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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 12 - Always (I Wanna Be With You) [SEE POST #263]

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Only wanted to respond to a few things:

- usage stats are terrible arguments and shouldn't be used to (dis)prove a point.

- you can take all your anti-Pursuit tactics and throw em out the window if you run into a ScarfTar (which should be used a lot more since it's way more efficient than CB).

As for my stance on Keldeo... really not sure. I'd go with ban if I had to vote immediately and my life depended on it, for reasons already mentioned, but I can see where the anti-ban side's coming from. Still time to make up my mind though.

Btw I run 0 speed on my Jellicent :toast:
 
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1. Things setting up on choice-locked keldeo
My issue with your argument about keldeo bluffing is this: the ebelt set is great at bluffing as choiced, but the choiced sets don't bluff as ebelt. In 99% of games, if I send out keldeo against your +1 dragonite with multiscale broken, you're going to be perfectly right to conclude that it is scarfdeo. Furthermore, if that keldeo then proceeds to outspeed my dragonite and KO it with hp ice, i'm going to go straight to my SDzor and set up. Bluffing works great in the other direction: for example, if I hydro pump the blissey switch-in and it does 30%, and it has 29% health left now, and i hydro pump again instead of secret swording, then maybe the next time celebi comes in on my hydro i can hp bug it. Your argument would only really make sense if choice sets were rarely used, when in fact 54% of keldeo are choiced (according to most recent stats) and only 14% are ebelt.

My point was basically this: given that keldeo benefits so much from being choiced, and that so many of the pro-ban arguments depend upon the boosts it receives from scarf or specs (it's nowhere near as difficult to counter if we ignore specs, and doesn't function as a revenge-killer / late-game cleaner at all without a scarf), we have to look at the fact that it's one of the most set-up-on conducive choice-users out there--secret sword has a type immune to it, as does hpump via water absorb, dry skin, etc. It doesn't get decently powered coverage moves (it's the only OU mon I can think of that regularly uses a 50 BP move--horrible movepool in terms of coverage). Furthermore, its STAB's, while powerful, have meh coverage--and what's worse, one of the most major types that often resists both are dragons, which happen to be some of the best set-up sweepers in OU (dragonite, mence, lati@s, etc.). And sure, it can revenge them with hp ice on the scarf set, but hey, steels, another hugely threatening type, can set up on that! (Non to mention that half the set-up sweepers in OU can take many scarf hp ices from keldeo because it's so weak). Compared to something like terrakion, whose SE has literally no immunes and few resists, and who doesnt need coverage moves--basically literally, ever--keldeo is so much more prone to letting sweepers set-up on choice-locked variants of it.

2. Pursuit-trapping
The standard jellicent listed first in the smogon analysis has 44 Spe EVs, specifically to outspeed 8 speed scizor. Not only is this totally logical (given that checking scizor is a big perk of jellicent's), but jellicent's taunt is one of its greatest assets, and it needs speed to make use of it (taunting politoed before it toxic, ferro before it leeches, etc.). Outspeeding standard bandtar requires 88 spe EVs, which comes out to 11 points less in a defense--generally not something that will often cost you a game. Again, because jelli can make good use of the speed, this is a totally viable option. Just because these are not super common (if indeed they are not--I don't think I know a single skilled played who has run anything below 44 speed on jellicent) does not decrease their effectiveness. Meanwhile, I don't really see BP being such a big hindrance to celebi--you can absolutely still run psong, as very often you'll be needing them independently of each other, so they wont conflict. I dont really see why u-turn is a big loss--celebi never used it for anything but the free switch, and it's actually nice quite often not to take the iron barbs / rough skin damage.

And so what if these changes are being made to escape from pursuit (although I'm not even saying that they are 100% at all--as I said, jellicent makes great use of the extra speed for the faster taunt, and celebi runs u-turn 33% of the time anyway--and interestingly, psong only 8%--and basically doesn't lose anything by using BP over it)? I could make the argument that ebelt keldeo's HP bug is almost exclusively for celebi. So? Mons run unusual moves to get by their counters all the time, and there's nothing wrong with it. Celebi is one of keldeo's best and most common checks, so keldeo runs a move to beat it. Similarly, ttar and scizor are celebi's greatest enemies, so it runs a move to escape from them. (Not to mention that celebi gets far greater use out of baton pass outside of escaping pursuiters than keldeo gets from hp bug outside of beating celebi.) In fact, being able to use a wide variety of moves viably to get past counters is a huge bonus to a pokemon, and is one of the things that people are claiming makes keldeo broken!

3. Weakness to passive damage
You're right, you could say this about most any pokemon. I was more expressing that keldeo is not like tornadus-t in its ability to beat its counters by outliving them via regenerator. I agree with you, keldeo is probably less prone to being worn down than most pokemon due to the SR resist (equal to garchomp, yep), but it's can't play the "spam attacks and then switch out to wear down counters while staying in perfect shape regardless of residual damage" game like torny-t did. Not an important point, was just noting a significant difference between the two mons (particularly important since I'm pretty sure that was the deciding factor for a huge portion of the voters).

4. Checks have reliable recovery
I'm not 100% sure what you're arguing here. I agree that something being able to recover does not make it a foolproof counter, and that yes, recovering does give the opp a free turn. But just because something has a recovery move doesn't mean that it has to use it every time it takes damage. Your assertion about the momentum gained is basically just saying "if I can 3HKO your check if I start with an obvious move, i don't lose any momentum by using it, because they are forced to recover or risk the 2HKO the next time I'm in". Absolutely true. But this has nothing to do with them having recovery--it has to do with the fact that keldeo is a potent attacker who can 3HKO even its checks with proper prediction. I was making a totally separate point.

Which is that, as the converse to the point above, keldeo can't just wear its counter down over the course of the game. Landorus-t may be a more solid check to terrakion than celebi is to keldeo (no terrakion--bar hp ice lol--can come close to 2HKOing landy-t, whereas keldeo easily 2HKOs with hp bug), but if your keldeo does not have hp bug, you will NEVER get past that celebi without help from other mons or hax. It can take ANY 2 attacks from full health, and heal off more damage than you deal. On the other hand, the terrakion user can and will often get by that landorus-t through smart play--every time I stone edge as you switch in, I'm 30% closer to breaking though. If I switch out each time to something that forces landy-t out, it only takes 2 hits before terrakion can break through landy the next time I send it in. Meanwhile, this will literally NEVER happen with keldeo, because each and every one of its checks has the ability to recover off damage as fast as keldeo can deal it (basically).

5. Not over-centralizing
My point was mostly about the fact that obscure keldeo checks have not become common in OU (slowking is #132, for example). Not a big point, but the fact that rotom-h rose a ton in usage in genesect's prime but that slowking, which is a much more viable mon in terms of stats and movepool (and which shares typing with bro, which is relatively commonly used), has not, says a fair amount amout how much keldeo really has shaped the meta.

Don't have time to reply to the last one, but I will in a bit. Interested to hear your thoughts, myzo!

I'll hop in for Myzozoa if he doesn't mind.

1) This discussion is irrelevant. The nature of choice items on any pokemon is a tradeoff between immediate speed/power and flexibility. Literally every choice attacker can be set up on by a check to the move it picks. The fact that this might be "more" true for Keldeo because of the resistances to his moves is offset by the fact that he's the best revenge killer in the game at the moment. When you run a revenge killer, you accept the fact that things might set up on it. Keldeo's role as a choiced pokemon doesn't require that it prevents setup and if you can't deal with that it's a teambuilding flaw rather than a flaw with Keldeo.

2) "Standard Jellicent" that you reference here is not the SpD Jellicent that counters Keldeo - the Jellicent you are discussing is easily 2HKOed by HP Ghost on Specs or LO. Presuming we're discussing the special defensive Jellicent, that's 88 EVs out of HP which doesn't help Jellicent at all.
Also, the argument that "it's legit for defensive pokemon to have to tailor their set to Keldeo because Keldeo does the same to them" is not symmetrical like you are making it sound. Keldeo derives most of its utility from two attacks - Hydro Pump and Secret Sword. That leaves it two moveslots and an item choice to fuck up whatever counters it chooses to or add utility like the ability to revenge kill every dragon with HP Ice. A defensive pokemon like Celebi or Jellicent isn't put on a team solely to counter Keldeo, especially on stall - it has other roles to play. A change of a move or an EV set will hurt their viability a lot more than an equivalent change from Keldeo. For example, taking 44 EVs out of defense on the standard Jellicent you cited to go to speed gets you 2HKOed by Lando-T's EQ, Haxorus' Outrage, CB Weavile's Pursuit, and LO Darm's Flare Blitz. These are just some random examples that I pulled off of Honkalculator, but are a legit example of sacrifices you have to make.
On the whole Pursuit trapping is hella scary for good Keldeo counters, even if there are some countermeasures. We haven't even discussed Latias who gets extra fucked because even if it Subs to avoid Pursuit, it now gets 2HKOed by Specs Hydro Pump and easily wrecked by Icy Wind.

3) Sure, but Keldeo is better in other ways, like its lesser reliance on weather, better STABs and versatility. The situations aren't isomorphic.

4) But when Lando-T switches in on Terrakion he can put pressure on the opponent. His presence dictates possible switches, he can U-Turn out of whatever switches in and gain momentum, or he can dent something with Earthquake. Myzozoa's point is that Jellicent/Celebi/Latias HAVE to Recover to retain their utility as Keldeo counters (in most cases) which nullifies any advantage you should have gained by countering his pokemon and in fact can often put you in a WORSE situation than you were in when Keldeo was staring you in the face.

5) Again, not isomorphic. The meta happened to already be skewed toward rain, so Celebi/Latias/Jellicent/Amoonguss were somewhat common. Also, I think the rise of Amoonguss is an example of this phenomenon.
 
So i got reqs for ou current and i must say that honestly i didnt found much keldeos at all. In fact i barely found good players, the entire ladder was like a sick joke. There was so much bad sun teams there i felt like i was playing the same matches over and over. I used a HO team with offensive latias as my sole keldeo check and i must say that it simply wasnt enough. When i faced a keldeo in a rain team i was easily outplaying the opponent, prevented him from setupping rocks, setuped a bunch of hazards of my own, beat a lot of his mons while keeping mine healthy enough through the match and late game once latias got weakened enough he simply sent in keldeo and spammed surf, simply and brainless. There was absolutely nothing i could do but watch as my pokemons got destroyed without a chance to do anything. My saving grace was thundurus-t surviving a rain boosted surf then i checked the calcs and realized there was a 62% chance to ohko. Bottom line, the only reason i won was because my opponent failed to setup stealth rock. Situations like this have happened before many times with me (except that i lost the majority of them) and honestly just show how much keldeo does great against offense. Once its check(s) is(are) weakened enough theres nothing preventing it from coming and spam rain boosted atks. Water+Fighting stab is just sick, it hit so many stuff hard its ridiculous and being able to lure in and beat its counters or just weaken then enough to spam atks without problems is too much for this meta. Im not a stall player so i cant speak for them but offense is just easily destroyed by keldeo unless youre packing a bunch of checks which is obvious restricting teambuilding and goes against the point of playing this game in first place.
 
Yeah, when I think "Keldeo counter," Tyranitar is definitely the first thing that comes to mind...

Yes, there are options you can stack on top of one another to deal with Keldeo, but I don't think it's right to have two or three Pokémon on every team dedicated to defeating Keldeo, especially when dedicated revenge killers like Breloom, Scizor, Mamoswine, CB Dragonite, and other priority users can't OHKO it. No, you have to pack a defensive check to Keldeo or a Scarf Latios to beat the Scarf set on offensive teams. Balanced are forced to have multiple defensive checks if they want to stop all forms of Keldeo. Stall doesn't really struggle with it, I don't think, but that's because it's literally made entirely of defensive Pokémon, so that would make sense.
 
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I'm not saying ttar is a Keldeo counter, in fact, I even specifically said that in my post. But giving yourself a way to change the weather away from rain or sun gives you an advantage against Keldeo (and like 30%+ of the teams you run into on the ladder, so it's not like you're just putting him on there for 1 poke). If you play smart and win the weather war, now your Thundy-T can come in and survive that surf 100% of the time.

By the way a balanced team doesn't need multiple Keldeo checks. Tentacruel in the rain can check any Keldeo except maybe specs w/ hydro pump. If it's using that, you need a 2nd water resist, but I think having 2 water resists on a team is a good idea even without Keldeo.
 
1. Things setting up on choice-locked keldeo
My issue with your argument about keldeo bluffing is this: the ebelt set is great at bluffing as choiced, but the choiced sets don't bluff as ebelt. In 99% of games, if I send out keldeo against your +1 dragonite with multiscale broken, you're going to be perfectly right to conclude that it is scarfdeo. Furthermore, if that keldeo then proceeds to outspeed my dragonite and KO it with hp ice, i'm going to go straight to my SDzor and set up. Bluffing works great in the other direction: for example, if I hydro pump the blissey switch-in and it does 30%, and it has 29% health left now, and i hydro pump again instead of secret swording, then maybe the next time celebi comes in on my hydro i can hp bug it. Your argument would only really make sense if choice sets were rarely used, when in fact 54% of keldeo are choiced (according to most recent stats) and only 14% are ebelt.

My point was basically this: given that keldeo benefits so much from being choiced, and that so many of the pro-ban arguments depend upon the boosts it receives from scarf or specs (it's nowhere near as difficult to counter if we ignore specs, and doesn't function as a revenge-killer / late-game cleaner at all without a scarf), we have to look at the fact that it's one of the most set-up-on conducive choice-users out there--secret sword has a type immune to it, as does hpump via water absorb, dry skin, etc. It doesn't get decently powered coverage moves (it's the only OU mon I can think of that regularly uses a 50 BP move--horrible movepool in terms of coverage). Furthermore, its STAB's, while powerful, have meh coverage--and what's worse, one of the most major types that often resists both are dragons, which happen to be some of the best set-up sweepers in OU (dragonite, mence, lati@s, etc.). And sure, it can revenge them with hp ice on the scarf set, but hey, steels, another hugely threatening type, can set up on that! (Non to mention that half the set-up sweepers in OU can take many scarf hp ices from keldeo because it's so weak). Compared to something like terrakion, whose SE has literally no immunes and few resists, and who doesnt need coverage moves--basically literally, ever--keldeo is so much more prone to letting sweepers set-up on choice-locked variants of it.

2. Pursuit-trapping
The standard jellicent listed first in the smogon analysis has 44 Spe EVs, specifically to outspeed 8 speed scizor. Not only is this totally logical (given that checking scizor is a big perk of jellicent's), but jellicent's taunt is one of its greatest assets, and it needs speed to make use of it (taunting politoed before it toxic, ferro before it leeches, etc.). Outspeeding standard bandtar requires 88 spe EVs, which comes out to 11 points less in a defense--generally not something that will often cost you a game. Again, because jelli can make good use of the speed, this is a totally viable option. Just because these are not super common (if indeed they are not--I don't think I know a single skilled played who has run anything below 44 speed on jellicent) does not decrease their effectiveness. Meanwhile, I don't really see BP being such a big hindrance to celebi--you can absolutely still run psong, as very often you'll be needing them independently of each other, so they wont conflict. I dont really see why u-turn is a big loss--celebi never used it for anything but the free switch, and it's actually nice quite often not to take the iron barbs / rough skin damage.

And so what if these changes are being made to escape from pursuit (although I'm not even saying that they are 100% at all--as I said, jellicent makes great use of the extra speed for the faster taunt, and celebi runs u-turn 33% of the time anyway--and interestingly, psong only 8%--and basically doesn't lose anything by using BP over it)? I could make the argument that ebelt keldeo's HP bug is almost exclusively for celebi. So? Mons run unusual moves to get by their counters all the time, and there's nothing wrong with it. Celebi is one of keldeo's best and most common checks, so keldeo runs a move to beat it. Similarly, ttar and scizor are celebi's greatest enemies, so it runs a move to escape from them. (Not to mention that celebi gets far greater use out of baton pass outside of escaping pursuiters than keldeo gets from hp bug outside of beating celebi.) In fact, being able to use a wide variety of moves viably to get past counters is a huge bonus to a pokemon, and is one of the things that people are claiming makes keldeo broken!

3. Weakness to passive damage
You're right, you could say this about most any pokemon. I was more expressing that keldeo is not like tornadus-t in its ability to beat its counters by outliving them via regenerator. I agree with you, keldeo is probably less prone to being worn down than most pokemon due to the SR resist (equal to garchomp, yep), but it's can't play the "spam attacks and then switch out to wear down counters while staying in perfect shape regardless of residual damage" game like torny-t did. Not an important point, was just noting a significant difference between the two mons (particularly important since I'm pretty sure that was the deciding factor for a huge portion of the voters).

4. Checks have reliable recovery
I'm not 100% sure what you're arguing here. I agree that something being able to recover does not make it a foolproof counter, and that yes, recovering does give the opp a free turn. But just because something has a recovery move doesn't mean that it has to use it every time it takes damage. Your assertion about the momentum gained is basically just saying "if I can 3HKO your check if I start with an obvious move, i don't lose any momentum by using it, because they are forced to recover or risk the 2HKO the next time I'm in". Absolutely true. But this has nothing to do with them having recovery--it has to do with the fact that keldeo is a potent attacker who can 3HKO even its checks with proper prediction. I was making a totally separate point.

Which is that, as the converse to the point above, keldeo can't just wear its counter down over the course of the game. Landorus-t may be a more solid check to terrakion than celebi is to keldeo (no terrakion--bar hp ice lol--can come close to 2HKOing landy-t, whereas keldeo easily 2HKOs with hp bug), but if your keldeo does not have hp bug, you will NEVER get past that celebi without help from other mons or hax. It can take ANY 2 attacks from full health, and heal off more damage than you deal. On the other hand, the terrakion user can and will often get by that landorus-t through smart play--every time I stone edge as you switch in, I'm 30% closer to breaking though. If I switch out each time to something that forces landy-t out, it only takes 2 hits before terrakion can break through landy the next time I send it in. Meanwhile, this will literally NEVER happen with keldeo, because each and every one of its checks has the ability to recover off damage as fast as keldeo can deal it (basically).

5. Not over-centralizing
My point was mostly about the fact that obscure keldeo checks have not become common in OU (slowking is #132, for example). Not a big point, but the fact that rotom-h rose a ton in usage in genesect's prime but that slowking, which is a much more viable mon in terms of stats and movepool (and which shares typing with bro, which is relatively commonly used), has not, says a fair amount amout how much keldeo really has shaped the meta.

Don't have time to reply to the last one, but I will in a bit. Interested to hear your thoughts, myzo!

1. "Keldeo benefits so much from being choiced, and that so many of the pro-ban arguments depend upon the boosts it receives from scarf or specs"


Well, personally I think the expert belt set is actually significantly better than specs, and I think almost all my arguments in my first two post centered around the idea the expert belt destroys its standard checks while being a massive threat to offensive teams even with out a scarf. As for the scarf set, the reason it doesn't seem to be as overpowering, as it truly is, is that the existence of rain and Keldeo in the metagame causes extreme precaution in team building. I always try to have 3 water resists on my offensive teams, and then I too don't have problems with Keldeo. The reason I'm advocating for ban is that I think this is too restrictive and I've noticed that in choosing water resistant pokemon, I've made my team weaker to opposing offense and stall that aren't attempting to water spam.

Now you may say to me that this means rain is the problem not Keldeo, so if we banned Keldeo another water abuser would step up to take it's role. However, there is no next water abuser, there is nothing close to Keldeo in OU. Water spam is threatening competitiveness and I believe a Keldeo ban would fix this.

To be clear: I think Keldeo is broken on weatherless teams and rain teams and sand teams, I would be willing to argue that it is broken in all of these conditions. Rain is a huge factor, because rain and Keldeo come together to make OU less competitive. Keldeo does not need to be on a rain team to be broken, or even in rain to be broken, it just happens to be that the metagame has both Keldeo and rain and adapting to both is too restrictive.


2. Pursuit-trapping
Seems like this discussion is going nowhere, I say A is the case, you say not A is the case.


3. "keldeo is not like tornadus-t"

To this I would say: Keldeo is not like Torn-t, it isn't weak to priority, it is significantly stronger in the rain and not reliant on rain to be affective. In addition it has two quality stabs and no SR weakness. On the subject of Torn-t and Keldeo test, I voted ban Keldeo and abstained from T-t so I guess i just don't feel quite as strongly.

Note that with SR up Keldeo can switch in and out 4 times before it has less percentage hp than Tornadus-t.


4. "Checks have reliable recovery"

When a counter recovers, the opponent gets a free turn. Latias comes in on Specs Secret Sword, it uses recover while Keldeo switches out to a Latias counter/check/set-up pkmn. Ok, you could choose not to recover and instead attack, but that means that you won't be able to switch into the next Secret Sword. To me this reasoning translates to: it's okay to give your opponent a free turn so that in exchange you get to not kill Keldeo, or even cripple it, but merely so that you can switch into it again.

I don't think this is ok.


5. Not over-centralizing

I think we've run this into the ground, gotta agree to disagree.
 
I'd like to point out a little thing I've noticed...when BW1, and later BW2 came out, a lot of people were absolutely furious about stall not being nearly as effective anymore, due to all the brand spankin new offense mons. It seems like Keldeo changed this, having a nice little advantage against HO teams, but also having problems against stall (thereby giving stall a nice little buff). Yet people want to ban a mon that makes stall more viable. I'm a little confused as to why ban a mon that closes the gap between offense vs stall.

tl;dr: If it increases the viability of other playstyles, then I don't see how banning Keldeo is going to make the metagame more stable.

Just my opinion on the matter, not sure if anyone else has had this thought or not.
 
because keldeo is an offensive answer to other offense teams, rarely will you ever see a stall team that can afford to run a keldeo, so its a handicap in offense vs offense matchups.

not even mentioning keldeo itself can be an incredible stall breaker with the CM set, so yeah it doesnt really help stall at all.
 
Hmm well jpw's post disappeared while I was writing a response to it. I guess I'll respond to myzo.
1. "Keldeo benefits so much from being choiced, and that so many of the pro-ban arguments depend upon the boosts it receives from scarf or specs"


Well, personally I think the expert belt set is actually significantly better than specs, and I think almost all my arguments in my first two post centered around the idea the expert belt destroys its standard checks while being a massive threat to offensive teams even with out a scarf. As for the scarf set, the reason it doesn't seem to be as overpowering, as it truly is, is that the existence of rain and Keldeo in the metagame causes extreme precaution in team building. I always try to have 3 water resists on my offensive teams, and then I too don't have problems with Keldeo. The reason I'm advocating for ban is that I think this is too restrictive and I've noticed that in choosing water resistant pokemon, I've made my team weaker to opposing offense and stall that aren't attempting to water spam.

Now you may say to me that this means rain is the problem not Keldeo, so if we banned Keldeo another water abuser would step up to take it's role. However, there is no next water abuser, there is nothing close to Keldeo in OU. Water spam is threatening competitiveness and I believe a Keldeo ban would fix this.

To be clear: I think Keldeo is broken on weatherless teams and rain teams and sand teams, I would be willing to argue that it is broken in all of these conditions. Rain is a huge factor, because rain and Keldeo come together to make OU less competitive. Keldeo does not need to be on a rain team to be broken, or even in rain to be broken, it just happens to be that the metagame has both Keldeo and rain and adapting to both is too restrictive.


2. Pursuit-trapping
Seems like this discussion is going nowhere, I say A is the case, you say not A is the case.


3. "keldeo is not like tornadus-t"

To this I would say: Keldeo is not like Torn-t, it isn't weak to priority, it is significantly stronger in the rain and not reliant on rain to be affective. In addition it has two quality stabs and no SR weakness. On the subject of Torn-t and Keldeo test, I voted ban Keldeo and abstained from T-t so I guess i just don't feel quite as strongly.

Note that with SR up Keldeo can switch in and out 4 times before it has less percentage hp than Tornadus-t.


4. "Checks have reliable recovery"

When a counter recovers, the opponent gets a free turn. Latias comes in on Specs Secret Sword, it uses recover while Keldeo switches out to a Latias counter/check/set-up pkmn. Ok, you could choose not to recover and instead attack, but that means that you won't be able to switch into the next Secret Sword. To me this reasoning translates to: it's okay to give your opponent a free turn so that in exchange you get to not kill Keldeo, or even cripple it, but merely so that you can switch into it again.

I don't think this is ok.


5. Not over-centralizing

I think we've run this into the ground, gotta agree to disagree.

1.
OK, well if you're willing to advocate the ebelt set > the choice ones, more power to you. I just think it's important to realize that any argument that rest on the boosts keldeo gets from choice items has to take into account the significant downsides keldeo has as a choice user.

I've had the exact same thought process as you--I think honestly this is a case of rain as a playstyle being too strong. I'm hesitant to support keldeo's removal simply because we've had such a series of rain-hindering bans that have done little to reduce its dominance. Anyways, I see this as a kind of "well keldeo isn't broken but rain is, but removing keldeo will weaken rain so it helps the metagame" situation. I personally agree that keldeo is kinda unhealthy for the metagame for a lot of reasons, I just have a hard time seeing it in and of itself as broken.

2.
We can agree to disagree on this one, but I'll post what I wrote to jpw to be a bit more clear about why I don't see this as over-centralizing:
In terms of "standard" I was just referring to the fact that even the standard jellicent spread is EVed to outspeed scizor, which kinda justifies the idea that jellicent can viably run a bit of speed regardless of the set. Also my argument was more "it's legit for jellicent to tailor its set to beating ttar"--ttar being one of jellicent's biggest issues--in the same way that it's legit for keldeo to tailor its set to beating celebi, one of its biggest counters. True, you do lose some bulk, which isn't exactly favorable, but ttar is a little more important for jellicent to beat than the mons you mentioned (I understand they were just examples) for a couple of reasons: ttar is much more common; the speed makes the difference between decisively beating ttar and decisively losing; jellicent cannot switch out from ttar. This last point is kinda important because I don't know the last time I called on jellicent to check haxorus or even landy-t. Weavile is a viable point, since with pursuit it is true that you can't switch out, so it's coming down to whether I will lose more games because weavile 2HKOs me with pursuit (lot of good that does--I just WoW and then recover as it now does >25%) or because I fail to outspeed CBtar. Sure, it's a trade-off. But by running hp bug keldeo now can't hit jellicent hard at all, or OHKO garchomp. Yet if hitting that celebi will win you more games than the disadvantages, why shouldn't you be justified to do it?

3.
Agreed, again. The idea here was just to point out a particular disadvantage of keldeo's: that, unlike tornadus-t, it can't play an attrition game with its counters because it has no form of recovery. Not meant to mean that keldeo is inferior to torny, but just that it lacks one particularly critical quality that tipped a previous suspect over the line.

4.
I'm not really seeing how this is keldeo-specific. What I believe you are saying is that if an offensive mon can 3HKO a check with spam move + coverage move + coverage move, then the check has to recover or risk being KOed the second time round. Agreed. But so what? Skarmory has to roost on scarf terrakion's CC every time or it will be 2HKOed the time time it comes in on it. But that gives the opponent a free turn to go to thundurus-t or starmie or even magnezone. What is unique to keldeo about this?

What IS unique to keldeo is the fact that for every single one of its counters/checks, that counter/check can do the equivalent of roosting of the damage. If I have a CB terra and you have a landy-t, sure you can come in on any of my attacks, maybe even twice, and you don't need to recover because you have the bulk to take 3 hits with lefties (maybe). But all I have to do is keep using SE and switching out afterwards, and each time I'll be 34% closer to breaking through you (-1 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Landorus-T: 138-163 (36.12 - 42.67%) -- 97.17% chance to 3HKO). Heck, I come in and SE the landy switch once, I have a decent chance to 2HKO the very next time I send terra in. Sure, you can earthquake or u-turn as I switch, but I can break through landy-t in a short period of time. This will simply NEVER happen with keldeo, because each and every one of its checks/counters has reliable recovery. Basically, that they have recovery just means keldeo can't wear them down over time, and I'm not claiming it doesnt give a free turn--but that's just because keldeo is often able to 3HKO some of its frailer checks (with proper prediction), which is not unique to keldy in the slightest.

5.
As you mentioned, I think it's rain that's truly over-centralizing, not really keldeo at all, but I'm happy to agree to disagree here.
 
Not really, because Starmie without any SpA investment 2HKOes Keldeo so it can't actually switch into Keldeo since Keldeo KOes with Hydro Pump + HP Bug.
 
Starmie is actually one of the perfect checks to keldeo if you use an offensive LO variant because it as able to take a hit from Keldeo and retaliate back with psyshock
 
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie in rain: 250-295 (95.41 - 112.59%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

So much for offensive starmie the perfect check...
 
I think starmie is pretty clearly a decent check to keldeo--it beats it 1-on-1 and can take most any hit from it. Offensive sets can generally take one hit, outspeed, and OHKO, while defensive sets can generally take a hit for <50%, outspeed, and 2HKO. There are absolutely exceptions (choice keldeo on a water move or SE HP beats it--specs can OHKO, scarf 2HKOs and outspeeds) and ebelt wins if it icy winds on the switch since it then outspeeds next turn. But in general, it is a decent offensive check.
 
i guess it's like there's no one perfect keldeo but each set is highly efficient and it can be designed to pick it's checks/counters.
 
I think that something people need to realize is that there are great arguments coming from both sides. Everyone is so eager to tear apart the opposing viewpoint when, in reality, it is technically correct. This test, I believe comes down to a more subjective basis: What do YOU consider to be good/bad for the metagame. That is to me the greatest factor in your decision on keldeo.

I personally believe specs keldeo's innate ability to destroy even bulky resists is most certainly not good for anything.

Whereas an opponent might believe that, based on their playstyle/experiences, this is managable (if you happen to run gastro on almost every team, keldeo is of little problem. That doesn't neccesarily suggest a centralization around keldeo, but rather a pokemon you naturally gravitate to happens to fare well against the pony)
 
Was watching a vid of Gator's recently where he was using LO CM Keldeo, and he matched up against a team with both Amoongus and Toxicroak. What was interesting was watching how easily Keldeo broke thru those 2 by itself with hazard support. In preparing for Keldeo he made his team weaker to it hillariously because it didn't even take into account Keldeo's team support.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ELR4Zm6fnSE&t=1309

Should be interesting to watch it in action rather than theorymon.

P.S. yes the player wasn't the best, but meh what can you do.

P.P.S sorry not trying to advertise, just felt actual gameplay was > theorymon.
 
Was watching a vid of Gator's recently where he was using LO CM Keldeo, and he matched up against a team with both Amoongus and Toxicroak. What was interesting was watching how easily Keldeo broke thru those 2 by itself with hazard support. In preparing for Keldeo he made his team weaker to it hillariously because it didn't even take into account Keldeo's team support.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ELR4Zm6fnSE&t=1309

Should be interesting to watch it in action rather than theorymon.

P.S. yes the player wasn't the best, but meh what can you do.

P.P.S sorry not trying to advertise, just felt actual gameplay was > theorymon.

Okay. I will acknowledge if a player just sits there and lets you get up SR + 3 spikes, you're gonna get demolished by keldeo no matter what defensive checks you have. This sets up even more ridiculous situations than theorymon does.

I'm all for actual gameplay > theorymon, but you're gonna have to bring a better example than this one.
 
Okay. I will acknowledge if a player just sits there and lets you get up SR + 3 spikes, you're gonna get demolished by keldeo no matter what defensive checks you have. This sets up even more ridiculous situations than theorymon does.

I'm all for actual gameplay > theorymon, but you're gonna have to bring a better example than this one.

I guess custap Forry/Skarm + spinblocker isn't a thing.

In dealing with Keldeo you use too many team slots trying to not get run over it, while the Keldeo player can use it's support to smash your overstretched Keldeo "counters."
 
I guess custap Forry/Skarm + spinblocker isn't a thing.

I guess every team doesn't have a way to limit custap skarm/forry to just rocks/absolutely nothing by now, and I guess spinblockers are hard to beat..
I also guess somehow custap skarm/forry gets up 3 layers of spikes on any team
are we gonna assume full hazards as a standard battle condition now? cuz a whole lot of shit is gonna be broken then
 
@Nysyr bringing up other teammates is such a poor argument (in the case of Forrey/Skarm + Gengar + Keldeo, since that's half a goddamn team). Even with Gar to spinblock it's still pretty difficult to get up SR and 3 layers of spikes against any player of decent skill. (I shouldn't have to explain why.)

Can you please provide a better argument than this? It's posts like these why I have chosen not to bother with posting too much this discussion as of late; most of these arguments are just flat-out horrible that I don't even want to entertain them.
 
Posts like yours are even worse, such level of smartassness that makes it hard to respond to them. But I will.

Bringing up teammates isnt a poor argument. Your view of this is so black and white it hurts, way too linear without understanding simple concepts such as: This shit is a team game. Shit has been banned for being or holding too much utility, which links directly to the teammates it has. If anything I think its a p good argument that Keldeo is so good he can be used in Spikestack teams, Tyranitar Offense teams, any Rain team, etc, while mantaining a dominant position in the metagame. And yes, its hard to get SR and 3 layers of spikes, but its pretty easy to get SR and 1-2 layers of spikes because thats what those teams are built around to do. If they cant do it easily then the team didnt achieve its purpose, the purpose for what its built. You say "players of decent skill wont let you get them" but guess what, theres also players of decent skill on the other side of a battle that can and will get them up easily, because the way the team is built lets them. So please, do explain why its so easy for you to manage to stop layers going up against these kinds of team, because if it were those teams wouldnt be popular in the first place.

 
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