>_> Well I would have thought you could work out the held item for yourself... Black sludge. Anyway, with earthquake venusaur CAN counter an incoming heatran expecting an energy ball, or sludge bomb.
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New and 'creative' moveset/EV spread thread Mk. 5
- Thread starter Lee
- Start date
I'm bored, so:
Zapdos @ Charti Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP/72 Def/36 Spd/152 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Heat Wave
- Roost
Much like the standard defensive Zapdos, but this one counters Tyranitar, Gyarados, SubChamp, and other physical attackers with a Rock-type attack, the former two being extremely common on the ladder these days. Hidden Power Fighting OHKOes 4/0 Tyranitar (scarf) and 2HKOes bulkier ones (banded), and it also 2HKOes Heatran. It's best used with a spinner.
Relicanth @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 HP/232 Atk/24 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SpA)
- Head Smash
- Waterfall
- Toxic / Earthquake / Stealth Rock
- Toxic / Earthquake / Stealth Rock
Relicanth works great in OU, functioning as an effective counter to Gyarados, DD Salamence, Heatran, and a lot more. Relicanth's has a base HP of 100 and base defense of 130, meaning it can take a hit or two with no trouble. It has two powerful STAB attacks that get great coverage, and the last two slots can be used for whatever you need for your team. Earthquake may seem like a good choice, but you won't be using it much with Waterfall and Headsmash in the same set since Heatran, Infernape etc. are already OHKOed.
Zapdos @ Charti Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP/72 Def/36 Spd/152 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Heat Wave
- Roost
Much like the standard defensive Zapdos, but this one counters Tyranitar, Gyarados, SubChamp, and other physical attackers with a Rock-type attack, the former two being extremely common on the ladder these days. Hidden Power Fighting OHKOes 4/0 Tyranitar (scarf) and 2HKOes bulkier ones (banded), and it also 2HKOes Heatran. It's best used with a spinner.
Relicanth @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 HP/232 Atk/24 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SpA)
- Head Smash
- Waterfall
- Toxic / Earthquake / Stealth Rock
- Toxic / Earthquake / Stealth Rock
Relicanth works great in OU, functioning as an effective counter to Gyarados, DD Salamence, Heatran, and a lot more. Relicanth's has a base HP of 100 and base defense of 130, meaning it can take a hit or two with no trouble. It has two powerful STAB attacks that get great coverage, and the last two slots can be used for whatever you need for your team. Earthquake may seem like a good choice, but you won't be using it much with Waterfall and Headsmash in the same set since Heatran, Infernape etc. are already OHKOed.
That Relicanth just doesn't work. At best it can revenge kill Gyara, Mence, or Heatran, but its not going to be able to switch in and KO them. Relicanth has bad Attack, so I don't see how you could OHKO a Heatran with a Waterfall, for example. I'm even thinking that beating a Bulky Gyara with that Head Smash would be difficult as well, without any Life Orb to boost it.
Uh, what? This Relicanth does 120% - 141.6% to Bulky Gyarados, and it can even OHKO through Intimidate if SR is up. Also, I don't think you saw the Shuca Berry, because with that, it isn't just revenge killing those threats. Even a MixMence EQ only does 24% - 28.5% with the Shuca Berry, so Relicanth can easily survive 2 Earthquakes. For Heatran, it really needs Sandstorm to be up though, because it will take a truckload from Earth Power otherwise. I personally like the Choice Bander and Special Defending Sleep Talker better in OU, but this can work too, just make sure it has Sandstorm support.
232 Adamant Shuca Berry Relicanth Head Smash
vs. 156/96 Adamant Leftovers Gyarados : 120% - 141.6%
That's a Smogon Standard Bulky Gyarados, just in case you didn't know.
232 Adamant Shuca Berry Relicanth -1 Head Smash
vs. 156/96 Adamant Leftovers Gyarados : 80% - 94.6%
With Stealth Rock and Intimidate factored in, it's still a OHKO. Again, it's Bulky Gyarados.
232 Adamant Shuca Berry Relicanth Waterfall
vs. Naive Choice Scarf Heatran : 65% - 76.8%
232 Adamant Shuca Berry Relicanth Head Smash
vs. Naive Choice Scarf Heatran : 60.4% - 71.5%
232 Adamant Shuca Berry Relicanth Earthquake
vs. Naive Choice Scarf Heatran : 107.7% - 127.6%
232 Adamant Shuca Berry Relicanth -1 Head Smash
vs. 156/96 Adamant Leftovers Salamence : 79.5% - 94.1%
232 Adamant Shuca Berry Relicanth Head Smash
vs. 156/96 Adamant Leftovers Salamence : 118.9% - 141.1%
~~~~~~~
252/0 Adamant Shuca Berry Relicanth
vs. 252 Adamant Leftovers Gyarados +1 Earthquake : 34.4% - 40.6%
That's a Smogon Standard Offensive Gyarados.
252/0 Adamant Shuca Berry Relicanth
vs. 72 Adamant Leftovers Gyarados +1 Waterfall : 35.6% - 42.6%
Since Bulky Gyarados don't normally have Earthquake, here's its next best option in Waterfall.
252/0 Adamant Shuca Berry Relicanth
vs. 232 Naive Life Orb Salamence +1 Earthquake : 42.3% - 50%
252/0 Adamant Shuca Berry Relicanth
vs. 252 Naive Choice Scarf Heatran Earth Power : 34.7% - 40.8%
~~~~~~~
I hope I proved my point. Don't just claim a set is ineffective just because it's unfamiliar; check your calculations before you start claiming whether something will OHKO or not. And for God's sake, don't question the power of STAB Head Smash, cause you'll be hurting if you do. Trust me there, as a CB Aggron user myself. In OU, might I add, where it OHKO's 39 of the 45 (if my memory served right) members of OU with Head Smash, only missing on super defensive rock-resists like Hippowdon and Metagross.
@Cost: I think Earthquake is kinda needed, as shown above, since you can't OHKO standard CS Heatrans. As you probably know, it gets great coverage with Head Smash, with Waterfall hitting anything left. Also, Aqua Tail might be good here for the extra "oomph". You're slow enough that the loss of the 20% flinch rate won't hurt much, unless the slightly lower accuracy is frighting for you. I can see the logic for something reliable when Head Smash (and Stone Edge) have 80% accuracy. Do what you wish.
EDIT: Curse you, Bologo. You beat me to him...
The problem is Relicanth can't get in unless its on a DD. If you switch in on a Ground-type move, Relicanth becomes useless, so you have to come in as a revenge killer rather than being a Solid counter.
Being a Solid Revenge killer to only these 3 means very little, as even Weavile can probably do this same feat.
It doesn't matter if this thing can score KOs, because its so slow, and so risky to switch in, that in the long run it might not even work.
None of what I'm saying is even factoring in Head Smash's somewhat shaky accuracy either.
Being a Solid Revenge killer to only these 3 means very little, as even Weavile can probably do this same feat.
It doesn't matter if this thing can score KOs, because its so slow, and so risky to switch in, that in the long run it might not even work.
None of what I'm saying is even factoring in Head Smash's somewhat shaky accuracy either.
An unboosted EQ from an adamant max attack Gyarados only does 46% - 54.5% to a 252 HP Relicant, 23% - 27.2% with the shuca berry, meaning that even if Gyara "predicts" the switch in, it's never going to 2hko Relicanth. Definitely not the best Gyarados counter in the game, but neither such a poor Pokemon like you're stating.
Oops that's supposed to be 252 atk and 232 hp, and yes I had sandstorm support, I forgot to mention that
And ultimario, I'm not really sure what to say, maybe you're just in a bad mood or something but once you calc and battle with relicanth (properly) you won't and shouldn't disagree with the fact the relicanth works in OU
The specially defensive resttalker is also effective in ou (and suspect!)
And ultimario, I'm not really sure what to say, maybe you're just in a bad mood or something but once you calc and battle with relicanth (properly) you won't and shouldn't disagree with the fact the relicanth works in OU
The specially defensive resttalker is also effective in ou (and suspect!)
Tons of things "work" in OU, but that doesn't mean they're viable in OU.
For example if I want to use Rock Head Head Smash (Which is like the ONLY reason to use Relicanth lol), I'd use something like RP Aggron, which is significantly more of a threat than a Relicanth with a similar goal, except RP Aggron can take out more than 3 Pokemon in the Metagame.
With a mere base 90 Attack, and no Life Orb, lots of things can simply switch into Relicanth and easily outspeed/KO back without taking too much in the process, EX Celebi, Jirachis, Empoleon in some cases, Breloom, Metagross, Probably Rotom, Swampert.
I'm not running Calcs or anything but a huge chunk of the Metagame makes that Relicanth completely useless, and any decent player should be able to see whats going to happen and take advantage of that.
It certainly looks good on paper, but not so much in practice. I've run SS teams quite a bit myself, and I assure you Relicanth would be one of my last decisions, its simply outclassed by lots of other Sandstorm pokemon.
Relicanth is NU for a reason you know.
For example if I want to use Rock Head Head Smash (Which is like the ONLY reason to use Relicanth lol), I'd use something like RP Aggron, which is significantly more of a threat than a Relicanth with a similar goal, except RP Aggron can take out more than 3 Pokemon in the Metagame.
With a mere base 90 Attack, and no Life Orb, lots of things can simply switch into Relicanth and easily outspeed/KO back without taking too much in the process, EX Celebi, Jirachis, Empoleon in some cases, Breloom, Metagross, Probably Rotom, Swampert.
I'm not running Calcs or anything but a huge chunk of the Metagame makes that Relicanth completely useless, and any decent player should be able to see whats going to happen and take advantage of that.
It certainly looks good on paper, but not so much in practice. I've run SS teams quite a bit myself, and I assure you Relicanth would be one of my last decisions, its simply outclassed by lots of other Sandstorm pokemon.
Relicanth is NU for a reason you know.
Um, if it's going to be going up against Heatran, why are there no EV's in Special Defense? Also, like others have said, a counter has to be able to switch in. Venasaur can't do that, as even with 252 HP EV's, 252 Sp. Def EV's, and a Careful nature, Life Orb Heatran's Fire Blast does 101.1% minimum. To switch in, Venasaur would have to carry Occa Berry to be able to switch in, and if it's a Scarftran, you're screwed anyways.
EDIT: Nevermind, even Life Orb Heatran outspeeds if you have no Speed EV's. You would have to have Occa Berry (no idea why you're carrying Black Sludge over Leftovers) and switch in on Earth Power or Hidden Power to have a chance at all.
lol -___-
I know for a fact Cost has used this set, since he's bragged about it to me.
Aggron and Relicanth are two different pokemon lol. Aggron is even more useless in OU than Relicanth. Being 4X weak to the most common types of moves ect.
Base 90 attack isn't bad with a STAB Head Smash, and incredible bulk. You're right, tons of things work in OU but wouldn't that make them viable in OU? Lots of thing have their niches in a metagame, and Relicanth's niche is countering stuff like Gyara, Heatran and Mence.
Porygon-2 does the exact same thing as this Relicanth does, and with even more certainty and effectiveness not being strained to carry Shuca, and can Trace abilities to weaken the offense from the foe, and doesn't have to rely on a move with shaky accuracy. Did Porygon-2 ever take off? Nope.
Porygon-2 never had a STAB attack as powerful as Head Smash. That and Porygon-2 has to worry about Blissey, where Head Smash and Waterfall hits more for Super Effective than Boltbeam does, as well as the lack of defensive behemoths. All of Relicanth's options hits most physical walls for neutral damage (Skarm-Head Smash, Bronzong-Waterfall, Scizor to Head Smash) and none of those physical walls had a minimum HP of 651.
And just because one Pokemon doesn't fly doesn't mean another can't. How well Porygon-2 does is completely irrelevant to how Relicanth does, especially when both carry completely different battling tactics. Porygon 2 is Specially oriented, Relicanth is physical. The only weakness they share is Fighting, and Relicanth has a much easier time setting up on physical attackers anyway because of 130 defense.
And just because one Pokemon doesn't fly doesn't mean another can't. How well Porygon-2 does is completely irrelevant to how Relicanth does, especially when both carry completely different battling tactics. Porygon 2 is Specially oriented, Relicanth is physical. The only weakness they share is Fighting, and Relicanth has a much easier time setting up on physical attackers anyway because of 130 defense.
A particular Celebi that I've been running forever. Not really sure if this is entirely 'creative', but here goes nothing...
Pokemon Name: Celebi
Moveset Name: Offensive
Move 1: Earth Power
Move 2: Hidden Power [Fire]
Move 3: Leaf Storm
Move 4: U-turn
Item: Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
EVs: 36 Def/252 SpA/220 Spe
Well, Celebi's are actually rather half way decent and when the cards are played right, it can pull off a couple of sweeps. The idea here is to take that potential and run with it. I hadn't seen many all-out offensive version of this Pokemon, so I've found that it's rather easy to catch people off guard with this set.
In general, not many Pokemon like taking a STAB Leaf Storm with Life Orb and pretty much any thing that doesn't resist is KO'd by it. U-turn is paired up to shake off the hefty power drop from Leaf Storm and save Celebi from bad match. HP Fire is to put dents in all steel Pokemon that don't happen to be Heatran (works especially well for Scizor since this little fairy lures them out like no tomorrow). Earth Power is to patch up and counter the Fire weakness, primarily Heatran. The combination deals with most of the offensive counters unless they are scarfed.
Admittedly, this set can't take too many hits, but from experience, the versatility makes up for the lack of recovery. Psychic can replace U-turn if you want to hit certain Pokemon like Infernape harder, but I really prefer U-turn.
Pokemon Name: Celebi
Moveset Name: Offensive
Move 1: Earth Power
Move 2: Hidden Power [Fire]
Move 3: Leaf Storm
Move 4: U-turn
Item: Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
EVs: 36 Def/252 SpA/220 Spe
Well, Celebi's are actually rather half way decent and when the cards are played right, it can pull off a couple of sweeps. The idea here is to take that potential and run with it. I hadn't seen many all-out offensive version of this Pokemon, so I've found that it's rather easy to catch people off guard with this set.
In general, not many Pokemon like taking a STAB Leaf Storm with Life Orb and pretty much any thing that doesn't resist is KO'd by it. U-turn is paired up to shake off the hefty power drop from Leaf Storm and save Celebi from bad match. HP Fire is to put dents in all steel Pokemon that don't happen to be Heatran (works especially well for Scizor since this little fairy lures them out like no tomorrow). Earth Power is to patch up and counter the Fire weakness, primarily Heatran. The combination deals with most of the offensive counters unless they are scarfed.
Admittedly, this set can't take too many hits, but from experience, the versatility makes up for the lack of recovery. Psychic can replace U-turn if you want to hit certain Pokemon like Infernape harder, but I really prefer U-turn.
That's pretty much the LO sweeper set listed in the analysis. Celebi needs recover or it won't last enough, imo. Recover\earth power\leaf storm\u-turn is the way to go as long as you have something to deal with Scizor. Psychic is quite a poor move in OU, so I would not even consider it as an option.
I use psychic. It's fine with hp fire and earth power, you can hit all ou darks and steels for SE damage and psychic is better than grass coverage wise. Leaf storm only helps with a ohko on swampert, which doesn't matter at all since swampert can do nothing to celebi, and tyranitar who still gives celebi problems. I liked leftovers/thunder wave over recover/life orb since it let you beat scarf heatran and infernapes that switched in.
Here's something that I just thought of:
Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus.
EVs: 126hp/252 Atk/4Def/128Spe
Adamant nature (+Atk, -Spatk)
- Thunder Punch/Crunch
- Ice Punch
- Close Comabt
- Agility
This similar to the SD Lucario set except it gets a speed bost from Agility. You should use this as a late game or a mid-game sweeper. This set has a few counters such as Swampert and Dusknior. If your worried about Dusknior replace Thunder punch with Crunch, but you lose coverage on water types whom are a pain for Lucario. Ice Punch allows you to hit those annoying dragons.
Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus.
EVs: 126hp/252 Atk/4Def/128Spe
Adamant nature (+Atk, -Spatk)
- Thunder Punch/Crunch
- Ice Punch
- Close Comabt
- Agility
This similar to the SD Lucario set except it gets a speed bost from Agility. You should use this as a late game or a mid-game sweeper. This set has a few counters such as Swampert and Dusknior. If your worried about Dusknior replace Thunder punch with Crunch, but you lose coverage on water types whom are a pain for Lucario. Ice Punch allows you to hit those annoying dragons.
Lucario's Sp. Attack is higher naturally, so a set with Special Attack would do well, too. I would suggest this (based off of your suggestion):
Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus.
EVs: 126hp/252 Sp. Atk/4Def/128Spe
Modest nature (+Spatk, -Atk)
- Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse
- Hidden Power (Ice)
- Aura Sphere
- Agility
This set could OHKO Dragons and Lucario's counter, Gliscor. The set has the same coverage, mostly, as the physical set you recommended. It also is a bit of a Choice Specs Variant (Agility + Life Orb instead of Choice Specs + Vacuum Wave, different EVs) and would catch many of Lucario's checks by surprise.
EDIT @ BlazeMurder, below me: Yeah, but what else does? Not much.
I use an agility lucario with 70 hp evs and 188 speed evs, letting you outspeed even scarf latias/gengar. It's great for taking out gliscors and dragons and a fairly effective sweeper but gyarados is still going to be a problem. Usually people try to get a little too clever predicting aura spheres, and I tend to queue up dark pulses against weakened things(like a jirachi at 30%, dark pulse still kos) and get good hits on latias/rotoms.