np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[ensoriki]

This is ridiculous
If Weather IS the meta, than it need not necessarily be broken. Not being able to use non weather teams doesn't mean anything if this is a weather based generation.
Gen 1 was speed based with it's crit love, gen 2 was stally, advance was...beautiful...gen 4 was salamence based for awhile :P.
If gen 5 is weather based than wtf is the point?
Your going to ban rain, sun, hail and sand? Or no your going to keep sand because somehow tyrannitar and Hippowdon are cool despite being the best of the lot in the OU. "Oh but drizzle is great support"
Whole point of weather is to support.
I don't think it kills everyone to either run a weather of their choice, or do something ANTI weather.
Trick room goes past all those speed boosting abilities STILL.

 

[SlimMan]

In that case, you can either accept Tyranitar and Hippo with their 5th gen movepools (which are likely to be upgraded in Gray / RS remakes anyway) and use them in OU, or ban them to Ubers like we do Groudon and Kyogre. If Auto-Sand is broken, they have to go.

How many things are broken in sand? Personally, I say zero. But for the moment, let's assume it's Dory and Randorosu.

Sand can only be considered broken because of these two "broken" mons in sand. And it has other viable uses, such as stall.

For one thing, Dory can be considered like a non-hax Inconsistent. It's only even called into question due to its ability. Randorosu is a single mon.

Should we really cripple two perfectly viable mons and two or more playstyles simply because we want to keep Rand and Dory OU?

The only reason Drizzle is being nominated is because there are so many abusers that it is clearly the weather which is broken, though I still disagree.

But with only two abusers, I think we can safely say that they are the ones who are broken and not sand itself. Not to mention that Dory has another non-DW ability while T-Tar and Hippo do not.

Or were you not even talking about this? Were you saying "if they are broken, they get banned"?

 

[IcyMan28]

How many things are broken in sand? Personally, I say zero. But for the moment, let's assume it's Dory and Randorosu.

Sand can only be considered broken because of these two "broken" mons in sand. And it has other viable uses, such as stall.

For one thing, Dory can be considered like a non-hax Inconsistent. It's only even called into question due to its ability. Randorosu is a single mon.

Should we really cripple two perfectly viable mons and two or more playstyles simply because we want to keep Rand and Dory OU?

The only reason Drizzle is being nominated is because there are so many abusers that it is clearly the weather which is broken, though I still disagree.

But with only two abusers, I think we can safely say that they are the ones who are broken and not sand itself. Not to mention that Dory has another non-DW ability while T-Tar and Hippo do not.

Or were you not even talking about this? Were you saying "if they are broken, they get banned"?

I was saying that if Auto-Sand is broken, then they get banned, I wasn't necessarily stating that Sand itself is what's broken.

 

[Jonathan]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, banning Speed boosting abilities? You guys are getting way too ban-happy. I mean, not everything with Swift Swim is even broken. In the event of a ban, we're taking Swift Swim off of Lumineon, Tsunbeaa, and other things that suck. And also we're really walking the fine line of outright nerfing certain Pokemon just to make sure they fit with our own standards. (Is anyone even trying to avoid that anymore?)

I feel like you didn't even read my post beyond the opening sentence. If Drizzle is going to get the banhammer anyway, who gives a shit about Swift Swim [insert Pokemon]. The 1% of teams out there that will run Rain Dance @ Damp Rock? If you haven't already, please read my original post and my responses to the people who have raised similar questions to yours.

With Rain, like, every shitty Water type in the book has Swift Swim and on top of that, most of them can still be feasibly countered within the context of the current metagame. For things like Lumineon and Floatzel, perma-rain is their only chance at salvation. Individual sweepers like Kingdra can be evaluated, but it's clear to me that the ability itself isn't the culprit; all it really does is boost speed under a certain condition that can easily be nullified through other means. Not a broken quality at all. We should either be looking at auto-Drizzle/Drought or the Pokemon that abuse it best, but nothing more.

For the record I don't think perma-rain even with the Swift Swimmers is broken. But a lot of people seem to and so I'm trying to find a middle ground that creates both a balanced and diversified OU metagame.

As I see it we have four ways of handling rain:

1) Do nothing, assuming we conclude Drizzle isn't broken. For the record this would be my ideal solution.
2) Ban Drizzle. This removes at least two viable playstyles (rain stall and rain offense) and has a serious negative impact on OU's diversity. You're worried about Lumineon's "only chance of salvation?" Please. Without Drizzle, Pokemon who are actually viable sweepers like Ludiculo and Kabutops won't be seeing the light of day, not to mention defensive threats like Parasect.
3) Ban the broken Swift Swimmers, not the ability. This is what I suggested at first in the other thread, but it seems a lot of people find pretty much all the Swift Swimmers ban-worthy (apart from the crappy ones you listed).
4) Ban Speed Boosting Abilities. And here we have a solution that
- doesn't negatively impact OU's diversity (both strategies used and Pokemon seen) the way option 2) does.
- appeases those who find "perma-rain" broken. I use quotation marks because really it's the Pokemon with Swift Swim in perma rain that they find broken.
- still allows for effective, yet more manageable, offensive rain teams. We get the benefits of seeing Pokemon like Ludiculo and Kabutops around more often (which we wouldn't if we were to ban the actual Pokemon). As for Lumineon and co. who on earth uses them in the current perma-rain environment anyway? Only if we proceed with option 3) (and at this rate 1) and 2) seem the most popular) would we even see those Pokemon in OU, and that's a stretch.

 

[SlimMan]

I feel like you didn't even read my post beyond the opening sentence. If Drizzle is going to get the banhammer anyway, who gives a shit about Swift Swim [insert Pokemon]. The 1% of teams out there that will run Rain Dance @ Damp Rock? If you haven't already, please read my original post and my responses to the people who have raised similar questions to yours.




For the record I don't think perma-rain even with the Swift Swimmers is broken. But a lot of people seem to and so I'm trying to find a middle ground that creates both a balanced and diversified OU metagame.

As I see it we have four ways of handling rain:

1) Do nothing, assuming we conclude Drizzle isn't broken. For the record this would be my ideal solution.
2) Ban Drizzle. This removes at least two viable playstyles (rain stall and rain offense) and has a serious negative impact on OU's diversity. You're worried about Lumineon's "only chance of salvation?" Please. Without Drizzle, Pokemon who are actually viable sweepers like Ludiculo and Kabutops won't be seeing the light of day, not to mention defensive threats like Parasect.
3) Ban the broken Swift Swimmers, not the ability. This is what I suggested at first in the other thread, but it seems a lot of people find pretty much all the Swift Swimmers ban-worthy (apart from the crappy ones you listed).
4) Ban Speed Boosting Abilities. And here we have a solution that
- doesn't negatively impact OU's diversity (both strategies used and Pokemon seen) the way option 2) does.
- appeases those who find "perma-rain" broken. I use quotation marks because really it's the Pokemon with Swift Swim in perma rain that they find broken.
- still allows for effective, yet more manageable, offensive rain teams. We get the benefits of seeing Pokemon like Ludiculo and Kabutops around more often (which we wouldn't if we were to ban the actual Pokemon). As for Lumineon and co. who on earth uses them in the current perma-rain environment anyway? Only if we proceed with option 3) (and at this rate 1) and 2) seem the most popular) would we even see those Pokemon in OU, and that's a stretch.

Banning Drizzle would mean we could still use Rain Dance and Damp Rock.
Banning Swift Swim means that rain offense is dead.

 

[Jonathan]

Banning Drizzle would mean we could still use Rain Dance and Damp Rock.
Banning Swift Swim means that rain offense is dead.

Read my original post. Rain Dance/Damp Rock was a niche strategy rarely seen last gen. With Sand Stream being even more prevalent this gen. and not to mention the stronger threats around, it's going to be even harder to set up.

On the other hand Rain Stall is a very viable strategy that does not deserve to die. And Rain Offense would hardly be dead, just neutered. What I'm proposing is something that will, on the whole I believe, be a positive influence on the OU metagame. If something has to go it should be the thing that would have the least impact on OU, and I feel pretty confident that those crappy Rain teams from 4th gen. fall into that category.

 

[SJCrew]

I feel like you didn't even read my post beyond the opening sentence.

I didn't read any of it actually, so I suppose that was my fault. But I'll probably double back and edit something in to see what I missed.

EDIT: I don't think your middle ground solution is going to work. You're still proposing we ban a trait that isn't inherently broken in and of itself, which is primarily the reason we've ever banned moves and abilities anyway. Double Speed itself under X condition is just not broken and we don't get to just pick and choose between who gets to have the ability and who doesn't. Banning Drizzle or Toed entails banning only one ability as opposed to several, when said ability isn't even broken.

Fuck, I'd use Drizzle even if only Magikarp could get it. The boost it adds to the playstyle all around is just ridiculous.

 

[XienZo]

With something as unprecedented as banning pokes related to a fairly decentralized(that is, it needs several pokemon to work together, and any single one by itself is far less powerful) aspect, weather, wouldn't it be best to continue with the standardized, objective system that we run suspect tests with, and actually TEST how each proposed system of banning would turn out?

Basically, if every major method of banning (weather inducer vs weather ability vs weather abuser vs weather abusing ability) is treated as a subject in a "suspect" test, we could actually see the effects each one would have.

I just feel that with something that we have basically NO previous experience in(banning something in a tightly connected set of pokes), it'd easily be problematic if we go forth and just debate on paper before we basically set a precedent.

 

[FearZeCrawdaunt]

Why are we talking about banning weather?

I fail to see how placing weather control as top priority in the metagame is any different than placing high speed as the top priority in Gen 4. As far as I'm concerned, weather allows a greater diversity of pokemon to be effective, and that makes the metagame more enjoyable. Once the initial Ubers classifications are established, things can calm down a little and more precise decisions regarding weather can be made.

Personal opinion, don't get ban-happy at the start. Begin by banning the bare essentials, things that >80% of the community agrees should be banned, and then spend the next few months slowly but surely developing a better understanding of the metagame and what should be banned on top of the listed Ubers.

 

[fidgety]

Why are we talking about banning weather?

I fail to see how placing weather control as top priority in the metagame is any different than placing high speed as the top priority in Gen 4. As far as I'm concerned, weather allows a greater diversity of pokemon to be effective, and that makes the metagame more enjoyable. Once the initial Ubers classifications are established, things can calm down a little and more precise decisions regarding weather can be made.

Personal opinion, don't get ban-happy at the start. Begin by banning the bare essentials, things that >80% of the community agrees should be banned, and then spend the next few months slowly but surely developing a better understanding of the metagame and what should be banned on top of the listed Ubers.

lol i was just about 2 post the same thing give or take. first i think we should focus on manaphy it has got 2 go then in later rounds dory + kingdra i agree w/ markus that a huge plethora of different strats are opened up by the auto weather abilities that are nearly completely worthless w/o them it's not like it's groudon/kyogre its toad/tails where the only thing they have on tar (as the best example available) is the utility produced by the auto weather abilities scince as raw pokes no abilities factored in they are competely out-classed.

 

[B-Lulz]

I feel like you didn't even read my post beyond the opening sentence. If Drizzle is going to get the banhammer anyway, who gives a shit about Swift Swim [insert Pokemon]. The 1% of teams out there that will run Rain Dance @ Damp Rock? If you haven't already, please read my original post and my responses to the people who have raised similar questions to yours.




For the record I don't think perma-rain even with the Swift Swimmers is broken. But a lot of people seem to and so I'm trying to find a middle ground that creates both a balanced and diversified OU metagame.

As I see it we have four ways of handling rain:

1) Do nothing, assuming we conclude Drizzle isn't broken. For the record this would be my ideal solution.
2) Ban Drizzle. This removes at least two viable playstyles (rain stall and rain offense) and has a serious negative impact on OU's diversity. You're worried about Lumineon's "only chance of salvation?" Please. Without Drizzle, Pokemon who are actually viable sweepers like Ludiculo and Kabutops won't be seeing the light of day, not to mention defensive threats like Parasect.
3) Ban the broken Swift Swimmers, not the ability. This is what I suggested at first in the other thread, but it seems a lot of people find pretty much all the Swift Swimmers ban-worthy (apart from the crappy ones you listed).
4) Ban Speed Boosting Abilities. And here we have a solution that
- doesn't negatively impact OU's diversity (both strategies used and Pokemon seen) the way option 2) does.
- appeases those who find "perma-rain" broken. I use quotation marks because really it's the Pokemon with Swift Swim in perma rain that they find broken.
- still allows for effective, yet more manageable, offensive rain teams. We get the benefits of seeing Pokemon like Ludiculo and Kabutops around more often (which we wouldn't if we were to ban the actual Pokemon). As for Lumineon and co. who on earth uses them in the current perma-rain environment anyway? Only if we proceed with option 3) (and at this rate 1) and 2) seem the most popular) would we even see those Pokemon in OU, and that's a stretch.

Wow. Just Wow.

Ok say Drizzle isn't broken (WHICH IT IS), the metagame will be utterly centralised around Rain and Sandstorm teams. Hopestly the reason this metagame has been awful to play has been because of 3 reasons: Shaymin, Inconsistent and Rain. Rain is such a god damn easy strategy to use, it is the least skillful I have ever seen. It is mindless, all you have to do is spam attacks while you are miles faster than any other non rain sweeper. Rain is so broke that people are using stupid things like Timid Specs Kingdra to counter it. If that doesn't show it is broken I do not know what is.

As for banning Swift Swimmers, I personally still believe the power of Water attacks in rain is the problem. I personally used Gyarados on a Rain team and it worked fantastically due to its ability to check some common rain counters, and just being a general good switchin. Would a Kabutops with no Rain attack boosts still be good with 500+ Speed? Yes. Would it be broken? Probably not.

In conclusion, even if you don't think Rain is broken, its pretty obvious that it is super centralising. Another period with it will be god awful and I don't think it takes another period to prove that it hinders the metagame by a significant amount.

 

[Lou Cypher]

I personally prefer Rain over Sand. At least Rain doesn't instantly negate any Focus Sashes/Leftovers like Sand does. Also, Sand has the most broken sweeper of the bunch (Dory), who has a base ATK + Speed rating that is unmatched by anything Rain or Sun can offer. Sand also comes with the benefits of running Tyranitar, who is a great poke in its own, or Hippowdon, who is a great physical wall. Sand > Rain, even though at first glance that might be different.
Thats why I agree on the Speed Boost Abilities ban. While this may hurt Chlorophyllers, it evens the playfield a lot. Sand still gets the damage boon and the Sand Power ability, Rain gets the healing abilities and Water STAB boost, Sun gets the SP ATK boosting abilities and Fire STAB boost, Hail has the damage boon and...a bunch of crappy pokes nobody cares about.
With the speed boosting abilities out, the weather will most definitely still be used. Ninetales on its own isn't scary. Ninetales with a STAB boost and removal of its water weakness is a lot scarier. Politoed with a STAB boost is also a lot scarier. Both however are far from broken.
If any weather inducer is broken its TTar. The way I see it, TTar is by far the best OU Weather inducer. If you take the abilities away, I recon it'd go like...
TTAR
Hippowdon
Ninetales
Abomasnow
Politoed
TTar would still be a viable OU with powerful moves, Hippowdon would still be a good tank able to phaze and set up rocks, Ninetales would be a lower tier special sweeper, Abomasnow a grass poke with interesting dual type but mediocre stats and Politoed would still be junk like it was in the previous gens.

 

[B-Lulz]

I personally prefer Rain over Sand. At least Rain doesn't instantly negate any Focus Sashes/Leftovers like Sand does. Also, Sand has the most broken sweeper of the bunch (Dory), who has a base ATK + Speed rating that is unmatched by anything Rain or Sun can offer. Sand also comes with the benefits of running Tyranitar, who is a great poke in its own, or Hippowdon, who is a great physical wall. Sand > Rain, even though at first glance that might be different.
Thats why I agree on the Speed Boost Abilities ban. While this may hurt Chlorophyllers, it evens the playfield a lot. Sand still gets the damage boon and the Sand Power ability, Rain gets the healing abilities and Water STAB boost, Sun gets the SP ATK boosting abilities and Fire STAB boost, Hail has the damage boon and...a bunch of crappy pokes nobody cares about.
With the speed boosting abilities out, the weather will most definitely still be used. Ninetales on its own isn't scary. Ninetales with a STAB boost and removal of its water weakness is a lot scarier. Politoed with a STAB boost is also a lot scarier. Both however are far from broken.
If any weather inducer is broken its TTar. The way I see it, TTar is by far the best OU Weather inducer. If you take the abilities away, I recon it'd go like...
TTAR
Hippowdon
Ninetales
Abomasnow
Politoed
TTar would still be a viable OU with powerful moves, Hippowdon would still be a good tank able to phaze and set up rocks, Ninetales would be a lower tier special sweeper, Abomasnow a grass poke with interesting dual type but mediocre stats and Politoed would still be junk like it was in the previous gens.

How is Politoed the worst? In Rain teams I don't think anyone thought of it as a real detriment, not to mention the fact that, barring Abomasnow, it beats all the other weather inducers 1 on 1. Tyranitar can't really switch in on a Specs Hydro Pump even with max Sp.Def, as well as running the risk of being hit extremely hard by Focus Blast. Not to mention a lot of the time Politoed outspeeds Tyranitar, potentially getting 2 hits in before Tyranitar can hit it once. Keeping Rain up is not as hard as everyone makes it out to be...

 

[Lou Cypher]

On its own, without rain, Politoed is probably the worst, mostly given the fact that its outclassed by so many other waters. Ninetales is a rather exclusive Fire type due to its stat distribution
All I'm saying in the end tho is...
Ban Swift Swim/Chlorophyll/Sand Throw and keep Rain, Sun and Sand in.

 

[Steinhauser]

Personal opinion, don't get ban-happy at the start. Begin by banning the bare essentials, things that >80% of the community agrees should be banned, and then spend the next few months slowly but surely developing a better understanding of the metagame and what should be banned on top of the listed Ubers.

A thousand times this. Before we even consider weather-related bans, we should wait until Manaphy is dead and gone. Manaphy is the element X of rain, the one thing that makes rain seem so broken. Swift Swimmers can all be played around, unless Manaphy is also there threatening the team. If Manaphy gets banned and swift swimmers are STILL a problem, THEN let's consider how to solve it - when we know it really is a problem.

The same point has been raised in the PR thread about banning sleep moves; once the biggest abuser, Darkrai, is eliminated we can more easily evaluate how broken sleep really is.

Dory is a powerhouse, but it's also very easy to check, and will be more so when the 5-ought obviously Uber threats are gone. Again, ban consideration should wait until then.

 

[Jonathan]

EDIT: I don't think your middle ground solution is going to work. You're still proposing we ban a trait that isn't inherently broken in and of itself, which is primarily the reason we've ever banned moves and abilities anyway. Double Speed itself under X condition is just not broken and we don't get to just pick and choose between who gets to have the ability and who doesn't. Banning Drizzle or Toed entails banning only one ability as opposed to several, when said ability isn't even broken.

I agree, Swift Swim/Sand Throw on their own (i.e. with only Rain Dance/Sandstorm to abuse them with) are not inherently broken. But are you suggesting that Drizzle is inherently broken? Do you really think it's the 50% boost to Water moves and the 100% accurate Thunder which sets Drizzle over the top? I don't personally, and even if you do it's something that ideally would be tested.

My point is it's the combination of Swift Swim and Drizzle which people find broken. Because DrizzleToed was introduced only this gen. it's easy to come from 4th gen. with the mindset that Drizzle is what breaks Swift Swim. But if you look at this generation as a standalone generation, a solid argument can be made for Swift Swim Breaking Drizzle (the only possible exception being Manaphy, but that thing is on the fence with or without Drizzle so I don't think it's really fair to consider it).

So if we can agree that neither ability is inherently broken but the combination of them are, why should Drizzle be the one to go? Because it's the "new" factor this generation that's throwing the balance off? No, for the reasons explained in the above paragraph. Because it would involve banning only one Pokemon's Ability as opposed to ~ 15? You may have a point here, but I've checked and _every_ Pokemon who gets Swift Swim has at least one alternate ability that can currently be obtained legally. So isn't it better to have a watered-down Rain Offense/Rain Stall presence in OU than a bunch of Swift Swimmers who will hardly every even be using their ability?

Ok say Drizzle isn't broken (WHICH IT IS), the metagame will be utterly centralised around Rain and Sandstorm teams. Hopestly the reason this metagame has been awful to play has been because of 3 reasons: Shaymin, Inconsistent and Rain. Rain is such a god damn easy strategy to use, it is the least skillful I have ever seen. It is mindless, all you have to do is spam attacks while you are miles faster than any other non rain sweeper. Rain is so broke that people are using stupid things like Timid Specs Kingdra to counter it. If that doesn't show it is broken I do not know what is.

I've been laddering consistently over the past few weeks, at least 20 times a day, and I swear I've seen more Tyranitar/Hippowdon than Politoeds. The usage stats on PO (okay yeah different server, ban list etc, but they still hold some credence) suggest the same thing. Removing Rain will only make things even more centralized around Sand Stream teams.

As for banning Swift Swimmers, I personally still believe the power of Water attacks in rain is the problem. I personally used Gyarados on a Rain team and it worked fantastically due to its ability to check some common rain counters, and just being a general good switchin. Would a Kabutops with no Rain attack boosts still be good with 500+ Speed? Yes. Would it be broken? Probably not.

Fair enough, at least you're actually addressing my argument now. But I disagree that the power of Water attacks in rain is the problem (it's definitely great but it's not what many people find so fearsome about rain). Please read my response to SJCrew as it addresses this point further.

We can agree to disagree on whether the Water STAB boost alone without the Speed Boost is broken, because without further testing everything is Theorymon. And really it should be tested because I have a hard time imagining without the Speed Boost that people would find rain so hard to handle. We don't have any Water types with absurd Special Attack (in the 130+ range) I'm pretty sure Omastar (who is lolish without Swift Swim) is highest at 114. On the physical side, Gyara and Kabutops are fearsome, but Waterfall is their only legitimate physical Water STAB which, remember, only has 80 BP. A 120BP move (after Rain) on something with 125 Attack is hardly game-breaking.

In conclusion, even if you don't think Rain is broken, its pretty obvious that it is super centralising. Another period with it will be god awful and I don't think it takes another period to prove that it hinders the metagame by a significant amount.

Sand Stream is as centralizing or even mores-so, and will DEFINITELY be more centralizing if Rain is banned. Considering your vehement hatred of Rain I'm not expecting any of my post to get through to you though.

Post

Thank you for your support.

 

[ensoriki]

I don't dislike evasion but I feel that if the evasion clause is in effect, evasion...everything, should be banned without hesitation as it creates an unfair dynamic. If double team & minimize were allowed, the metagame would have to adapt to having counters to the influx of evasion users.
However with just inconsistent, bright powder, sand viel & sand cloak I'd say it's much more reasonable, not to pack evasion counters.
We've got things slipping through the cracks and for what?
If evasions banned for promoting an undesired metagame, how are these any different?
Of course if evasion was allowed I doubt I would feel the same way, as I think I'd just adapt that that point.

In terms of weather.
I say all weather but sun is balanced, sun appears to be the weakest link (but sun itself is not weak).
It's a weather based metagame, and killing the inducers, snaking around Kindra and the like I feel is part of it.
I'm really tempted to add Burungeru to my team because with it's water absorb rain becomes even easier to snake through.

A manaphy and Kingdra ban would probably drop RD right into very calm levels. Though look at the nominations and everyones thoughts, that would never happen. So Drizzles going to end up banned, and looking at it. Rain's going to struggle having to set up when it's competiting with the other weathers and high powered pokemon who will hit hard upon even attempting to set up.
Taunts also going to screw things up.

 

[fidgety]

honestly if rain is too much after manaphy is gone then kingdra should go. banning swift swim is overkill scince sudenly rain is only good (for the most part) 4 stall where it's outclassed by HAIL isn't the goal of what we're doing here is 2 make as many different strategies viable as possible. 4 example the mence ban last gen prior only offense could consistently flourish b4 it but afterwards stall + balanced teams became completely viable 2 say the least so how is it that such is the case when u ban entire niches + ability types.

stuff like inconsistant where it rigges the battle in favor of 1 side more often than not r understandable + recomended but swift swim + drizzle don't do that.

 

[dragonmaster951753]

If one weather is banned then the rest should be banned with it. I found rain teams in the last gen annoying, and then this gen they got better, but i also found sand teams MORE annoying. They had TTar and he could wreck on his own. I really dont like how everyone is picking on rain alone just because someone else has drizzle now. Everyone needs to look at all the weather together and not just pick out rain just because it now has an auto-inducer. Also, keep in mind sand has two inducers while the rest only have one (outside of ubers), and i have seen several sand teams packing both hippo and TTar to keep their sand constantly flowing, and they always hold dory back for the very end. I haven't been on for awhile so i haven't had a chance to make a sun team, but i think if someone put some time into it, it can be just as annoying as the rest.

All weather needs to be looked at, but not this early. We need to set our sites back on Manaphy, Darkrai, Shaymin-s, and Inconsistent. Those four things MUST go and if there are any more huge threats we should bring them up before its too late, but as of right now, brainstorm about what weather is doing to this gen ALL WEATHER, and save that for the next ban wagon.

Can we quit talking about how broken dory is? Like honestly i found roobushin more threatening because i didn't have a single psychic on my team and he bulked once and OHKOed everyone, thats something to look into. Once i put a psychic on my team they weren't a threat anymore but that was the first time ever that i had to specifically make someone on my team to take him out. Dory was annoying but i had to rethink my strategy on how to take him out when he appears and i found one that was very often, and several people kept posting multiple checks and counters for him, so clearly he isn't broken.

 

[Farukon_o_miru]

For now i think that the best idea is ban weather abuse abilities and don`t ban auto-wheater abilities, it include:
Rain: Swift Swim, Hydration
Sandstorm: Sand Throw, Sand Veil
Sun: Chlorophyll
Hail: It must be tested but i think that perhaps Snow Cloak
After baning these abilities we will have a balanced metagame with many wheather strategies but without troubles in the speed tiers, for now i think that the only thing that balance the metagame (between Shandera and the other pokemon) is the boost of rain for the water attacks (and the power reduction of the fire attacks), and the boost of sand for the special defense of rock types, but if we ban one of those weathers perhaps it can be even more unbalanced and we will need to ban Shandera too, leaving the 5th gen metagame like it was in the 4th gen metagame.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Sadly, I don't get a vote but if I did...

Ban Sand Throw. If it is broken on Doryuzu, it is just as equally if not more broken on Sandslash who does not die in one hit to most Mach Punches, Aqua Jets, etc. Sandslash also has the same movepool as Doryuzu pretty much except has a much more powerful Stone Edge over Rock Slide. It does not need to run Balloon to avoid Earthquakes, most which won't 1-2 hit ko and Life Orb Sandslash is stronger than Balloon Doryuzu (who is much easier to take hits from than Life Orb Doryuzu although it won't like Earthquakes anymore although those would mainly be from mirror and Ditto). If Latios, Shaymin-S, Darkrai (which they most assuredly are it looks like, although maybe Latios), etc go, in sand the only things outrunning are Choice Scarf Latias (and/or Latios if it squeezes by) and Choice Scarf Genie birds who need to run Grass Knot to beat it (or Bor Tail Wind which also helps against Doryuzu before it comes out but how many run Tornelos?)

And Swift Swim is even more broken just by sheer number of abusers. Either Drizzle or Swift Swim must go since together is ridiculous now because if one Doryuzu was bad, so are 3+ of them who get double stab moves and aren't nearly as weak to priority. The only thing holding Rain back in OU is Nattorei (and other weather changers, but none of them can remotely switch in safely except maybe Abomasnow) and having only one pokemon hold it back causes a lot of pressure since if he goes, it will be really tough to win. Before, you just had to hold out 5-8 turns, which while would be difficult sometimes (although much easier with Mr. Tree now if it was needed to do that), but now it is infinite so unless you carry your own weather changer move (and it's overcentralizing to force Pokes to carry random weather moves that won't usually benefit and still, there is a matter of survivng) and poke, it is gone. However, none of the auto weather changers can usually switch in on another (except Hail again of course on water).

Still Nattorei gets blasted by Life Orb Focus Blast Ludicolo for 2 hit ko as well as Abomasnow. Ludicolo has a 4x resist to water and neutrality to grass/ice, carries Swift Swim and has a boosted up stab Giga Drain now. Nattorei well have trouble with that and without a boost, Power Whip only 2 hit koes while Ludicolo is faster. And even if Nattorei survives (from Focus Blast miss while both Power Whips hit), Nattorei has less than half and Specs Kingdra or Kabutops Dancer can come in and Hydro Pump/Low Kick you into oblivion and then without Nattorei, you're going to be pummeled.

And if Rain goes, Sun will be too powerful since it also has some abusers but it's weather user is bad in comparison to rains. Chlorphyll +2 Venasaur, Solar Flare Charizard, Super Speed Mebjuka, Sun boosted Hidiharuma Flare Blitz etc are no laughing matters either, and might be worse since you don't have a prayer without a fire absorber although Heatran will die to Mebjuka Jump Kick/Nature (or was it secret?) Power. You can't really switch in Tyranitar or Hippowdon on like Venasaur or the deer and things like that.

So it is either ban the weather abilities or the weather abuser abilities (although in the case of sun, you can't really ban Chlorophll and the like, you'll have to ban the auto weather as Sun boosted Flare Blitz and Growth boosts and Solar Power Charizard is still ridiculous).

Darkrai, Shaymin-S, Latios, Deoxys (all), Inconsistent, Drizzle/Swift Swim, Drought, and Sand Throw should all go. But people have said enough for the first few listed on why they should go so no need for reiteration.

 

[akarias]

Sand isn't broken. I actually find it quite balanced. Their main draw over rain is the fact that their 3 biggest users have such fantastic stat distribution. Both doryuuzu, garchomp and randorosu are virtually perfectly stated in terms of their roles. The problem is they with their sandstormers share sooooooooo many weaknesses. Breloom and ESPECIALLY gliscor can almost single-handedly destroy sandstorm teams.

Rain has a much better distribution of ability-users. Kingdra and ludicolo share no weaknesses. Toxicroak, despite his absurdly horrendous BST handles many of rain's weaknesses very well, is surprisingly hard to kill with drain punch+leftovers+dry skin, and handles nattorei. Poliwrath, if given 1 turn (with resistances to pursuit and shandera), becomes +6 attack/+2 spe and beats nattorei handly. The thing with rain which makes it balanced is its big users don't have such great stat distribution or stat totals. Kingdra is pretty good mix but doesn't have swords dance (which is better when you have inherent +2 spe) or over 100 attack. Kabutops is walled hard by nattorei, and poliwrath has a very low attack score as well. Rain also has a very hard time getting through blissey/chansey.

 

[Nanoswine]

How do you come to asume that banning any ability that benefits from weather will balance the Pokemon that become too powerful through these abilities. Ban them if you must but removing entire strats that aren't as dangerous without these Pokemon? You must be retarted if you think that is the best course of action especially at this stage.

Use complete sentences!

And in response to what (I think) you asked, why would we ban all of Kingdra, Manaphy, Ludicolo, <other Pokemon that benefits from Rain>, etc. instead of banning Drizzle itself, which would allow us to keep them all available in OU? Suggesting multiple and extensive bans in place of a ban on one ability surely is not the "best course of action."

 

[alphatron]

Kingdra maybe. But while Ludicolo, Qwilfish, Gorebyss, etc, would still be available for use in OU, they definitely won't be used.

Is it still wrong to look at usage statistics to show what the dominating forces in standard play are? PO's server currently has pokemon like Tyranitar, Nattorei, and Doryuzuu at the top. If drizzle/drought were really the main force to be reckoned with, then wouldn't we see politoed, ninetales, and the sweepers who accompany them within the ladder's top ten?

Yes, I'm well aware that pokemon such as ninjask were once OU, and that usage statistics only reflect that and aren't meant to reflect anything more. However, people will naturally gravitate towards whatever strategy is useful and effective. So wouldn't they want to play with the best of the best?

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Sand isn't broken. I actually find it quite balanced. Their main draw over rain is the fact that their 3 biggest users have such fantastic stat distribution. Both doryuuzu, garchomp and randorosu are virtually perfectly stated in terms of their roles. The problem is they with their sandstormers share sooooooooo many weaknesses. Breloom and ESPECIALLY gliscor can almost single-handedly destroy sandstorm teams.

Rain has a much better distribution of ability-users. Kingdra and ludicolo share no weaknesses. Toxicroak, despite his absurdly horrendous BST handles many of rain's weaknesses very well, is surprisingly hard to kill with drain punch+leftovers+dry skin, and handles nattorei. Poliwrath, if given 1 turn (with resistances to pursuit and shandera), becomes +6 attack/+2 spe and beats nattorei handly. The thing with rain which makes it balanced is its big users don't have such great stat distribution or stat totals. Kingdra is pretty good mix but doesn't have swords dance (which is better when you have inherent +2 spe) or over 100 attack. Kabutops is walled hard by nattorei, and poliwrath has a very low attack score as well. Rain also has a very hard time getting through blissey/chansey.

Agree with almost all of that (forgot Poliwrath got Swift Swim as well) but after a Swords Dance, Nattorei isn't walling Kabutops Low Kick. Blissey/Chansey has problems with Poliwrath, Toxicroak, Subseed Ludicolo (who'll wall Blissey/Chansey all day and steal their hp), Kabutops, Tsunbea and all physical attacking ones. Most won't like being paralyzed but they're not going to live against them and if they carry sub...

And Specs Kingdra is amazing with Hydro Pump spamming as well as Draco Meteor. The only thing that isn't 1-2 hit koed by Specs Kingdra in rain is Nattorei (who could get 3 hit koed) and Water absorbers and Blissey. Shell Breakers have insane speed and if they get that, short of Blissey and Nattorei, it's almost game over. Rain is insane and so is Sand (and so would Sun if it wasn't for the first two).