yea, QA can help against dragonite, especially if they're packing Extremespeed. Its just good to get those KO's on pokemon with low health. It's helped me pick off such things as Azelf's at 15% and stuff like that. Of course its replaceable with other moves, its up to what you want to cover though.
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New and 'creative' moveset/EV spread thread Mk. 5
- Thread starter Lee
- Start date
true that scizor BP would deal a lot of damage,but think about it,how many sceptiles carry a move to deal with scizor,none,and that is why hp fire is so awesome,they think=omg a sceptile,how he pretend on hurting me i still need to discover,i will u-turn to ohko him and switch another pokemon(then BAM hp fire!) if the sceptile still got at least 90% they will probaly u-turn since BP would not ohko,if the sceptile is below this,he fear BP,but if hp fire was not yet used,they might try u-turn instead,either way,scizor is the main reason to even think about using hp fire,and that is why its not a main option on the set,but still a option if you decide to run dragon pulse instead of hp ice(has i said before,dragon pulse still ohko standard naive mence after SR damage,and specialy bulk mence and dragonite are a little more rare then mixmence or DDmence)
"ScareChamp"
Machamp @ Leftovers
Adamant nature
No Guard/Guts
252 Atk/252 spd/6 hp
- Scary Face
- DynamicPunch/Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Payback/Earthquake
The problem with this is payback is only 50 base power if you are faster. You wont be doing enough damage with it to beat latias/rotom
Machamp may not get t-wave, but he does get body slam which has poor coverage, but if you're looking to slow stuff down, that is your best bet seeing as scary face is nullified as the opponent switches out. Don't use patback either that's a bad idea alongside body slam. Consider Ice punch if latias is your problem or guts as an ability if rotom-a is your problem since guts would just boost attack from will-o-wisp.
Entry hazard support is just as beneficial with body slam, since the parafusion with body slam/dynamic punch will be forcing quite a few switches, and body slam adds team paralysis support to help slower bulky sweepers on your team outrun fast threats that get paralyzed.
Entry hazard support is just as beneficial with body slam, since the parafusion with body slam/dynamic punch will be forcing quite a few switches, and body slam adds team paralysis support to help slower bulky sweepers on your team outrun fast threats that get paralyzed.
Body Slam doesn't hit pokemon like Rotom-A, one of Machamp's most common switchins, and only paralyzes 30% of the time. Scary Face halves speed 90% of the time, completely destroying Rotom-A, Latias, Salamence, Gyarados, etc. With Rotom-A, they will probably try to burn you, so you can switch out. The others you can DynamicPunch, which may catch another switch in, making them switch out and adding up residual damage.
Scary face doesn't hinder bulky rotom-A at all, it actually makes it harder to faint seeing as your payback is now 100 BP (factoring in super effective) instead of 200, and in any situation with the other three counters you listed, they would be better off paralyzed 30% since they are immune to spikes and toxic spikes anyways, and lowering their speed will just make them switch out and bounce more intimidates on your pokemon in the case of gyarados and salamence. Either way, if you want your machamp to beat rotom-A, use rest talker to avoid status and hit harder with payback due to lower speed.
Why would anyone stay in on Rotom-A with No Guard Machamp in the first place? By lowering your speed atleast you allow things like Lucario or Tyranitar to Crunch it before it can Will-o-Wisp it.
Body Slam's paralysis rate means you need to catch one of those pokemon on the switch while also having to hit them atleast 3 times(on average) to get the paralysis. In general, it is a terrible option except on pokemon who are slow and receive STAB on it(Snorlax), have Scrappy(Miltank) or pokemon that have Serene Grace(Jirachi).
Now I'm not saying Scary Face is a great move, but it is workable with support and a far superior option than Body Slam.
You would stay in because he has rest+sleep talk. I will run a series of tests and be back to you with data that body slam is highly more viable than scary face.
Also you wouldn't be able to crunch rotom-A because you'd be switching into the will-o-wisp after the scary face off your machamp.
Also you wouldn't be able to crunch rotom-A because you'd be switching into the will-o-wisp after the scary face off your machamp.
Obviously you would use something like Celebi as a pivot, then send in Tyranitar to Crunch/Pursuit them.
Rotom-A could just switch predicting your switch then what? More wasted moves as opposed to the possible paralysis on all his other counters through body slam. It would need stealth rock support and spin blocking support to be even somewhat viable as well as a pursuit user and celebi, and then after all that your team becomes SD scizor weak since SD scizor beats machamp, ttar, and celebi.
Now you are just arguing the viability of the initial set, which was not my intention at all. If you want to use parafusion, it's typically best to fill your team with pokemon like Jirachi, Togekiss, Snorlax, and then finish with Machamp.
Both body slam and scary face are quite gimmick on Machamp in my opinion. Scary face can, at least, guarantee some switches because it has better accuracy than body slam's paralysis rate. Not exactly a great set, but with proprer entry hazard support it may have some uses.
I'm not sure how sub Machamp isn't strictly better.
Considering the problem with payback, there will be many times when you want to be hitting something with payback after you have scary faced and you simply won't be doing enough. Sub Machamp is a great set, and I'm not sure why one would try and throw gimmicks like body slam or scary face into that moveslot, as in the overwhelming majority of situations substitute is a better choice.
Sub Machamp wrecks havoc vs. many stall teams because it has sub. As long as you can get it in before t-spikes are up, gl to the stall player. It just becomes a game of chance on whether or not you brought stone edge or ice punch, and whether they brought Gyarados or Gliscor (though Gyarados does alright). I feel for them if they brought Rotom-A, since every sub Machamp should have payback. Clever switching won't save the stall player either, because since you have the sub up, at some point they have to stand and fight and get smacked around (As some may have guessed by now I'm speaking from painful experience). Phazing is probably one's best bet, Hippo and Skarm being the best for the job.
Rest-talk Machamp can also give stall a headache, however I personally find the added coverage of sub machamp to be more annoying because I have been phazing with gyarados recently making it more annoying to phaze due to stone edge.
Considering the problem with payback, there will be many times when you want to be hitting something with payback after you have scary faced and you simply won't be doing enough. Sub Machamp is a great set, and I'm not sure why one would try and throw gimmicks like body slam or scary face into that moveslot, as in the overwhelming majority of situations substitute is a better choice.
Sub Machamp wrecks havoc vs. many stall teams because it has sub. As long as you can get it in before t-spikes are up, gl to the stall player. It just becomes a game of chance on whether or not you brought stone edge or ice punch, and whether they brought Gyarados or Gliscor (though Gyarados does alright). I feel for them if they brought Rotom-A, since every sub Machamp should have payback. Clever switching won't save the stall player either, because since you have the sub up, at some point they have to stand and fight and get smacked around (As some may have guessed by now I'm speaking from painful experience). Phazing is probably one's best bet, Hippo and Skarm being the best for the job.
Rest-talk Machamp can also give stall a headache, however I personally find the added coverage of sub machamp to be more annoying because I have been phazing with gyarados recently making it more annoying to phaze due to stone edge.
Stall typically has a pokemon like Celebi, with Perish Song, so pokemon that stay in long and threaten the team aren't that big of an issue. I don't think a well made stall team would have much problems with SubChamp, or most Machamp for that matter.
Perish song Celebi is an alright solution to sub machamp, but I personally think Skarm, Hippo, or even Gyara deal with him better just by phasing. Perish song still gives the Machamp 3 turns to fire off attacks behind a sub (assuming he subs on the switch, then perish song - attack). Switching around is all well in good until they guess correctly.
Perish song Celebi "commonly" being on stall teams these days, and is to my knowledge a misconception. Obi-stall was made much before November of last year, when Obi reposted it in the RMT archive. Celebi with perish song was used during that time. (note at this point that Celebi is the only viable perish songer in OU)
However since then it has not been used as often. Celebi isn't as great anymore, and is becoming increasingly more difficult to fit onto a stall team. For evidence I'll start with the RMT index, where since Obi stall, 8 stall/stall balanced teams have been posted, 7 without Celebi. The one with Celebi was posted in 2008 as well, and was a leech seed Celebi (not perish song). Further perusal of these teams shows that only 2 of the 8 deal with sub Machamp well, one team with torment Heatran, and the other with Gliscor (I'm assuming stone edge). A few even acknowledge that it is a pain for their team to deal with sub Machamp. This is rather circumstantial evidence, so I understand if you are skeptical. It is a fact however that Celebi's usage has dropped as a whole throughout platinum.
Dec 2008 14 | Celebi | 49525 | 12.06 |
Jan 2009 13 | Celebi | 56982 | 12.54 |
Feb 2009 17 | Celebi | 44730 | 10.35 |
Mar 2009 15 | Celebi | 50658 | 10.36 |
Apr 2009 17 | Celebi | 58608 | 10.03 |
May 2009 22 | Celebi | 55207 | 8.15 |
June 2009 26 | Celebi | 51691 | 7.49 |
July 2009 24 | Celebi | 64697 | 7.89 |
Aug 2009 26 | Celebi | 64035 | 7.60 |
Sept 2009 25 | Celebi | 55353 | 7.18 |
Oct 2009 22 | Celebi | 58742 | 7.42 |
Nov 2009 22 | Celebi | 57463 | 7.87 |
(seems to have leveled off at about 7.5-8 percent usage)
So yeah those two things plus my opinion that it's hard (or harder than it used to be) to fit Celebi in a stall team and that sub Machamp can be annoying for stall, may or may not mean anything to you.
Perish Song Celebi isn't common on stall teams any more. Plenty of Semistall teams use a Trickscarf Rotom to handle Suicune. My stall team uses Scarf Magnezone for such a purpose. Also, Zapdos can deal with it, OHKOing with the inevitable crit, or at least making setting up Calm Minds difficult. All of this, combined with the fact that the Rotom formes handle Gyarados well, results in Celebi's decline on stall teams.
I don't like the idea of a stall team having yet another member that Tyranitar gets to completely destroy. To me this is huge. Celebi can 2HKO with Grass Knot, while still beating things like Sub CM Jirachi(none of the aforementioned pokemon can do so), SubChamp, Gyarados(most), and CM Suicune. I don't know of another pokemon with reliable recover and Natural Cure that can do so.
I was trying to make a cool set for Lucario, because I love it, but today isn't that easy to pull off a sweep with the SDLuke, mainly because the lack of speed to hit Salamence, Gliscor, Scarf Rotom and so many other faster pokémons, so I decided to create a new moveset, and here it is:
Agility Lucario
Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 64 HP | 192 Spd | 252 SAtk
Nature: Modest (+SAtk, -Atk)
How to use
First of all: If you want to take full advantage of this set you will need to support it with a Togekiss with BP and Nasty Plot. This Lucario is designed to take down common counters of the standart SD set. To really takes advantage of this set, you can enter on a choiced move that Luke resists, as a Pursuit, Stone Edge, Bullet Punch, you got it.
If you're using it alone, in the first turn you need to use Agility, in order to have enough speed to KO a lot of usual counters, like Gliscor, Salamence, Rotom-h and other stuff.
Hidden Power Ice is the most useful move, OHKOing Gliscor, Salamence, Flygon and doing a nice damage on Hippowdon. Shadow Ball hits Rotom-H, Celebi, Azelf, Gengar and some other things for SE, and Aura Sphere is used over Close Combat, so Lucario can be Modest and run EVs on SAtk only, without worrying about the Atk.
Team Options
Some good friends of this set include Latias and Togekiss. Latias has good synergy with Lucario, and it can lure TTar and Scizor, so Lucario can get a safe switch in. Togekiss is a great partner because it can Baton Pass some Nasty Plots, that help Lucario. Luke can really take advantage of the Ice and Rock weakness of Togekiss.
EVs
With 192 EVs on Speed Lucario reaches 264 Speed, outspeeding Adamant Gyarados and Jolly Metagross/Breloom, but the most important: after an Agility, it reaches 528, being able to outspeed Timid Scarf Latias and Jolly Scarf Flygon. 252 on SAtk to wreak some havoc, and the remaining EVs on HP to take advantage of the awesome resistances of Lucario.
Counters
When using this set, the pokémon that gave me most trouble was by far Gyarados, because with Shadow Ball, Lucario does 30~36% damage on Bulky Gyarados, so even with SR isn't a 2HKO, so you need to pass 2 Nasty Plots to Lucario in order to KO Gyarados. Hippowdon is another problem if you aren't Baton Passing NP from togekiss, because HP Ice does 50~59% to Hippo, but it can OHKO Lucario with EQ.
Other Options
If you aren't using a Togekiss to suport Lucario, you can move the EVs from the HP to the Atk, change the Nature to Rash and Close Combat > Aura Sphere, to OHKO Blissey.
Damage Calcs
1. the ~ means 100% OHKO with SR
2. with an Agility, Lucario is faster than an these threats
~ HP Ice on Standart Gliscor: 508 - 600 (143.50% - 169.49%)
~ HP Ice on YacheBerry Pure BP Gliscor: 202 - 238 (57.06% - 67.23%)
~ Shadow Ball on ScarfRotom-H: 216 - 256 (89.26% - 105.79%)
~ Shadow Ball on Standart Rotom-H: 216 - 256 (71.05% - 84.21%)
~ Shadow Ball on ResTalk Rotom-H: 192 - 226 (63.16% - 74.34%)
~ Shadow Ball on Standart Latias: 270 - 320 (89.40% - 105.96%)
~ Aura Sphere on CM Jirachi: 193 - 228 (47.77% - 56.44%)
~ +2 Aura Sphere on CM jirachi: 384 - 453 (95.05% - 112.13%)
~ +2 Aura Sphere on Scarf Jirachi: 384 - 453 (106.37% - 125.48%)
~ Aura Sphere on Standart Vaporeon: 201 - 237 (44.87% - 52.90%)
~ +2 Aura Sphere on Standart Vaporeon: 400 - 472 (89.29% - 105.36%)
~ Aura Sphere on WishBlissey: 236 - 278 (36.25% - 42.70%)
~ HP Ice on Standart Hippo: 210 - 248 (50.00% - 59.05%)
Conclusion
This isn't a gimmick, this set is working better than I was expecting, and the surprise factor is what makes the difference. I'm enjoying using it, he turned alone a 5x1 battle on 1x0, just to demonstrate how powerful it is.
This Lucario works great KOing most of the switch-ins: Rotom-H, Salamence, Gliscor and Latias, the only thing that he can't deal is Gyarados.
Hope you try it and enjoy my creative moveset ;-)
Agility Lucario
Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 64 HP | 192 Spd | 252 SAtk
Nature: Modest (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Agility
- Aura Sphere
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Ice]
How to use
First of all: If you want to take full advantage of this set you will need to support it with a Togekiss with BP and Nasty Plot. This Lucario is designed to take down common counters of the standart SD set. To really takes advantage of this set, you can enter on a choiced move that Luke resists, as a Pursuit, Stone Edge, Bullet Punch, you got it.
If you're using it alone, in the first turn you need to use Agility, in order to have enough speed to KO a lot of usual counters, like Gliscor, Salamence, Rotom-h and other stuff.
Hidden Power Ice is the most useful move, OHKOing Gliscor, Salamence, Flygon and doing a nice damage on Hippowdon. Shadow Ball hits Rotom-H, Celebi, Azelf, Gengar and some other things for SE, and Aura Sphere is used over Close Combat, so Lucario can be Modest and run EVs on SAtk only, without worrying about the Atk.
Team Options
Some good friends of this set include Latias and Togekiss. Latias has good synergy with Lucario, and it can lure TTar and Scizor, so Lucario can get a safe switch in. Togekiss is a great partner because it can Baton Pass some Nasty Plots, that help Lucario. Luke can really take advantage of the Ice and Rock weakness of Togekiss.
EVs
With 192 EVs on Speed Lucario reaches 264 Speed, outspeeding Adamant Gyarados and Jolly Metagross/Breloom, but the most important: after an Agility, it reaches 528, being able to outspeed Timid Scarf Latias and Jolly Scarf Flygon. 252 on SAtk to wreak some havoc, and the remaining EVs on HP to take advantage of the awesome resistances of Lucario.
Counters
When using this set, the pokémon that gave me most trouble was by far Gyarados, because with Shadow Ball, Lucario does 30~36% damage on Bulky Gyarados, so even with SR isn't a 2HKO, so you need to pass 2 Nasty Plots to Lucario in order to KO Gyarados. Hippowdon is another problem if you aren't Baton Passing NP from togekiss, because HP Ice does 50~59% to Hippo, but it can OHKO Lucario with EQ.
Other Options
If you aren't using a Togekiss to suport Lucario, you can move the EVs from the HP to the Atk, change the Nature to Rash and Close Combat > Aura Sphere, to OHKO Blissey.
Damage Calcs
1. the ~ means 100% OHKO with SR
2. with an Agility, Lucario is faster than an these threats
~ HP Ice on Standart Gliscor: 508 - 600 (143.50% - 169.49%)
~ HP Ice on YacheBerry Pure BP Gliscor: 202 - 238 (57.06% - 67.23%)
~ Shadow Ball on ScarfRotom-H: 216 - 256 (89.26% - 105.79%)
~ Shadow Ball on Standart Rotom-H: 216 - 256 (71.05% - 84.21%)
~ Shadow Ball on ResTalk Rotom-H: 192 - 226 (63.16% - 74.34%)
~ Shadow Ball on Standart Latias: 270 - 320 (89.40% - 105.96%)
~ Aura Sphere on CM Jirachi: 193 - 228 (47.77% - 56.44%)
~ +2 Aura Sphere on CM jirachi: 384 - 453 (95.05% - 112.13%)
~ +2 Aura Sphere on Scarf Jirachi: 384 - 453 (106.37% - 125.48%)
~ Aura Sphere on Standart Vaporeon: 201 - 237 (44.87% - 52.90%)
~ +2 Aura Sphere on Standart Vaporeon: 400 - 472 (89.29% - 105.36%)
~ Aura Sphere on WishBlissey: 236 - 278 (36.25% - 42.70%)
~ HP Ice on Standart Hippo: 210 - 248 (50.00% - 59.05%)
Conclusion
This isn't a gimmick, this set is working better than I was expecting, and the surprise factor is what makes the difference. I'm enjoying using it, he turned alone a 5x1 battle on 1x0, just to demonstrate how powerful it is.
This Lucario works great KOing most of the switch-ins: Rotom-H, Salamence, Gliscor and Latias, the only thing that he can't deal is Gyarados.
Hope you try it and enjoy my creative moveset ;-)
That Agility Lucario set has been in the analysis for a long time but was just recently removed. :blush:
also Dark Pulse is usually the best option
also Dark Pulse is usually the best option
That was a mixed set, and unless you plan on supporting it with nasty plot passing, a neutral Atk nature and close combat is still a better option in my opinion. Also, shadow ball is still a good option for the 20% chance to get a SpD drop on your opponent, and allows you to hit Heracross for neutral damage at least.
But is Heracross really common enough? I think the ability to flinch Celebi or Rotom-A 20% of the time may be worth it to prevent them from paralyzing/killing you.
Pokemon Name: Mismagius
Moveset Name: Lead
Move 1: Will-o-wisp
Move 2: Destiny Bond
Move 3: Shadow Ball
Move 4: Thunderbolt
Item: Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Timid (+Spd, -Atk)
EVs: HP 6/SpA 252/Spe 252
Designed just to take out other leads. Will-o-wisp them first then if I have 100% HP I Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt them, and if I have less than half, I use Destiny Bond.
Moveset Name: Lead
Move 1: Will-o-wisp
Move 2: Destiny Bond
Move 3: Shadow Ball
Move 4: Thunderbolt
Item: Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Timid (+Spd, -Atk)
EVs: HP 6/SpA 252/Spe 252
Designed just to take out other leads. Will-o-wisp them first then if I have 100% HP I Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt them, and if I have less than half, I use Destiny Bond.