np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[smashlloyd20]

@ SJCrew: Agreed that Deo-A decimates everything besides Scizor (and sometimes Skarmory). But Zor can totally switch into Deo-A and take around 40% or so. Besides Espeed doesn't do jack to Steel types.

@E Pika: Modest Rain Specsdra is insanely powerful. Anyway, people are probably EVing their Wobbs wrong.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

I've been experiencing pretty much the same thing. Wobbuffet is getting decimated by a good number of Pokemon, most of which were OU in Gen IV, which makes my head spin; how the heck is Wobb suddenly taking so much damage? The only reason I can come up with is that most Pokemon have taken a more offensive turn, but even that doesn't make too much sense. As an example, my 252/252 Bold Wobb took ~40% from Tyranitar's Crunch, which seems quite ridiculous.

Choice Band Tyranitar does twice that. But that's Tyranitar. if it did less than 40, it is probably some sort of mixed variant because even Jolly max attack would 2 hit ko with Sandstorm. So about ~49%.

Actually, Max attack Special Politoad can 2 hit ko Wobbuffet in Rain (48.86-57.58%, 47.73% 2 hit ko with Leftovers). Timid Specs Palkia should have ohkoed with Hydro Pump, was it in rain? If not, then it is a 2 hit ko since Wobbuffet would need Max hp/Max SDef to survive Specs Hydro Pump Palkia in rain.

Choice Specs Modest Kingdra's Hydro Pump does do 75.76-89.39 in rain. It is a specs rain boosted Hydro Pump, what do you expect? The numbers are right.

Lot's of things 2 hit ko Wobbuffet. The problem is, that is a 2 hit ko and he will Counter/Mirror Coat back for the ko and he can survive a bunch of weaker attacks that don't have Rain Specs, Specs Stab, Super Effective Band Stab, etc behind it without being 1-2 hit koed. Those high powered moves do have a chance to 1-2 hit ko, except they would die to Counter/Mirror Coat.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

@ SJCrew: Agreed that Deo-A decimates everything besides Scizor (and sometimes Skarmory). But Zor can totally switch into Deo-A and take around 40% or so. Besides Espeed doesn't do jack to Steel types.

@E Pika: Modest Rain Specsdra is insanely powerful. Anyway, people are probably EVing their Wobbs wrong.

No, they're doing it right, pretty much maxing both defenses for best surviveablity. It's just a Rain Dance Stabbed Boosted Hydro Pump does a HELL of a lot of damage to things that don't resist like Wobbuffet and his defenses aren't that good. The fact that he does survive is more amazing than that he takes so much damage because a lot of other things fall to boosted Hydro Pumps in Rain.

If you want to gamble, Deoxys could if he wanted to destroy Scizor. Choice Band Scizor (the standard one 248 hp/252 Atk/10 Spd) is 2 hit koed by Life Orb Psycho Boost and the problem is if Scizor switches in on that, he's almost crippled since he's got like ~28% health left. At -2, Psycho Boost will still ko Scizor. The problem is that now Scizor can't come in now on much of anything else, even if Deoxys does die and you play a prediction game. Scizor can Bullet Punch, ohkoing Deoxys. But if you Bullet Punch, it could switch to something that resists Bullet Punch, they have a healthy Deoxys to take out more of your Pokemon, and Scizor is in deep trouble and can no longer switch in on Deoxys later. Scizor only works as a revenge killer after Deoxys killed something. It can't switch in on Psycho Boost at all. Actually, Super Power is also a 2 hit ko on Scizor so it can't come in on that either. If it carries Hidden Power Fire because it's paranoid, Scizor sure as hell can't switch on that either. If Scizor tries to Pursuit expecting Deoxys to run, Psycho Boost blasts it into oblivion. Should Deoxys die, Scizor can get trapped by the next poke or something. Either way, Deoxys will have lured out and severely hindered/killed a major threat or neccessary revenge killer of the opponents and if it manages to escape unscathed, it is unlikely the opponent will have much to stop it with, considering they sent in Scizor earlier.

The only counter for Deoxys is Spirtomb who is also useful to kill Latios although it can't be switching in on Draco Meteors since Modest Specs has a very good chance of ohkoing. Actually, Spiritomb is a useful counter to almost all offensive Psychics. Sableye CAN work on Deoxys A...maybe. Most Sableye's aren't going to be carrying an offensive move (like Punishment or something) because of Sableye's eh attacking stats. It is more likely to carry Night Shade or something. Statusing Deoxy's is not going to help. However, the problem with Sableye is that if Deoxy's-A is using Icebeam and Sableye made the mistake of switching in on an Icebeam (should it be that unlucky), Sableye will eventually lose before Life Orb kills Deoxys. However, that is only a situational win for Deoxys and most of the time, Sableye will trounce it and Icebeam is need over Shadow Ball/Hidden Power Fire, etc to do enough damage to force Sableye to keep Recovering to surivive but doing over enough so that slowly it will build up that the final Icebeam (at like 30~ health from Life Orb unless Deoxy's Critical hits in which case it 1-2 hkos) kos.

And how many people use Sableye (despite being much better now with Mischievious Heart)?

 

[smashlloyd20]

Deo-A has other counters. Pretty much any weather sweeper destroys it, and really anything that can hit before it.

 

[breh]

@Fluffy Otters

Sableye sucks. It has spinda defences. Actually with any EV spread spinda is bulkier on the speical side, lol

 

[shrang]

Choice Band Tyranitar does twice that. But that's Tyranitar. if it did less than 40, it is probably some sort of mixed variant because even Jolly max attack would 2 hit ko with Sandstorm. So about ~49%.

Actually, Max attack Special Politoad can 2 hit ko Wobbuffet in Rain (48.86-57.58%, 47.73% 2 hit ko with Leftovers). Timid Specs Palkia should have ohkoed with Hydro Pump, was it in rain? If not, then it is a 2 hit ko since Wobbuffet would need Max hp/Max SDef to survive Specs Hydro Pump Palkia in rain.

Choice Specs Modest Kingdra's Hydro Pump does do 75.76-89.39 in rain. It is a specs rain boosted Hydro Pump, what do you expect? The numbers are right.

Lot's of things 2 hit ko Wobbuffet. The problem is, that is a 2 hit ko and he will Counter/Mirror Coat back for the ko and he can survive a bunch of weaker attacks that don't have Rain Specs, Specs Stab, Super Effective Band Stab, etc behind it without being 1-2 hit koed. Those high powered moves do have a chance to 1-2 hit ko, except they would die to Counter/Mirror Coat.

Timid Specs Palkia Hydro Pump in rain vs standard 4th gen Ubers Wobb: 92.61% - 109.09%. So yeah, you can survive about half the time. But yeah, Specs Kingdra does do 73.48% - 86.55% to 28/252+ Wobb, so it appears I just got a high damage roll. I guess it's just Kingdra's power I guess.

EDIT: If Deoxys-A is 2HKOing your Scizor with Psycho Boost + Extremespeed, you should probably try using a bulkier spread. Max SpA Naive Deoxys-A does 52.57% - 61.63% to the standard Ubers Scizor with Psycho Boost while Extremespeed does 25.98% - 30.82%. Yes, that is a possible (albeit unlikely) 2HKO after Stealth Rock, but if you run Leftovers with that or something, Scizor WILL live.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Deo-A has other counters. Pretty much any weather sweeper destroys it, and really anything that can hit before it.

Weather Sweepers and Choice Scarfers? Yes. Anything that can hit before it (priority)? Maybe. It can't be Mach Punch though just for information since no Mach Punch short of Life Orb Technician Breloom can ohko even that because of resistance.

Life orb Technician Hitmontop, the second strongest Mach Punch does 71.9-85.12%. To a 50 base hp 20 base def Pokemon. Guts boosted Roopushin Punch does similar.

Still, nothing can switch in on it and it will take something out. If the weather isn't up, you'd have to be sacrificing either your weather user or another poke to even get the weather up to outspeed it. Same with Choice Scarfer, something will have to be sacrificed and if you send in something that is a Common Choice Scarfer, they'd switch to something else and send Deoxys in later to take something else out. Rain will be the trickiest one to get around for Deoxys, due to the high power sweepers there that makes switching in on them difficult since they're also very fast some of them (well, mainly Kingdra, the other ones Deoxys-A actually outruns unless it's Floatzel). Doryuzu has his own problems obviously and Sun is less common.

Not to be nitpicky, but Deoxys-A has no common counters (it does have a few, but not many and they're not really used at all). But then, the traditional definition of a counter had been thrown out a while back. This thing hits everything hard. Traditionally, a counter is something that can safely switch in on any of its moves and then easily ko back in however many moves as necessary without being killed back. You can't really switch into Deoxys-A so it is checked by Priority and those users, not countered. All it really does is force Deoxys out until later. Priority users are obvious and unless they're hitting super effectively on a Poke, priority moves tend to be pretty weak (like resisted Punches, etc). And if they're sending in something slower that would ordinarily not be able to survive a single shot of Deoxy's moves, either they're bluffing or they're a Choice Scarfer and more likely the latter.

The fact that Deoxys resists one of the most commonly abused priority moves with the widest spread is pretty dangerous since it will survive and kill back and will take down two pokes instead of one before dying.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

@Fluffy Otters

Sableye sucks. It has spinda defences. Actually with any EV spread spinda is bulkier on the speical side, lol

You'd be surprised at how hard to kill Sableye it would be with priority Taunt, Encore, Recover, Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, etc. It has Mischievious Heart and it can stall weak special attackers out. You obviously don't leave it on base 130 specs/Life Orbs but weaker special attacks from the likes of Vaporeon for example it will outstall easily. Having autospeed Recover, immune to pretty much all forms of priority (well, fighting and normal anyways), fast Will-O-Wisp to annoy physical peeps etc.

It will annoy things like Manaphy with an Encore it can't escape and any set up sweeper EASY.

Sableye also has much better stats than Spinda lol with that typing of no weaknesses.
Sableye can set up on Deoxy-A being immune to pretty much everything common it carries and leaving it only an unstabbed move that Sableye can stall out for eternity if Deoxys-A is carrying Life Orb until it kills itself unless they get lucky.

 

[shrang]

Spiritomb is actually a pretty decent check to Deoxys-A, since it's immune to Psycho Boost, Superpower AND Extremespeed, while able to OHKO Deoxys-A with Shadow Sneak or checkmate it with Pursuit. True, you'd be 2HKOed by some other random coverage attack, but it CAN switch in and put Deoxys-A in a 50/50 position (Either to switch and get nailed by Pursuit or stay in and risk getting killed by Shadow Sneak). If you switch in on an immune attack, you could pretty much click "Pursuit" and win 100% of the time.

 

[SlimMan]

Spiritomb is actually a pretty decent check to Deoxys-A, since it's immune to Psycho Boost, Superpower AND Extremespeed, while able to OHKO Deoxys-A with Shadow Sneak or checkmate it with Pursuit. True, you'd be 2HKOed by some other random coverage attack, but it CAN switch in and put Deoxys-A in a 50/50 position (Either to switch and get nailed by Pursuit or stay in and risk getting killed by Shadow Sneak). If you switch in on an immune attack, you could pretty much click "Pursuit" and win 100% of the time.

Once Sableye is released with MH, it could come in on an immune attack and priority Encore. It would force a switch on which Sableye could burn the incoming pokemon.

 

[IcyMan28]

Bulky steels also fare well against it. Jirachi, Metagross, Bronzong, and Nattorei can weather a 4 Atk LO Superpower (Nattorei just barely), and the former three can take a HP Fire and strike back to KO.

Scarf users and priority also help out against it I guess. I'm still on the fence about it, since it isn't like other hard-hitting threats where smart switching can help you out a bit. It WILL 2HKO the metagame at worst.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Timid Specs Palkia Hydro Pump in rain vs standard 4th gen Ubers Wobb: 92.61% - 109.09%. So yeah, you can survive about half the time. But yeah, Specs Kingdra does do 73.48% - 86.55% to 28/252+ Wobb, so it appears I just got a high damage roll. I guess it's just Kingdra's power I guess.

EDIT: If Deoxys-A is 2HKOing your Scizor with Psycho Boost + Extremespeed, you should probably try using a bulkier spread. Max SpA Naive Deoxys-A does 52.57% - 61.63% to the standard Ubers Scizor with Psycho Boost while Extremespeed does 25.98% - 30.82%. Yes, that is a possible (albeit unlikely) 2HKO after Stealth Rock, but if you run Leftovers with that or something, Scizor WILL live.

I like to theoretically gamble and just go for a second Psycho Boost because if they switch in the first one, they have a cripple Scizor and lots of things resist Bullet Punch. I mean, if you switch to a resist, they're going to lose they're Scizor for nothing. I might be overthinking this but knowing Bullet Punch ohkoes, wouldn't it be reasonable to expect that Deoxys-A in generally WOULD NOT risk it and instead flee so they use Pursuit instead to at least kill it on the switch? That way staying in will kill them. But then again, this would require a crafty (or not thinking/stupid) opponent to still Bullet Punch and try to hit it, despite being resisted by many types and they know you carry a trapper. And even if they kill, you made their Scizor near useless to take another strong hit and you can trap it.

Although with Stealth Rock, Psycho Boost+Extremespeed does ko of which I was not familiar. In which case that will be much less prediction chess psychoanalyzing.

 

[STEELDRAGON]

Bulky steels also fare well against it. Jirachi, Metagross, Bronzong, and Nattorei can weather a 4 Atk LO Superpower (Nattorei just barely), and the former three can take a HP Fire and strike back to KO.

Scarf users and priority also help out against it I guess. I'm still on the fence about it, since it isn't like other hard-hitting threats where smart switching can help you out a bit. It WILL 2HKO the metagame at worst.

I've been running a Bulky Chople Darkrai and it absolutely murders any Deoxys in sight. There are quite a few bulky pokemon that can take a hit and hit back for the OHKO.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Bulky steels also fare well against it. Jirachi, Metagross, Bronzong, and Nattorei can weather a 4 Atk LO Superpower (Nattorei just barely), and the former three can take a HP Fire and strike back to KO.

Scarf users and priority also help out against it I guess. I'm still on the fence about it, since it isn't like other hard-hitting threats where smart switching can help you out a bit. It WILL 2HKO the metagame at worst.

I guess the problem with the aforementioned bulky steels is that Deoxy-A can simply waltz out (except against Metagross Pursuit if it actually happened to be carrying that) and come in later while they go to a steel resist and then you still have a really strong Deoxys-A to fear later who can do heavy damage to something else. After taking heavy damage the first time, some of these will have a problem coming in a second time without dying and can be trapped by Magnezone/Shandera.

 

[XienZo]

And even if they kill, you made their Scizor near useless to take another strong hit and you can trap it.

All of this would still happen if you used Pursuit, since you opponent gets a free-switch in altogether if you succesfully Pursuit a fleeing Deoxys, whereas Bullet Punch would still break Sturdy and dent a little.

I mean, if you fail to KO with either move, an outpredicted Pursuit would kill your Scizor outright, whereas an outpredicted Bullet Punch would just put it in an unfavorable match-up, but still alive.

Pursuiting runs into the same problems as Bullet Punching except even worse.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

I've been running a Bulky Chople Darkrai and it absolutely murders any Deoxys in sight. There are quite a few bulky pokemon that can take a hit and hit back for the OHKO.

'Cus Darkrai is running a Chople Berry (which is actually a really good idea that I never thought of by the way) so of course it would survive Superpower. But what spread are you using because unless Darkrai switches in on Psycho Boost/comes in after something is dead, Super Power+Some attack will kill you.

But I wouldn't call that bulky (but Darkrai can survive a number of Mach Punches even without Chople which is amazing). What else can stand to take a hit that won't be outrun, switched on for later, won't be 2 hit koed, etc? It survives Mach Punches and most of the common walls are afraid of Deoxys and it takes lesser used-ish pokes to generally beat him (Metagross, Spiritomb, etc. When was the last time Metagross was seen? It has sadly almost vanished it seems like to me).

 

[IcyMan28]

I guess the problem with the aforementioned bulky steels is that Deoxy-A can simply waltz out (except against Metagross Pursuit if it actually happened to be carrying that) and come in later while they go to a steel resist and then you still have a really strong Deoxys-A to fear later who can do heavy damage to something else. After taking heavy damage the first time, some of these will have a problem coming in a second time without dying and can be trapped by Magnezone/Shandera.

Your point stands, but then the opponent has the considerable task of safely bringing Deoxys back into the match.

I'm not saying these are surefire counters, but they are good pokemon that can function in addition to checking Deoxys. Metagross can CB/Agility/Tank, Jirachi has Wish/Stealth Rock/Insert Utility Move, OTR Bronzong is a menace, and Nattorei has hazards/Thunder Wave. They constitute a few ways to deal with it at least currently.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

I still feel that Deoxys-A is a bit too powerful really to remain OU but that is just my opinion. Deoxys-A could always come in after something dies (but there is a problem of weather sweepers and Choice Scarf then unless they're weakned. But if your opponent has nothing to outrun it, Deoxys-A will tear them apart easily).

Trick Room would be scary so Brongzong is good. Metagross will get locked in if you have Magnezone or Shandera and unless it's carrying Pursuit, Deoxys will run. As far as I can tell, Metagross usage has mainly fallen by the wayside (Doruzu, lots of steel resist, kind of slow and Doryuzu's just better speed and attack, etc). Metagross is still a fine pokemon. But it just seems to not be used much anymore (interesting because it also is a good switch in to Latios). Jirachi won't like to meet Magnezone/Shandera/Garchomp/something. Nattorei is a risky switch in and can only safely come in after Deoxy-A has killed something and will still fear Hp Fire since Psycho Boost+Super Power kills, 2 Super Power kills, Extremespeed+Super Power kills if it switches in. And if it tries to Spike, it will only get one layer in and will die. Thunderwave would be a bigger problem as would it attacking you but still, Deoxy isn't as afraid of it as it would be of some other thing like Metagross if it would evershow up, revenge Scizor (and not switching in on Psycho Boost), Spirtomb, Brongzong, etc.

 

[STEELDRAGON]

'Cus Darkrai is running a Chople Berry (which is actually a really good idea that I never thought of by the way) so of course it would survive Superpower. But what spread are you using because unless Darkrai switches in on Psycho Boost/comes in after something is dead, Super Power+Some attack will kill you.

But I wouldn't call that bulky (but Darkrai can survive a number of Mach Punches even without Chople which is amazing). What else can stand to take a hit that won't be outrun, switched on for later, won't be 2 hit koed, etc? It survives Mach Punches and most of the common walls are afraid of Deoxys and it takes lesser used-ish pokes to generally beat him (Metagross, Spiritomb, etc. When was the last time Metagross was seen? It has sadly almost vanished it seems like to me).

The spread I'm running is 252 HP/40 SpD/216 Spe, though you should those 40 Evs into Def. It has about the bulk of Lead Machamp, It take a powerful hit If it needs to. some scarfed Steels, such Jirachi can easily switch in and OHKO with U-turn or Iron head. Specially Defensive Metagross is one of the best counters in the game for Deoxys-A. It can put it in Checkmate, threaten it with Pursuit or beat it with Bullet Punch.

 

[JSND]

The problem with dory is not dory himself imo.
Its the fact that dory and his friends(name it things like Terra, Rando etc) has great synergy with pokemon that handle their checks very well making removing them easier.
Also their summoner is still arguably the best.
Rain maybe the safe reliable option due to the oh so good water typing
but, the power that sandstorm has is just awesome.

 

[Wafflez]

Yah im agreeing Deoxys is somewhat too broken for the current metagame but I still think it should be given another chance.Unlike the other suspects it actually does have a decent amount of Checks and Counters.

Ive found it to be the easiest to play around out of all the suspects.Maybe im just biased because i dont think i have ever made a team without him as my lead but i think an outright bann on him is somewhat illogical.Well anyway after thinking this through for a while here are my noms..
Darkrai
Manaphy
Shaymin-S
Inconsistence
Im not gona waste my time with reasoning on why they should be banned because we've already been through that in the last 50 pages of this thread.

 

[pastorofmuppets]

Is that a banlist lacking Wobbuffet?
Methinks it is. Maybe there really is a Santa Claus.

 

[November Blue]

Alright, I had some time to ladder before, and I've reached 1300. The test period ends tomorrow right? Hopefully I can reach the required amount in time.

Has the official qualifying rating been announced yet?

I had a look in policy review, but there's nothing there.

 

[Sir Azelf]

Wob is kinda shitty now too imo with its own Encore being nerfed. So many times has it fucked me when its worn off after 3 turns. I mean its still "good" but its never changed any games for me like it did last gen, since its harder to abuse several strategies like Tickle.

Anyway;

Skymin
Darkrai
Inconsistent
Deoxys-A
Deoxys-N
Manaphy

^ Would be the better ban candidates imo. When these go the meta might be a little less horribad lol. Anyway this has been discussed to death so its pointless to just list the broken crap. I just really cant wait to get this phaze of the metagame over and the voting with so i can start playing properly.

Once Sableye is released with MH, it could come in on an immune attack and priority Encore. It would force a switch on which Sableye could burn the incoming pokemon.

Pretty sure Sableye doesn't get Encore.

 

[j99ubers]

On the first page Phil said that the rating required would be 1500. That being said only two people have reached that rating so it may be more likely that it will be 1400 or maybe 1450.

Wob is kinda shitty now too imo with its own Encore being nerfed. So many times has it fucked me when its worn off after 3 turns. I mean its still "good" but its never changed any games for me like it did last gen. :/

Wobb's job this gen isn't so much in allowing others free set up (although he still does this well) its to allow your team to remove the opponents choice scarfers to allow your fast,powerful sweepers to clean up. It still does that better than any pokemon in the game.