np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - Run The Jewels

[Futility]

Mega Sableye provides a lot of functions to stall at once: it is a bulky Magic Bouncer that discourages hazards use (and even lays them on the opposing side if it switches on a hazard move), it can handle repeated hits and Recover the damage away, and is general an amazing pivot. I think Gothitelle accentuates all the worst aspects of Mega Sableye while overshadowing the value that every stall team would lose without having it around. We can say what we want about the value of prediction, but the hazard layer doesn't need to necessarily defeat Mega Sableye in order to put pressure. Hazard setting must be seen in the long run, and reading the opponent's use of Mega Sableye and when to incorporate smart pivots, double switching, and chip damage all play into the strategy of fighting defensive play. Mega Sableye alone is not enough to threaten the end of the hazard setter or the game itself. Bring Gothitelle into the mix, however, and the cat-and-mouse game becomes instantly skewed. Make one mistake with Gothitelle on the field, and your hazard setter is removed from the game, permanently, and outside of Shed Shell, which greatly weakens the hazard setter's longevity (hope you never switch into Knock Off ever), there are absolutely no options to escape it.

Gothitelle, by virtue of its Choice Scarf set, invalidates so many Pokemon sets. Defensive sets, like pivot Landorus-T and Heatran, get stalled out by repeated use of Rest. Set-up sweepers, like Manaphy, get reduced to using weak attacks that get absorbed by Gothitelle's teammates and turn it into set-up fodder. Yes, Mega Sableye makes this worse by discouraging the use of Taunt or other ways to break down Gothitelle, but even then, the fact that the hazard laying team can't double switch sucks out the momentum and essentially gives the Gothitelle team a free switch.

The two main Sableye stall teams I remember are the ABR stall team that uses Choice Scarf Gothitelle and the Wonder Trio team that uses Shedinja and Dugtrio. The first team brings out the worst in Gothitelle, as it chooses which threat appears to be the most dangerous and leaves the others to the rest of the team to handle the other needs (Skarmory for Defogging and Spikes, Quagsire to stop set-up physical attackers, Chansey for special attackers, and Amoongus for general tankiness/Spore/passive healing). Wonder Trio is unique in that Shedinja stops most direct attacks that would normally be aimed at Mega Sableye, while also providing slow Baton Passes to Dugtrio who then removes whichever threat the team needs to take. I do not know of a team that incorporates both Mega Sableye and Wobbufett, but between Countercoat, Encore, and Custap Destiny Bond, Wobbufett could skew the game in its own unique way.

Mega Sableye is unique in that it has a show-stopping ability and the bulk to remain in the game through multiple hits. Ban it and offensive play-styles have a field day picking apart the Pokemon that either have great abilities but terrible bulk (Mega Diancie can't fulfill half the roles Mega Sableye does) or have the bulk but are hopelessly passive. If Mega Sableye goes and Shadow Taggers stay in, they will simply find new roles removing the few checks to the hardest-hitting offensive Pokemon. Between Gothitelle and Wobbufett, any Pokemon with any moveset can find itself prey to instantly being defeated, which is especially devastating when you consider the fact that many defensive Pokemon have to fill multiple roles; there are simply too many offensive threats out there. For a defensive team, every Pokemon and every moveslot is meticulously chosen to cover as wide a range as possible. For Shadow Tag to instantly nullify a Pokemon is too much for these teams to bear.

Do not ban Sablenite. Ban Shadow Tag.

 

[p2]

STOP STEALING MY FUCKING PIC AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

anyway, i don't have much to say on this topic considering i let out all my thoughts during the thread i made in pr so im just gonna repost it here


Mega Sableye is a huge problem in the OU metagame right now and for a bunch of different reasons. It heavily centralises the hazard game, shutting out so many hazard setters and forcing balance teams to run SR Clefable if they even want to get rocks up against it. The support it provides to teams is incredible too and when you couple that with its ability to shut out almost all hazards and support from teammates, it's insanely restricting in terms of handling it and has such a large strain on teambuilding.

Essentially, Sableye makes stallbreaking a much more matchup-based process than it ever was. What happened before was a player could pressure a stall team down by setting up hazards and double switches. If you predicted a switch in to something, you could double out into the appropriate threat, and get 12.5% on whatever just came in, which could be crucial for bringing it in range of being 2hko'd on the switch in. Now, predicting a switch becomes useless if there is no reward for doing so, which is what a hazardless game vs a stall team does. Without the opportunity for hazards, you are simply left with the 6 pokemon in your party, and what is worse, they all work as individuals, rather than as a team. What I mean by this is that one pokemon which can effectively remove checks and counters for another does not work well if the opposing player can just keep switching out into their counter for each with no repercussions.

ABR's Mega Sableye team, which everyone reading this should be all too familiar with now, is being spammed both on the ladder and now even in tours. Players are using it exactly for the reason that it requires little effort to use, is heavily matchup based, and will win a very good portion of matchups due to how effective it is. So, how is the stall team losing a match at all? It is done by specific breakers, rather than smart play or team synergy, because those don't mean much without the capability to wear down opposing pokemon so that another can do work. Once you have those specific breakers, you can then use those effectively in order to win. However, a bad matchup vs this sort of Mega Sableye stall team is almost the same as an autoloss, disregarding the chance for hax to happen. This makes Mega Sabeleye very uncompetitive, under this definition:

II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant

This is the crux of the issue with Mega Sableye, by controlling the hazard game in the way that cores involving it do, it isolates your pokemon, then enables the rest of the stall team to completely negate the effectiveness of most of them. This lets stall players make obvious plays without the opportunity to be punished, because there is no penalty for having to switch back into the appropriate counter if the opposing player doubles on you.

What you have here is a pokemon that forces whatever specific breakers are effective against the stall team in question to be used in order to not autolose, and takes away the penalty of predictability in damage on switch in. It is also worth noting that due to the large variety of pokemon that Gothitelle can cripple, the pool of pokemon that can be used to beat a Sabeleye stall team becomes smaller still. However, merely banning Gothitelle does not prevent the conceptual problem, whereby you either pack the correct breaker for the correct stall team, or autolose, and no amount of smart play will be able to prevent this. It is for these reasons that we strongly believe that Sableye is uncompetitive in the current metagame and deserves a suspect, then subsequently a ban.

 

[EraiMHFU]

The same guy who said "Scarf Weavile shits on M-Zam" returns :/

Anyway, finally they are suspecting these demons.

Gothithelle (or shadow tag) really deserve the ban, the simple fact of trapping anything not named Gengar is ridiculous, and it forces a player to run shit like RD Mana + M-Ttar just to avoid getting a scarf tricked on your pursuit trapper, plus, it provides an absurd amount of utility for non-stall teams, to put this simple: Is your main sweeper a special attacker? You need chansey out of the way then, so, what to do? trick a scarf on chansey and see how it struggles.

Sab is not broken by itself, its passiveness usually means that it ends as a setup bait for Mana, Seperior or even Azumarrill because it will run scared from Play Rough, the problem is Goth, who completely messes with them by blocking them in their setup moves, hazards are still a problem tho, since the only hazard setters that beat Sableye reliably are Heatran and Clefable, and, again goth is who takes care of them by locking them in Stealth Rock.

Wanted to put this simplest as possible.

So: Ban Shadow Tag. Keep Sablenite.

 

[Dread Arceus]

question: can we have a "if not A then B" vote? ie, "I vote ban on Shadow Tag and no ban on Sablenite, but if Shadow Tag is not banned then I vote ban on Sablenite" or vice versa

 

[bubblymaika]

I'd hope we can agree that having both Stag and Mega Sable on the same team is an absolute nightmare as they both support one another almost perfectly. I doubt this will be an option, since complex bans are looked down upon, but in the event that neither are banned, would it be possible to ban sablenite and shadow tag on the same team?

That ramble said, Shadow tag is absolutely ridiculous and in my opinion completely unhealthy for the meta. Wobbuffet itself can almost always guarantee a kill with dbond or counter/coat (especially if it has a custap). And Gothitelle's main set is called "Literally Satan" for a reason. Another interesting thing to note is that shed shell manaphy and togekiss become increasingly common the higher you go on the ladder. I don't know about anyone else, but I'd much rather be running some lefties on those two. As for mega sableye, I honestly don't know how to feel about it yet. I don't think it's broken, but it most certainly puts a ton of pressure on offense and balance. Gonna have to play the ladder and tours more to see how it compares. Only thing I can say for certain is that megacham and gallade teams will certainly love to see sable gone.

 

[Britania]

I think M-sableye+shadow tag(gothille) together are broken...together.

Because gives good match up in the game pls,
M-sableye give hazzard control, can burn, boost with calm mind, knock off user
Gothitelle can trap checks from your team, can use scarf or specs
Energy ball to trap and kill hipo
Hp fire to ferro
Hp ground to kill heatran
come on a good coverage ...and what can not kill use trick.
I always need ready to deal a gothi stall or stall with mega sableye, sometimes
both of them and this its a big problem because with shadow tag kill the stallbreakers and wall breakers, that leaves more easy to mega sableye.

 

[Azalea Rain]

I don't claim to be a great OU battler or anything like that (I've only reached max 1400ish in OU) but I can honestly say that I generally don't have issues with Mega Sableye. I saw that it was getting suspected, and something rubbed me the wrong way, so I thought about why I never had issues with it.

First and foremost, I realized that as a 'noobish' player, I generally don't place much emphasis on hazards in the first place. lol

But putting that aside, I noticed a couple of people mentioning that Mega Sableye 100% shuts down a lot of hazard setters in OU. That's certainly true, but that in and of itself is certainly no reason to ban Mega Sableye. First of all, it is true that Mega Sableye stops hazards from a lot of Pokemon. Most hazard setters, even. (Ferrothorn Skarmory Tankchomp Chansey Ttar Hippowdon Gliscor just to name a few. or rather, a LOT) That can't be used as a good argument for bashing Mega Sableye because
1. There ARE rockers that can beat MSableye, including Clefable, MDiancie, Heatran. It might not be their most common sets, but such is the freedom of Pokemon.
Don't bash MSableye's Magic Bouncing ability just because it what, ACTUALLY DOES WHAT IT'S MEANT FOR?
2. Maybe I can only say this because I'm not some expert battler or whatever, but having a carpet check to a lot of hazard setters isn't broken at all.
IF YOU WANNA SPAM HAZARDS, YOU BETTER BE PREPARED FOR MSABLEYE. How you go about it is your own business.

However, that doesn't address Mega Sableye's great defensive capabilities. Given that it tends to burn lots of things, that leaves three options for taking it down (that come to mind instantly):
1. SUPER EFFECTIVE SPECIAL ATTACKS: Okay, I have to admit that there's not a whole lot of wiggle room in this area, since MSableye only has one weakness in Fairy, so that limits you to Mega Gardevoir, Sylveon, CM Clefable, and coverage such as from the likes of Dazzling Gleam Mega Alakazam (that doesn't wanna switch into an MSab attack by any means.)

2. FIRE TYPE ATTACKERS: I'm not going to go into all the different options, but physically-wise, Mega Charizard X can setup on and kill any MSabelye lacking Foul Play, while specially wise, Mega Charizard Y can just use it's self-explanatory nuke-everything-with-FireBlast to annihilate it. Even at maximum SPDef investment (which they generally don't run) they just aren't that beefy in that department. Those aren't the only options by any means btw, for example it's not used that much but Infernape can SD and doesn't even have to worry about Foul Play that much, etc.

3. Calm Mind, Nasty Plot, etc. to attack it with powerful special attacks. Substitute is also a pain for MSableye. (for example, Sub CM Keldeo)

Between these three approaches (please correct me if I'm missing something), if you STILL can't beat MSableye, that's your problem.

by the way, STag Goth is borked for obvious reasons

 

[ABR]

There's really a common misconception here that "if sableye can be checked easily with common, viable pokemon then it's clearly not broken." No. It doesn't matter if you can fit a Clefable or a Gardevoir or a Heatran on your team. Playing against Sableye teams as a whole, and not as 6 individual pokemon acting in a vacuum, is the unhealthy part. People should really be focusing on the types of builds Sableye forces, and how it could arguably be overpowering in its ability to control hazards. It can be said that Sableye is in fact "broken" because of its ability to prevent hazards so easily, and resist most viable forms of wallbreaking, such as taunt and hazards.

 

[Aberforth]

"The builds it forces" is one pokemon that can break down teams mostly on it's own like Manaphy, Gardevoir, ext. The reason so few of them exist is that gothitelle deals with them. Sableye isn't the problem there, its gothitelle.

 

[pj]

ok so finnaly the ou are getting suspected atleast :D
so bout shadow tag -its not competitive at all even without sabeleye its is bad as f for the meta it traps mon wch makes the meta worst even tho people wud say pursuit trapper can trap them and counter it but if a team is semistall it can potential get upto 2+kills its not only gud in defensive team its can also to a offense its rarely seen as offensive mon also there is Wobbuffet wch can surely get a 1 kill maybe even 2 even if pursuit trapper are on it will be 50-50 on wobbu as it can counter wit living the pursuit banned and in scarf it can even take crunch and KO ttar back also it can help a DD mon to set up as some people are running charm/tickle wch make attack lessalso it have destiny bond if a choice mon attack the it a kill for surely if it can take one also it can encore the defensive mons to stall their moves and last shadow tag higly uncompetitive ablity even tho people wud argue bout ''magnetpull'' and ''pursuit'' trappers people can shed shell/cobulr berry on specific mon wch wud not make team building as bad as shadow tag makes.so for all this reasons I am gonna vote BANNN on shadow tag

and
Sableye-Mega -this mon has been dominating the ladder and even tours for months naw currently meta . Its unique typing that leaves it with one weakness, great bulk, vast movepool, and ability, Magic Bounce gives it the ability to shut down many common SR setter used in ou. However, mega sableye isn't relegated to just stall; it fits very well on hazard stacking balance teams as it prevents opposing hazards and is capable of spreading status through burns and Toxic. Mega Sableye is capable of preventing Stealth Rock from every setter bar Clefable, and every Spikes user bar Klefki. Furthermore, Mega Sableye has accessed to great utility moves in Knock Off. And people are saying its passive mons and can hel pto set up tail glow/ sd it can toxic and foulplay the sding mon wch wud dolike a million to opp. Mega Sableye even has access to Metal Burst, wch hit 1.5 more , whether it be physical or special. MOST IMPORTANTLY No matter what moves Mega Sableye is running, its unprepared teams in most of the team and makes teambuilding difficult more worse and also countering it in hardstacking team makes it tuff+wit goth ability it can abuse the checks of sab so gonna vote ban hele too ofc if I get reqs

 

[Merritt]

We decided to not suspect Gothitelle because we think Shadow Tag is the main part of the problem. Gothorita has the same trapping abilities as its evolution, and thus could also become an issue should Gothitelle be banned. We also think Wobbuffet and Wynaut, despite being quite unseen and less effective than Gothitelle, are problematic, as they can punish the opponent by trapping a target and create a hole and punish the opponent with little to no counter play.

I hugely disagree with this sentiment, since it's essentially saying "these mons could be as broken as Gothitelle is" without any hard evidence. Sure, you might be able to make a case that Gothorita would be able to do exactly the same thing as Gothitelle but Wobuffett? Wynaut? These are uncompetitive at the same level as Gothitelle is? Sure, that's all well and good to say, but what you're doing is suspecting a mon based on theory. Unlike Gothitelle, who has proven to be cancerous at high levels of both ladder and tournament play, none of the other users of Shadow Tag have done anything noteworthy – hell you even state this in the OP, calling them "quite unseen and less effective than Gothitelle".

It'd be like during the Landorus suspect suspecting Nidoking and Nidoqueen as well, just because they'll likely be fulling the same role as Landorus if it was banned. It's a flawed method that honestly sets both a bad precedent and also makes it that much harder to actually argue that Shadow Tag Gothitelle should leave the tier through this suspect test, since now we have to argue that Gothita and Wynaut are uncompetitive to an extent that needs to be banned.

In short, this is very similar to the ban Protean, not Greninja argument that gets shut down every time it occurs.

Now, so that this post isn't a rant about the suspect itself, here's my two cents.

Mega Sableye provides a valuable form of counterplay to hazard stacking that forces the opponent to think about what they're doing. Unlike other Magic Bounce mons, Sableye is able to stick around for a long time and continuously cause the opponent to think before just clicking Stealth Rock. Sure, that can be annoying to people who enjoy mindless offense, but to stall it provides a valuable way to stick around. If you look at it from an offense perspective, banning Sableye would make stall significantly easier to deal with, but from the other perspective it allows stall to beat hazard stacking offense much more easily. Sure, most people play offensively, but that doesn't mean that things offense finds annoying should be banned. I'm kind of inclined to keep Mega Sableye around, but not with Gothitelle still here.

And for the reasons above, I can't in good faith say that Shadow Tag should be banned when only one user of the ability has been tried and tested as unhealthy for OU.

 

[Deleted User 268985]

I would prefer a Gothitelle ban to a shadow tag ban. Wobbuffet is not ridiculous like Gothitelle can be. All Goth needs to do is switch in on the right mon, use trick, and it's game over. Wobb on the other hand, can't switch in to most strong attackers and doesn't do much to support mons other than encore. An encore that ends on switching out is far less devastating than tricking a choice scarf permanently.

Sablenite ban gets a strong no from me. This is a very good mon, not an overpowered one. It's not unstoppable - put rocks on Clefable or offensive Heatran and you will consistently have rocks up against a Sableye team.

 

[kiloments]

I'll give my stance on this suspect some other time, but I'm curious as to how this test is going to play out. Are you planning on having 2 separate tests then? One to suspect Sablenite and another for STag? And if not, how does this test their impact on the metagame? I'm just wondering for curiosity's sake.

 

[Widdly_Scuds]

So I'm curious why this thing hasn't been mentioned as it single-handedly shits on both M Sableye and Goititelle with a single set, might be one of the few things that can capitalize on a team with both.

@ Mega Stone
Mold Breaker
Adamant nature
252 Atk, bulk+spe to your liking
-Taunt
-DDance
-Waterfall
-Sub/Crunch (depending on if you would rather guarantee safety against WoW or guarantee OHKO against goth at +1)

Yeah, I get running one specific set is literally over-centralization, but it's just absolutely worth mentioning and will be fun as hell to run on the ladder. Obviously I still wholeheartedly agree that stall these days is disgusting, and one of the two should absolutely go. I'm more keen on BAN SHADOW TAG but DO NOT BAN SABLEYE-MEGA. I would be OK with the opposite, too, but tbh I don't think there's a need to ban both. Sableye-Mega is over-centralizing beyond any doubt, but without Satan Gothitelle and Shadow Tag in general threatening its checks and counters, a lot more builds will be viable that are currently threatened by builds with the two. Clef and Tran will enjoy this greatly and maybe we can even see Mold Breaker Exca with rocks around. Shadow Tag without Sableye-Mega, however, will still present lots of uncompetitive and over-centralizing elements currently in ORAS with the exception of the hazards game. So let's get rid of Shadow Tag and never look back.

 

[Sir Azelf]

I hugely disagree with this sentiment, since it's essentially saying "these mons could be as broken as Gothitelle is" without any hard evidence. Sure, you might be able to make a case that Gothorita would be able to do exactly the same thing as Gothitelle but Wobuffett? Wynaut? These are uncompetitive at the same level as Gothitelle is? Sure, that's all well and good to say, but what you're doing is suspecting a mon based on theory. Unlike Gothitelle, who has proven to be cancerous at high levels of both ladder and tournament play, none of the other users of Shadow Tag have done anything noteworthy – hell you even state this in the OP, calling them "quite unseen and less effective than Gothitelle".

It'd be like during the Landorus suspect suspecting Nidoking and Nidoqueen as well, just because they'll likely be fulling the same role as Landorus if it was banned. It's a flawed method that honestly sets both a bad precedent and also makes it that much harder to actually argue that Shadow Tag Gothitelle should leave the tier through this suspect test, since now we have to argue that Gothita and Wynaut are uncompetitive to an extent that needs to be banned.

In short, this is very similar to the ban Protean, not Greninja argument that gets shut down every time it occurs.

Now, so that this post isn't a rant about the suspect itself, here's my two cents.

Mega Sableye provides a valuable form of counterplay to hazard stacking that forces the opponent to think about what they're doing. Unlike other Magic Bounce mons, Sableye is able to stick around for a long time and continuously cause the opponent to think before just clicking Stealth Rock. Sure, that can be annoying to people who enjoy mindless offense, but to stall it provides a valuable way to stick around. If you look at it from an offense perspective, banning Sableye would make stall significantly easier to deal with, but from the other perspective it allows stall to beat hazard stacking offense much more easily. Sure, most people play offensively, but that doesn't mean that things offense finds annoying should be banned. I'm kind of inclined to keep Mega Sableye around, but not with Gothitelle still here.

And for the reasons above, I can't in good faith say that Shadow Tag should be banned when only one user of the ability has been tried and tested as unhealthy for OU.

Honestly this is the best post in this thread.

On a similar note, i do also enjoy how Manaphy and Hoopa-U were basically ignored despite them getting shouts too or this suspect test just solely about nerfing "sablegoth"? :|

 

[Sweep]

thanks sir azelf for the riveting commetnary : D

time to kill everyoine with omastar as usual, have fun reqs laddering sableye is fine

 

[Karxrida]

I believe replays of Gothette or whatever the hell it's called were provided in the PR thread for S-Tag, so suspecting the ability as a whole isn't as baseless as you make it out to be.

Keeping this short because I'm on vacation. Both are incredibly dumb, restrictive, uncompetitive, and support a honestly really scum playstyle. I don't understand why people want to keep M-Sableye around when it dictates the flow of the match to an absurd degree.

 

[BKC]

No one gives a fuck about hoopa anymore. It's definitely a good poke and it performs well in its role but to suggest it's anywhere near suspect worthy let alone overpowered is laughable. Manaphy is in the same boat except it is really bad against offense because it's initially weak as sin and doesn't check or resist anything of note unless you count using your resilience to bullet punch to try and burn mzor. Maybe it'll bust shit open a bit with the rare salac/custap or very... passively check weavile if running rd rest but that's about it. Hoopa at least can check, like, lati@s/zams and crush just about everything that switches in. Scarf is pretty dangerous too and av opens up more opportunies to tank hits from things like keld/starmie.

As for stag/msab: thank satan almighty we are about to get rid of 2 of the last 3 things preventing oras from being really great, #3 being scald of course!
edit: oh and torn-t. fuck that thing.

 

[ABR]

For those of you saying that only Gothitelle is broken, I can at least show why the entire Goth family is. This is a post I made a little while back in a Shadow Tag centric thread:

I decided to test out Gothorita over Gothitelle on that stall (Sab/Goth/Skarm/Chans/Quag/Amoong), and I must say it should undoubtedly be tested/banned alongside Gothitelle. During my tests, I used the following set:

Gothorita (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 248 HP / 32 SpD / 228 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Psychic
- Thunder Wave
- Rest

This is the same set that Gothitelle runs, except with max bulk to tank moves such as (the less frequent) modest Gardevoir's Hyper Voice (252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 32 SpD Gothorita: 277-327 (85.7 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO) and enough speed for Garchomp. I have a few replays to support my case.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-270940714
Gothorita Twaves the Skarmory and later tricks it to allow myself to permanently keep rocks. If Skarmory does anything besides defog, then obviously rocks stay, and if it does defog, then Gothorita can just PP stall it out to get rocks at that point (which I did). Gothorita also breaks the Amoonguss in this game (although with a tiny bit of hax), but it surely shows just how much Gothorita can do to a team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-270945610
Gothorita pulls off the usual tanking Hyper Voice and Twaving back strategy, which is generally a very reliable way of handling Gardevoir. It is known that Healing Wish + Gardevoir generally breaks this team, but this just goes to show what an inescapable Twave can do for an otherwise horrible matchup.

I think it is pretty evident that we should at least suspect/ban the entire Goth family, if not Shadow Tag altogether.

 

[RufflesPro]

I'm probably going to get a lot of hate for this, but w/e:

I couldn't care less about Mega Sableye, but I do not think Gothitelle, or Shadow Tag, should be banned.

Yes you CAN call me biased or whatever, but Gothitelle is such an important aspect in the meta to an extent that people don't really realize. Not only as a monster that is used on fat/stall builds, but also on Balanced and even Bulky Offense builds. This thing, for one, cripples SO many mons that can otherwise take 2 kills from Stall minimum, such as Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross, Manaphy, Knock Off/LO CM Clefable, etc. It also ironically breaks stall itself, it can take out at least 1 mon from Stall out (if played right) such as Chansey, Clefable, Amoonguss, or Quagsire which can be very crucial to a team.

But here's an example in Stall's sake:

How the fuck is stall supposed to stop this beast without Gothitelle? Rain Dance + TG, Cam Mind + RD + Rest, or even Rain Dance + TG + Rest, are all sets that literally 6-0 stall with absolute fucking ease and the only legit thing I think of right now that can stop it is MAX SPD CALM MIND UNAWARE Clefable and both you AND me KNOW that this just sounds absolutely terrible. And worse of all, all Manpahy has to do is burn clef and switch out, and with rocks up, it comes later and one thing will have to die for sure. Oh and guess what if Mega Sableye is banned = easier to get hazards = easier to beat stall = harder and harder for stall.

Oh and don't let me even start about Taunt Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross, or NP Togekiss (now with Leftover recovery to make it even worse!)

People are /always/ against stall, but i guess they can't see the other side of the spectrum? If a balanced metagame means a metagame where the main playstyles are almost equally viable, then banning both, or even either, of Goth or Mega Sableye, will assuredly not going to take us there. I always thought that the current metagame is decently balanced (hence not an actual suspect / ban in ages), and that the recent "rise in stall" or whatever some people are imagining, is just another metagame shift, if anything. Worst case scenario, ban Mega Sab but keep Shadow Tag & Gothitelle.

Don't go crazy on me, this is just an opinion.

 

[Seth Vilo]

Having been a Sableye user since Prankster came out, I'm strongly of the opinion that Sablenite is not broken at all. There are plenty of ways to outplay Sableye, as well as simply beating the poor thing to death, which is more than possible. Yes, it adds a lot of tools to stall, but stall almost needs it with the power creep, and I don't feel that it breaks it at all. I know plenty of things Sableye can't handle, including every other S-rank and plenty of things in the top rankings. And their not top ranking because of Sableye; they're top rankings because of general viability. So I'm not seeing the argument that Sableye is the cause of much metagame shift, other than giving stall and more balanced teams a good "utility knife".

Gothitelle and family, on the other hand, I think are completely broken. It's something that you literally cannot stop, and cannot really prepare for. It will Trick you, lock you, and either set up all over you or be cruel and make you Struggle to death. I think that Gothitelle and its line are broken for having the ability to use more than a couple moves, unlike the Wobb family. I would even be for simply banning of Gothitelle and family because of their power to do with you whatever they want, and you cannot react or do anything the entire time.

I'll be playing the ladder very hard, and my opinion may change, but for now I'm strongly on the NO Ban on Sablenite, and the BAN on Gothitelle. My quick opinion before bed, and as a many-year Sableye user.

 

[false]

I feel like by this point, everyone was expecting this to happen at some point, although maybe not at the same time. If I had to vote to either ban both, or to not, then I'd definitely vote to ban both. Luckily that isn't that case, which is good, because in my opinion, Mega-Sableye should not be banned.

Think back to earlier in ORAS when many people were utilising Manaphy as a way to beat Stall. Manaphy was almost considered for a suspect test because it was so consistently devastating against Stall or Semi-Stall builds. The popularisation of Gothitelle has made Manaphy, formerly a 'suspect worthy' Pokémon, with fantastic stallbreaking potential, far less appealing. This is just one of many cases where Gothitelle is able to, from team preview, target and remove the opponent's biggest threat to the Gothitelle user's team. Some other fantastic stallbreakers, which are common targets for Gothitelle are; Talonflame, Clefable, Mega-Gardevoir, Gliscor, and Togekiss.
Without Gothitelle plaguing the metagame, many stallbreakers would, once again, become viable. This also will affect teambuilding. Now, because the pool of potential stallbreakers will become much larger, teams will be allowed more variety, as their team will not 'auto-lose' to stall because they lack Shed Shell Togekiss. The larger pool of stallbreakers will in turn make Mega-Sableye's job much harder, as there will be more viable Pokémon that threaten it, and no uncompetitive way to just remove them for little cost. Many know, if there is one thing Mega-Sableye does not appreciate, it is pressure. Sableye's small HP stat, and lack of resistances make it difficult to withstand too many hits, and it is not uncommon to see Mega-Sableye have to Recover 3-4x in a row just to stay in shape. Fire types, Fairy types, and strong wallbreakers are not uncommon Pokemon in OU, and finding a way to beat Mega-Sableye, especially with Goth out of the equation, is not even close to farfetched.
One of the arguments I see coming up a lot is that Mega-Sableye constricts teambuilding. Firstly; Mega-Sableye restricts teambuilding no more than Pokémon such as Mega-Charizard-X. With Zard-X, you could make the argument that teambuilders are forced to bring at least 1 of the following.
A: A physical wall, which can take 2 hits from +0 Zard-X (eg. Hippo, Slowbro, Landorus-T etc.)
B: A Pokémon that could revenge +1 Zard-X (eg. Scarf Latios, 100% Mega-Diancie, 100% Tyranitar etc.)
Remembering that if the opponent does manage to weaken your answer for Zard-X, you simply lose.
I don't have a whole lot to say about Mega-Sableye. This Pokémon wasn't even S ranked just recently, but it did happen to find it's way back to S rank just as Gothitelle became popular. That can't be a coincidence. Gothitelle makes Mega-Sableye seem better than it is by weaknening the pool of viable stallbreakers that Mega-Sableye based teams must prepare for.
Also, to anyone who is saying that Mega-Sableye makes it impossible for teams to get entry hazards up. That is incorrect. Mega-Sableye cannot guarantee to be at 100% at all times. Mega-Sableye cannot switch into Hippowdon if at 70% or less, as it runs a 54% risk of being 2HKOed by Earthquake. Landorus-T only needs Standard Mega-Sableye at 80% before Mega-Sableye can no longer afford to switch into Earthquake (61% chance to be 2HKOed). Obviously there are also other Stealth Rockers which will always get rocks up vs Mega-Sableye. Not saying you should be forced to run them, but Heatran, and Clefable are surefire ways to ensure Stealth Rocks vs a Mega-Sableye team. Even with Mega-Sableye on a team, it is not impossible to get your hazards up. Also remember the most popular Pokémon in the game right now. Mega-Sableye does not like switching into Dragon Tail from Garchomp. Of course these situations are all hypothetical, but they are all common enough situations, and likely one that could be related to.
Lastly, Mega-Sableye's speed is actually very important. The fact that it is always slower not only leaves it prone to being 2HKOed after a small amount of damage, but also leaves it especially vulnerable to the likes of Iron Head / Icicle Crash flinches etc.
Please remember this is just my opinion. I have never really written something like this before, so keep in mind this is my first try at it. I haven't managed to comment on everything, but that's my first impression. Hopefully my 2 cents can drive conversation.

TL;DR
Goth makes M-Sab's job look easy. Without Goth, Mega-Sableye would have to deal with a much larger number of stallbreakers.
Goth is an uncompetitive element of teambuilding, allowing a user to remove a potentially threatening Pokémon for little risk.
BAN GOTH / SHADOW TAG
DO NOT BAN SABLENITE

Also, Run the Jewels is my avi, and one of my favourite rap duos of all time. Props to whoever decided the name [:​

 

[Kav]

I don't really care too much for the viability of stall as much as much as reducing matchup wins. Sableye is kind of awkward to build around and it can really stretch teams thin in trying to account for it.

I personally dont really have exceptional problems with goth on stall. I feel like without sableye, there are more openings to break into stall teams as they spend turns removing hazards, on top of racking up more damage. Goths ability to completely screw passive mons is still really strong though. I'm in favor of banning shadow tag just because trappers always feel kinda braindead to use and OU would probably be more fun with goth gone.

 

[Aquarium1]

I've been reading through the thread and I feel like alot of people aren't looking at this from the stall player perspective. I personally believe that goth is broken but one of the main reason goth stall became a things was that gothitelle was stall only way to really exist right now. We have insanely powerful stall the tier right now, gliscor, togekiss, talonflame, manaphy, etc that I can't imagine how stall will function without goth. Goth might have to say in tier because without it stall can't exist ( or we could ban manaphy but not the time for that discussion). I don't play stall so if any stall player can reply to this comment and let me know if what I'm saying is true or complete bull shit would be appreciated.

 

[Future]

Let's start by saying...KEEP BOTH BUT BAN THEM FROM BEING ON THE SAME TEAM


To be honest, I'm not the type of person that enjoys playing full stall nor do I enjoying playing against it, but I think it's safe to say it has it's ups and downs. I understand when people say stall its a mindless playstyle when they face it, but it does take some skill to an extent. You have a lot of Stallbreakers that stall surprisingly have no switchins too, which suprises me. A few being Hoopa-Unbound, CM Mega-Gardevoir and Mega-Garchomp which you don't see too often. On to Gothitelle. Goth adds support in which it can either take down passive mons or cripple some wallbreakers and kill itself in the process. Now stall isn't as good as it used to be. I'd say stall was semi-decent during mid-late XY. Reason being is There are too many stallbreakers roaming around in the current metagame. Again, scarf gothitelle is a useful niche but not a broken one, there's a reason it's used on ONE archetype, being stall. I do agree I hate goth stall with a passion but let's be honest, if your team auto loses to gothitelle alone, there's a problem. The problem persists in your Teambuilding. Don't be that person that completely avoids preparing for stall because it's not as common as any other playstyle and cry because you can't beat it.

What you don't understand is that stall is also restricted on its own teambuilding.

Sure, stall can work just fine without Sableye, but the hazard control that he provides is irreplaceable. Hazard stacking vs stall is rather easy since most mons are passive. If you hazard stack vs stall, the stall user is forced to defog, seeing as how not all stall teams can fit starmie or Excadrill on them. That means that bisharp hazard stacking is a threat and that you have to have something for that.
Then you have to have something for hoopa, talonflame, most Manaphy forms, keldeo, breloom, heracross, etc.

You shouldn't just look at teambuilding in an offensive vs stall view, but in a stall vs every other play style as well. The one thing a lot of people forget is STALL IS A LEGIT PLAYSTYLE.

"Get rid of Lando-I it literally is unbeatable with RP"
then prepare for it, bring priority water or ice. After we got rid of Lando what happened??? Stall rose in popularity and it was the only thing people were using. The real truth of the matter is keeping the metagame balanced NOT healthy. If we got rid of Sab, then offense can just hazard stack and spam and be overpowered for stall and balance. I don't want to hear all that "stall is cancer, nobody has time for long matches" then why are you even playing mons if you don't have time? MSab keeps the metagame in check disallowing stuff to just come in and shit on one playstyle.

My friend MattyBrollic said this:

"Stall will still be viable even without goth and sab, but the fact that you can more safely stack hazards and run stall breakers with an item that isn't shed shell and not be forced to run a pursuit trapper on top of that, is healthy for the meta."


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I disagree with this to an extent. I for one don't like playing full stall nor do I like playing against it but if we got rid of two Pokemon in attempt to eliminate a whole playstyle just because "we don't like playing against it, we don't have time for long matches" then why are you on Pokemon showdown if you "don't have time" (general statement, not directed towards you Matt) it makes no sense to demoralize a whole playstyle just so we (offensive users) have it easier. You shouldn't be playing mons to begin with if you don't have time. Also, PREPARE FOR STALL, I don't know how many times I have to say this.

Bring a pursuit user.

I don't want to hear:

"being forced to run a pursuit trapper or a shed shell toge is HEAVILY limiting to team building"

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Not really. With this logic, that's like saying I shouldn't be forced to bring a check to any wallbreaker or threat or playstyle for that instance, I should have freedom in what I want to use. It's ignorant to only look at mons in a offense vs offense point of view and completely ignore stall like it doesn't exist. You're not forced to run either if you can make a semi decent team that has wallbreakers and shit like hoopa diggers garde etc etc you should have no problem beating Sab stall. Only thing people cry about is Sab because offense can't hazard stack and spam shit and kill, so they complain. Key to being a good teambuilder is preparing for all playstyles not just offense and balance. stall is a legitimate playstyle.

Matt: "Dude... there are plenty of mons and teams that destroy goth stall, but they make you more susceptible to fast paced offense"
Me: Run wallbreakers and other stuff that wear down stall I have a few teams that are anti stall that don't have too bad of a matchup against offense
Matt: Yea but "not too bad of a match up" is not as good as a good match up
Me: No team is perfect don't forget, so with that logic you can't complain about goth stall, amirite?

One key factor most people forget about playing offense vs stall is that the offensive users seems to play lazy. If you have a way of beating stall and wearing it down, make doubles, if you have a pursuit user, make a double and trap and kill goth. You guys don't mind making doubles and triples vs offense and balance, so why play lazy vs stall?


That's all I have for now, thanks for reading, hope you enjoy!!