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New DPP Tier Lists
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it would have had a chance in OU if Hypnosis' accuracy didn't drop. Blissey could come in easily and ruin Yanmega's parade. in UU, I also don't see it being dominant due to the amount of priority users and I think it is easily handled by the likes of Registeel, Clefable and Clefairy. Steelix could come in also and use Gyro Ball.
Milotic makes walling Slowkings look like trash.
Why does no one use Nasty plot? It is the only thing Milotic can't do better.
Speed boost.
Oh boy Yanmega in UU and Smeargle in OU?
Well thanks for the list X-Act
Well thanks for the list X-Act
I'm definitely looking forward to the introduction of Yanmega to UU, and I hope nobody is taking the 'OMG overpowered, obviously BL' hype at all seriously. People should know better than that now, especially after all the unfounded crap spewed prior to the nUU revamp.
Interestingly enough, I recently made a new team that contains Flareon of all Pokes, completely independent of the announcement of Yanmega's introduction. It is already a useful and underrated Pokemon in UU, but with this new introduction it may turn out to be of even greater use. Then again, people might now be more determined to keep SR on the field as a result of Yanmega's presence, so the argument goes both ways I guess. Regardless, I can't wait to see how things pan out!
On another note I'm kinda relieved that Smeargle is out, what with the endless paranoia of what exactly it is going to do (of all the endless possibilities) every time it appears.
Interestingly enough, I recently made a new team that contains Flareon of all Pokes, completely independent of the announcement of Yanmega's introduction. It is already a useful and underrated Pokemon in UU, but with this new introduction it may turn out to be of even greater use. Then again, people might now be more determined to keep SR on the field as a result of Yanmega's presence, so the argument goes both ways I guess. Regardless, I can't wait to see how things pan out!
On another note I'm kinda relieved that Smeargle is out, what with the endless paranoia of what exactly it is going to do (of all the endless possibilities) every time it appears.
Of course I know you played old UU. That is precisely why I was disappointed by your comments.
And that lead to a different metagame, no matter how much you argue. Things effective in old UU aren't going to be as effective in new UU, and I bet there are some things in new UU that aren't going to work as well in old UU. The set of Pokemon is different, how are you going to say "well Pokemon A,B,C was useful in metagame 1 but not in metagame 2... well that means metagame 1 is "ineffectual, warped"... yeah figure out the fallacy there, please.
Why does it not make sense? If it is because of the reasoning above, that's a complete fallacy. Are you arguing that, because we have made a new tier with an arbitrary cut off (i'm not saying OU is arbitrary, i'm saying creating UU based on OU usage is based on some arbitrary definition of a tier we created) somehow happened to be "different" from another one it's "balanced"?
Please, you can argue that the banlist was WRONG only based on our definition of tiers but you can't ever, ever, argue that the metagame was "WRONG" mostly because given any metagame, people WILL attempt to win. The tierlist are created based off some arbitrary philosophy. It may be "wrong" based on the philosophy in question. Does not make the results "wrong" or "twisted" because it doesn't adhere to that philosophy.
Let's use your Scizor example, and apply it to what you have said
"Scizor is #1 OU now, but was almost BL when we started... the metagame when we first started is "wrong", "twisted", whatever you want to call it".
You can obviously see the fallacy here. It IS about the environment. It CHANGES, and you recognize that. Are you also going to argue that "Well wobbuffet is now a very solid Uber... the entire uber metagame before was wrong"? This is the logic you're tinkering with, mind you... your example hurts you because you're applying this logic to your precious UU but not anywhere else
"Clefable was useful in metagame A, and metagame B". Blissey is useful in Ubers AND OU. What's your point? Are those metagames anywhere similar? Think about it...
I'm surprised that Electivire and Ninjask are still OU after so long. I guess noobs never learn just how bad they are. :|
All NFEs are allowed in all tiers unless they are mentioned on one of the usage/ban lists (ie. Wynaut on Ubers list and Chansey on UU list). So yeah, Kadabra and Haunter are actually NU right now.
Oh come on, surely you of all people can see that this is a strawman argument with regards to its primary context, although I admit that the part of Chou's post that you quoted was somewhat ambiguous. He was saying that environment is not the only aspect to take into account, but also how the metagame evolves internally within the same environment, which is what has happened with Wobbuffet and Lucario's spike in Uber usage. Scizor has become a dominant force in OU not just because of a shift in the metagame, but because of the external changes brought about by Platinum. Similarly, with the UU revamp dozens of new Pokemon were thrown in at once, leading to changes in usefulness of Pokemon as a result of a significant external factor, not a metagame shift.
I do agree with you though that the state of new UU is completely irrelevant to how 'wrong' or 'screwed up' the old UU should be perceived to be. The old UU was fundamentally wrong because it was initialized under false pretenses that were inconsistent with Smogon's Philosophy. Nothing else to it. How the new UU appears in comparison has no bearing whatsoever on this. Even if it turned out that all previous BLs deserved to be BL after all and UU ended up exactly the same, the old system would remain equally flawed because said Pokes were never proven BL in the first place and were not given a fair chance.
I just think that you two are overexaggerating a relatively minor issue to absurdity here.
@Lemmiwinks-- I don't mind, let's go to absurdity. People here are so in love with pure logic that common sense rarely gets a chance.
If you want to be a completely logic-to-logic, facts only "you can't prove this applies to that because they are different," then sure I can't talk to you nor prove my point.
However, that's not the case Tangerine, and I am sure even you will admit/are aware of that despite changes in conditions, sets, rules, metagames, at the end of the day each pokemon is just a set of data, and that data does not change despite people knowing/not knowing how to use it in certain ways.
What I am getting at is that while [some] pokemon certainly change over time, this is not the case for all, and regardless changes aren't usually so rapid that you can't say something about what "innate abilities" a pokemon has.
Electivire will always be a relatively slow sweeper with great coverage who just can't seem to hit hard enough. Lucario will always have the ability to be a great swords dance sweeper but also have capacity for other offensive sets. Suicune will always be a nice bulky water with heavy use but not necessarily the poke that instills the most fear. (Insert the word "likely" into all of the above sentances in the appropriate place)
Sure there is room for creativity, but there are also limits to that creativity. As much special defense I pump into scizor (and mine runs careful with over 400 evs in hp/sp.def), it's never going to be a special wall, and while it sure does a better job than adamant at switching into starmie and pursuiting it to death, it can't afford to do that repeatedly.
Yes a pokemon changes with the conditions around it, but also yes that there are things we can say about its abilities regardless of what is going around it. There is the context, but there is also the pokemon itself. If there was nothing innate to the pokemon's own abilities, tiering pokemon would have no purpose.
Because usage is an indicator of strength (at least that is common belief, we can argue about that too if you want). While I would agree that it is best taken into reference and thought about more openly, as a generalization, usage is based on competitive strength/usefullness.
Just because you change the context does not mean what information you have about the subject is not of use. The subject is still the subject.
You're right that it's not "definite" but it's the best indicator we have, and that's why we use it in teiring process. The fact is that old UU does not exists anywhere in these usage stats because pokes we banned on our assumptions are actually weaker than we thought.
If you want to bash me for getting swept up in information that is, sure, "limited," or "apt to change" over time, sure, I'll admit that my initial comment wasn't justifiable and I'll apolgize for that. Sorry that I am not exactly expecting to have to write a statistician's summary on an internet forum about a children's video game.
While the data might not have a "perfect" applicability to looking back on old UU, I do not think it's fair to say that there's no application at all. That's how data works, it's never perfect, but you use what you have, make simplifying assumptions like "usage stats are indicator's of a pokemon's strength" and you live with whatever error there might be in the statements you make for lack of better information.
That or you just sit on your ass and twiddle your fingers because you are too scared about not being able to be 100% right about everything.
Whether it be old UU or new UU, we were both trying to create a tier based on real competitive abilities of the pokemon.
That seems kind of unfair considering I was obviously talking about bullet punch Scizor, and that scizor's never been out of the top 5 since it got Bullet Punch.
Well, it's hard to continue this discussion because ubers can't be wrong/right because it's a ban tier but . . . I was simply making a point that pokemon have certain abilities. The environment can change or not change around them, but that does not completely dictate what a pokemon is/is not capable of doing.
Inversely, are you going to say Blissey's usage stats say nothing about it's competitive abilities? Are you going to say that Kyogre's usage stats in Ubers has nothing to do about what our opinion of it in OU would be? Yeah OU is a different meta from Ubers, but Kyogre is still Kyogre.
If you want to be a completely logic-to-logic, facts only "you can't prove this applies to that because they are different," then sure I can't talk to you nor prove my point.
However, that's not the case Tangerine, and I am sure even you will admit/are aware of that despite changes in conditions, sets, rules, metagames, at the end of the day each pokemon is just a set of data, and that data does not change despite people knowing/not knowing how to use it in certain ways.
What I am getting at is that while [some] pokemon certainly change over time, this is not the case for all, and regardless changes aren't usually so rapid that you can't say something about what "innate abilities" a pokemon has.
Electivire will always be a relatively slow sweeper with great coverage who just can't seem to hit hard enough. Lucario will always have the ability to be a great swords dance sweeper but also have capacity for other offensive sets. Suicune will always be a nice bulky water with heavy use but not necessarily the poke that instills the most fear. (Insert the word "likely" into all of the above sentances in the appropriate place)
Sure there is room for creativity, but there are also limits to that creativity. As much special defense I pump into scizor (and mine runs careful with over 400 evs in hp/sp.def), it's never going to be a special wall, and while it sure does a better job than adamant at switching into starmie and pursuiting it to death, it can't afford to do that repeatedly.
Yes a pokemon changes with the conditions around it, but also yes that there are things we can say about its abilities regardless of what is going around it. There is the context, but there is also the pokemon itself. If there was nothing innate to the pokemon's own abilities, tiering pokemon would have no purpose.
Because usage is an indicator of strength (at least that is common belief, we can argue about that too if you want). While I would agree that it is best taken into reference and thought about more openly, as a generalization, usage is based on competitive strength/usefullness.
Just because you change the context does not mean what information you have about the subject is not of use. The subject is still the subject.
You're right that it's not "definite" but it's the best indicator we have, and that's why we use it in teiring process. The fact is that old UU does not exists anywhere in these usage stats because pokes we banned on our assumptions are actually weaker than we thought.
If you want to bash me for getting swept up in information that is, sure, "limited," or "apt to change" over time, sure, I'll admit that my initial comment wasn't justifiable and I'll apolgize for that. Sorry that I am not exactly expecting to have to write a statistician's summary on an internet forum about a children's video game.
While the data might not have a "perfect" applicability to looking back on old UU, I do not think it's fair to say that there's no application at all. That's how data works, it's never perfect, but you use what you have, make simplifying assumptions like "usage stats are indicator's of a pokemon's strength" and you live with whatever error there might be in the statements you make for lack of better information.
That or you just sit on your ass and twiddle your fingers because you are too scared about not being able to be 100% right about everything.
Whether it be old UU or new UU, we were both trying to create a tier based on real competitive abilities of the pokemon.
That seems kind of unfair considering I was obviously talking about bullet punch Scizor, and that scizor's never been out of the top 5 since it got Bullet Punch.
Well, it's hard to continue this discussion because ubers can't be wrong/right because it's a ban tier but . . . I was simply making a point that pokemon have certain abilities. The environment can change or not change around them, but that does not completely dictate what a pokemon is/is not capable of doing.
Inversely, are you going to say Blissey's usage stats say nothing about it's competitive abilities? Are you going to say that Kyogre's usage stats in Ubers has nothing to do about what our opinion of it in OU would be? Yeah OU is a different meta from Ubers, but Kyogre is still Kyogre.
Expect to see an influx in registeels ;).
Along with this, I think there is going to be even more of a need to have SR, and spinners too. With Hitmontop to keep SR off the feild, people will have to start bieng more creative with their ghosts.
I was talking about this with some people, and that also came up.
But the argument against the "tinted lens", is that it is so easy to deal with when it's slow like that. Not to mention, sets such as that have to switch out often, and SR will just eat at Yanmega's HP if it gets into a situation where it's just too slow.
The concern is with the Speed Boost variant, because you can't outspeed it with a Choice Scarfer.
Rest talk registeel walls it completely.
Stealth Rock is so deadly to it, you can probably get away with just Arcanine with Roar and a Wish passer. Works for both, since with Speed Boost it can't 2HKO, and with Tinted Lens it can't outspeed. =P
But yeah, it's going to shake things up quite a bit. Moltres was already annoying enough - imagine Scarf Moltres without needing the Scarf and you have Speed Boost Yanmega. Imagine the same with Specs for Tinted Lens. If it weren't so frail, it could probably even pull off that damn SubRoost strategy... god, I hate SubRoost...
But yeah, it's going to shake things up quite a bit. Moltres was already annoying enough - imagine Scarf Moltres without needing the Scarf and you have Speed Boost Yanmega. Imagine the same with Specs for Tinted Lens. If it weren't so frail, it could probably even pull off that damn SubRoost strategy... god, I hate SubRoost...
Speed boost with hp ground does 2hko, and tinted lens speed ties.
It'll need a bit of Special Defense EVs, but surely prediction helps here. If it uses HP Ground, and it's Moltres, it's fucked. So it becomes much smarter to use Air Slash, but Air Slash doesn't K.O., while you still OHKO back even without EV investment. At least, that's how I see it. And I did say "with Tinted Lens it can't outspeed." It may be a tie, but that's equal risk for both parties - either you lose Arcanine or they lose Yanmega. "Gee, I wonder who is more valuable to whom?"
Considering Arcanine was your only Yanmega check, I'd say Arcanine.
but then yanmega is in with 50% health without a speed boost, and anyone faster can come in and fuck that shit up. yanmega does seem kinda strong though... only time will tell
I'll let you figure out why this statement is ridiculous, arrogant, and pompous... especially since... you don't seem to understand my point at all (then again...)
Anyway, to respond your entire post.
Yes, I know each Pokemon is unique. Yes, each Pokemon is powerful in its own way. However, the biggest part of team building is metagaming, IE, choosing effective Pokemon based on what other people are running.
If we choose only based on what each Pokemon can do without thinking about anything else, then the metagame is 100% static. It's easy to see that this is not the case. Then what brings about the changes? because people observe the metagame and make choices based on it. What is effective, what is not, depends on the metagame.
What is the metagame made of? it's made of all the available choices within that tier. What does this mean? People will metagame differently depending on the restrictions given. What does this mean? Banlists will be different.
Let's leave it there. You seem to be into economics, let's see if you can apply it here and figure out what i'm talking about :)
Smeargle OU? Thats not surprising...i always knew he had the potency to be a threat and it just proved that
Good work. Nice to know I can smash people with Yanmega AND Ambipom in UU now. :D
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