Yes, I'll admit when the suspect and current ladder was first put up, I only used my "Keldeo Gang or Die" team to get reqs. But then again that's the only team I use for anything. :] I'll also admit that I was very biased entering this discussion, but thanks to some good arguments from certain posters, my mind has changed. I would just like everyone to remember to keep an open mind in this discussion and not bash on what other people are trying to say. Letting go of your bias and really listening to what the other side has to offer makes for a fruitful and beneficial discussion for all involved. :]
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np: Doubles Stage 1 — Dragontown — Salamencite Suspect Discussion IT'S BANNED
- Thread starter Stratos
- Start date
- Status
I believe Mega Mence should not be banned as it has many checks, and pokemon carry powerful hits against it naturally (like rock slide or ice beam etc.) and it gets beaten by common things like tailwind suicune, rain teams, and scarf users with super effective moves (lando, genesect and so on). Also, it isn't over centralizing as it isn't used very often, and people don't change their sets a lot to beat it (people would still carry moves to beat dragons or flying type on those mons anyway).
Salamencite: do not ban
Edit: I reiterated other arguements, because I heard somewhere that you had to do a post arguing in favor of your opinion for your vote to be counted, and I wasn't sure if saying "I think it shouldn't be banned because of the same reasons as the other ones who think this" would be considered to be an arguement.
Salamencite: do not ban
Edit: I reiterated other arguements, because I heard somewhere that you had to do a post arguing in favor of your opinion for your vote to be counted, and I wasn't sure if saying "I think it shouldn't be banned because of the same reasons as the other ones who think this" would be considered to be an arguement.
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Stratos
Banned deucer.
In an ideal world yes but there is the matter of posting reqs so a post is better than no post.
Either way, thats a bad definition of centralization Fer. Its pretty obvious that kang overcentralized the vgc14 meta but it had very low usage at worlds. Overcentralization just means that the meta develops largely around a single pokemon.
Happy Holidays nerds u_u
On another note, I haven't really stated my stance on: MegaMence's state on the metagame. All I can say is that it's really good in this meta that it really skews its balance to the point of brokeness. It's is pretty much unhealthy due to its combination of solid power, bulk, Speed, and typing. Its presence has also pretty much skewed the metagame around it. As Pokemon on the field, it can pretty much take deal with a significant portion of the metagame and threaten to set-up for an endgame very easily, much more so with support.
Expanding on my points, MegaMence is basically "defining" what's good in the metagame. Its Speed and Attack stats are high up there; sitting at 120 Base it can pretty much hit everything first, other than the likes of Darkrai and Weavile, with mean Aerilate-boosted Returns off 145 Attack. It also has stellar 95 / 130 physical bulk along with a decent 90 SDef to take hits with. Its typing is also good, save for the glaring Ice weakness. With those stats, it can pretty much outspeed and pound on a significant portion of the meta and take a hit back like a champ, something we don't really see on the meta. And it can do so with zero cost bar a Mega Stone, unlike Landorus-T which has to be Scarfed to even compare. Offensively, Flying hits a lot and the meta is really struggling when it comes to Flying-resists. What I'm saying is that by design of stats and typing alone it can basically threaten a significant portion of the metagame.
Mega Salamence has what I feel a negative influence to the metagame. What was previously "fast" (110-ish) isn't so fast anymore, and if a mon can't touch it it's pretty much a liability; both effects take hits on certain some mons' viabilty. For example, I haven't really seen a single Sun team in high-level play mainly because Charizard-Y and co. are basically Mega Mence bait, though the presence of Mega Diance is a factor too. Mons that it can set up / beat like Heatran and Venu also dipped. MegaMence's presence is really felt on how it shifts the metagame.
One more thing I haven't said is that: DD MegaMence is great to a fault. It has the typing, stats, and offensive pressure to pretty much safely set-up and be in a position for an endgame; it also has Intimidate for a base ability to be aid in taking hits. It can easily force its way into boosts which lets it become much more; it can pretty much favorably force endgames or situations that inevitably lead to it. It can use its resists pretty effectively for set-up chances too, like stuff like Tran or Hitmontop are basically set-up bait. It's also pretty easy to support; redirection pretty much gives MegaMence an easier time setting up and makes it all the more threatening. Redirection also keeps it safe while it goes on to take out things, make the sweep go on longer and safer. The maintenance cost is low, but the payoff is really high. It's nothing like your basic set-up + redirection; it's not like Kang who only boosts in Attack and is still pretty prone to damage and has somewhat bland typing, nor is it like MegaTyranitar who is still relatively slow, prone to spread and priority, and only has average-powered attacks. MegaSalamence has the stats, powerful moves and typing to get away with this kind of set-up. And it can do so with only Return as a move; it would be much more potent one would carry Dragon Claw or another coverage move on it. The boosted Speed when setting up means that you can't really stop it with Tailwind, and its bulk + typing means that it isn't prone to priority. It can also use Substitute to block Intimidate or Roost to increase longetivity which is nifty while setting up.
Still, it still has some checks, but this is where redirection comes in. Would-be checks would just be a nuisance thanks to redirection; Intimidate an annoyance. It could also just switch out and let its teammates handle said checks and nuisances like TR. It's a 6v6 game and Mence has more slots to go back to, and it can be a shit with Intimidate while waiting. Regardless, with support it can pretty much go tear things apart. Though the last statement applies to everything, unlike everything else MegaMence is pretty much able to take advantage fully by design relative to the metagame.
I'm leaning on banning this thing. also i made this really late so w/e
On another note, I haven't really stated my stance on: MegaMence's state on the metagame. All I can say is that it's really good in this meta that it really skews its balance to the point of brokeness. It's is pretty much unhealthy due to its combination of solid power, bulk, Speed, and typing. Its presence has also pretty much skewed the metagame around it. As Pokemon on the field, it can pretty much take deal with a significant portion of the metagame and threaten to set-up for an endgame very easily, much more so with support.
Expanding on my points, MegaMence is basically "defining" what's good in the metagame. Its Speed and Attack stats are high up there; sitting at 120 Base it can pretty much hit everything first, other than the likes of Darkrai and Weavile, with mean Aerilate-boosted Returns off 145 Attack. It also has stellar 95 / 130 physical bulk along with a decent 90 SDef to take hits with. Its typing is also good, save for the glaring Ice weakness. With those stats, it can pretty much outspeed and pound on a significant portion of the meta and take a hit back like a champ, something we don't really see on the meta. And it can do so with zero cost bar a Mega Stone, unlike Landorus-T which has to be Scarfed to even compare. Offensively, Flying hits a lot and the meta is really struggling when it comes to Flying-resists. What I'm saying is that by design of stats and typing alone it can basically threaten a significant portion of the metagame.
Mega Salamence has what I feel a negative influence to the metagame. What was previously "fast" (110-ish) isn't so fast anymore, and if a mon can't touch it it's pretty much a liability; both effects take hits on certain some mons' viabilty. For example, I haven't really seen a single Sun team in high-level play mainly because Charizard-Y and co. are basically Mega Mence bait, though the presence of Mega Diance is a factor too. Mons that it can set up / beat like Heatran and Venu also dipped. MegaMence's presence is really felt on how it shifts the metagame.
One more thing I haven't said is that: DD MegaMence is great to a fault. It has the typing, stats, and offensive pressure to pretty much safely set-up and be in a position for an endgame; it also has Intimidate for a base ability to be aid in taking hits. It can easily force its way into boosts which lets it become much more; it can pretty much favorably force endgames or situations that inevitably lead to it. It can use its resists pretty effectively for set-up chances too, like stuff like Tran or Hitmontop are basically set-up bait. It's also pretty easy to support; redirection pretty much gives MegaMence an easier time setting up and makes it all the more threatening. Redirection also keeps it safe while it goes on to take out things, make the sweep go on longer and safer. The maintenance cost is low, but the payoff is really high. It's nothing like your basic set-up + redirection; it's not like Kang who only boosts in Attack and is still pretty prone to damage and has somewhat bland typing, nor is it like MegaTyranitar who is still relatively slow, prone to spread and priority, and only has average-powered attacks. MegaSalamence has the stats, powerful moves and typing to get away with this kind of set-up. And it can do so with only Return as a move; it would be much more potent one would carry Dragon Claw or another coverage move on it. The boosted Speed when setting up means that you can't really stop it with Tailwind, and its bulk + typing means that it isn't prone to priority. It can also use Substitute to block Intimidate or Roost to increase longetivity which is nifty while setting up.
Still, it still has some checks, but this is where redirection comes in. Would-be checks would just be a nuisance thanks to redirection; Intimidate an annoyance. It could also just switch out and let its teammates handle said checks and nuisances like TR. It's a 6v6 game and Mence has more slots to go back to, and it can be a shit with Intimidate while waiting. Regardless, with support it can pretty much go tear things apart. Though the last statement applies to everything, unlike everything else MegaMence is pretty much able to take advantage fully by design relative to the metagame.
I'm leaning on banning this thing. also i made this really late so w/e
Inserting this out of the blue sort of, but I've been laddering a bit more after reqs and I guess maybe I don't want Salamencite banned after all. I think when it comes down to it, there's going to become an archetype of Dragon Dance Mega Salamence, and while the mentality of "I'd rather not deal with that shit" comes to mind, I think it's probably better to just accept it and let it be. I don't think it's as busted as I originally thought it was- the whole "redirection also helps against Mence" argument is solid, and I think if you're running Special, it's not that much of a nuisance anyways. I'm kind of glad this suspect test has dragged out for what seems like forever, as I think I'm starting to see more signs in the posts here and on the ladder as well that people are learning how to not over-prepare for it or over-focus on using it, but are actually starting to slowly work it into the metagame a bit and see how it fits. I think it certainly will stay as a staple in the meta if left unbanned, but I don't think it's going to really hurt the health of it that much. It's something I guess I'm not as scared to say "let's give it a few months and revisit it once the meta has developed with Mega Salamence in it."
I've put in way too many games using both a team with MegaMence and two other teams that are well-teched to deal with it, and I'm actually kind of interested to see it in SPL. I'd love to drop the teams I've used and whatnot, but I'm going to likely end up using one or two of them (or a variant of them) during the season at some point and would rather not drop them beforehand. I get that I typically advocate for sharing teams / replays / info as a learning tool, and I'd love to share them here, but when you're playing for a team, it's different than playing for yourself. I hope I don't have to explain this one any further...
I've put in way too many games using both a team with MegaMence and two other teams that are well-teched to deal with it, and I'm actually kind of interested to see it in SPL. I'd love to drop the teams I've used and whatnot, but I'm going to likely end up using one or two of them (or a variant of them) during the season at some point and would rather not drop them beforehand. I get that I typically advocate for sharing teams / replays / info as a learning tool, and I'd love to share them here, but when you're playing for a team, it's different than playing for yourself. I hope I don't have to explain this one any further...
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When i found out that we were suspecttesting salamencite I was quite surprised because I honestly don't think Megamence is as broken as some people are making it out to be. I tested Megamence in OU and Ubers and there is no doubt it's broken but this is doubles. I find really weak argument the redirection thing because any pokemon that can set up is good with redirection , don't you fear a +2 megakanga with togekiss ? of course you do, don't you fear a +6 azumarill with amoongus (bunnies are the best thing evah !)? of course you do.
I think we should keep salamencite for now, see how the meta eveloves and if we see to much overcentralization we can ban it after 6 months but i think we really need time to see if this happens.
The main reason Salamance looks so strong imo is that the majority of our teams are build around countering megakanga using the musketeers, amoongus, talonflame, ferrothorn, landorus etc. these guys clearly can't do crap to megamence.
Alright finished my reqs and I'm a no-ban. There really isn't much to say that hasn't already been said so I'll sum it up quick. Salamence just isn't that incredible with a large number of viable checks and counters available, requiring almost no changes in teambuilding. I think Braverius hit the nail on the head when he said that DD Mence teams will become a new team archetype and I don't really see any problem with that. It's 4x ice weakness to ice and speed stat allow a lot of Pokemon that are already used to beat Scarf Landorus-T to make little or no changes to their sets to beat Mence, and while a Mence Return is powerful there are still loads of Pokemon that can shrug off the hit and OHKO back, or just outspeed and KO.
Please don't reply to this with calcs of "+2 mence KOS and its easy to sack half my team to get a DD and a sub and amoonguss on the field" because I'm just done with having to read that.
Please don't reply to this with calcs of "+2 mence KOS and its easy to sack half my team to get a DD and a sub and amoonguss on the field" because I'm just done with having to read that.
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the whole centralization in a doubles metagame got me thinking 'when has this happened before, and what was the response?'
the first thing that popped into my head was vgc2010 topogre (Hitmontop+kyogre. here's a quick article by makiri http://nuggetbridge.com/articles/history-lesson-hitmontop-and-why-you-use-it-now/). this was good because kyogre had a strong water spout and hitmontop had the ability to support it well through fake out, feint, wide guard, quick guard. a good summation of the influence of this core from makiri's article: 'You either found a way to counter topogre without losing to other teams, or you used TopOgre yourself.'
the response
examples of counterteaming it included: abomasnow, trick room, parasect, and i think the best example is the speed creep of opposing hitmontops
at the beginning of vgc2010, people ran 252 hp/252 atk hitmontops. by the end of vgc2010, you were seeing max speed hitmontops to beat other hitmontops to the punch and fake out first for their own kyogre.
i would encourage all others who have played vgc2010 to input on what they felt about topogre. some tags for people i believe who have played vgc2010 (if possible, a quick response to the following 3 questions would be lovely) makiri TheFourthChaser lucariojr tlyee61 Stats Mizuhime
did you believe topogre was overcentralizing to a negative extent?
would you have banned it if you could?
how does this relate to mega salamence in your opinion?
my response hidden to not bias others' responses from the get go
please remember to relate it to salamence :]
the first thing that popped into my head was vgc2010 topogre (Hitmontop+kyogre. here's a quick article by makiri http://nuggetbridge.com/articles/history-lesson-hitmontop-and-why-you-use-it-now/). this was good because kyogre had a strong water spout and hitmontop had the ability to support it well through fake out, feint, wide guard, quick guard. a good summation of the influence of this core from makiri's article: 'You either found a way to counter topogre without losing to other teams, or you used TopOgre yourself.'
the response
examples of counterteaming it included: abomasnow, trick room, parasect, and i think the best example is the speed creep of opposing hitmontops
at the beginning of vgc2010, people ran 252 hp/252 atk hitmontops. by the end of vgc2010, you were seeing max speed hitmontops to beat other hitmontops to the punch and fake out first for their own kyogre.
i would encourage all others who have played vgc2010 to input on what they felt about topogre. some tags for people i believe who have played vgc2010 (if possible, a quick response to the following 3 questions would be lovely) makiri TheFourthChaser lucariojr tlyee61 Stats Mizuhime
did you believe topogre was overcentralizing to a negative extent?
would you have banned it if you could?
how does this relate to mega salamence in your opinion?
my response hidden to not bias others' responses from the get go
although overcentralization existed, i do not believe it came to the point of warranting a ban.
i did not think it was overcentralizing to a negative extent as there were still a fair amount of creativity in teams. you could beat topogre while still building a variety of teams. i think you can find some in the nugget bridge archives.
i believe salamence is in about the same bracket of strength and thus does not warrant a ban. there is still a fair amount of possible creativity as obviated in many posts above me
i did not think it was overcentralizing to a negative extent as there were still a fair amount of creativity in teams. you could beat topogre while still building a variety of teams. i think you can find some in the nugget bridge archives.
i believe salamence is in about the same bracket of strength and thus does not warrant a ban. there is still a fair amount of possible creativity as obviated in many posts above me
please remember to relate it to salamence :]
I don't care much about the Salamence stuff but I will respond to finally.
did you believe topogre was overcentralizing to a negative extent?
Yes, it ruined the Regionals metagame that season. The team was easy to use and published for everyone to see. This caused bad players to become good players for people who picked it up. I can name several people who either just started playing VGC/Pokemon or were known to be bad players and succeeded with it. Because of this it caused a clear over centralization of the meta. As I said in the article you need to use it or heavily counter it, which could lead to a team that was poor in other match-ups. Teams that were seen as "counters" weren't actually counters most of the time. VGC really became less fun for a lot of players during TopOgre's reign.
would you have banned it if you could?
Despite that answer, I would still say no to banning it. History proves me right here in all the VGC metagames. TopOgre started to fall off hard towards the end of Regionals going into Nationals. It was still very good but the tech people developed to beat it caused it to lose its power. I'm going to relate this to another recent VGC terror, Kangashkan. For a large part of the season it was very dominating, however as people got experience facing it, it started to drop off dramatically. It went from 43% of top cut teams at winter regionals to 0% top cut and only 23% overall at worlds. VGC players are amazing at adjusting to overpowered Pokemon and being a doubles metagame helps that. TopOgre and Kangaskhan were noob stompers and could destroy unprepared teams, but as the meta evolved and the overall skill of the players in a tournament got better, they dropped off dramatically.
how does this relate to mega salamence in your opinion?
Salamence seems to belong to the noob stompers. Something that can easily beat unprepared opponents but falter when playing the truly skilled ones. At the end of the day this is entirely conjecture as what I've seen of Salamence is very little and I don't have a horse in this race. You have the unique position of being able to ban something whereas in VGC that does not exist and people need to actively evolve with the metagame.
did you believe topogre was overcentralizing to a negative extent?
Yes, it ruined the Regionals metagame that season. The team was easy to use and published for everyone to see. This caused bad players to become good players for people who picked it up. I can name several people who either just started playing VGC/Pokemon or were known to be bad players and succeeded with it. Because of this it caused a clear over centralization of the meta. As I said in the article you need to use it or heavily counter it, which could lead to a team that was poor in other match-ups. Teams that were seen as "counters" weren't actually counters most of the time. VGC really became less fun for a lot of players during TopOgre's reign.
would you have banned it if you could?
Despite that answer, I would still say no to banning it. History proves me right here in all the VGC metagames. TopOgre started to fall off hard towards the end of Regionals going into Nationals. It was still very good but the tech people developed to beat it caused it to lose its power. I'm going to relate this to another recent VGC terror, Kangashkan. For a large part of the season it was very dominating, however as people got experience facing it, it started to drop off dramatically. It went from 43% of top cut teams at winter regionals to 0% top cut and only 23% overall at worlds. VGC players are amazing at adjusting to overpowered Pokemon and being a doubles metagame helps that. TopOgre and Kangaskhan were noob stompers and could destroy unprepared teams, but as the meta evolved and the overall skill of the players in a tournament got better, they dropped off dramatically.
how does this relate to mega salamence in your opinion?
Salamence seems to belong to the noob stompers. Something that can easily beat unprepared opponents but falter when playing the truly skilled ones. At the end of the day this is entirely conjecture as what I've seen of Salamence is very little and I don't have a horse in this race. You have the unique position of being able to ban something whereas in VGC that does not exist and people need to actively evolve with the metagame.
i dont believe that mega-mence should be banned
my main reason for this is because it isn't actually as versatile as many people claim for it to be.
some of the arguments beforehand have talked about how you don't know which set mega-mence is, however, the special mence set is quite underwhelming, and regular mence (w/ specs,scarf,LO) isnt much better.
as for physical mence, i have to agree with a lot of things kylecole has said.
a lot of people are stating that mega mence can set up with almost no cost whatsoever, however, i dont think thats true. w/ intimidate, mence is put in a position where it cant destory everything, not to mention wOw.
yes, mence can learn refresh, but are you actually going to use refresh on it is the question.
i think it's also worth mentioning that trick room just completely shuts down mence, and with redirection and what not, u can set up trick room.
im still on the fence however for a ban
my main reason for this is because it isn't actually as versatile as many people claim for it to be.
some of the arguments beforehand have talked about how you don't know which set mega-mence is, however, the special mence set is quite underwhelming, and regular mence (w/ specs,scarf,LO) isnt much better.
as for physical mence, i have to agree with a lot of things kylecole has said.
a lot of people are stating that mega mence can set up with almost no cost whatsoever, however, i dont think thats true. w/ intimidate, mence is put in a position where it cant destory everything, not to mention wOw.
yes, mence can learn refresh, but are you actually going to use refresh on it is the question.
i think it's also worth mentioning that trick room just completely shuts down mence, and with redirection and what not, u can set up trick room.
im still on the fence however for a ban
Personally, I'm leaning towards no ban mainly paralleling with KyleCole's reasoning (there honestly just isnt anything new to say with a previous 8 pages of arguments.) Physical megamence is stopped cold by rotom-h, which burns it and makes it kinda useless. Respectively, special mence is stopped cold by players that arent shit. You can make the argument that "burns wouldnt happen with follow me or rage powder support," but with that logic, you could justify 99% of setup sweepers as broken as well, making a case for double dance rhyperior being broken as well. Still, though, megamence (without a +1 from ddance) is outsped and KOed by an ice beam from darkrai or flinched to death by an air slash from shaymin-sky. Like kylecole said, mence wont exactly force any remarkable changes in teambuilding because of its wide array of checks, but it will be something to look out for.
At the start of the discussion I was of the opinion that Mence wasn't broken, but after using it, it swung my opinion a little. When teambuilding I always look and check I can deal with playstyles such a weather, tailwind and trick room. All their own style of play, which many different combos and possibilities. However I also had to start asking, could I deal with Rachi and Mence. I understood that every team will inherently lose more to one particular playstyle than others, but with Mence, I had to (or at least should) think about having one move over another, arguably more effective one.
This wasn't a problem, as I had used blizzard suicune before, but I would normally much rather carry ice beam, as 70% acc moves aren't always the best idea, and can screw you over if it misses when lando tried to drop rock slides on you, which ice beam doesn't run the risk of.
I was then leading towards ban after watching some room tours with people using it, as well as using it myself. I'm still a little up in the air about what vote I want to make, but I'm close. I don't agree that it limits teambuilding, as by this logic trick room limits teambuilding because you 'have to' be able to counter trick room in some form, and should be suspected also. Which is dumb. Mence limits teambuilding about as much sleep spam or kang+moonguss rage powder, both of which have been suspected before (Kang, not mushroom), and have not been banned. Kang+redirection and mence+redirection share some things in my opinion, because although kang has less bulk it has much fewer weakness', neutral to spread moves, and has access priority, although lacking intimidate.
Xzern already mentioned that after 9 pages there isn't much new to say, so its all based on opinion at this point. I think I'll end up voting to ban, because although by itself it would still be amazing, it just so happened to luck into a parter as perfect as jirachi and because of this I think its a little too strong for the current metagame.
This wasn't a problem, as I had used blizzard suicune before, but I would normally much rather carry ice beam, as 70% acc moves aren't always the best idea, and can screw you over if it misses when lando tried to drop rock slides on you, which ice beam doesn't run the risk of.
I was then leading towards ban after watching some room tours with people using it, as well as using it myself. I'm still a little up in the air about what vote I want to make, but I'm close. I don't agree that it limits teambuilding, as by this logic trick room limits teambuilding because you 'have to' be able to counter trick room in some form, and should be suspected also. Which is dumb. Mence limits teambuilding about as much sleep spam or kang+moonguss rage powder, both of which have been suspected before (Kang, not mushroom), and have not been banned. Kang+redirection and mence+redirection share some things in my opinion, because although kang has less bulk it has much fewer weakness', neutral to spread moves, and has access priority, although lacking intimidate.
Xzern already mentioned that after 9 pages there isn't much new to say, so its all based on opinion at this point. I think I'll end up voting to ban, because although by itself it would still be amazing, it just so happened to luck into a parter as perfect as jirachi and because of this I think its a little too strong for the current metagame.
Note: we are running this suspect like ubers, any post that doesn't comply with what the council wants will not be credited.
Pastelle
we're all star stuff
After finally earning my reqs, and personally using Mega Salamence on a semi trick room team, my opinion has changed little. There isn't much for me to say without repeating what everyone else has said, but Mega Salamence simply doesn't over centralize. Only one play style of Mega Mence can be considered "broken" (Substitute/DDance/Redirection), but it can be easily countered with a shit-ton of things. Everything Salamence can excel at can be countered with common mons and strategies (not to mention that the other strategies aren't good enough to be justified using over the DDance/Sub set, or just using a different Mega altogether). To say the least, I wouldn't be scared of Mence if I have one strong Ice Beam user on my team.
I'm voting no ban.
I'm voting no ban.
Idk if my recs count (there was no current ladder to get recs on by the time I was ready to start on it) but from friendlies and watching battles and stuff, I think it's not broken. It is not centralizing IMO. To me, it's a threat that teams can be weak to, but it does not take any extra effort to check or counter on a team that would otherwise be wasted. Rain teams are usually very weak to ferrothorn, and sun teams are weak to Landorous. Does that mean that they're broken? No. People say it's broken with Jirachi as a partner, but because of the numerous amounts of threats weak to both fire and ice and dark and ghost and (too a lesser extent) rock and dragon, you team isn't strained too much to check them.
The two main reasons it isn't broken IMO can be summed up simply.
1) It has common and exploitable weaknesses
2) It NEEDS to get a boost to be as big of a threat as anyone says it is, and that can be tough because it's prone to being double targeted. If mence can have a partner, then so can the side without mence.
The two main reasons it isn't broken IMO can be summed up simply.
1) It has common and exploitable weaknesses
2) It NEEDS to get a boost to be as big of a threat as anyone says it is, and that can be tough because it's prone to being double targeted. If mence can have a partner, then so can the side without mence.
I've been against a ban from the start and that still stands.
It is an amazing Mega, but so is Mega-Kangaskhan, while they are not completely comparable, they do have similarities, such as being very strong physical attacking "set-up sweepers". If you don't come prepared and you let it set up on you, you will lose and you deserve that. But bringing Tailwind and/or Icy Wind will stop Mega Salamence from killing half your team. It is only when Salamence is paired with a redirector it will give you some trouble, but you should be prepared for this, as the most common one is Jirachi+DD Mence, Darkrai for example can handle this perfectly.
Pretty much everything has been said about this Mega throughout this thread, and it's just not worthy of a ban when it is thoroughly easy to check, and only has the potential to sweep after setting up.
Also, literally no one was using MegaMence when I was laddering on the current ladder, but nearly everyone brought counters to it, somebody even had a Rotom-Frost...
It is an amazing Mega, but so is Mega-Kangaskhan, while they are not completely comparable, they do have similarities, such as being very strong physical attacking "set-up sweepers". If you don't come prepared and you let it set up on you, you will lose and you deserve that. But bringing Tailwind and/or Icy Wind will stop Mega Salamence from killing half your team. It is only when Salamence is paired with a redirector it will give you some trouble, but you should be prepared for this, as the most common one is Jirachi+DD Mence, Darkrai for example can handle this perfectly.
Pretty much everything has been said about this Mega throughout this thread, and it's just not worthy of a ban when it is thoroughly easy to check, and only has the potential to sweep after setting up.
Also, literally no one was using MegaMence when I was laddering on the current ladder, but nearly everyone brought counters to it, somebody even had a Rotom-Frost...
Although towards the beginning of a suspect I was of the opinion that Mega Mence was broken due to a combination of its sheer power, ability, effectiveness when paired w/ certain redirectors (Jirachi), etc... my opinion on it has shifted to not broken.
Despite a lot of mence c-teaming on the current ladder, I still decided to make use of a team with bulky DD mence, follow me jirachi, and some other support such as tailwind on the ladder to get a better feel for its capabilities. In my experience, while a mence with a DD safely under its belt is indeed frightening, even moreso when behind a substitute, the problem is that it usually takes a fair bit of support from its partner to get mence set up in this fashion. Its bulk coupled with intimidate certainly increases its setup capabilities and potential, but its still prone to chip damage while it sets up, namely fake out, weather damage, substitute, spread moves such as rock slide, icy wind, hyper voice, etc... Another shortcoming with mence is that it can struggle versus certain playstyles/support options, namely tailwind, rain, and trick room. I acknowledge that mence's checks can and do vary depending on the set (mence w/out sub is more vulnerable to status and intimidate, mence w/out dd has trouble breaking fatter threats such as Rotom-W, Lando-T, Rotom-H, etc... Mence with more coverage essentially lets it bypass certain checks at the significant cost of being checked easier by other mons and support options such as status, fake out, and redirection [argument goes both ways])... the main point is that mence's checks do vary, but aren't insanely obscure (sure there do exist some less than viable options to bypass it, but there are certainly viable options that can be slid into a team), and mence can be checked by tactfully applying pressure on it with WoW, t-wave, fake out, redirection, etc.
So these are pretty much my thoughts on mega mence. Is it powerful? Bulky? A metagame titan? Sure, but accounting for its presence through teambuilder should allow teams to apply adequate pressure versus mence so that its not an overpowering threat (at least, this was my experience when building for and against it). Either way, if it does become apparent later that Mega Mence causes extreme unbalance to the metagame, we could definitely take a second look at it. However, I don't believe this right now, so I'm going no ban.
Despite a lot of mence c-teaming on the current ladder, I still decided to make use of a team with bulky DD mence, follow me jirachi, and some other support such as tailwind on the ladder to get a better feel for its capabilities. In my experience, while a mence with a DD safely under its belt is indeed frightening, even moreso when behind a substitute, the problem is that it usually takes a fair bit of support from its partner to get mence set up in this fashion. Its bulk coupled with intimidate certainly increases its setup capabilities and potential, but its still prone to chip damage while it sets up, namely fake out, weather damage, substitute, spread moves such as rock slide, icy wind, hyper voice, etc... Another shortcoming with mence is that it can struggle versus certain playstyles/support options, namely tailwind, rain, and trick room. I acknowledge that mence's checks can and do vary depending on the set (mence w/out sub is more vulnerable to status and intimidate, mence w/out dd has trouble breaking fatter threats such as Rotom-W, Lando-T, Rotom-H, etc... Mence with more coverage essentially lets it bypass certain checks at the significant cost of being checked easier by other mons and support options such as status, fake out, and redirection [argument goes both ways])... the main point is that mence's checks do vary, but aren't insanely obscure (sure there do exist some less than viable options to bypass it, but there are certainly viable options that can be slid into a team), and mence can be checked by tactfully applying pressure on it with WoW, t-wave, fake out, redirection, etc.
So these are pretty much my thoughts on mega mence. Is it powerful? Bulky? A metagame titan? Sure, but accounting for its presence through teambuilder should allow teams to apply adequate pressure versus mence so that its not an overpowering threat (at least, this was my experience when building for and against it). Either way, if it does become apparent later that Mega Mence causes extreme unbalance to the metagame, we could definitely take a second look at it. However, I don't believe this right now, so I'm going no ban.
After reading people's different opinions on whether Salamencite should be banned or not, I have decided to go with a no-ban. I have finished my reqs on the alt "RequiemX Reqs" and I agree with the view in which Mega Salamence is not as overcentralizing as people may think, due to the fact that people should already be prepared for Landorus-Therian and Garchomp by packing Ice-Type coverage in their arsenal. It is also weak to speed control (Trick Room, Tailwind, Thunder Wave) and status (Will-O-Wisp, and Thunder Wave again), both of which are already things we see being used in the Doubles metagame to check faster threats and strong physical attackers.
Despite it's bulk, Mega Salamence is weak to double targeting, as it is unable to eliminate multiple threats at a time. This is especially true when it is sometimes unable to OHKO these threats without dealing super effective damage, which is possible due to Mega Salamence suffering from 4MSS. Since the most common sets include but are not limited to Return / Dragon Claw / Dragon Dance / Protect, with the occasional Fire Blast or Earthquake over another move, threats that survive are able to chip it down to a point where their partner can finish it on the same or next turn, as Mega Salamence can only take so many hits.
Mega Salamence paired with redirection also can be a nightmare to go against when team matchups aren't in your favour, and the solid core of Mega Salamence + Jirachi is a good reason why most of the people in the suspect test are leaning towards a ban. However, Doubles is a fast paced metagame where battles involving more experienced players forces them to either lead with this core or switch it in, and this forces players to learn how to take advantage of given opportunities and to lead more appropriately in battles, both of which is healthy to the development of the players in the metagame. Furthermore, although Mega Salamence is unrivalled in its offensive prowess after setting up, other set up sweepers such as Azumarill and Kangaskhan can overwhelm teams just as well once they have set up under redirection support, and DD Mega Salamence just strengthens the rule that players should not give their opponents the chance to set up.
Finally, agreeing with what makiri said, I feel that Mega Salamence would be dominant against unprepared opponents and their teams who don't adknowledge the threat that Mega Salamence brings, but the pressure it puts on the opponents would diminish in the presence of more experienced players who know how to handle Mega Salamence. I do believe that not banning Salamencite would help improve the overall skill level of players in the Doubles metagame, as giving them time to face these threats will allow people to evolve with the metagame and gain experience on how to defeat these strong Pokémon. Playing around these strong threats would help develop the average player's awareness as to not waste any turns or give any opportunities for their opponents, and would make them learn to keep an offensive presence on the field so that it is harder for Mega Salamence to set up.
Despite it's bulk, Mega Salamence is weak to double targeting, as it is unable to eliminate multiple threats at a time. This is especially true when it is sometimes unable to OHKO these threats without dealing super effective damage, which is possible due to Mega Salamence suffering from 4MSS. Since the most common sets include but are not limited to Return / Dragon Claw / Dragon Dance / Protect, with the occasional Fire Blast or Earthquake over another move, threats that survive are able to chip it down to a point where their partner can finish it on the same or next turn, as Mega Salamence can only take so many hits.
Mega Salamence paired with redirection also can be a nightmare to go against when team matchups aren't in your favour, and the solid core of Mega Salamence + Jirachi is a good reason why most of the people in the suspect test are leaning towards a ban. However, Doubles is a fast paced metagame where battles involving more experienced players forces them to either lead with this core or switch it in, and this forces players to learn how to take advantage of given opportunities and to lead more appropriately in battles, both of which is healthy to the development of the players in the metagame. Furthermore, although Mega Salamence is unrivalled in its offensive prowess after setting up, other set up sweepers such as Azumarill and Kangaskhan can overwhelm teams just as well once they have set up under redirection support, and DD Mega Salamence just strengthens the rule that players should not give their opponents the chance to set up.
Finally, agreeing with what makiri said, I feel that Mega Salamence would be dominant against unprepared opponents and their teams who don't adknowledge the threat that Mega Salamence brings, but the pressure it puts on the opponents would diminish in the presence of more experienced players who know how to handle Mega Salamence. I do believe that not banning Salamencite would help improve the overall skill level of players in the Doubles metagame, as giving them time to face these threats will allow people to evolve with the metagame and gain experience on how to defeat these strong Pokémon. Playing around these strong threats would help develop the average player's awareness as to not waste any turns or give any opportunities for their opponents, and would make them learn to keep an offensive presence on the field so that it is harder for Mega Salamence to set up.
one last chance even though noone changes their mind around here lol
<@Lolk> i gave up on mence being banned
<@Lolk> when literally everyone ignored my post
<@Arcticblast> assuming you've cleared out all of the many Pokemon that can take a +1 Return and chunk it
<@Lolk> and were like
<@Lolk> herp derp its weak to ice not broke
<&Mizuhime> you mean
<&Mizuhime> the
<&Mizuhime> 18% from 252 landorus
<&Mizuhime> ?
<&Mizuhime> or wait
<&Mizuhime> you're using like 15 checks on one team
<&Mizuhime> beucase it's so centralizing that you need to
<&Mizuhime> right my bad
<&Mizuhime> i forgot that was healthy for a metagame
<&Mizuhime> !
<@Lolk> i actually thought joims ho-oh analogy was pretty good lol
<&Mizuhime> we appreciate cancer in this tier
<&Mizuhime> MY BAD
<@Arcticblast> lol
<@Lolk> ho-oh is weak to rock
<@Lolk> lotta stuff runs rock slide
<&Mizuhime> i've failed as a tier leader
<@Lolk> not broke
<&Laga> well lolk the thing is
<&Mizuhime> mence not being banned is absolutely retarded
<@Lolk> mence even has a way better speed tier, dragon dance, and intimidate
<&Laga> ho-oh would probably be the same as mence
<&Laga> in brokenness
<&Laga> oh that's what ur saying
<@Lolk> and hooh has special defense and sacred fite
<@Lolk> fire
<@Lolk> *
<&Laga> this is why suspect testing in doubles doesn't truly work
<&Laga> because
<@Lolk> and return/brave bird hit the same
<&Mizuhime> autistic voters
<&Mizuhime> ?
<@Lolk> brave bird a little harder with lo
<&Laga> nothing is truly broken in practice
<&Laga> there are just mons that are
<&Mizuhime> i am actually so mad
<&Laga> that step ahead
<&Mizuhime> that it won't be banned
<&Laga> where you either use it or counter it
<&Laga> aka mence n a lil bit kanga
<&Mizuhime> like i've lost all hope and drive to play this tier
<&Mizuhime> if it's not banned
<&Laga> and almost all ubers would be in the same group
<@Lolk> so by keeping mence free
<@Lolk> we are just transitioning to dubers
<&Laga> well
<&Laga> by keeping mence free
<&Mizuhime> we promote an unbalanced and an unhealthy tier
<&Laga> you have a solid argument to drop half of all ubers
<&Laga> because those would be less centralizing
<&Mizuhime> becuase a few autistic people don't understand how the fucking tiering system works
<&Mizuhime> more than a few, sadly
<&Mizuhime> no point in playing this tier if the players can't even realize what a truly broken mon is
<@Lolk> when literally everyone ignored my post
<@Arcticblast> assuming you've cleared out all of the many Pokemon that can take a +1 Return and chunk it
<@Lolk> and were like
<@Lolk> herp derp its weak to ice not broke
<&Mizuhime> you mean
<&Mizuhime> the
<&Mizuhime> 18% from 252 landorus
<&Mizuhime> ?
<&Mizuhime> or wait
<&Mizuhime> you're using like 15 checks on one team
<&Mizuhime> beucase it's so centralizing that you need to
<&Mizuhime> right my bad
<&Mizuhime> i forgot that was healthy for a metagame
<&Mizuhime> !
<@Lolk> i actually thought joims ho-oh analogy was pretty good lol
<&Mizuhime> we appreciate cancer in this tier
<&Mizuhime> MY BAD
<@Arcticblast> lol
<@Lolk> ho-oh is weak to rock
<@Lolk> lotta stuff runs rock slide
<&Mizuhime> i've failed as a tier leader
<@Lolk> not broke
<&Laga> well lolk the thing is
<&Mizuhime> mence not being banned is absolutely retarded
<@Lolk> mence even has a way better speed tier, dragon dance, and intimidate
<&Laga> ho-oh would probably be the same as mence
<&Laga> in brokenness
<&Laga> oh that's what ur saying
<@Lolk> and hooh has special defense and sacred fite
<@Lolk> fire
<@Lolk> *
<&Laga> this is why suspect testing in doubles doesn't truly work
<&Laga> because
<@Lolk> and return/brave bird hit the same
<&Mizuhime> autistic voters
<&Mizuhime> ?
<@Lolk> brave bird a little harder with lo
<&Laga> nothing is truly broken in practice
<&Laga> there are just mons that are
<&Mizuhime> i am actually so mad
<&Laga> that step ahead
<&Mizuhime> that it won't be banned
<&Laga> where you either use it or counter it
<&Laga> aka mence n a lil bit kanga
<&Mizuhime> like i've lost all hope and drive to play this tier
<&Mizuhime> if it's not banned
<&Laga> and almost all ubers would be in the same group
<@Lolk> so by keeping mence free
<@Lolk> we are just transitioning to dubers
<&Laga> well
<&Laga> by keeping mence free
<&Mizuhime> we promote an unbalanced and an unhealthy tier
<&Laga> you have a solid argument to drop half of all ubers
<&Laga> because those would be less centralizing
<&Mizuhime> becuase a few autistic people don't understand how the fucking tiering system works
<&Mizuhime> more than a few, sadly
<&Mizuhime> no point in playing this tier if the players can't even realize what a truly broken mon is
Hey, I forgot to post my alt (i was legasea), but Mence should really get banned. It really limits team building and all around has gargantuan bulk and attack that is unrivaled by anything else in Doubles. The other thing about Mence is that it doesnt HAVE TO run DD Sub EQ Frustration, it can run special, mixed, whatever it wants, nothing counters it besides like SpDef Zapdos with HP Ice... I feel like it will become a bigger problem when people start using its other sets. The other thing is it's really easy to pair it with something like Tailwind Zapdos to take care of everyones favorite mence check, Suicune.
I'm really garbage at theorymoning/arguing so I really won't try, but please ban mence.
I'm really garbage at theorymoning/arguing so I really won't try, but please ban mence.
GiraGoomy
when you see a good meme
After all this time in the suspect test I personally still have no idea what I'm going to vote. I think I'm leaning more towards banning MegaMence mostly due to the fact I feel as if there just aren't enough mons that can 100% safely switch into it and then beat it. Since I feel everything has been said in the last 10 pages, I thought I'd just say I think the main thing that stands out to me for MegaMence compared to other strong mega's such as Kangaskhan is the wide variety of attacks it can learn and the movesets it can run as well as how it can be supported by team members to make it last even longer on the field. I'm also very bad when it comes to arguing about this stuff so I'm sorry if everything mentioned in this post is complete ass lmao.
Stratos
Banned deucer.
i know i said playing around mence didn't present itself as too much of a trouble in an earlier post but I do really think that where mence is a bitch is in building teams. I was trying to build earlier today and honestly, there's just a limited subset of teams that mence forces you into running as far as i've seen, because otherwise you can be pretty steamrolled lategame. Kang was dominant in XY, but it wasn't a case of "you can't run this team because of kang;" it was more that you had to add little adjustments or maybe change a mon to make your kang matchup better. With mence isn't not just that you need things which can beat it, you need multiple of them, and they need to be HARD counters, and you can't really run things that are weak to mence either. I don't think it's too bad to play around but I don't like building around mence either.
That said, still undecided...
That said, still undecided...
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