Agreeing with diamondfan here.
I believe that this test started at the start of the month, so it will end in two weeks.
I believe that this test started at the start of the month, so it will end in two weeks.
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np: Latios - "unban me"
- Thread starter Jumpman16
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I think the test is 2 months long, actually.
Oh, shorter than the Latias test then.
In addition to the "good player bias" I think exists on the Suspect ladder that makes 1650 a harder ranking to get than on standard, I think Latios is making it harder for me to win matches. DS Speed ties, having to fight
Since it's highly encouraged that testers use Latios, what knowledge of the metagame will we develop through this test that would apply in OU? The metagame is artifically centered around Latios like the last test was around Latias, so I'm curious as to exactly what conclusions we are able to draw from this metagame. Is Stage 2 mainly to "show what a Pokémon is capable of" not relative to a metagame?
Since it's highly encouraged that testers use Latios, what knowledge of the metagame will we develop through this test that would apply in OU? The metagame is artifically centered around Latios like the last test was around Latias, so I'm curious as to exactly what conclusions we are able to draw from this metagame. Is Stage 2 mainly to "show what a Pokémon is capable of" not relative to a metagame?
I know I'm a little late in the game but I just joined Smogon after a good many months of Smogon Shoddy server. When I heard Latias was on suspect I was giddy. But now that Latios is on Suspect I feel that if it were made OU, things could go wrong.
I started testing Latios as soon as I could. I watched PLENTY of suspect battles because, being that I'm not the best against Latios, I lost a lot. Anywho, I'm finding that unlike Latias, Latios sweeps the hell out of teams who don't suspect a mixed/physical Latios. Personally, the mixed set poses the biggest threat because Life Orb gives Latios a monstrous SpAtk and a respectable Atk. And again, unlike Latias, mixed Latios can take down a Blissey and Skarmory.
But on the bright side, there are a great many pokemon that, with a good enough prediction, can take down Latios easily. The pokemon I find that rapes the hell out of teams centralized around Latios is Scizor. Massive Pursuit damage is done to the unsuspecting Latios.
I think some people have said this before but I havent read through all of this, Latios is just as big a threat as Salamence. Whether its Specs, Dance, or Mix, both of these pokemon are unpredictable sweepers. I think the only reason Latios is even being mentioned for OU is because its sister Latias has been. There just isn't any point! I've seen enough teams get sweeped by a Specs Latios because they were expecting to see Mixed/Dance. Sure there are a lot of counters, but Latios is just too unpredictable for me to think that it can be OU.
I'll post more after some more testing, but I feel as if I just repeated everything that's been said.
I started testing Latios as soon as I could. I watched PLENTY of suspect battles because, being that I'm not the best against Latios, I lost a lot. Anywho, I'm finding that unlike Latias, Latios sweeps the hell out of teams who don't suspect a mixed/physical Latios. Personally, the mixed set poses the biggest threat because Life Orb gives Latios a monstrous SpAtk and a respectable Atk. And again, unlike Latias, mixed Latios can take down a Blissey and Skarmory.
But on the bright side, there are a great many pokemon that, with a good enough prediction, can take down Latios easily. The pokemon I find that rapes the hell out of teams centralized around Latios is Scizor. Massive Pursuit damage is done to the unsuspecting Latios.
I think some people have said this before but I havent read through all of this, Latios is just as big a threat as Salamence. Whether its Specs, Dance, or Mix, both of these pokemon are unpredictable sweepers. I think the only reason Latios is even being mentioned for OU is because its sister Latias has been. There just isn't any point! I've seen enough teams get sweeped by a Specs Latios because they were expecting to see Mixed/Dance. Sure there are a lot of counters, but Latios is just too unpredictable for me to think that it can be OU.
I'll post more after some more testing, but I feel as if I just repeated everything that's been said.
That's what I mean. "Until I see Latios and know I need them," or "until I know they're not packing a Latios." Even stall teams can carry a Latios to power through whatever's left over at the end of the game.
But if I'm playing a relatively offensive-based team and Scizor/Tyranitar would be the perfect way to beatr what's out at the moment, but there's a significant risk of it taking 50% damage in the process, then the Scizor/Tyranitar user really has to think twice if they want to "waste" one of their Latios counters in this fashion.
You really can't disregard what happens on suspect ladder because "it won't be the same way on standard." If the whole point of this process is to vote based on experience, and the only experience you have is a situation in which everyone uses the suspect, or an overspecialized team to beat the suspect, then that's really the only thing you can take into account when voting.
But if you know they're packing a Latios, can't you prepare your team better against it? For example, if I was going into an OU battle knowing I'd be up against a MixMence, I'd be preparing my team for it.
Which is exactly why the Suspect metagame isn't a completely true test of the Pokemon's power, which is what Stage 3 is for. I never said I'm disregarding it, I'm just saying it's not the be-all and end-all of a test. What we should take into account is how much Latios could affect the metagame. Now that Latias is OU if she turns out to be overpowered then there could be a vote; that'd be a more reliable test. Don't get me wrong, I like the Suspect ladder a lot, but the metagame won't be the same.
I don't know what your team is, but if you're packing a standard Suspect team you really shouldn't be swept by Latios. Tyranitar isn't so good any more, he takes too much from Surf. Throw Special Defence on Scizor and Surf can't 2HKO. Use Mamoswine for revenge kills. Scarf your Rotom appliance. There are lots of ways to check him, but I will agree with you that (other than specially defensive Scizor, which is screwed over by HP Fire) there aren't many true Latios counters. But there are no true Salamence counters either, yet he manages fine in OU. There are just so many common checks to Latios on Suspect that I've found it really impossible to sweep with him.
Which is exactly why the Suspect metagame isn't a completely true test of the Pokemon's power, which is what Stage 3 is for. I never said I'm disregarding it, I'm just saying it's not the be-all and end-all of a test. What we should take into account is how much Latios could affect the metagame. Now that Latias is OU if she turns out to be overpowered then there could be a vote; that'd be a more reliable test. Don't get me wrong, I like the Suspect ladder a lot, but the metagame won't be the same.
I don't know what your team is, but if you're packing a standard Suspect team you really shouldn't be swept by Latios. Tyranitar isn't so good any more, he takes too much from Surf. Throw Special Defence on Scizor and Surf can't 2HKO. Use Mamoswine for revenge kills. Scarf your Rotom appliance. There are lots of ways to check him, but I will agree with you that (other than specially defensive Scizor, which is screwed over by HP Fire) there aren't many true Latios counters. But there are no true Salamence counters either, yet he manages fine in OU. There are just so many common checks to Latios on Suspect that I've found it really impossible to sweep with him.
how many times does it have to be pointed out that this is a natural phenomena of competitive pokemon
nobody knew how uber garchomp and deoxys-s were for months and it is therefore silly for anyone to think that latias can not similarly change down the road regardless of other suspects added to standard
We just can't be sure whether or not it is going to change and what. I realize that things like Scarfcross and Scizor will be coming out to play more often if Latios was in OU. Also, since we can't predict anything, this shouldn't be a factor. It's like saying "I'm not taking this quiz because I think I'm going to do badly." If anything, change in the metagame would be good since the metagame now is full of stall pokemon. And who's to say that everyone would use Latios anyways? I don't see everyone using Latias.
Using this "reasoning" will have your vote rejected. That is not what voting criteria should be based on. As Jump said, you can't predict it, so don't try (check the Latias vote thread). There are characteristics that you should be watching for, so if you aren't/haven't, start.
Key word being months. Nobody is going to know how "uber" the suspect is after a month by your standards, so it seems like instead of rebutting the argument you've shot yourself in the foot a little bit. One month in an artificially centralized metagame is effective at showing what the Pokemon itself is capable of, but not really its long-term effects on the metagame.
Note that I'm not saying the test is necessarily bad, just that by your own admission one month isn't going to show the Pokemon's full strength in standard OU. Come to think of it, I actually think this might be a good thing. If a Pokemon can succeed in a metagame that is centered around countering that Pokemon, what effect will that have on the standard metagame?
"Predicting it" isn't the point, as Uber or OU isn't an intristic property of the Pokémon at hand in my opinion. We're not "guessing" how it will affect the metagame (though if we wanted to base our vote on that now the way the test is set up we'd have no choice but to), but we'd be voting on "right now is the effect negative to the point that the Pokemon is uber". We could always revote if it had a _new_ effect on the metagame.
After all, a Pokémon can't sweep in common battle conditions without having other Pokémon around for it to kill. Same for the other two characteristics. So I don't see how we should be voting independent of the metagame if that defines how a Pokémon exists.
So you're saying we should watch to see if it sweeps, walls, or supports "too much" when all three of those things depend on the Pokémon around it (aka "the metagame") instead of voting based on the metagame?
Anyhow this test does demonstrate how well a Pokémn does in a "worst case scenario" metagame; if it dominates in a metagame horribly centralized around it (like Latios is doing) then hey that's a reason to go Uber.
The post I responded to was "how it could affect the [standard] metagame." If the aim was to compare it to standard, the Shaymin-S structure would still be in place and testing wouldn't be isolated. You're supposed to make your judgement based off of what you know (which you gain from the suspect metagame), not what you predict. My response was to a comment saying we should vote based on speculation of what will happen to standard, which isn't what should be done. Nothing about assessing relative to the [suspect] metagame was mentioned (or meant to be implied).
I have not yet made up my mind on what tier Latios should fall into. I don't know if I will even make the requirment but I feel that the reasoning some of you are using is pretty bogus.
First of all, like nearly every other OU pokemon with a deep movepool one pokemon cannot be a counter. You can't cry "Blissey doesn't counter Latios because it might be mixed". Blissey doesn't counter anything that might be mixed very well, or at all. Try staying in on Mixdras's waterfalls? Mixmences DD Dragan claws, Outrages or brick breaks?
Syberia, you said that Latios requires you to have multiple checks on your team to stop it. This applies to a number of other pokemon. Is hippowdon your check to Tyranitar? What if he has ice beam? It's probably a better idea to use your Infernape or Scizor against him isn't it? What if he has dragon dance? You might have to use a scarf pokemon to take him out now. But your hippowdon doesn't run scarf does it?
The point I'm trying to make is that you cannot religate a single pokemon on your team to handle threat X. Because Threat X is going to come in all different flavors and varieties. If what you're saying is that one pokemon on your team cannot reliably counter Latios, this is fairly normal. And so "this one pokemon keeps Latios from sweeping my team" is not a realistic argument. If you feel you have to play 5-6 until you see Latios, I think that says more about your playstyle than it does about Latios.
Diamondfan already said it but there are so many ways to handle Latios. Scarfs, EVS, priority moves, sandstorm, stealth rock,etc.
First of all, like nearly every other OU pokemon with a deep movepool one pokemon cannot be a counter. You can't cry "Blissey doesn't counter Latios because it might be mixed". Blissey doesn't counter anything that might be mixed very well, or at all. Try staying in on Mixdras's waterfalls? Mixmences DD Dragan claws, Outrages or brick breaks?
Syberia, you said that Latios requires you to have multiple checks on your team to stop it. This applies to a number of other pokemon. Is hippowdon your check to Tyranitar? What if he has ice beam? It's probably a better idea to use your Infernape or Scizor against him isn't it? What if he has dragon dance? You might have to use a scarf pokemon to take him out now. But your hippowdon doesn't run scarf does it?
The point I'm trying to make is that you cannot religate a single pokemon on your team to handle threat X. Because Threat X is going to come in all different flavors and varieties. If what you're saying is that one pokemon on your team cannot reliably counter Latios, this is fairly normal. And so "this one pokemon keeps Latios from sweeping my team" is not a realistic argument. If you feel you have to play 5-6 until you see Latios, I think that says more about your playstyle than it does about Latios.
Diamondfan already said it but there are so many ways to handle Latios. Scarfs, EVS, priority moves, sandstorm, stealth rock,etc.
Upon further study I have to say that Latios really isn't a problem. I've only lost because of him... well, quite honestly I haven't. It's always hard to sweep with Choiced things anyway and his attacks hit hard, but what I think keeps him at a standard level is that all his checks are common anyway. Even if the Suspect metagame is different you can't deny that Scizor is number one on Standard, Heatran is very popular etc. Although Heatran can also be countered by Latios if Latios switches in on the right move.
I have a feeling Latias will be able to boast the title "Only Suspect ever voted OU" for a while, though.
I have a feeling Latias will be able to boast the title "Only Suspect ever voted OU" for a while, though.
do you honestly think that i would have willingly posted something and "shot myself in the foot" just to make a point, let alone the possibility that i thought about this a long, long time ago?
Jump said:
read that quote in full, and then read it again if you don't get it, because it is obvious that you have either never read this or understood it if so. this is the OP of my thread, and i said that over four months ago and have felt this way since i initiated the suspect test process and took issue with chaos's suggestion of two months.
so, since i know a month isn't long enough, it's pretty simple—you either think that a time period shorter than a month is better, or you don't like the current process in itself. since it would be silly to test for shorter than a month, even if it would be in the interests of completing the suspect test process faster, because of your own issue with "overcentralization", that can't logically be it.
so since that can't be it, it must be that you have an issue with the process itself, then. which is fine...if you have an actual workable solution, because otherwise you would be guilty of one of my biggest pet peeves which is shitting on a process without suggesting a better solution. you have tried to suggest that we should have the tests on the standard ladder, and i have gone out of my my way to show you why this is a bad idea. you never responded to this post. i suggest you not take public issue with the suspect test process until you do.
and, as if to admit that the process isn't inherently a problem, you go on to say:
if you understand my post so far and the one before it, you understand that your question is actually rhetorical. if not, then i can't help you until you start actually reading and understanding my posts about this.
Ack! I win several battles and up my rating by about 10, then lose one and it falls by 8. I need to choose better times to play.
Jump, I think you misunderstood me. About halfway through that post, I realized that none of the things about this process are a problem if we are assuming that the process is meant to do exactly what I said in the last post.
What you did is that you took the first part of the post as some kind of dig against the process, when the latter half of the post is all about why the process *isn't* bad, and actually makes sense in the context that I now see it in. Of course, this raises a question. Since this is obviously the desired result of the process, why has nobody ever simply come out and said it like that?
Also, I would think that digs against my intelligence are unnecessary in a debate such as this. I should have worded the first paragraph differently (I intended to change the tone of my post and forgot the line about you shooting yourself in the foot e_e), but it still seems a little telling that your first instinct is to brush me off and say that I have no idea what I'm talking about at all, which you did in your last paragraph.
What you did is that you took the first part of the post as some kind of dig against the process, when the latter half of the post is all about why the process *isn't* bad, and actually makes sense in the context that I now see it in. Of course, this raises a question. Since this is obviously the desired result of the process, why has nobody ever simply come out and said it like that?
Also, I would think that digs against my intelligence are unnecessary in a debate such as this. I should have worded the first paragraph differently (I intended to change the tone of my post and forgot the line about you shooting yourself in the foot e_e), but it still seems a little telling that your first instinct is to brush me off and say that I have no idea what I'm talking about at all, which you did in your last paragraph.
I tried that a while ago. It does work but only on a 1 vs 1 kind of thing. Once my opponent knew I ran Choice Band Weavile (Night Slash is a OHKO, Pursuit is the same but I haven't run any calcs) then he became more wary and was able to take it down with other pokemon. However, Weavile can take down Latios just as easily as Scizor or Salamance can. I'm just saying you better predict your timing well.
I got back into the Suspect and failed...miserably. So I'm now back to observing and taking notes until my Shoddy starts working again, I have also encouraged people to use Latios in the Tourney at our other site and plenty of things have changed To start, after a couple battles my friends started to realize something; Dragon/Psychic is weak to Ice, Dark, Bug, Dragon, and Ghost. That's a good collection of weaknesses. I think that maybe Latios is becoming less of a problem in my eyes now that I see people running more Choice Scarf Heracross, Life Orb Salamence (although that has been run for while, now people are ready for Latios), and I saw a few Weaviles here and there. The point I'm trying to make is that Latios is not as big a threat as people think it might be now that Walls/Revenge Killers have risen to out-predicting Latios.
More later =]
the only reason it may seem like my first instinct is to brush you off is because, as i pointed out in my last post, you literally have done the same by not replying to my direct address of your concerns in the past and by seeming to be ignorant of where i publicly posted that one month is not conducive for credible results.
i'm not taking digs at your intelligence, regardless of your admission that stating i shot myself in the foot wasn't a good idea. you have literally given me no reason to believe that you have even read the post in question, let alone understood it, because I directly replied to you and you did not respond. when you raise or seem to raise similar concerns in a separate thread later, what else am i going to logically assume besides you not reading or understanding what i've said?
and i actually gave you the benefit of the doubt of having a point to your post, given that aeolus and i have been saying for months that these threads are really supposed to be about actual experiences with the suspects. if you knew beforehand that suspect tests don't give up conclusive evidence in a month, why is it worth mentioning if you're not actually taking issue with it? you can take that as a dig as well, or you can think of why i would ask that—if you realize that a month isnt long enough, but you know i realize a month isn't long enough, then how is a question regarding a suspect's inclusion in OU and "what effect will that have on the standard metagame" anything but rhetorical?
The point is that I was trying to clarify for other people that read the thread since you have the tendency to not come out and say "this is why we're doing what we're doing." The suspect test is actually quite effective if we assume the following theory:
"If the Pokemon is not broken in a metagame built for it, then it may not be broken in OU. We then take the Pokemon for a spin in OU and let people get used to it. By the time Stage 3 rolls around, we'll know exactly what each of the OU mons are capable of, and if they actually are broken, they'll get voted on again. If the Pokemon is broken in its own metagame (Stage 1), then it's probably broken in OU, but we shall see once Stage 3 rolls around."
See, that wasn't so hard. Yet somehow nobody's actually said that despite the fact that it's not really that complex.
I have other things to talk about, but I'll PM you on IRC instead of cluttering the thread here.
"If the Pokemon is not broken in a metagame built for it, then it may not be broken in OU. We then take the Pokemon for a spin in OU and let people get used to it. By the time Stage 3 rolls around, we'll know exactly what each of the OU mons are capable of, and if they actually are broken, they'll get voted on again. If the Pokemon is broken in its own metagame (Stage 1), then it's probably broken in OU, but we shall see once Stage 3 rolls around."
See, that wasn't so hard. Yet somehow nobody's actually said that despite the fact that it's not really that complex.
I have other things to talk about, but I'll PM you on IRC instead of cluttering the thread here.
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