np: Latios - "unban me"

[TAY]

Can we not try to make this a thread about "hey I don't like the test". Seriously, just read the PR thread - it explains everything (hint: Stage 3).

Honestly guys I haven't seen much stall out there. Maybe defensive teams, but that's about the extent of it except for a few players. I will disagree with the above posters and say that I think that the Latios metagame is a good bit more healthy and interesting to play that it was with Latias. While most players are running at least 2 steels / 1 dragon, the infamous "3 dragon / 3 steel" teams aren't really running rampant, and from my own experience I can say that Latios make them a lot less successful. Its high special attack encouraged people to run more than two types to stop the specs set, since Latios specs surf is actually usable outside of hitting steels (like against TTar, and hitting for neutral damage). With Latias that wasn't the case, so players commonly just rand defensive calm mind since the specs set didn't really hav enough oomph to break through stall and balanced teams. But with the extra attack Latios can keep the steels that countered Latias at bay!

Still haven't seen more than one Magnezone, or Scarfcross for that matter. Scizor is much harder to trap because he's always U-turning and Superpowering.

I have experience the same thing; fewer Magnezones means fewer Steels running around! Also there are plenty of other excellent ways of taking out Scizor that do not involve trapping it ^__^

 

[Azule]

Whilst Latios is not too powerful, what both the Lati@s's have done is created a centralised Metagame, which is not enjoyable. You either meet teams specificly made for Lati@s or you meet complete stall, which is not an enjoyable prospect.

 

[diamondfan1910]

Also there are plenty of other excellent ways of taking out Scizor that do not involve trapping it ^__^

Like setting up on him with Calm Mind Jirachi :D Actually, since Scizor is so eager to Pursuit everything in sight it makes it easier to set up on with Dragon Dancers.

But honestly, I really am not seeing Magnezone at all and he was in almost every battle in the Latias test.

Upon closer inspection CM Jirachi can break through Stall almost single-handedly, but the defensive teams that "aren't quite stall" are harder to beat because the common Swampert walls CM Jirachi, or mine at least (Flash Cannon/Thunderbolt).

Anyone notice a decline in Gyarados?

People say gg on the Suspect Ladder less than they do on the Standard Ladder.

 

[Tucker]

the first number is the average of your rating (not your Conservative Rating Estimate, which is used for the ladder), and the second number is your deviation. For example, if your rating is 1700-1800, your average is 1750 and your deviation is (1800-1700)/2 = 50, meaning that you meet the lower requirement (and are just shy of the upper requirement). You can find out what your rating is in the smogon shoddy server by right clicking your name and clicking "check rating" (or something to that effect).

I don't quite understand how are you supposed to meet 2 requirements.

 

[lilyhollow]

You don't have to reach both of them; if you only meet the lower requirement you have to do a little write-up for your vote (someone else can elaborate on this because I'm not sure of the exact details), but if you meet the upper requirement you don't.


edit: And yeah I've been noticing some more stall than usual, though I only play a few games daily for the most part. So far I've tried out Specs and Mixed DD Latios; the former is usually pretty well-prepared for most of the time, and the latter just doesn't seem to be that dangerous.

 

[XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2]

Think that the Soul Dew Clause could do with a bit of updating? Originally it was banned from ALL Pokemon (not just Lati@s) to prevent anyone from Tricking Soul Dew to the Opponent's Pokemon and then Tricking it back onto Lati@s, but really, if they're willing to do that much work for payoff that isn't that great, shouldn't they be allowed to? Even with Soul Dew, Lati@s is hardly unbeatable, especially with only 3 moves after Trick. I myself wouldn't even bother with so much work for so little payoff, but I just think banning the OPTION to do something that isn't really necessary.

 

[Kay [Old]]

Think that the Soul Dew Clause could do with a bit of updating? Originally it was banned from ALL Pokemon (not just Lati@s) to prevent anyone from Tricking Soul Dew to the Opponent's Pokemon and then Tricking it back onto Lati@s, but really, if they're willing to do that much work for payoff that isn't that great, shouldn't they be allowed to? Even with Soul Dew, Lati@s is hardly unbeatable, especially with only 3 moves after Trick. I myself wouldn't even bother with so much work for so little payoff, but I just think banning the OPTION to do something that isn't really necessary.

.....You don't think Soul Dew Lati@s is uber?

 

[XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2]

.....You don't think Soul Dew Lati@s is uber?

No, I definitely do, but I just don't think doing all that work to Trick Soul Dew back onto Lati@s has enough of a payoff for the investment to merit banning it.

Think about it, essentially, they've used up 3 whole turns (First Pokemon Tricks Soul Dew onto the opponent, Switches in Lati@s, Lati@s Tricks Soul Dew Back), devoted 2 Moveslots (one of which are Lati@s' 4 usable moveslots) AND 2 Item Slots (The Pokemon that's Tricking the Soul Dew onto the Opponent, and Lati@'s Item Slot) FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE to give Lati@s the equivalent of a permanent Calm Mind Boost.

Not to mention there's not even a guarantee of this Trickfest from paying off, as the Opponent can simply switch out once it gets a Soul Dew and sees Lati@s. Unless you Trap it. But then You'd be investing 2 more moveslots for the trapping move and Baton Pass. And, not to mention, if you had a counter for Lati@s with 4 usable moves, your counter will still probably work against a Soul Dew Lati@s with 3 Moveslots and a useless Trick.

 

[darkie]

Allowing Soul Dew on the ladder at all, regardless of how hard it is to get on Lati@s would be spoiling the results if you will. Perhaps we can test them with Soul Dew at a future date. Perhaps not. But as for the present, the validity of the test depends on Lati@s without a Soul Dew.

 

[lilyhollow]

Think that the Soul Dew Clause could do with a bit of updating? Originally it was banned from ALL Pokemon (not just Lati@s) to prevent anyone from Tricking Soul Dew to the Opponent's Pokemon and then Tricking it back onto Lati@s, but really, if they're willing to do that much work for payoff that isn't that great, shouldn't they be allowed to? Even with Soul Dew, Lati@s is hardly unbeatable, especially with only 3 moves after Trick. I myself wouldn't even bother with so much work for so little payoff, but I just think banning the OPTION to do something that isn't really necessary.

Even if the Trick scenario didn't exist, I'd still support banning Soul Dew altogether, because otherwise we'd be "banning an item on a Pokemon" and not just "banning an item." The former technically allows us to say "ok, let's ban Yache Berry on Garchomp and see if we can put him in OU then!" which is an argument people actually used to try and keep Garchomp in the game before it became Uber. We don't want the possibility of a mess like that happening ("OK but what if Wobbuffet can't hold Leftovers," "Staraptor is good for UU if we just ban it from using any Choice items!"), so I think it's perfectly reasonable to just ban the item outright.

 

[XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2]

Even if the Trick scenario didn't exist, I'd still support banning Soul Dew altogether, because otherwise we'd be "banning an item on a Pokemon" and not just "banning an item." The former technically allows us to say "ok, let's ban Yache Berry on Garchomp and see if we can put him in OU then!" which is an argument people actually used to try and keep Garchomp in the game before it became Uber. We don't want the possibility of a mess like that happening ("OK but what if Wobbuffet can't hold Leftovers," "Staraptor is good for UU if we just ban it from using any Choice items!"), so I think it's perfectly reasonable to just ban the item outright.

I do see the reasoning behind that. But I do believe Soul Dew is a bit of a special case since really, the item doesn't have any uses on any Pokemon BESIDES Lati@s, whereas Yache is useful on any Poke with an Ice weakness.

Regardless, I believe your explanation has let me understand the argument to ban Soul Dew altogether a bit better.

 

[umbarsc]

Except you're banning Soul Dew on Primeape for no apparent reason except for semantics. Registeel holding Soul Dew isn't any more broken than it is if it's holding no item, and less broken than if it's holding an item (besides detrimental items like Specs). For practical purposes, "No Soul Dew" and "No Soul Dew on Lati@s" are exactly identical. The only reason to choose one clause over the other is matters of "principle": whether you think that restricting every Pokemon because of two Pokemon is bad, or you feel that applying clauses to only a few certain Pokemon is bad.

The Trick argument sort of justifies a blanket ban, but we need to determine whether that is a broken strategy in itself, because holding Soul Dew from the start is different from having an intricate plan that involves a Soul Dew with Trick and Latias that may or may not work.

 

[Robo-Onion]

I won 5 battles in a row and my rating went down.

?

Anyway, my Latios set is Mixed with Expert Belt. It has been quite the beast, catching otherLatios for the quick Dragon Pulse, through Max Speed, then OHKO the switch in Heatran with EQ. I think Latios is powerful but not unbalancing.

 

[Relictivity]

Just thinking, if someone went through all that effort, just to get a Soul Dew, wouldn't they deserve it? (Note, I'm not saying we should allow it, it just seems sad that if someone tricked a Sould Dew, the opponent would let Latias/Latios trick it on.)

 

[Jun.]

Thus far I actually see Latios fairly manageable. I know the arguments that the fact that we allow it in the secluded area where we all prepare to fight it, but many suspect users actually use the same team they have and swap something for Latios or even just see how their team will fair in a Latios zone. I do hope that the test goes well and that the Suspect Ladder gets swamped soon :x

 

[deadguydrew]

I just wanted to go ahead and post a quickly analysis of what I've run into so far. All of these stats were generated from 2/9 to 2/10 so it's relatively recent, and they're as accurate as I could make them.

The general builds tend to split into two general themes. The more common uses Latios as a special attacker (a close second is having Latios as a physical or mixed attacker) and to either use it to tear into an opponents team to create holes to be exploited by other Pokemon, or to wait until other Pokemon have hurt the opponent enough that Latios can easily sweep. The other build is to use Latios to set up for another pokemon, and with the use of Memento and Trick to impair the opponent's ability to fight back as well.

Of the offensive builds, the most common that I've run into has been Timid@Life Orb with Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse, HP Fire, Surf, Thunderbolt/Ice Beam depending on the build. Variations on this exist using Choice items, as well as differing moves and natures depending on the trainer. Another variation is to use Calm Mind to boost the special attack and defense of Latios and to sweep by being hard to kill and exceptionally powerful. Both versions that I've run into with this set run Life Orb as well, Leftovers a valid choice as well. Out of 17 Latios' I've run into so far 12 of them fall into one of these general builds with the Timid@Life Orb version as a straight sweeper being the most common. There are also versions that run Trick to force a Choice item on a pokemon that might not necessarily want one as well.

The physical build functions similarly to the Calm Mind set in that it relies on a boosting move (Dragon Dance) to rocket it's already formidable stats up (this time attack and speed instead of S. Attack and S.Def) and then to sweep a team, or at the very least lay down a beating. Also Dragon Dance's speed boost and Latios' naturaly high S. Attack stat means that it makes an excellent mixed sweeper, using Draco Meteor to punish physical walls, and Outrage, and Earthquake to punish special walls. Out of 17 Latios (at the time of posting) 4 of them have used this set.

The final build I've run into is a support set using Latios to set up both Light Screen and Reflect, and then disable the opponent using Memento, forcing a switch or crippling the opponent.

So stats...

12 Latios (70% roughly) are geared as special attackers relying on Latios' speed and special attack with Life Orb or Choice items, and the odd boosting moves to setup and sweep.
4 Latios (24% roughly) are also attackers, but they use Dragon Dance to boost their attack up higher, using their already impressive special attack to help break down enemy walls.
1 Latios (6% roughly) use Latios as a support pokemon to setup for other pokemon, and debilitate the enemy.

The Most Common moves and items(in no particular order)

Latios Support Moves --
Calm Mind, Dragon Dance, Reflect, Light Screen, Recover, Memento, Trick, Roost

Latios Attack Moves --
Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Outrage, HP Fire, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Surf, Earthquake,

Latios Items --
Life Orb, Choice Specs/Scarf, Leftovers

Latios Natures --
Timid (this is so far the number one nature), Modest, Adamant, Jolly, Hasty

I hope this helps you guys get a general idea where things are heading. Also thanks to everyone who volunteered their information when I asked, it really helps :D

 

[lilyhollow]

For practical purposes, "No Soul Dew" and "No Soul Dew on Lati@s" are exactly identical.

My exact point is that this is entirely correct as far as battling goes (ignoring Trick), yet completely wrong when it comes to our rule-making process, which is why I obviously take issue with the idea that a Soul Dew ban is "restricting every Pokemon." Apparently you have some reason to believe that it's a "restriction," yet at the same time completely irrelevant for all practical (in-battle) purposes?

Secondly, even if this were a "restriction" (and let's face it, it really, really isn't; even if I badly want a 30 BP Fling or a sub-optimal Trick item, there are literally dozens of other options that are completely identical in every way. Go pick Amulet Coin, it doubles your money), then sure, it'd be a matter of "do we want to restrict every Pokemon, or do we want to apply clauses to certain Pokemon?" OK, but this question is honestly already answered for us: even if a blanket item ban actually does restrict the game's options in some meaningful way, so does a blanket Pokemon ban. And yet we've never claused "Earthquake/Swords Dance Groudon," or "Reflect/Light Screen Deoxys-S," or "Yache Berry Garchomp;" we've just banned all of those Pokemon outright, "restrictions" be damned. Every time, without fail, we've "found something to place the blame on" and just banned it, because if we didn't we'd have to consider all of the other "options" available to us sitting in the Ubers tier, and then probably a couple in OU.

The question isn't about whether we should clause individual Pokemon; I think that everyone should realize by now that that's just not feasible, but more importantly, we've had many opportunities in the past to say "hey, why don't we clause X item on Y?" but have failed to actually act on that possibility every single time. The fact that we happen to be talking specifically about Soul Dew right now has confused the issue, but make no mistake that, if Soul Dew actually mattered outside Lati@s (and you're nitpicking to an illogical extent if you say otherwise if you ask me), the question I'd be asking would be "do we ban Soul Dew or do we ban Lati@s?"

The Trick argument sort of justifies a blanket ban, but we need to determine whether that is a broken strategy in itself, because holding Soul Dew from the start is different from having an intricate plan that involves a Soul Dew with Trick and Latias that may or may not work.

Again, we're either deciding whether Soul Dew is broken or Lati@s are broken. Anything in between would cause a mess, not to mention raise a lot of questions as to why we made a lot of the decisions we've made in the past.

By the way, by your argument, a blanket ban would not be justified by Trick either way; we'd have to allow Soul Dew on the following Pokemon: Grimer, Muk, Gulpin, Swalot, Shellos, and Gastrodon (but only if their ability is Sticky Hold).



As for something that actually pertains to my testing experiences, I've played a few more matches and I've really just not had any problems with Latios, or the metagame in general (though I don't play a lot of matches per day so maybe that has something to do with it). I'm definitely siding with the TAY that this metagame has been pretty enjoyable so far.

 

[Nachos]

OK, more thoughts about Latios!

I've been running Modest Specs, and bar being outsped by Naive MixMence, I don't see any reason to run Timid. That extra power has allowed me to get some cruical damage at times turning things from a 3HKO to a 2HKO and even possibly a 1HKO.

While I do agree that the Suspect ladder is VERY centralized around Latios, I feel this is the same matter on Standard too. About Latios himself, he really hasn't been all that troublesome. Having lower Defence then Latias means he takes more damage from Scizor's Buullet Punch, and that's makes him easy to revenge kill.

I'd say that the only problem with Latios (and Latias to some extent) is that they centralize the game around Steels and Dragons, with the occasional Gyarados, the now more popular Heracross and the lead Azelfs.

Oh and Magnezone is in 75% of teams I see.

Edit: I've also found that Latios is fairly easy to switch in due to his nice resistances (Thunderbolt, Surf etc) and retaliate with a specs Draco Meteor.

 

[Chill]

Well I decided it's time to get off my butt and contribute. If anything I'll be another body playing on suspect. I'll try not to suck it up too much and ruin your deviations. :P

I've played a few matches so far. Battles seem to go very fast even without Latios. With the exception of a horrible stall fest...

 

[Darkflagrance]

Perhaps the reason why Latios seems to overcentralize is that the most effective strategies for using him involve a team of redundant dragons.

Sadly, even though I log in occasionally, I haven't the time, what with midterms etc. to qualify.

 

[diamondfan1910]

Mixdra is, IMO, the most potentially dangerous sweeper. With a slightly re-thought EV spread favouring Special Attack and a little more speed for the new Scarfers, he can OHKO almost everything significant with Draco Meteor/Hydro Pump and can run Stall down single-handedly. I'm not kidding, he's a beast. Without the huge Attack investment the rain boost still lends Waterfall a nice 2HKO on Blissey, and I still invest a lot of EVs into Attack. More Special Attack is important for slamming Celebi and Vaporeon hard with Draco Meteor for a 2HKO usually, so Kingdra can come back in later to wreak havoc without his counters. Surf could be used but it has less power than even the original spread's Hydro Pump.

Today I've seen more Magnezones than I have seen in the past week combined. He's catching on again.

 

[Bad Ass]

Only one Latios has earned a team spot, even considered. Calm Mind gets walled by Blissey, and the mono-refresher gets easily beaten by steels. Specs hits hard, true, but with the abundance of steels it's eh. Scarf packs no power (lol calling 394 SpA no power). The one thing that has even considered my mind has been DDMix.

Not an inferior Salamence, due to not being SR weak. He, unlike Salamence, baits Blissey in, only to be OHKOd by Outrage. Really the only one I use.

Postscript: HP Fire deals with Scizor

 

[Polis4rule]

I actually like the DDMix set. I always seem to get 1 or 2 kills due to my opponent switching something that doesn't really counter it into Latios.

 

[BalancedPower]

Instead of HP fire, I would suggest surf on there since it can 2HKO all of the pokemon that you've mentioned, as well as 2HKOing Heatran if it decides to switch in.

If you're that worried about scizor, HP fire would be fine.

I guess it isn't a big deal, but really the only pokemon I am really worried with this set is Scizor/Gross/Magnezone
And HP Fire ruins them ^_^
Surf is strong, but I just prefer the utility of HP Fire. I believe Pulse/Meteor/Bolt provide enough normal 2HKO or a OHKO for the build.
So I went back through this thread, and I created a new Latios, and it has been working even better.
Mixed Latios (Life Orb) Timid

Outrage
Surf/HP Fire/Dragon Pulse/Thunderbolt
Roost
Earthquake

Outrage is a main STAB, just wrecks havec with Life Orb and near 252 Attack EV. The second slot is really up to your team, I have been mixing them all around, Dragon Pulse provides another STAB which is just lovely, so does Draco Meteor, Thunderbolt/HP Fire cover weakness a little better, and Surf just works well hitting most things for Super Effective or Neutral. Roost is really their to heal up a bit and prolong a sweep, especially, if you can get Toxic's off earlier before Latias sweep. Earthquake, just takes out many strong threat against Latias, Magnezone without Magnet Rise (Which has happened) or just if you are faster then him, and a whole bunch of others. Dragons really aren't a problem as long you have Outrage, keeping a Donphan/Weavile or just some sort of Ice isn't a bad idea for an extra Dragon counter.

So with this Latios, I like to include Umbreon or Vaporean, Wish pass once again can keep this going, and make sure Life Orb doesn't impale you. Plus Mean Look, on a a good switch in for Latos is good etc. For Vaporeon, Ice Beam takes out enemy Dragons, and Surf wrecks havec normally.
My other two cents on this issue.

 

[Chill]

Physical Latios is killing me.

I guess everyone decided it would be a good option to snag a free dance or sub on the Blissey switch in. Physical Latios reminds me of Yachechomp in spirit (I say that before someone mauls me). You need a someone to break the sub and then another to outspeed and kill him.

I'm thinking I'm going to need to invest in a Mamoswine.