffs. (MJ at the same age had 9 seasons, 667 games compared to 948 games). He's got a lot of mileage on those legs. Having said all that, Kobe's an exceptional talent, and we should appreciate his play before he starts to fall off his prime.
The second link I posted is a straight up comparison with MJ and Kobe from age 21 onwards (eliminating the Kobe bench years) with pace/possessions adjusted for the modern era, the 2008 season.
The argument that stats mean nothing...well I won't get into that if that's your opinion.
Bill Russel won 3 in a row.
Wilt won 3 in a row.
Kareem won two in a row.
Moses Malone two in a row.
Larry Bird won three in a row.
Magic won two in a row.
In the 2000s, Duncan won two in a row, and most recently Steve Nash.
About MVPs and eras, MJ had to compete with the award with Magic/Bird, Dr J/Kareem/Shaq/Hakeem/Ewing/Robinson, Payton/Drexler/Dominique/Barkley/Bernard King/Isiah and the Bad Boys/ and the guy who was seen as the best PF ever before Timmy D came along, Karl Malone.I would agree with you that the MVP voting process doesn't necessarily dictate the best player winning it.
From 1982 to 2009, only the following guards won Defensive Player of the Year. Sidney Moncrief, MJ, Michael Cooper, Alvin Robertson and Gary Payton. (Ron Artest forward or guard?) None of them were remotely close to winning MVP/scoring title the same year. The other 19 times were won by forwards/centers. So I would definitely agree with you that it is a big man's award, and MJ also had to go against elite defensive centers like Hakeem, Robinson etc.
Therefore making MJ's award when taken into account with his offensive production that much more surprising.
Also, MJ averaged more far more steals, blocks, and defensive ratings such as opponent PER or def +/- than Kobe.
I know blocks and steals can be a misleading stat for defensive prowess. But let's just look at this as a example of impact. For example take Wade's 2009 season of 173 stl/106 blocks, which had a lot of people very impressed. (Rightfully so, considering his 6-4 height.) However, MJ did 259 steals/131 blocks in 1988. Kobe's best is something like 181/67. And the true beast of stls/blocks is Hakeem in 1988 with 213 stls/282 blocks.
The rest of it is your entitled opinion, but I think it would be foolish to think Kobe can play at this level for ten more years. He's been playing NBA ball since 17-18, and at the age of 30 has played 13 seasons of ball, of which many seasons went deep into the playoffs. (MJ at the same age had 9 seasons, 667 games compared to 948 games). He's got a lot of mileage on those legs. Having said all that, Kobe's an exceptional talent, and we should appreciate his play before he starts to fall off his prime.
RaikouLover other people may be a MJ dick rider or they could also just be smart. Of course you think differently because you are a Kobe dick rider. So why should your opinion matter to people who are neither yet still think MJ is better?
Anyways as far as you probably thinking Bryant is the best player ever you really need to look to the past at players like Bill Russell.
And as it is, Kobe himself doesn't even consider himself the best.....
Anyways as far as you probably thinking Bryant is the best player ever you really need to look to the past at players like Bill Russell.
And as it is, Kobe himself doesn't even consider himself the best.....
whaaaaaaaaaaaaattttttttttttttttttttt?
are you kidding
jordan's era was the deepest era of basketball in history (bird, magic, hakeem, barkley, wilkins, drexler, ewing, prime shaq, payton, robinson, miller, malone)
kobe's era was the LEAST deep era of basketball in history; his era was so weak allen fucking iverson could win an MVP (career TS% = 519, current NBA average = .530; iverson HURT his team most nights; he rarely got out of the first round, and he was the epitome of a chucker; if you replaced iverson with a somewhat above average player, like rip hamilton, they may have won a title)
and of course his team was a first round exit team; his team wins more when he shoots less (though jordan didn't win when he was winning scoring titles either)
that's a lie and you know it. Kobe's era like I said is not nearly as deep. And players are not much faster than they were in the 80s and 90s, conditioning has improved only slightly.
do you watch laker games :/
are you insane
have you watched michael jordan play
michael jordan reinvented his game multiple times
he was a slasher, who later became a great shooter, who later developed an unstoppable fadeaway from the post
oh yeah, current NBA rules favor perimeter players most of all; jordan played in an era with handchecking and more physical play (read the "Jordan Rules" for an example).
True, false, true, and false. Jordan was the best perimeter defender in NBA history. While being the best perimeter scorer in history (which takes energy).
The only real edge Kobe has on Jordan is that he's a way more prolific 3-point shooter.
He may not be the best player of all time (Maybe Wilt or KAJ), but he's the best guard of all time, and while Kobe is a comparable player, he has failed to recieve the same accolades at Jordan, and likely will never.
Nope.
Muttonhead nailed it; Kobe has a LOT more wear and tear on his legs. Not to mention Jordan retired twice after 30.
That holds a lot of weight. It's called Image suicide.
As I said before... none of which have have won in the last 5-10+ years. That is an award Kobe will never win playin in the league with the likes of Howard, Garnett and Duncan, etc.
Another bullshit statistic. As a basketball player you know that blocks and steals do not equal being a standout defender... that is more of a product of help defense. As for PER, anyone who watched the Bulls know that MJ NEVER guarded the other teams best SG / SF... It was always Scottie Pippen.. so naturally MJ would have a good PER statistic... check your shit. Scottie did the defensive dirty work, not MJ.
Your point is? Your citing hall of fame names as a way to prove your point. However, your delusional if you think LeBron, Wade, Melo, Duncan, Shaq, Nash, Dirk, Yao, Parker, etc. all the leagues greats aren't Hall of Fame material when they retire... come on man...
This is kind of a "meh" point. Jordan didn't go on his winning tear til he was Kobe's age now. Even still, he played in college so I don't know where all that "wear and tear is." In reality when you look at the difference between college and the NBA (roughly 50 games per year), Kobe really has only clocked 200 more games than Michael.. I don't think someone who's off-season workout routines as meticulous as Kobe's will cause him to "wear and tear" as soon as you think... You won't see any decline in his game for at least 4-5 years... maybe longer :(.
Thank you for reiterating my point.
Not nearly as deep? Bullshit. You can only name less than ten "big names" from Jordan's Era as great... where as I can rattle off 20 names from the NBA now that will surely be hall-of-famers.
I sure as hell do. Who did Kobe guard? Chauncey Billups and Carmelo Anthony when Ariza was getting destroyed. Please tell me they aren't the best on the Nuggets. Thank you. How about last series? Artest? Yuppers. Every team they play... Kobe is taking the other teams best of PG / SG / SF. For comparison... Jordan never did, and LeBron is guarding Rafer Alston, which is probably why Cleveland is sucking it up right now.
Irrelevant.
Kobe has a better jump shoot than MJ... its a given.. you just said that in your last sentence. Best perimeter in NBA history... bullshit. If he was, he would have been assigned to guard the best player on the other team... defense wins games. Plus, look who Jordan was guarding... I'd like to see him on the Carmelo Anthony's. Well guess what, Iverson gave him a taste of what the "new" era is like when he flat out undressed Michael. Best perimeter scorer in history your claiming is based on statistics. The fact is... I don't kno how he can be the best when Kobe has a better jump shot, shoots better free throws, and has comparable athleticism and ball handling skills (experts say Kobe handles better actually), not to mention hes playing against more physically imposing defenders in the whole (its clear that getting to the rack is much harder in todays era evidenced by the less points and possessions).
Yes, he will never receive 5 MVPs and defensive scoring titles, but that hardly means hes not the best player... it just means he has more competition. The Western Conference has produced NINE of the last ELEVEN MVPs... (and its a given that Dirk, Duncan, and Nash are all future hall-of-famers) that is who Kobe is playing against. Kobe will never be as successful as Michael Jordan... but success and awards doesn't always define a player's ability.
The bottom line is.. Kobe can do EVERYTHING Michael Jordan can do.. and has already done things Jordan hasn't. So the only defense against MJ is clinging to his awards, accolades, and statistics... but you have to look at the whole picture.
I'd be happy to discuss this further... but I don't want to shit up this thread. I htought about posting another thread later on my belief about evolution and sports that may be worth a read.
Ewing, Drexler, Robinson, Bird, Magic, Wilkins, Worthy, McHale, Shaq, Payton, Parish, Miller, Malone, Barkley, Stockton, Kemp, Webber, Mourning, Mutombo, Hardaway pre-injury,
He did...last series. However, Kobe has been in the league for 12 years. He never took the best opposing player on the court every night. Jordan did.
Kobe also trails Jordan in steals, blocks, and rebounding.
No he was a more prolific 3-point shooter, something Michael Jordan didn't have in his game. That does not make Kobe a better jump-shooter. Kobe is about equal to Jordan as a mid-range shooter, and far behind Jordan as a post player.
Jordan did guard the best opposing perimeter player, that statement is simply false. And he hardly actually had to, seeing he had Pippen next to him.
How old was Jordan then? 36? 37? Is Kobe going to be a lockdown defender at 37?
Both around 84%. Look it up.
, and has comparable athleticism and ball handling skills (experts say Kobe handles better actually), not to mention hes playing against more physically imposing defenders in the whole
Actually points pace is about the same during the Jordan years as the last 3 years. However, you conveniently forget years like Kobe's 2nd three peat year, where the NBA scoring average was 95 ppg, compared to near 100 in the Jordan prime years.
[/quote]
Also, if you even attempt to argue that evolution has affected athletes then you know nothing about either sports or athletes.
EDIT: Ya know I shouldn't make any promises on making threads because of how lazy I've been :-(
I live somewhat near Orlando, so everyone's rooting for the Magic to be triumphant over the Cav's. I've been watching the games I'm curious as if it's just my bias that makes me think Howard getting all those technical fouls is unreasonable. Well, more like that he's getting them and not Lebron. Anyone think this is rediculous, or just us? Around here we just suspect a ploy to get a Kobe-Lebron match-up...
Nah... I think the NBA is just out of fucking control with the flagrants and technicals... Every game is hard to watch because they call EVERYTHING a foul lately
Honestly, they way the NBA operates things, its hard for the players to know where to have their mindset in terms of aggressiveness.
DJones on the Nuggets got away with things, but Kobe has done the same in the past. If the stranglehold on games is lifted(how about FTs in the 40-50 attempt range?) and a clear definition between hard foul and flagrant is found things will become entertaining once again.
Its not like teams need a Kobe stopper(Doug Christie, Bruce Bowen, Bonzi Wells, Shane Battier ect) to be successful against the Lakers any ways. Simply limiting the bench and keeping the boards moderately even gives you a decent chance, which is what Denver did in game 4. Im not sure why PJackson dosent play Jordan Farmar more of give the ball to Pau in the post..
Now that im in a reminiscing type of mood, im getting nightmares of how the lakeshow absolutely steamrolled everyone up until 03'. The injury bug and general age caused it, and I guess the Spurs just wanted it more, but I doubt we will ever have success against them again with this roster.
Rambling aside: Cleveland by a slim margin.
DJones on the Nuggets got away with things, but Kobe has done the same in the past. If the stranglehold on games is lifted(how about FTs in the 40-50 attempt range?) and a clear definition between hard foul and flagrant is found things will become entertaining once again.
Its not like teams need a Kobe stopper(Doug Christie, Bruce Bowen, Bonzi Wells, Shane Battier ect) to be successful against the Lakers any ways. Simply limiting the bench and keeping the boards moderately even gives you a decent chance, which is what Denver did in game 4. Im not sure why PJackson dosent play Jordan Farmar more of give the ball to Pau in the post..
Now that im in a reminiscing type of mood, im getting nightmares of how the lakeshow absolutely steamrolled everyone up until 03'. The injury bug and general age caused it, and I guess the Spurs just wanted it more, but I doubt we will ever have success against them again with this roster.
Rambling aside: Cleveland by a slim margin.
Anyone ever notice JR Smith celebrates after EVERY point he gets...? you almost would think he's never scored before.... Its funny because on an unrated broadcast such as basketball you can clearly read the obscenities hes saying and its funny when the refs T him up for it... lol
Kinda the same way Eddie House does, but I see where your coming from.
Yes. Like when he yelled "mother******" and they kept replaying that in slow motion on Sportscenter. lol
Watching Cavs/Magic game 4 now. Have no idea how it's gonna turn out, but I think at this point in the game the Magic have the edge.
Incidentally, since I didn't watch the Lakers/Nuggets game 4, did anybody catch that game? Any comments or anything to note? How bad did Ariza and Melo look out there with their respective injuries?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUF-oPz2EWA&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fbasketbawful.blogspot.com%2F&feature=player_embedded
J.R. Smith, the three point shooting chicken..
edit: Magic win in overtime! Man the Orlando offense made Cleveland's offense seem downright amateurish at times.
Incidentally, since I didn't watch the Lakers/Nuggets game 4, did anybody catch that game? Any comments or anything to note? How bad did Ariza and Melo look out there with their respective injuries?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUF-oPz2EWA&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fbasketbawful.blogspot.com%2F&feature=player_embedded
J.R. Smith, the three point shooting chicken..
edit: Magic win in overtime! Man the Orlando offense made Cleveland's offense seem downright amateurish at times.
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