Noble Items

[Cookie Butter]

Since we haven't gotten a final statement on the Twisted Spoon and Odd Incense, I'm skipping those.

Let's see... I suppose my Twisted Spoon wins because I vote for myself. If it proves itself to be broken, there's a thought-out solution already. Odd Incense, on the other hand, seems harder to fix and even more broken... If I voted for your version, it'd be a tie, and if I voted for mine, we'd have to change the effect in some way. Got any suggestions?

The Mind Plate is a stallmon's dream item, blocking pretty much everything that can interfere with their stalling. (Excepting being Tricked a Choice item or Assault Vest)

Random question- would mind plate counteract honey, through virtue of a taunt immunity?

Honey and Dread Plate Taunt are possibilities for stall interference. Mind Plate doesn't protect the user from items or offensive moves, terrain restrictions or something else.

 

[Ghoul King]

Well, a tweaked version of the Odd Incense I would find more acceptable (In some ways more powerful, but more consistently counterable, so overall less broken) would instead to make it turn all neutral interactions into super effectives -your Psychic moves are super effective against anything that isn't Dark, Steel, or Psychic, while you are vulnerable to any move that isn't Psychic or Fighting. (Or more accurately your Psychic typing takes on these properties -Slowbro would be neutral to Water, Fire, Ice, and Steel, and doubly weak to Electric and Grass, for instance) This would be very powerful, effectively doubling your damage output in many situations, but it also makes it easy to revenge you/kill you in general. (It also would shift away from "kill everything with Slowbro" to "try to kill things with Alakazam and hope they have no priority")

How's that?

 

[Cookie Butter]

The voting phase has ended! Thanks everyone for the wait!

Stone Plate | The holder's Normal type moves become Rock type and have an increased critical hit ratio. (by Ghoul King)

Hard Rock | Tie between Ghoul King and me. Which submission is better in your opinion and why?

• Ghoul King: On switch-in, the user hurls the Hard Stone at the opponent. This is a 50 BP, 100 Accuracy Rock type move (It can get STAB) with a 100% Flinch rate, and consumes the Hard Stone.
• the someone: If the holder is a Fossil Pokemon, the holder's Rock Polish also triggers Softboiled upon use.

Rock Incense | Any Status move the holder uses additionally attempts to set Sandstorm. (It will fail in the face of Desolate Land, Primordial Sea, and Delta Stream) The holder is immune to Sandstorm. (by Ghoul King)

Protector | Holder's Defense is increased to 1.5x, but its Speed is reduced to 0.5x. If the holder is a Rhyperior, its Defense is increased to 2x. (by Sanctuary)

• Note: We had a five-way tie (yes, a new record) between Tarontos, Draco Blue, Chopin Alkaninoff, the someone and Sanctuary. I moved one of my points given to myself by myself to Sanctuary.

Lagging Tail | Allows Onix and Steelix to hit twice, with a second hit being 30% of the first. (by the someone)

In addition, the someone's Twisted Spoon and the someone's Odd Incense tweaked by Ghoul King will be added.

New Items for Submission:
(Note: Please try and do all if possible. Thank you.)

Hide

Fairy slate

Pixie Plate

Whipped Dream

Sachet

Sweet Heart

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=

Well, a tweaked version of the Odd Incense I would find more acceptable (In some ways more powerful, but more consistently counterable, so overall less broken) would instead to make it turn all neutral interactions into super effectives -your Psychic moves are super effective against anything that isn't Dark, Steel, or Psychic, while you are vulnerable to any move that isn't Psychic or Fighting. (Or more accurately your Psychic typing takes on these properties -Slowbro would be neutral to Water, Fire, Ice, and Steel, and doubly weak to Electric and Grass, for instance) This would be very powerful, effectively doubling your damage output in many situations, but it also makes it easy to revenge you/kill you in general. (It also would shift away from "kill everything with Slowbro" to "try to kill things with Alakazam and hope they have no priority")

How's that?

That seems a lot more balanced, and the flavor I used is maintained. I like it. Seems like mono-psychic types and/or dual-types with immunities would be more prone to using it. I have a question about it though. You said the item's effect is to turn all neutral interactions into super effective, but when you mentioned Slowbro, it's resistances become neutral, so what exactly happens? Turning resistances into neutrals defensively would make it more balanced, but if we mirrored the effect to offenses, we'd end up with spammable Psychic moves again (well, Dark wouldn't be affected).

 

[Tarontos]

pixie plate
If the holder has a normal type the holder replaces normal with fairy, the holders normal type moves become fairy type and have their power increased by 1.3
Notable users, digersby, many normal types(ursaring as an anti mawile lead)
flavorful because of the normal to fairy type changes inbetween gen 5 and 6

whipped dream
rest talk does not choose rest and sets the priority of rest talk to zero(after abilities)
Shall i note the uses?
0 priority phasing, 100%recovery in one-turn, genericly less hacks on that kind of build
i have had thi effect in mind for a while and i thought something named dream made sense.

Sachet
while this is on the field the effects of all opponent abilities/items are nullified
Let me see-screw over item reliant builds
everything
no real flavor it is just realy stinky

Sweet heart(work in progress)
moves that have drain also deal the amount drained to the target(no infinite loop healing)
draining moves have much more power, leech seed deals signifigant damge
this item sounds vampire like to me.

I like ghoul kings hard rock Better. The potential for a dual lead build is intruiging. (Think about it, i lead with a fast uturn mon switch out to what is holding this item and proceed to bash what ever he has out

 

[Ghoul King]

That seems a lot more balanced, and the flavor I used is maintained. I like it. Seems like mono-psychic types and/or dual-types with immunities would be more prone to using it. I have a question about it though. You said the item's effect is to turn all neutral interactions into super effective, but when you mentioned Slowbro, it's resistances become neutral, so what exactly happens? Turning resistances into neutrals defensively would make it more balanced, but if we mirrored the effect to offenses, we'd end up with spammable Psychic moves again (well, Dark wouldn't be affected).

I meant that the item modifies your Psychic typing's type chart interactions, such that neutral hits against you become super effective, and this in turn interacts in the usual way with being dual-typed -just pretend that the type chart has Psychic weak to everything except Fighting and Psychic and super effective against everything except Dark, Steel, and Psychic. Thus, Slowbro holding the item is neutral to Water, Fire, Ice, and Steel (Because Water resists those, but Psychic is vulnerable) and doubly weak to Grass and Electric (Because Water's weakness stacks with Psychic's weakness), and Psychic moves will do x4 damage against any dual-type that isn't part Steel, Psychic, or Dark, because both types are "vulnerable" to the Psychic type. (If neither type is Steel, Psychic, or Dark)

The way Freeze Dry works can be helpful for thinking about the offensive component -an Ice move is neutral on Gyarados (Flying is weak, Water is resistant), but Freeze Dry is ultra-effective. (Flying is weak, Water is weak)

Anyway, I prefer my own Hard Rock entry. The fossil Pokemon are largely fragile (Whether via stats or typing or both), and the biggest exception -Bastiodon- hates raising its Speed. (Because Metal Burst has neutral priority) So Polishboiled for fossil Pokemon in specific seems really iffy as something to commit an item slot to.

Also wow, really, a 5-way tie?

Pixie Plate: Replaces the holder's Normal typing with Fairy typing. The holder's Normal type moves become Fairy type moves.
Flavor: Similar reasoning to Tarontos; a fair number of the Fairy Pokemon that currently exist using to be Normal typed.
Competitive: Fairy is an excellent defensive typing, and in particular resists Normal's one weakness, making it a bit of a nasty surprise to have the enemy Close Combat into Blissey for ineffective damage when they're expecting an easy OHKO. In exchange, it's a weak (non-existent) offensive boost, compared to other Plates.

Whipped Dream: The holder's HP is restored by 1/8 at the end of each turn, but their Attack and Special Attack are lowered by one stage each as well at the end of each turn.
Flavor: Sucking on candy sure is relaxing. And better than a half-eaten apple.
Competitive: Super Leftovers that damages your offense, making it primarily a stallmon choice, and not even all of them.

Sachet: At the end of every turn, the Evasion of all Pokemon on the field is lowered by one stage.
Flavor: Think of Sweet Scent's effect, but amplified and passive and item-based.
Competitive: For Pokemon with powerful, inaccurate moves like Hurricane and Thunder, can make more sense to run than a Life Orb. (Hurricane, in particular, is a more than 50% increase in damage over the next runner up, Air Slash) It can also assist support-oriented builds, with mostly-accurate moves like Leech Seed, Sleep Powder, etc.

Sweet Heart: When KOed, the holder's health and PP are fully restored, their status conditions are cleared, and they become infatuated with the foe and trapped until the foe leaves. Cannot be restored by Recycle nor received by Pickup.
Flavor: The power of LOVE. Side effects may include being unable to leave your darling abusive sweetheart and difficulty bringing yourself to harm them.
Competitive: Risky, and probably won't help if you were trapped by a counter anyway, but it can allow you to power through a number of different ways to KO you and keep going. Obviously a dream item for Hyper Offense Pokemon, particularly ones with Volt Switch or U-Turn. And of course a Ghost can simply switch out after revival.

 

[Cookie Butter]

Thanks everyone!
Now it's time to vote!

First Choice:UserX
Second Choice:UserY
Third Choice:UserZ

The First Choice gets 3 points, second gets 2 and third gets 1. The user with most votes will have their submission added into the project itself.

Pixie Plate

If the holder has a normal type the holder replaces normal with fairy, the holders normal type moves become fairy type and have their power increased by 1.3 - Tarontos

Replaces the holder's Normal typing with Fairy typing. The holder's Normal type moves become Fairy type moves. - Ghoul King
Any Status move the holder uses additionally attempts to set Misty Terrain. The holder takes half damage from Dragon-type moves. - the someone

Whipped Dream

rest talk does not choose rest and sets the priority of rest talk to zero(after abilities) - Tarontos

The holder's HP is restored by 1/8 at the end of each turn, but their Attack and Special Attack are lowered by one stage each as well at the end of each turn. - Ghoul King
When the holder uses Belly Drum, it's Whipped Dream is used instead of HP, but the holder is put to sleep after 4 turns unless it's Slurpuff. - the someone

Sachet

while this is on the field the effects of all opponent abilities/items are nullified - Tarontos

At the end of every turn, the Evasion of all Pokemon on the field is lowered by one stage.- Ghoul King
The holder's Status moves have a 50% chance of causing infatuation (100% if Aromatisse). - the someone

Sweet Heart

moves that have drain also deal the amount drained to the target(no infinite loop healing) - Tarontos
When KOed, the holder's health and PP are fully restored, their status conditions are cleared, and they become infatuated with the foe and trapped until the foe leaves. Cannot be restored by Recycle nor received by Pickup. - Ghoul King
Holder's contact moves have their BP calculated with Return's formula, but their secondary effects are removed (Multi-hit moves are not affected by this). - the someone

Send your votes to me via PM.

To keep this thread active in this phase, here are some questions

• Are there any items you want to see in the next slate? (Types only, we've got Normal, Grass and Electric left)
• Which entries for this week do you agree/disagree with? [Remember: Be to the point and decisive, no hate]
• Are there any new possible strategies/sets that can be made with the last week's items?
• What Pokemon take advantage from those items?
• Also, Ghoul King's Hard Rock wins.

=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

I meant that the item modifies your Psychic typing's type chart interactions, such that neutral hits against you become super effective, and this in turn interacts in the usual way with being dual-typed -just pretend that the type chart has Psychic weak to everything except Fighting and Psychic and super effective against everything except Dark, Steel, and Psychic. Thus, Slowbro holding the item is neutral to Water, Fire, Ice, and Steel (Because Water resists those, but Psychic is vulnerable) and doubly weak to Grass and Electric (Because Water's weakness stacks with Psychic's weakness), and Psychic moves will do x4 damage against any dual-type that isn't part Steel, Psychic, or Dark, because both types are "vulnerable" to the Psychic type. (If neither type is Steel, Psychic, or Dark)

The way Freeze Dry works can be helpful for thinking about the offensive component -an Ice move is neutral on Gyarados (Flying is weak, Water is resistant), but Freeze Dry is ultra-effective. (Flying is weak, Water is weak)

Oh, I see.

My reasoning for this week's slate

Pixie Plate:
Flavor: God's magical rock serves as a single tile able to change the entire floor/terrain. (Also keeps consistency with Rock Incense and Meadow and Zap Plates which I'll certainly submit similarly)
Competitive: It's a good item for set-up sweepers, since Misty Terrain makes all Pokemon on field immune to Burns, Paralyses, Toxics, etc and they'd need a Status move to set up anyway. It's also a good way to stop Restalk users, since Rest fails to work. Defensive Dragon types can sacrifice their STAB power in exchange for a resistance which would otherwise be a weakness. They can also use the plate without using Status moves, but that'd be more situational...

Whipped Dream:
Flavor: Eat this and it won't hurt when you use your belly as a drum. But you'll become sleepy.
Competitive: Unburden Swirlix bonanza. Plus other Pokemon can use Belly Drum without taking as many risks.

Sachet:
Flavor: The power of it's fragrance makes all Pokemon lovey-dovey.
Competitive: Yey for Haxx. This + Confuse Ray can immobilize sweepers or walls or whatever is at the other side.

Sweet Heart:
Flavor: Returning the love.
Competitive: This is a great item for Pokemon with weaker moves, almost like Technician. Moves equal or weaker than 80 BP become the equivalent of boosts equal or higher than x1.275. It's incredibly good for 40 BP priority moves (not E-Speed, because they'd rather use physically-oriented -ate Plates), which gain a boost of x2.55. U-Turn greatly benefits as well, with the equivalent of a x1.46 boost. Overall, Pokemon with moves weaker than 100 BP are boosted a little. Not all moves become Return, however, since their accuracy might still be bad.

 

[Tarontos]

Clarifactions on the someone's sachet,
does this only include status moves that target someone(wow, sing,swagger, ect.), or does it also work if the user uses an internal move(wish,recover,Swords dance, ect)

and one on your sweet heart:
lets see how hard some things hit.

252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 232-274 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Tyrantrum Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 175-206 (51.3 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Tyrantrum Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 261-308 (76.5 - 90.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Mega Launcher Clawitzer Water Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 259-306 (75.9 - 89.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Clawitzer Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 346-408 (101.4 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO(not neutral)

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 204-240 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 408-480 (119.6 - 140.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 174-205 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 340-402 (99.7 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Iron Fist Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 346-408 (101.4 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO(same for drain punch)

note these are engineered neutral for the most part.
and from what i can remember bonus crit chances don't count as an secondary effect so frost breath could hurt, neither do drain moves, or rapid spin, or Fell stinger.

Electric sounds like a good slate, magnet is ripe for a trapping ability.

 

[Ghoul King]

and from what i can remember bonus crit chances don't count as an secondary effect so frost breath could hurt, neither do drain moves, or rapid spin, or Fell stinger.

http://www.serebii.net/abilitydex/sheerforce.shtml

A lit of moves affected by Sheer Force, which is the best determiner of whether a move has a "secondary effect" or not.

Short version is: yes, all of those are exempt. Frost Breath is unaffected by the item though, because it's not contact. Storm Throw, however, is effectively a 153 BP move that you can spam freely. More alarmingly, Knock Off becomes a 153 BP move on first hit and remains a 102 BP move on future hits. (Pangoro, Throh, and Pinsir all get both)

Fell Stinger isn't actually so bad, because Genesect and Drapion are the only reasonably good Pokemon that get it, and they both have, among other points, Speed problems. Also Genesect is banned from OU anyway.

But yeah priority is scary stuff with this. I'm not a fan of the entry.

Are there any new possible strategies/sets that can be made with the last week's items?

The Stone Plate is of course a fairly straightforward improvement over Stone Edge (More Power, better Accuracy, same critical hit ratio), but also provides interesting Special Rock coverage to myriad Pokemon with Boomburst or Hyper Voice. (Or Techno Blast, in Genesect's case) Aurorus is the only Rock type that can take particular advantage on the Special end, but given that its best Special Rock move is Ancient Power, the improvement is legitimately notable, especially once Snow Warning is released and it can run Stone Plate Hyper Voice+Hail-backed Blizzard.

The Hard Rock is of course amazing in conjunction with fast U-Turns and Volt Switches (Not being held by the switchers, mind), and in general ensures that any Pokemon can switch in one time -or more times, if you are willing to run Recycle! Since it is a Rock typed attack, it can also be used to severely injure or outright KO key Pokemon that are weak or doubly weak to Rock, and since it occurs on switch-in the enemy may have no warning before it occurs. Conversely, the Hard Rock is unusually vulnerable to being "wasted" by force-switching effects, as well as to less-than-ideal switches -cases where you don't need the Hard Rock to be thrown for this particular switch, and would really rather hold off until later, but nope you use it on your first switch-in, even if it's a Steelix your switch-in fears nothing from.

The Protector is basically a super reverse Assault Vest... assuming you don't care about Speed, or are a Trick Room Pokemon. For faster Pokemon that might want to patch up their Defense, like Alakazam, the trade-off is too huge to be worth it. An interesting variation on the Assault Vest, basically.

Lastly, the Lagging Tail is essentially a Life Orb with extremely narrow secondary benefits but no cost, and restricted to one evolutionary line. Moves Steelix can meaningfully use it with: Bulldoze (You're probably not going to outrun anything anyway, use Earthquake), Body Slam (Well, 50%-ish Paralysis chance is nice...), Crunch (Approximately 27% chance of lowering Defense isn't amazing), Iron Tail (Prone to missing, but a 50%-ish shot at lowering their Defense one stage when you do hit is pretty decent, actually), and lastly, if you just want to make your opponent rage quit, there's Mud Slap to sharply lower their Accuracy.

In a word: useless. Makes more sense to run Steelixite in a Sand team, or not run the Pokemon at all.

 

[Cookie Butter]

Clarifactions on the someone's sachet,
does this only include status moves that target someone(wow, sing,swagger, ect.), or does it also work if the user uses an internal move(wish,recover,Swords dance, ect)

All status moves. It's a scent, after all. Sweet Scent affects both foes and all, so...

and one on your sweet heart:
lets see how hard some things hit.
-snip-
note these are engineered neutral for the most part.

Yeah, that does seem fairly strong, but we can revisit the numbers later. And keep in mind most moves would be stronger with other items because of their high BP, and items like Muscle Band and Fist Plate (and -ate Plates partly) are as widespread as Sweet Heart. I'm not saying there's always a better or equally viable item (physical Aegislash has no reason not to run this), but it's not a monstrocity. Oh, and Crawitzer doesn't get boost because it only works on contact moves.

Engeneered to be neutral as well

+1 252+ Atk Iron Fist Conkeldurr Mach/Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 346-408 (101.4 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs
+1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 382-451 (112 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (and this has recovery while the other one doesn't. But then again, Mach Punch has priority.)

252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet/Crabhammer/Night Slash/other STABs vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 232-274 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Crawdaunt Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 116-137 (34 - 40.1%) -- 37.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
vs
252+ Atk Shoal Salt Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0+ Def Mew: 308-364 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Shoal Salt Adaptability Crawdaunt Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 238-282 (69.7 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Crawdaunt Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 136-160 (39.8 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Tyrantrum Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 171-202 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tyrantrum Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 114-135 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(^for the two above, no contact, no change)
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Tyrantrum Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 175-206 (51.3 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
vs
252+ Atk Muscle Band Tyrantrum Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 256-303 (75 - 88.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Muscle Band Tyrantrum Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 171-202 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(^since Muscle Band boost attack not contact moves, these would be boosted)
252+ Atk Muscle Band Strong Jaw Tyrantrum Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 166-196 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I'd vote for the idea, not the power. :P

and from what i can remember bonus crit chances don't count as an secondary effect so frost breath could hurt, neither do drain moves, or rapid spin, or Fell stinger.

http://www.serebii.net/abilitydex/sheerforce.shtml

A lit of moves affected by Sheer Force, which is the best determiner of whether a move has a "secondary effect" or not.

Short version is: yes, all of those are exempt. Frost Breath is unaffected by the item though, because it's not contact. Storm Throw, however, is effectively a 153 BP move that you can spam freely. More alarmingly, Knock Off becomes a 153 BP move on first hit and remains a 102 BP move on future hits. (Pangoro, Throh, and Pinsir all get both)

Fell Stinger isn't actually so bad, because Genesect and Drapion are the only reasonably good Pokemon that get it, and they both have, among other points, Speed problems. Also Genesect is banned from OU anyway.

Sorry for the lack of better wording. Those effects would all be removed. The idea is to make different Return types, except that they have different priorities and accuracies. And I noticed U-turn would also have it's effect removed, so don't mind that part where I mention it.
On an unrelated note, Genesect will probably be unbanned shortly for testing purposes if there's no item that makes it overwhelmingly stronger.

But yeah priority is scary stuff with this. I'm not a fan of the entry.

252+ Atk Sweet Heart Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 163-193 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Iron Plate Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 166-196 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
When was this metagame not scary? :P
On a serious note, Lucario would also rather use Iron Plate to keep Close Combat's power at 120 BP. I'm sure it'd like 102 BP Ice Punch though... both are viable.
I do agree that a lot more Pokemon would become incredibly viable revenge killers because of the other priority moves being more common though. Well, King's Rock is there for something.

 

[Cookie Butter]

The voting phase has ended! Sorry for the delay!

Pixie Plate | If the holder has a normal type the holder replaces normal with fairy, the holders normal type moves become fairy type and have their power increased by 1.3 (by Tarontos)

Whipped Dream | When the holder uses Belly Drum, it's Whipped Dream is used instead of HP, but the holder is put to sleep after 4 turns unless it's Slurpuff. (by the someone)

Sachet | Tie between Ghoul King and me. Which submission is better in your opinion and why?

• Ghoul King: At the end of every turn, the Evasion of all Pokemon on the field is lowered by one stage.
• the someone: The holder's Status moves have a 50% chance of causing infatuation (100% if Aromatisse).

Sweet Heart | Holder's contact moves have their BP calculated with Return's formula, but their secondary effects are removed (Multi-hit moves are not affected by this). (by the someone) - If anyone wants to think of a small nerf to this (just in case) for the revision phase, PM me with it or something.

New Items for Submission:
(Note: Please try and do all if possible. Thank you.)

Hide

Electric slate part 1

Zap Plate

Magnet

Electirizer

Cell Battery

 

[Ghoul King]

I prefer my version of the Sachet just because constant random Infatuation is a horrifying idea. Welcome to RNG, the game. No thanks. It is presumably limited by gender shenanigans, but most people don't even bother to set gender on their Pokemon so they can randomly find themselves with an all-male/all-female team and thus have no meaningful switch-in on the effect. It's also just evil in conjunction with setup moves.

The normal Return Formula divides Happiness by 2.5 and declares the result to be BP. If we instead say the Sweet Heart divides Happiness by 3 max happiness produces 85 BP, which is respectable -amazing with the right moves- but not "stronger than Earthquake with any type you want". That would be a straightforward way of patching the Sweet Heart without changing the idea fundamentally.

Zap Plate: The holder's Normal type moves become Electric and gain a 20% chance of Paralyzing on impact.
Flavor: Zzzzzaaap!
Competitive: Instead of power, the Zap Plate offers utility; typing and Paralysis chance, specifically.

Magnet: Steel and Electric type moves miss the holder.
Flavor: Magnetic redirection.
Competitive: Patch particular weaknesses -Fairies love screwing with people who think Steel is the more reliable weakness to pick on- or aid team synergy more broadly. Note that any case of skipping Accuracy ignores this -Magnet Bomb, Shockwave, and No Guard-assisted attacks are fine. It's not an immunity.

Electirizer: If the holder is struck by an Electric move, their Speed sharply rises. (They still take full damage. If they're immune, the Electirizer won't trigger)
Flavor: Motor Drive, the item. Only replace immunity with a bigger payoff in Speed.
Competitive: Can help slower Pokemon get going by switching into an Electric hit, potentially setting the stage for a sweep. Obviously most valuable for Grass, Dragon, and slower Electric types.

Cell Battery: If the holder is Electric type, restores 50% of the holder's health when below half health, using up the Cell Battery. The move Charge will replace a used Cell Battery like Recycle.
Flavor: It's a battery. Electric types generate and consume electricity. Not complicated.
Competitive: Electric types can take a crack at this bizarre foreign idea called "walling" and have an actual reason to use Charge, too. Truthfully, it's probably mostly going to be used by Zapdos and maybe Thundurus and Ampharos... though Lanturn is a possibility. Too bad Magnezone doesn't get Charge, but it does get Recycle! Might finally address its lack of recovery. Maybe.

 

[Tarontos]

Zap Plate
Normal moves become electric and have power boosted by 1.3
ate plate

Magnet
Electric moves hit twice with the second at 1/3 power, not making contact
The EMF created by the electric field hits again (when a magnet moves through a coil a contrary electric field is created So i figure the effect makes since))
Charge Beam!!! and discharge or thunder, You know parental bond.

Electrilizer (80 is a working limit if anybody can provide something broken i'll lower it)
Physical Electric moves below 80 power gain plus one priority, if used by Electivre power limit removed and power is is boosted by 1.2
I needed a good buff to Electivire, that wouldn't be entirely deadly on everything else, the only things that might be broken with this is Thundorus-I/thundorus-T over
Priority thunder fang, and Strong priority attacks are nice

the limit of 80 bpwas chosen to prevent wild charge(and fusion bolt), Assuming that electiver can get a PuP off it can start dealing signifgant damage
252+ Atk Electivire Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 186-220 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(may not be right, I just multiplied power of the move by 1.2)
+1 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Tyrantrum Thunder Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 166-196 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO(boosted)
252+ Atk Guts Luxray Thunder Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 166-196 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO(boosted)
+2 252+ Atk Sheer Force Rampardos Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 280-330 (82.1 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(boosted)
252+ Atk Thundurus Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 124-147 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 142-168 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO(boosted)
Now for some special moves
+2 252+ SpA Thundurus-T Hidden Power Electric vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 232-274 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(boosted)
maybe i'll add more later

Cell Battery
Electric moves become super effectively to steel types and hit ground types neutrally
not much resists bolt beam with this nothing is left.

2.75 sounds a little better to me 93 power makes it still boost crunch signifigantly

 

[MegaGallade]

I prefer Ghoul King's idea personally, as otherwise the Satchet would be haxxy for any Aromatisse and 100% luck-based on other Pokemon. It is a good idea nonetheless, but I prefer Ghoul King's.

Magnet: Magnet Pull: the item (Steel types cannot switch out on a Pokemon holding this item)
Flavour: Well... uh... magnet pull.
Competitive: Great for a surprise on the majority of threatening Steel-types in OU.

Electirizer: Doubles the chance of paralysis on the user's attacks with a chance of paralysis. If the user is Electabuzz or Electivire, the chance is tripled instead.
Flavour: The Magby line and Elekid are counterparts, so why would their items be anything other than counterparts?
Competitive: Helps out Electivire's low speed, and with moves like Discharge in its movepool, it could be threatening. Helps out low-speed electric types in general.

Cell Battery: Holder ignores the need to recharge (i.e. Giga Impact, Rock Wrecker, Frenzy Plant, etc.) once. Charge acts like 'recycle'.
Flavour: Batteries charge things, providing energy. Simple as that.
Competitive: I may be wrong, but Heliolisk could use this well, with access to Charge and STAB Hyper Beam. Otherwise it could be quite gimmicky, but useful. Also, Charge acting like Recycle makes so much sense.

If I've got a few things wrong, don't blame me, it's my first time doing this. Thanks! :]

 

[Whydon]

Ghoul King pretty much has it in the bag with his Zap Plate, but I definitely would suggest lowering that paralysis rate.

Magnet - One time use. If the holder is switched into battle, the opponent's electric or steel type Pokemon are automatically forced to switch in and can no longer escape.
Flavor - Magnets attract metal and can create static electricity, and have a magnetic pull.
Competitive - Putting this on a ground type Pokemon is great because it can deal with both electric and steel type mons. Mold Breaker Excadrill could possibly trap Rotom-W and beat it with an EQuake or something.

Electirizer - Pokemon that make direct contact with the holder have a 40% chance of being paralyzed.
Flavor - "Electirizer" even sounds like something that would electrify you. It contains high amounts of electricity, so making direct contact with it could possible paralyze you.
Competitive - Defensive Walls could hold this and switch in on Pokemon that may try to make direct contact with their moves, and possibly paralyze them.

Cell Battery - This Pokemon's electric-type moves gain +1 priority.
Flavor - Batteries give boosts of energy, making things work faster and quicker.
Competitive - Rotom-W now gets priority in Volt Switch and Thunder Wave. Priority Thunder Wave is pretty nice, too. Many electric Special Attackers can now afford to run Adamant/Modest, since most of the time they'll be running Timid/Jolly for more speed.

 

[Ghoul King]

Ghoul King pretty much has it in the bag with his Zap Plate, but I definitely would suggest lowering that paralysis rate.

Magnet - One time use. If the holder is switched into battle, the opponent's electric or steel type Pokemon are automatically forced to switch in and can no longer escape.
Flavor - Magnets attract metal and can create static electricity, and have a magnetic pull.
Competitive - Putting this on a ground type Pokemon is great because it can deal with both electric and steel type mons. Mold Breaker Excadrill could possibly trap Rotom-W and beat it with an EQuake or something.

Electirizer - Pokemon that make direct contact with the holder have a 40% chance of being paralyzed.
Flavor - "Electirizer" even sounds like something that would electrify you. It contains high amounts of electricity, so making direct contact with it could possible paralyze you.
Competitive - Defensive Walls could hold this and switch in on Pokemon that may try to make direct contact with their moves, and possibly paralyze them.

Cell Battery - This Pokemon's electric-type moves gain +1 priority.
Flavor - Batteries give boosts of energy, making things work faster and quicker.
Competitive - Electric sweepers no longer need a scarf and can afford to run Specs/Band for more damage. Raikou can possibly afford to run Specs, and Rotom-W now gets priority in Volt Switch and Thunder Wave. Priority Thunder Wave is pretty nice, too.

You get one item, not two. I'm not sure why you are mentioning Specs and Band.

I'll lower the Paralysis chance to 20%. It is kind of ridiculous to have something like Boomburst as an Electric move with Discharge/Thunder levels of Paralysis.

Electrilizer (80 is a working limit if anybody can provide something broken i'll lower it)
Physical Electric moves below 80 power gain plus one priority(includes status moves), if used by Electivre power limit removed and power is is boosted by 1.2
I needed a good buff to Electivire, that wouldn't be entirely deadly on everything else, the only things that might be broken with this is Thundorus-I/thundorus-T over
Priority thunder fang, and Strong priority attacks are nice

the limit of 80 bpwas chosen to prevent wild charge, and limit special moves learned by thundorus to up to 60 bp, besides voltswitch
Assuming that electiver can get a PuP off it can start dealing signifgant damage
252+ Atk Electivire Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 186-220 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(may not be right, I just multiplied power of the move by 1.2)
+1 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Tyrantrum Thunder Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 166-196 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO(boosted)
252+ Atk Guts Luxray Thunder Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 166-196 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO(boosted)
+2 252+ Atk Sheer Force Rampardos Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 280-330 (82.1 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(boosted)
252+ Atk Thundurus Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 124-147 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 142-168 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO(boosted)
Now for some special moves
+2 252+ SpA Thundurus-T Hidden Power Electric vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 232-274 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(boosted)
maybe i'll add more later

Just give Electivire a Zap Plate in the calculator, it'll give you the correct boost.

I'm not clear why you're suggesting that Thunder Fang in specific might be broken.

I'm also wondering how Conkeldurr has gotten the Guts boost while holding an Electirizor. I mean, against an actual Mew you'd have the potential to switch into Will O Wisp, but I know that's not why you're calcing with Hew.

 

[Whydon]

You get one item, not two. I'm not sure why you are mentioning Specs and Band.

I'll lower the Paralysis chance to 20%. It is kind of ridiculous to have something like Boomburst as an Electric move with Discharge/Thunder levels of Paralysis.

Woops, I'm dumb. :P

 

[Tarontos]

You get one item, not two. I'm not sure why you are mentioning Specs and Band.

I'll lower the Paralysis chance to 20%. It is kind of ridiculous to have something like Boomburst as an Electric move with Discharge/Thunder levels of Paralysis.



Just give Electivire a Zap Plate in the calculator, it'll give you the correct boost.

I'm not clear why you're suggesting that Thunder Fang in specific might be broken.

I'm also wondering how Conkeldurr has gotten the Guts boost while holding an Electirizor. I mean, against an actual Mew you'd have the potential to switch into Will O Wisp, but I know that's not why you're calcing with Hew.

Shoot i may have have edited that one without editing the whole thing--Have to fix that.
Guts was used becuase youd probably use it as a status absorber
Edit: fixed mostly

And your zap plate was fine--We already have the flame plate with 50 percent burn chance

 

[Ghoul King]

Yeah, but Paralysis is nasty. Burn isn't nice either, but its worst effect only applies to Physical attackers, and some of the best love it. There isn't really anything that's happy to be Paralyzed, and there isn't anything that's essentially "meh' about it, because the 25% chance of missing a turn is bad for everything. I'm gonna stick to 20%. (I refuse to go to 10% because I hate how unlikely those are -you can essentially pretend they don't happen, except of course when they do, which is dumb)

 

[Whydon]

Yeah, but Paralysis is nasty. Burn isn't nice either, but its worst effect only applies to Physical attackers, and some of the best love it. There isn't really anything that's happy to be Paralyzed, and there isn't anything that's essentially "meh' about it, because the 25% chance of missing a turn is bad for everything. I'm gonna stick to 20%. (I refuse to go to 10% because I hate how unlikely those are -you can essentially pretend they don't happen, except of course when they do, which is dumb)

I agree. Paralysis really is annoying, and burn only affects a handful of Pokemon. I suggested to decrease the 30% paralysis chance because that really is quite excessive. 20% probably works best.

 

[Cookie Butter]

Thanks everyone!
Now it's time to vote!

First Choice:UserX
Second Choice:UserY
Third Choice:UserZ

The First Choice gets 3 points, second gets 2 and third gets 1. The user with most votes will have their submission added into the project itself.

Zap Plate

The holder's Normal type moves become Electric and gain a 20% chance of Paralyzing on impact. - Ghoul King
Normal moves become electric and have power boosted by 1.3 - Tarontos
Any Status move the holder uses additionally attempts to set Electric Terrain. The holder takes half damage from Electric attacks. - the someone (Reasoning: Same as my Pixie Plate submission... this time it's more viable.)

Magnet

Steel and Electric type moves miss the holder - Ghoul King
Electric moves hit twice with the second at 1/3 power, not making contact - Tarontos
Steel types cannot switch out on a Pokemon holding this item - MegaGallade
One time use. If the holder is switched into battle, the opponent's electric or steel type Pokemon are automatically forced to switch in and can no longer escape. - runbabyrun
If the holder has the Minus or Plus abilities, their Special Attack get a x2.25 boost - the someone (Reasoning: I think this is self-explanatory)

Electirizer

If the holder is struck by an Electric move, their Speed sharply rises. (They still take full damage. If they're immune, the Electirizer won't trigger) - Ghoul King
Physical Electric moves below 80 power gain plus one priority, if used by Electivre power limit removed and power is is boosted by 1.2 - Tarontos
Doubles the chance of paralysis on the user's attacks with a chance of paralysis. If the user is Electabuzz or Electivire, the chance is tripled instead. - MegaGallade
Pokemon that make direct contact with the holder have a 40% chance of being paralyzed. - runbabyrun

Cell Battery

If the holder is Electric type, restores 50% of the holder's health when below half health, using up the Cell Battery. The move Charge will replace a used Cell Battery like Recycle. - Ghoul King
Electric moves become super effectively to steel types and hit ground types neutrally - Tarontos
Holder ignores the need to recharge (i.e. Giga Impact, Rock Wrecker, Frenzy Plant, etc.) once. Charge acts like 'recycle'. - MegaGallade
This Pokemon's electric-type moves gain +1 priority. - runbabyrun
The holder's Electric-type moves against the foe will always badly poison it, but the holder loses 1/16th of it's HP at the end of each turn. - the someone (Reasoning: Batteries have nasty acids and substances.)

Send your votes to me via PM.

To keep this thread active in this phase, here are some questions

• Are there any items you want to see in the next slate? Since there are only two types left, it'll be Normal next week and Grass will be last. (funny how this idea began with the Grass type)
• Which entries for this week do you agree/disagree with? [Remember: Be to the point and decisive, no hate]
• Are there any new possible strategies/sets that can be made with the last week's items?
• What Pokemon take advantage from those items?
• Also, Ghoul King's Sachet wins.

=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

The normal Return Formula divides Happiness by 2.5 and declares the result to be BP. If we instead say the Sweet Heart divides Happiness by 3 max happiness produces 85 BP, which is respectable -amazing with the right moves- but not "stronger than Earthquake with any type you want". That would be a straightforward way of patching the Sweet Heart without changing the idea fundamentally.

I was thinking of that, but it'd end up nerfing Return, which is kinda silly. Anyway, I might as well change it now... I don't think there'll be any disagreement on that. I'll keep the moves at 90~91 BP for now though.

 

[MegaGallade]

Personally I don't agree with the 'Cell Battery makes electric-type moves super-effective against Steel and neutral on Ground' submission. I'm just not sure how a battery allows electricity to go through soil. I understand the 'SE on Steel' part though, but anyway, I like all submissions. :]

Pixie Plate is kinda-like 'Pixilate: The Item', but I'm guessing it only works on Normal-type Pokemon. Any dual-typed Normal-types may use it for coverage reasons, but I won't see it on Normal-type tanks as they'll rather run Leftovers or Eviolite. One exception to that previous sentence just might be Porygon-Z. Tri-Attack becomes a 104BP Fairy-type move, whilst Hyper Beam becomes a terrifying 195BP Fairy-type move, which are both boosted by Adaptability. Damn. One problem will be that it'll sacrifice a scarf or specs for it, which may be worth it in some cases, but not all;

252+ SpA Pixie Plate Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 480-566 (118.8 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 554-652 (137.1 - 161.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also Pixie Plate Normal-type ExtremeSpeed users.

Whipped Dream... Let me say this.
Hypno gets Insomnia and Belly Drum.
Magmortar gets Vital Spirit and Belly Drum.
This effectively makes them immune to the after-effects of Whipped Dream, making the latter the go-to item for any Belly Drum Hypno/Magmortar sets. (Ironically, Slurpuff with Sweet Veil would be immune to the after-effects of Whipped Dream too) However, Hypno and Magmortar are not the best users of that move, so otherwise, it'll be a good item for any Belly Drum Pokemon that wants to clean up the rest of an opponent's team. Also Slurpuff is 5x more scary.

Sachet may be good for Pokemon with low-accuracy moves, but it takes a while for it to really take effect, so I expect people would rather run Life Orb/Choice Item etc. instead unfortunately.

Sweet Heart:

The normal Return Formula divides Happiness by 2.5 and declares the result to be BP. If we instead say the Sweet Heart divides Happiness by 3 max happiness produces 85 90-91 BP, which is respectable -amazing with the right moves- but not "stronger than Earthquake with any type you want". That would be a straightforward way of patching the Sweet Heart without changing the idea fundamentally.

I don't think I could put it in any better words. Gimmicky item, may be useful in certain situations such as Pokemon with low-BP moves.

May edit post later with sets, maybe not, but I love this project so far. :]

 

[Cookie Butter]

I've gotta say that I really liked Tarontos's submission for the Magnet. That was pretty clever.

Whipped Dream... Let me say this.
Hypno gets Insomnia and Belly Drum.
Magmortar gets Vital Spirit and Belly Drum.
This effectively makes them immune to the after-effects of Whipped Dream, making the latter the go-to item for any Belly Drum Hypno/Magmortar sets. (Ironically, Slurpuff with Sweet Veil would be immune to the after-effects of Whipped Dream too) However, Hypno and Magmortar are not the best users of that move, so otherwise, it'll be a good item for any Belly Drum Pokemon that wants to clean up the rest of an opponent's team. Also Slurpuff is 5x more scary.

I hadn't thought about that. Both Hypno and Magmortar get some pretty good physical moves as well, so they might be better than other Belly Drum users because of that. Darmanitan has power and speed over Magmortar, but Magmortar has the surprise effect, since it can be a Special Magmarizer set. Hm...

 

[Ghoul King]

Which entries for this week do you agree/disagree with? [Remember: Be to the point and decisive, no hate]

I intensely dislike the two trapping Magnet entries, but especially the one that drags in enemy Pokemon. Leaving aside mechanical questions (If the enemy has multiple pullable Pokemon, which one is grabbed? Does it trigger at the start of a match, or only on a "real" switch?), it's a disgustingly broken idea.

I was thinking of that, but it'd end up nerfing Return, which is kinda silly. Anyway, I might as well change it now... I don't think there'll be any disagreement on that. I'll keep the moves at 90~91 BP for now though.

I don't see why anybody should care that it nerfs Return. Nobody would ever run Return with the Sweet Heart anyway, when they could grab a move with some useful effect instead -like Quick Attack or Extreme Speed, if they care about Normal typing. And I went with a divider of 3 both because it's straightforwardly implementable (What divider produces 90 or 91 BP?) and because 85 is stronger than some type's primary attacking moves (Iron Head, Shadow Claw, Crunch, etc) but weaker than plenty of others. (Flamethrower, Psychic, etc) And therefore the primary appeal is a kind of Technician: The Item result, in terms of pulling up weaker moves -only unlike Technician it can be fantastic for really weak moves that don't lose their primary benefit from it, rather than only being all that great for middling moves.

What Pokemon take advantage from those items?

The only thing I have to add over what MegaGallade has already covered is that I think he's underestimating the Sachet's effect -triggering at the end of the turn means it triggers after you've switched in, after the enemy's switched in, etc, with only revenge-switches being particularly hampering to it. Otherwise you can basically assume Hurricane will hit, Thunder will hit, Blizzard will hit, etc. It's not amazing, no, but Hurricane is particularly noteworthy -Life Orb Air Slash is not competitive with Hurricane, and it's the next-best thing out of Special Flying moves after Hurricane. Tornadus, for instance, is more likely to run a Sachet and Hurricane than it is to run a Life Orb with Air Slash. Or Special Dragonite might run Sachet to get full benefit out of its unusual combination of Thunder, Blizzard, and Hurricane. (Note that it doesn't even get Air Slash, and that Draco Meteor does benefit from lowering enemy Evasion)

Again, there's probably not a ton of things, but there are things that would appreciate it -especially since it renders a number of otherwise-solid status moves 100% reliable after one turn. Who doesn't want Sleep Powder that's effectively Spore?

 

[Whydon]

I intensely dislike the two trapping Magnet entries, but especially the one that drags in enemy Pokemon. Leaving aside mechanical questions (If the enemy has multiple pullable Pokemon, which one is grabbed? Does it trigger at the start of a match, or only on a "real" switch?), it's a disgustingly broken idea.

To each his own. I wasn't entirely fond of your Magnet idea either, because Gothitelle can hold that Magnet and switch in on Scarfed Raikou or Magnezone and catch them on the Thunderbolt or Volt Switch, and proceed to Calm Mind all the way up, while at the same time preventing them from escaping and keeping them trapped in a move that misses 100% of the time. 100% miss chance is ridiculous imo, should be reduced to someone not so "disgustingly broken" as well.

 

[Ghoul King]

To each his own. I wasn't entirely fond of your Magnet idea either, because Gothitelle can hold that Magnet and switch in on Scarfed Raikou or Magnezone and catch them on the Thunderbolt or Volt Switch, and proceed to Calm Mind all the way up, while at the same time preventing them from escaping and keeping them trapped in a move that misses 100% of the time. 100% miss chance is ridiculous imo, should be reduced to someone not so "disgustingly broken" as well.

That's a rather more specific situation than "oh you have an Electric or Steel type WELL NOT ANYMORE". It's also more a commentary on how stupid Gothitelle is than it is on the item itself. The two are not remotely equivalent.