Why do you use Psychic, rather than Dragon Pulse? Both have base power 90 and STAB. Both are resisted by Steel types. Psychic has the added downside of being resisted by Psychic types and dealing no damage to Dark types. Especially given that three of the most common steels (Jirachi, Metagross, Bronzong) are Psychic/Steel and thus double resist Psychic, and one of Latios's biggest counters is Tyranitar, who is immune to Psychic (and thus gets a free Dragon Dance or retreat-boosted Pursuit), Psychic seems like a Bad Idea.
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np: Latios - "unban me"
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Why do you use Psychic, rather than Dragon Pulse? Both have base power 90 and STAB. Both are resisted by Steel types. Psychic has the added downside of being resisted by Psychic types and dealing no damage to Dark types. Especially given that three of the most common steels (Jirachi, Metagross, Bronzong) are Psychic/Steel and thus double resist Psychic, and one of Latios's biggest counters is Tyranitar, who is immune to Psychic (and thus gets a free Dragon Dance or retreat-boosted Pursuit), Psychic seems like a Bad Idea.
Dragon Pulse > Psychic
And Haunter, I assume you're running the trapper set with a boatload of Special Defence EVs?
And Haunter, I assume you're running the trapper set with a boatload of Special Defence EVs?
Yes, with the 240 hp\188 sp.def suggested in the analysis metagross takes 39.06% - 45.98% from a timid latios specs surf. But as stated before, the problem is that you can't switch in more than once, so you must hope to kill latios with pursuit or meteor mash if you predict that he will stay in. The problem is that if you predict wrong and latios stays in while you pursuit him, then you're ruined.
Looks like Modest would have a chance of 2HKOing with Stealth Rock cancelling out Leftovers.
Am getting swept a lot and am now angry, shouldn't play when my mind's not in it <_<
Am getting swept a lot and am now angry, shouldn't play when my mind's not in it <_<
There's a chance that Latios might be equipped with a Choice Specs, which can do a lot more damage to Raikou that he can handle if he switches in. Also, Latios nowdays seem to carry DD, thus they can OHKO Raikou with Earthquake/Outrage.
So no, Raikou serves more of a revenge killer to Latios than as a counter.
I like Psychic more for Machamp and other Bulky Fighters which arent KOd by Dragon Pulse.
In Tyranitars case, Dragon Pulse doesnt KO, so with Psychic or without Psychic it will threaten Latios always with Pursuit/Crunch.
What i meant is that Raikou works as a Latios counter when you bring it on a Surf/HP Fire/Thunderbolt (i know few Latios use T-bolt, but its a possibility). I know Latios can do several damage to Raikou with Specs but if you try to predict a little bit it will work.
If your opponent has a Latios facing a 35% Metagross on your side, it wont use Dragon Pulse, the obious choice would be Surf or T-Bolt. Heres where Raikou comes in.
Raikou works as a counter on specific scenarios, like Blissey does.
If Latios has DD, Blissey stops being a counter. If Latios has specs and trick, Blissey stops being a counter. The counters are REAL counters on a specific scenario, not in EVERY scenario.
My first thought...
I just have to say that I fucking hate DS Memento Latios.
As gimmicky as it sounds, that thing and Gliscor can easily combo up to get +2 attack and speed passed to a Metagross late in the game which leads to the end of a game quite frequently. Plus with those screens up, Metagross is a hard fucker to take down. I've noticed this being used quite extensively on the ladder and am going to use it myself since it causes a fair bit of trouble for my team(s).
I just have to say that I fucking hate DS Memento Latios.
As gimmicky as it sounds, that thing and Gliscor can easily combo up to get +2 attack and speed passed to a Metagross late in the game which leads to the end of a game quite frequently. Plus with those screens up, Metagross is a hard fucker to take down. I've noticed this being used quite extensively on the ladder and am going to use it myself since it causes a fair bit of trouble for my team(s).
Ditto. I played about 5 matches in a row against someone who ran that combo. It is FUCKING annoying as hell, if not extremely effective.
Just played some games, and I find Latios not that troublesome, I found that paralysis and burn can ruin the memento teams to an extent, so they didn't cause me much problems, meh, maybe its was just some bad mispredicts, or luck, I don't know. :/
So right now, I would probably vote OU as he has not given me too much trouble, and I am kinda hoping he comes down to OU so I can use him in wifi battles as well as shoddybattles, but from reading some posts here, that doesn't seem likely. :/
So right now, I would probably vote OU as he has not given me too much trouble, and I am kinda hoping he comes down to OU so I can use him in wifi battles as well as shoddybattles, but from reading some posts here, that doesn't seem likely. :/
If this happens then maybe you should adapt. :P Get a fast taunter, phazer, whatever works for you. I ran into someone who used DS Memento strategy and my team got wrecked by it. So I changed one move on my team and 3-0'd him the next time I went up against him. You can beat it without getting overly specific.
I haven't seen many Latios recently so I don't have anything to report on him specifically.
Actually, I have had lots of people wisp my Metagross following the baton pass, but even then, he's still plenty strong if you dealt some minor damage beforehand.
also, MoPcross is a fucking amazing lead since every Gross lead(probably the most popular lead) will SR first, giving you a chance to use megahorn. Actually, it's also really effective against Latios. Then when their Metagross tries to explode, you get a quick sub up. Many people tend to forget about guts when they send their Rotom in to wisp it.
also, MoPcross is a fucking amazing lead since every Gross lead(probably the most popular lead) will SR first, giving you a chance to use megahorn. Actually, it's also really effective against Latios. Then when their Metagross tries to explode, you get a quick sub up. Many people tend to forget about guts when they send their Rotom in to wisp it.
Oh yeah...
well MoPcross with Guts. Swarm is not finding much useage here anyway.
Scarf also makes for a nice Latios revenge killer.
Edit: Scarf Magmortar is pretty good as well. A fine solution for steels, a resist to steel is majorly helpful. HP Ice also catches Gliscor off guard since none of them have EQ -__-
well MoPcross with Guts. Swarm is not finding much useage here anyway.
Scarf also makes for a nice Latios revenge killer.
Edit: Scarf Magmortar is pretty good as well. A fine solution for steels, a resist to steel is majorly helpful. HP Ice also catches Gliscor off guard since none of them have EQ -__-
ScarfCross is a good revenge killer, but it requires more prediction and luck to be used effectively.
Ex:
You have Heracross and sent him in vs a Latios.
There are 2 Scenarios:
1) Latios stays and uses HP Fire or Draco Meteor
2) Latios switches out
In the first scenario the best move is Megahorn, in the second Pursuit. Seems very obious.
But after we mix the overpredictions, etc. If the Latios has 60% HP and stays in Pursuit WONT kill (Pursuit doesnt even OHKO on the switch if Latios has 100% Health) and Latios will be able to OHKO with DM or HP Fire.
But if you predict the stay in and it switches to a resistance, then you gave something like Scizor or Salamence a free turn to use SD/DD.
Its a 50/50 scenario where its hard to tell what your opponent will do. Kinda the same with a Scizor to counter Latios.
Not just because everyone seems to like using Heracross, but Gliscor is very useful. Taunt is extremely useful to hit opposing Gliscors that are part of the aforementioned DSLatios combo. U - Turning on the Latios that like to switch in is also fun; it usually takes off about ~40% off of Latios.
A good answer to Dual Screen combo is to use Encore on the Gliscor/Scizor while they set-up. That completely destroys the BP chain.
Just an idea...
Just an idea...
Gliscor has 95 base speed and access to Taunt.
So here are the Pokemon with Encore that can outspeed Gliscor.
Alakazam
Infernape
Jumpluff
Lopunny
Raichu
Slaking
Only two of the Pokemon listed above are OU/useful for most teams.
Alakazam is a pretty shitty Pokemon and this fact has been discussed in the Overrated Pokemon thread. Meanwhile he has no use for any defensive team considering his crap defenses.
Infernape is very frail and doesn't really have room to use Encore. He is also in the same boat as Alakazam. He will usually only find a slot on offensive teams.
Infernape leads are very common, and i use one with Encore.
Usually, if i can save that infernape, i do it, since its my answer to that annoying combo. And btw, when someone brings an infernape vs a gliscor the first thing you think is "hehe HP Ice, i got Yache, im going to get another SD" thats your chance to encore the Gliscore, even if its faster than the Infernape.
BTW, i said the encore idea thinking on that strategy, sorry for not explaining the whole thing.
I must say, that a disheartening number of my battles have come down to Latios vs. Latios speed ties. The Specs set really cannot be countered by anything other than a Blissey or specially-defensive Metagross or Bronzong; otherwise it can only be revenge-killed. The majority of the time I find myself playing 5 vs. 6, because I absolutely must keep my Scizor or Blissey alive until all 6 of my opponent's pokemon have been revealed, or risk losing to Latios.
I did not get to vote in the Latias test, but so far I'm leaning towards uber on this one.
I did not get to vote in the Latias test, but so far I'm leaning towards uber on this one.
On one of my more successful teams, my solution to the infamous Memento Gliscor Metagross strategy is Swords Dance Brick Break Scizor. There is not one way where everything goes smoothly, but the gist of it is switch in on Latios and keep Dancing. Scizor should have at least +2 after the Reflect and the Memento. Gliscor comes in, who usually doesn't Taunt Scizor because it feels like it (and Metagross) can take its attacks. So you Dance again if you feel like it, and Brick Break the screens, hopefully on the BP to Meta. Meta, from an Adamant 252 att spread, usually takes like 50%, and Metagross is usually hard pressed in taking down Scizor with its high base defense. Works for me.
Still, I would vote Latios uber at this point, with an equal mixture of the offensive and support characteristics.
Still, I would vote Latios uber at this point, with an equal mixture of the offensive and support characteristics.
I don't believe that Latios should be banned on the basis of his role in Baton Pass teams, I think most of these teams would work regardless of him, but he takes a somewhat viable strategy in such an aggressive metagame and makes it work better. Being able to not only setup dual screens (Reflect and Light Screen) but also sharply lower your opponent's attack forcing a switch (which gives a free round of boosting) is no small feat.
However if anything the argument for banning Latios should be that he over centralizes the metagame so much that he makes it where people have to build against the highly offensive versions (Specs, or DD) so much that they have no response to the support versions, but that's a falacious argument. If nothing else that is exactly what the metagame should be, people outhinking the rest of the herd (myself included since I am a weak battler) and taking something else and winning with it. If it was another pokemon that wasn't a suspect people would likely praise the inginuity of using that pokemon like that IMO.
However if anything the argument for banning Latios should be that he over centralizes the metagame so much that he makes it where people have to build against the highly offensive versions (Specs, or DD) so much that they have no response to the support versions, but that's a falacious argument. If nothing else that is exactly what the metagame should be, people outhinking the rest of the herd (myself included since I am a weak battler) and taking something else and winning with it. If it was another pokemon that wasn't a suspect people would likely praise the inginuity of using that pokemon like that IMO.
Except, preparing for Latios involves far more than simply checking it, as you can do with most other threats. Without multiple checks (I say checks, because Blissey is not even a counter), and ensuring that they stay alive until you know your opponent's whole team, you have a very good chance of being swept by something that (I'm guessing, as I have no statistics to base this on) will be on somewhere in the vicinity of 50% of the teams you face.
If a pokemon is so threatening that you have to base your strategy, and multiple team members, around countering not just that pokemon, but specific versions of that pokemon, which in turn opens you up to being beat by other versions of the same pokemon, then I feel that's a strong step in the direction of the support characteristic.
If a pokemon is so threatening that you have to base your strategy, and multiple team members, around countering not just that pokemon, but specific versions of that pokemon, which in turn opens you up to being beat by other versions of the same pokemon, then I feel that's a strong step in the direction of the support characteristic.
Syberia, I think you make some good points but you're overexaggerating a bit. You don't really have to keep stuff alive until you know your opponent's whole team, do you? Be honest. We all know that Latios is going to be on the opposing team unless it's Stall so, if anything, you just keep your checks alive for him, not the entire team.
But the real reason that strategies and teams are based entirely around Latios is because the only reason to go on Suspect over Standard is to use Latios. It shouldn't be the same in Standard, the Latias one isn't. Versatality-wise, Salamence is just as threatening as Latios so I don't think versatality is a good reason to send him back to Uber. The same thing will happen with Salamence; you base your team around beating DD and get swept by Specs or MixMence. In fact, I've found it very hard to sweep with Latios because everyone has a Scizor with Pursuit.
In short, the Suspect metagame probably isn't really what the Standard metagame will be if/when Latios arrives.
For the record, I haven't decided on my vote yet. I just felt like making a few points. I do think he has a few qualities of an Uber; he is VERY fast and has I think the fourth most powerful Draco Meteor in the game, behind Rayray and Palkai/Dialga.
But the real reason that strategies and teams are based entirely around Latios is because the only reason to go on Suspect over Standard is to use Latios. It shouldn't be the same in Standard, the Latias one isn't. Versatality-wise, Salamence is just as threatening as Latios so I don't think versatality is a good reason to send him back to Uber. The same thing will happen with Salamence; you base your team around beating DD and get swept by Specs or MixMence. In fact, I've found it very hard to sweep with Latios because everyone has a Scizor with Pursuit.
In short, the Suspect metagame probably isn't really what the Standard metagame will be if/when Latios arrives.
For the record, I haven't decided on my vote yet. I just felt like making a few points. I do think he has a few qualities of an Uber; he is VERY fast and has I think the fourth most powerful Draco Meteor in the game, behind Rayray and Palkai/Dialga.
That's exactly what I think... when testing latias, the suspect ladder was completely centralized around her because people played the suspect just to use her. Now that latias is OU, I don't see the same centralization on the standard ladder.
I ask again: when is latios test going to end?
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